THE San Francisco Giants Blog

Bullpen thoughts

Posted in Uncategorized by ewisco on August 14, 2012

I confess I didn’t watch much of last night’s game after the 3rd inning. So when I saw the final score, I figured the bullpen had collapsed as well. Which, surprisingly, didn’t much bug me. I assumed Penny and Kontos and or Hensley had tossed some gas on the fire. But these aren’t the guys who are going to win us a championship. To win this thing, the big four is going to have to do the heavy lifting. Romo and Casilla from the right and Affeldt and Lopez from the left should be plenty. To be successful, the starters are going to have to go at least 6, so four pitchers after that point should be sufficient. The question becomes then, can we get to the post-season with Penny, Kontos, Hensley and Mijares?

A shout out to the immortal Johnny Pesky. Apparently a great guy who would talk to anyone at length about baseball. There will always be a Pesky’s Pole, which is just one of the coolest honors ever. Forget the plaques, name a foul pole after me!

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  1. willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:03 am

    casilla was still a little wild last night, over throwing a couple fastballs and he left one up and out enough for chad tracy to whack a double down LF line. Curve looked good. He has had the blister issue, so it will be interesting to see how much bochy uses him, and when. I’m sure he still feels like he can close. Hmmmn.
    Lopez romo affeldt is solid group, so let’s see how bochy handles closer by committee. If he and Rags can make this work, it will be quite a coup. Another RHP I would guess comes up, tho I’m not sure who that would be, to get possible set up work. I think that’s still a little out of Kontos’ reach right now.
    Vogs has been one of the rocks so far—let’s see someone else pick him up and go deep in the game this week. And uh, next week too– 3 at the Latrine and 4 here vs. ATL.

  2. Nipper said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:17 am

    Lets just win the division. It’s sad when the pitching is not up to the task. I felt sorry for people who sat threw that one at the Park.

    • chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:24 am

      My daughter and her boyfriend were at the game last night. Ouch.

  3. chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:22 am

    What an ugly game. Agree with Willie re: Affeld, Lopez and Romo are all solid. My concern is more with the middle/long relief. Kontos numbers are good (2.33/1.15 ERA/WHIP). But he got roughed-up a bit on Sunday (game I was at), and Hensley is suspect. Loux, Penny, etc….none of them inspire confidence for me.

    So while our bullpen was once THE bullpen, I don’t think it is “fully loaded” and ready for battle with the likes of Cincy, the Nats, Bucs, etc.

    I still think this team has what it takes to win the West, and I think they will. But once in the post-season, I am unsure the Giants match-up well. Our record against other potential play-off clubs is sub .500, overall. I think Atlanta may be the only club in that group (Nats, Cincy, Bucs, Cards, etc.) that the club has a winning record against (maybe the Cards).

    For long-term (post-season) success, Cain, Mad, and Vogey must be nails most times out, and then you need some consistent starts from either Tim or Zito that regularly gives the club a chance to win. This and the bullpen needs to get to lock-down again.

  4. willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:45 am

    How a pen will hold up in stretch drive is anyone’s guess. Look what happened to Venters and Papelbon last year, as chronicled so deftly by our own PK. I’m really interested to see how other mgrs. like donny two trips, matheny, f-gonzalez and nats and pirates guys handle it, since it will be new experience for them. Out of all of them I think bochy and rags are tops—but they’re not the ones with the ball in their hands.
    Btw, Nipper’s last post from last night thread sums up last night experience well enough to be POTD imo.

  5. Alleykat said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Man that was some “Asskicking”last night.Any chance we can do the same to Zimmerman and get Vogy his ERA lead title back?

  6. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Yeah, they just need the lesser guys to take care of shit until the playoffs get here to keep the big guns rested. . Kontos IS the best of the lesser guys right now, but someone else has to get going. Everyone else is pretty much in the same boat, though.

    Got fricking Zimmerman tonight. Bummie needs to bring his game.

    • Alleykat said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:01 am

      Hey Chuck,How did your fishing trip at Packer Lake with your son go?,ketch a stringer full of trout?

      • unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:31 am

        Didn’t catch anything, but we got out there late. We went dirtbiking up near the buttes from like 10 to 2 and went fishing later that day. Some kid there caught 15 fish in the morning . . .

        Wrong color powerbait apparently. Lots o’fun . . . We ended up at Goose Lake because Haven Lake and Snag lake (and Sardine, Packer, and Gold Lake) were packed. I found the last free campground in the area. It was a bitch getting into it with the bike hauler on the back of my durango. . .

      • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 12:21 pm

        sounds like a true improptue day away. I love the Buttes. Used to have a house in Grass Valley and could sit on the porch and look out across the valley at the Buttes. Lots of fun in that part of the state.

  7. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:21 am

    If the Giants do make the postseason, isn’t it likely that one of their starters goes to the pen rather than being de-activated a la Zito in 2010?

    • unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:33 am

      Timmy? Hah! They won’t do Timmy or Bubbles so Vogey would be the one.

      • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:48 am

        Yeah, Zito will be rewarded with a slot for what he has done thus far (regardless of what happens the rest of the year . . . Umm, belay that last part of my comment. Ha.). Agree also with Timmy being on the roster too. If Vogey has a string of performances similar to last night, then yeah, I agree with ya Chuck he is on the outside looking in.

  8. ewisco said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:43 am

    Actually wasn’t timmy one of the guys in the game against philly where sanchez blew it? was there another?

    • unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:09 am

      Yeah. He didn’t do well at all in that relief role. The next guy got a DP or something.

  9. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:53 am

    So far, the Nats are dominating SF in 4 of 4. There’s no sugar coating it. Maybe SF can win 1 of the next 2, but 2 of 2 is not in the cards. Who knows what could happen in the post season, but a matchup with the Nats looks like a loser. BTW, the Giants would be out of the wildcards right now if they don’t win the division. There is no guarantee at all the Giants will make the playoffs. The main thing to me is that bullpen is very scary right now. Only Romo, Affeldt and Lopez are reliable. Mijares looks OK, still an unknown. Kontos is decent, but up and down, a work in progress. Casilla is a total questionmark and looks like a head case, uh blister problem. Hensley and Penny are certified 89 and 91 octane gas cans, respectively. This Pen is nowhere near the shut down Pen of 2010. If Pence and Pablo can hit, then the Pen problem gets less critical…

    • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 12:59 pm

      right now the Giants are near 70% to win the west. Nats have the best record in MLB, they came on strong this year with Gio and Morse and Clippard. La Roach has gotten hot and home grown pitcher Zimmerman having the best year of his career. They ARE a strong team. But facing teams for a league playoff in October is an unknown for a few more weeks.

  10. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Well, as much as this team is built around pitching, if they don’t hit they don’t go anywhere. End of story. They score in bunches on the road but they also go quiet. As someone said, they do much better when getting an early lead. Duh, but it’s patently obvious with this team that they don’t come back very well. Or very much.

    If Pence gets into some kind of form and Panda comes back and finds his stroke, they should be fine. Scooter and the Riot can play interchangeable IFers and Arias goes back to the bench. Pagan needs to keep setting the table. Leadoff is imperative with this team as Cabrera and Posey are hitting lights-out. Throw Panda and Pence, and they CAN hopefully get nice rallies going.

  11. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Sure, they can take the next 2. They throttled the Cardinals pretty well on the road for a couple games.

    Their strategy last night was to tire them out with all those swings.

    The old rope-a-dope.

  12. Salty said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:18 am

    I’m feeling a bit pessimistic about their chances of going deep or getting to the playoffs without a top closer. Just feel all the other guys are best suited for supporting roles.

    Greatly encouraged with Belt hitting .438 in Aug, but no hr’s since June 23rd. Last yr he hit 7 from Aug 14 on, so maybe we’re in for a power explosion. Pablo returning has to help, but …he may have some rust.

  13. chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:26 am

    On a separate, but baseball-realted note, how ’bout that little ol’ team from Petaluma in the LL World Series? I think their next game is Thursday at noon.

    And on Loo’s comment about number of starters in the post-season. I don’t see them de-activating a guy as they did with Zito in 2010. If we get there, will be interesting to see who is “pen-bound.”

  14. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:32 am
      Flemm last night said Pablo looked to be limping a bit after his 9th inning AB. He better be fully recovered. If he goes down again ala Kemp with a recurring hammy, the season is pretty much done. I’m optimistic about Pence, he’s got to start hitting better soon, can’t be much worse. He’s hit some shots right at people, and his pressure level should fall as Pablo gets back in gear….
  15. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:43 am

    As far as Pablo goes, he needs to start acting as an adult. It’s cool that he’s got a good vibe in the dugout, but some more adult action on his part would be nice. Like getting in and staying in shape. It’s been said more by more and more people lately, because it’s true, and it’s time. This guy has been in MLB now for 3+ years. He’s got a big contract. At minimum, pro athletes should be in shape. Maybe they don’t perform for whatever reason, like getting older or having a bad year, or their mistress is pissed at ‘em. But, there should never be a question that the player is not in game, top physical shape. Nowadays with all the training and nutrition help that is available, being out of shape, especially during the season, is inexcusable. I may forget from time to time, but I’m not calling him Panda anymore until he gets his act together…

  16. blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:43 am

    I’ve been meaning to weigh in on Hunter Pence. Personally, I am happy the Giants were able to get him for the proverbial “song.” However, long term, I hope they do not resign him. I really dislike his swing. CBS Fantasy BB articulates it much better than I (by the by, this is dated 1/5/12):

    “At first glance, everything about Hunter Pence’s 2011 season — from his career-high .314 batting average to the king’s ransom that landed him in Philadelphia at the trade deadline — would lead you to believe he’s on the cusp of elite status in Fantasy. And yes, it’s possible the 28-year-old’s best is still ahead of him, especially since his batting average only improved with the move to Philadelphia, where he hit as many homers (11) in 207 at-bats as he had in 399 at-bats with the Astros. But before you decide he’s the second coming of Matt Holliday and invest a third-round pick in him, take a second look at the peripherals. Pence’s strikeout rate was one of the highest of his career, which means he added 30 points to his batting average by making less contact. Saying he benefited from good luck would be an oversimplification — perhaps he decided he didn’t need to swing for the fences as much anymore, and naturally, a move to a deeper lineup would take some of the pressure off — but the point is the secret of his success is hardly an open-and-shut case. As a second outfielder, he’s fine. As anything more, he has the potential to disappoint.”

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 12:26 pm

      Blade, I’m not doing handsprings on this guy. But, he can hit HRs out of any park. If he can hit near .275 with 22 or 25 HRs a year, I’m taking it, along with a pretty good RF defense. The Giants desperately need more power, and history suggests he supplies some….

      • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 12:40 pm

        Snarkk, does his contract run out this year? No idea if he was signed long term in Philly and we picked up that deal or he is a free agent next year. If he is a free agent, I am down with a reasonable long term contract. However, these guys from Philly kill the ball in that band box and then they expect to be rewarded like Saudi sheiks (see Rowand’s contract; and the initial contract demands of Victorino and Rollins).

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 12:43 pm

        He’s supposedly arb eligible for next year, so the Giants have him under control and he should be here in 2013…

      • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 12:47 pm

        Also, he isn’t Nate – sorry Nate acolytes – so that’s something.

  17. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Chi, no one’s saying a starter will get deacivated. What they are saying is that a starter (most likely Vogey) will get pushed into the bullpen.

    • chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 12:30 pm

      Yeah, I know Chuck…I was just saying that that is certainly a possibility (more a probability), but also saying I don’t see them leaving one of the starters off as they did with Zito in 2010 (confirming what Loo had said…I agree).

  18. chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Blade/snarkk – Yes, Pence is AE next year. He is signed this year for 10.4 mil. Philly signed him to that (avoided arbitration). Arbitration numbers were 9/11.8, so they split the difference.

    RE: his stats and playing in bandbox parks. He has actually done well even when away from Houston or Philly.

    For his time in Houston and Philly, he had 1660 PAs and hit .272 (Philly) and .300 (Houston). He has 64 HRs in those parks (54 in Houston and 10 in Philly).

    Lifetime – 3597 PA, .287 with 132 HRs.

    So, he has hit for average and power equally well on the road as opposed to playing in Houston and Philly.

    I’m guessing he gets 12-13 next year either through negotiations with the Giants or through the arbitration process.

  19. chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Sabean has said they have the coin to pay Pence and go after Melky on a long-term deal. Will be interesting. If Melky stays hot these last couple of months, there are going to be a lot of suitors.

  20. Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    I agree there are some question marks in the bullpen and that may become a problem but the question I have about last night game is, where was the infield? We’re allowed to play guys at those positions so why we just kept the batting practice screens out there and just a first baseman , I don’t know. Theriot looked like he was playing soccer out there the way he tried to not touch the ball(all though the slide kick of the ball was given a nine by the German judges). Arias, bad jumps left him flailing away at balls that I think a shortstop should get to. Although Scutero made a good play, the one down the line he should have had and that one left a scar. Really I would have scored half those infield hits as errors.
    That to me killed us more than Penny, who just took whatever gas he had left and through it on the infield bonfire.

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:00 pm

      Let’s just say it was a bad game all around.
      Shit happens.
      Usually against good opponents…

      • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:16 pm

        Yes it was a bad game all around. If you give any team an additional three outs an inning you’re going to lose. A good opponent may beat you 14 – 2 a lesser team may only beat you 5 – 2, but you’re still going to lose.
        My point is the bullpen didn’t lose last nights game, the infield did.
        And if anyone has any excuses for the little league infield play, I’d love to hear them.

  21. TedSpe said, on August 14, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    Ron (Horseshack) Palillo passed away. Geez, that’s the 2nd Sweathog to die this year

  22. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    This is good stuff on nominee for worst defensive play of the year. Even better that it’s the A’s, and inflicted by notable turd Pyrshitski….

    http://deadspin.com/5934255/is-this-the-worst-play-in-the-history-of-baseball-aj-pierzynski-scores-from-first-on-a-groundout

    • chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm

      That is fucking laughable…Baseball’s version of the Keystone Cops…on steroids.

  23. chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    I agree…the infield certainly did not help. Sure, a lot of those balls were hit hard, but a few of them I felt were playable. Earlier I talked about short/long relief as potential issues. Well, Penny certainly added fuel to the fire there. I thought he might be that guy who could provide a spot-start or some long relief, but am less convinced all the time. When is Mota available? I know Sabes has said that ship has sailed, but…

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:04 pm

      As far as I’m concerned, I’ll take Mota sight unseen over Penny.
      I find it unfathomable that there isn’t a better arm than Penny right now in Fresno or Richmond.
      Not one? How is that even freakin’ possible?…

      • Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:09 pm

        Yeah, with or without ‘roids I’d take Mota over Penny just for the clubhouse influence. Am I crazy to think that Mota is back on Thr juice for one last MLB swan song? Think about it, he could probably give a shit about a lifetime ban. And if he just spent the dough and was smart about it, he could probably mask this cycle no problem…

  24. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Yeah, juice right after the suspension, and it should be cycled out by the time he’s ready to join the club.

    I don’t know if they test guys while on suspension. Given how the MLBPA worked this shit out, I doubt it.

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:16 pm

      Just make sure the test bottle goes to the UPS guy on a late Sat night so he has to hold it in his basement fridge til Monday morning…

  25. chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Mota – suspended May 8…if my math is right, he would be eligible again on around the 23rd…about the time the Braves hit town…

    • DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:06 pm

      Hate to think we’re hanging our hats on that one, Chi…

      • chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:34 pm

        Not hanging my hat on anything, Loo…just think that he could potentially be an upgrade over either Hensley or Penny. Bottom line, I think there are a couple of spots in the BP that could stand an upgrade.

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:42 pm

        Definitely could use an upgrade for those two. Hence my comment on how I don’t understand that nobody in the farm system is seen as qualified to come up and throw. Nobody. I might, might get the argument that they need vets for pressure games, but that goes out the window with the recent suckage performances of these two. Wasn’t it the Mets announcers that somebody here said they thought Hensley was minor league quality? On Sept 1, we’ll see if they bring any arms up. If they don’t, we’ll know the system is empty of decent arms…

  26. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    BTW, the late Mr. Pesky (pole) hit a grand total of 5 home runs at Fenway Park…

  27. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    I’ll not speak ill of the dead.
    That said, Pesky’s career numbers, granted he missed 3 prime years for WWII, are good, but fairly pedestrian in some ways. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/peskyjo01.shtml So being a good to OK player, I doubt he gets as much pub for being a good guy and fan favorite if he’s on another team, except maybe the Yanks. If he’s on the Tigers or the Pirates or the Senators, does anybody know who he was outside of that fanbase? I’ve heard of him before, but only because of the inordinate amount of blather we get about east coast teams. And, he was only a RSoxer for a little more than half of his MLB career, then became somehow an icon with them afterwards as a coach and sorta ambassador. Who would be the Giants equivalent? I’m not sure, because I’m not sure what Pesky meant to the RSox nation, and I’m not at all sorry I don’t know, since it’s not something I should know anyway. I think Will Clark is probably just as beloved by Giants fans as Pesky is by the RSox crowd, and Thrill was a helluva lot better ballplayer. If Clark played for the RSox, he might even have had a shot at the HOF and they could have named an executive bathroom after him — the Will Whizzer…

    • TedSpe said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:23 pm

      Well, his initials *are* W.C.

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:28 pm

        You British?… ;)

      • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:45 pm

        Didn’t he also drive race cars and sell motor oil?

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:47 pm

        Ted or Pesky?…

      • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:12 pm

        he was funny in the ‘Fields’

  28. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    I got curious. I looked up Will Clark’s career numbers. I had forgotten how good they are.
    BA .303
    HRs 284
    OPS .880
    Yeah, .880 OPS. That’s pretty dang good. And, I though his BA was in the .280s somewhere. Nope. Over .300. That’s some good stuff right there…

    • Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:55 pm

      I’ve got every WIll Clark stat burned into my soul.
      I’ve mentioned it before, but with Melky headed towards his 2nd straight 200+ hit season, how weird is it that Clark never had 200 hits in a season. I think the most he had was 196 but that’s from the burned stats on my soul. Not certain that’s correct….

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:11 pm

        Yep, 196, checked it.
        In his last season, 2000. he had an OPS of 1.018 with the Cards over 171 ABs.
        I don’t remember why the Giants let him go after ’93. Clubhouse issues with Bonds? And, money, I assume…
        In ’94, he had an OPS of .932 with Texas…

  29. ewisco said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    lineup courtesy of baggs:

    1) Angel Pagan (CF)
    2) Marco Scutaro (2B)
    3) Melky Cabrera (LF)
    4) Buster Posey (C)
    5) Pablo Sandoval (3B)
    6) Hunter Pence (RF)
    7) Brandon Belt (1B)
    8) Brandon Crawford (SS)
    9) Madison Bumgarner (P)

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:31 pm

      Right now, that’s about as good as it gets for a starting SF lineup. Unless maybe put Theriot at 2nd and Scutaro at SS, but Theriot’s bat has been more than iffy, so probably a wash. Zimmerman is nails, so they better have their hittin’ spikes on…

      • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:49 pm

        Zimmermann is 4-0 with a 1.54 ERA and 0.857 WHIP in 35 innings pitched since the All-Star break. He was 5-6 with a 2.61 ERA and 1.124 WHIP in the first half. “Nails,” plus a sledge hammer.

  30. Salty said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    I’ll predict a HR from Belt tonight. Preferably with a couple on base.

    • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:14 pm

      married or civil partnership?

  31. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    Schulman makes an argument for Belt to hit second. http://blog.sfgate.com/giants/2012/08/14/sf-giants-manager-bruce-bochy-should-bat-brandon-belt-second/
    Actually, it’s worth thinking about. But, I’d let him go a few more weeks with hopefully more success before I’d switch him up. He gets on base, for sure. And, for a big dude, he can motor, which is a good thing ahead of the 3 and 4 hole guys. It might mean Pence would get a bit fewer decent pitches to hit, but I’m not so sure, since he’s such a free swinger anyway….

    • Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 3:57 pm

      I don’t really care if the power isn’t there—at least he’s doing something other than walk or strike out. That was getting very old. He’s getting base hits and that should be enough, theoretically, with Pablo and Posey on base in front of him…..

  32. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    Frigging Pence better get some consistency. He’s becoming a bit tiresome. Or he’s about to. He’s on the fringe of being a waste of effort.

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:13 pm

      He’s been very consistent.
      No hits in 47 out of 55 Giant ABs…

  33. Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Red Sox are in Full Implosion 2012. Apparently their stars are going to management to say they want *The V* out. Here are some things I don’t understand about this situation:
    1) I knew Valentine would fail, he’s a self serving-look at me guy. I’ve been a little surprised at how spectacularly he has failed…..How can management still support this guy even after the players have abandoned his *ship*.?
    2) Why do they players think they have any leverage at all in this? They are coming off one of the great scandals of the last 10 years or so. For them to openly stop following Valentine suggests that he might be one of the worst managers in the history of the game. And if that’s the case then I still don’t see how management can continue to staunchly support him.
    I’ve also humorously enjoyed the failure of the Angels this year. Between them and the Sox that’s approximately 325 million dollars of payroll failure (at least measured by wins and losses, I have no doubt that both teams are still making a lot of dough)……..

    • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:29 pm

      so a manager is so bad that:
      a) the players are tanking on purpose.
      b) the managers *style* has caused good players to fail.
      c) the manager has ‘managed’ so as to lose games. (in which case your 2b point is well taken)
      all less likely than:
      d) the manager does not make outs or hit the ball, the players do that.

  34. Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    looks like Texas gave Thrill a 5 year/26 million dollar deal (close to that, I just quickly added it up).
    Chump change today but apparently enough to scare the Giants off. I think owners probably saw the writing on the wall with the impending strike and didn’t want to hand out to many big deals going into ’94

    • DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:29 pm

      Will should’ve had a much better career. He let himself get out of shape at a young age…

  35. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Just for the Helluvit.
    Career OPS, in descending order:

    Ruth 1.164
    Teddy Ballgame 1.116
    Gehrig 1.080
    Barry Bonds 1.051
    Hank Greenberg 1.017
    DiMaggio 0.977
    Mantle 0.977
    Stan the Man 0.976
    Mel Ott 0.947
    Cobb 0.945
    Mays 0.941
    Aaron 0.928
    Mike Piazza 0.922
    Griffey, Jr. 0.907
    Stretch 0.889
    Stargell 0.889
    Jackie 0.883
    Will Clark 0.880
    Buster Posey 0.869
    Roy Campanella 0.860
    Honus Wagner 0.858
    Jack Clark 0.854
    Billy Williams 0.853
    Cepeda 0.849
    Yastrzemski 0.841
    Bobby Bonds 0.824
    Boog Powell 0.822
    Rickey Henderson 0.820
    Johnny Bench 0.817
    Barry Larkin 0.815
    Lee May 0.772
    Johnnie LeMaster 0.566

    • DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:50 pm

      You omitted several thousand players…

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:53 pm

        Your turn…

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:01 pm

        Here a link to the top 1000. At least half way there. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/onbase_plus_slugging_career.shtml
        If you look into the top 50, there are some surprises in there, I think. And, that won’t guarantee you a HOF statue. The Thrill is in the top 100. That’s pretty rare air IMO…

      • DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:04 pm

        Well, you left out the ‘z’ in Yastrzemski, but you made up for it nicely by capitalizing the ‘M’ in LeMaster…

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:07 pm

        No I didn’t… ;)

    • Nipper said, on August 14, 2012 at 4:53 pm

      Thank you Snarkk.

      • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:16 pm

        Yes, thank you snarkk. It must have taken at least an hour or so, typing out all those numerals, as well as getting everyone’s name correct. ;-)

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:28 pm

        Blade, about 20 min, really. But, I learned some things and it was cool.
        Weird how DiMaggio and his famous successor the Mick had the exact same OPS.
        And, Stretch and Stargell of the same era and intimidation factor and first basemen, also had the same OPS. I would not have thought Jack Clark’s was that high. Ruth and Teddy Ballgame’s numbers are mind boggling. Barry’s numbers, too. If they would have pitched to Barry at all those last few years, he would have gone to #1 on the list as his slugging would have gone through the roof instead of just getting all those intentional BBs …

  36. Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    I’m probably in the minority but I don’t value Babe Ruth’s stats much. He didn’t play against black players or international players. And until 1931 all you had to do was bounce a ball over the fence to have it count as a home run.
    Playing against a bunch of fat, drunk white players and bouncing his home runs over the fence doesn’t stand out to me when you look at the history of the game…….

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:38 pm

      I agree it’s hard to compare the eras before and after Jackie broke the color barrier. You could argue that Ted Williams numbers are the most legit of the top 10 since he did play the majority of his 22 years after the color barrier was broken. But, Ruth played partly in the end of the dead ball era, too, and his play signaled the end of it. I think even after the color barrier break there weren’t a lot of black pitchers in post-integration MLB, and now they’re still not many with the decline of the black players in MLB. There had to be a lot more great pitchers in the Negro Leagues beyond Satchell, but they didn’t translate into major leaguers that much, probably due to lingering racism. There’s probably a good article or even a book out there on that, but I don’t know it…

      • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:35 pm

        Pawlie: that book idea is copyrighted: snarkk’s midnight reads®

    • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:43 pm

      Nah, I think you would be surprised with how many people agree with you. You can cite every American sport as well. For example, do you think George “white bread” Mikan, also known as Mr. Basketball would make an NBA team today, much less win the MVP, 7 championships, numerous All star teams? The dude probably wouldn’t make 2nd string on a Division 1 college team. Same thing with all football players prior to the 1960s. I discount most of professional baseball played prior to the 1950s, insofar as stats are concerned.

  37. Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    On Saturday, I completed a 6 player deal in the Flap fantasy league that netted me Middlebrooks, Kuroda and Ogando. MIddlebrooks broke his wrist the day the trade went through and today I intentionally left Kuroda on my bench against the tough Texas LU and he is, of course, throwing a no hitter through 6.

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:51 pm

      Go ahead, predict a Giants loss tonight, and we should be golden…

    • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:37 pm

      and we thought Kev was having problems

  38. blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    Sounds like my day yesterday Flav – I decided to start “Lights out” Mike Fiers against the Rockies. My intuition was on red fucking alert that his run couldn’t last, but I decided to start him anyway. Fuck me. By the second inning, he had allowed 8 runs . . . sigh. Frickin’ Ed caught passed me in ERA and I was lucky not to lose a point in WHIP too.

  39. blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    I was thinking about Flav’s post on Ruth and all players that played in that era. I remember doing book reports in the late 1960s and more times than not, I would do a book report on a baseball player from that era, e.g., Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, Ott, Reese, etc. Back then, we didn’t have access to the internet, much less any information that wasn’t “homogenized” and spin dried through a myopic culture, that ensured drinking, drugging, womanizing, racism, etc., was excised from newspapers and book biographies. Consequently, my book reports would usually emphasize the following:

    1. How Cobb was a very nice man.

    2. How Cobb was the fastest man ever to play the game.

    3. How Ruth and Mantle were practically choir boys.

    Uhh huh. :-)

    • TedSpe said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:13 pm

      I don’t know. I grew up knowing Cobb was an asshole (though I didn’t know he was a major league bigot until I was older) and knowing Ruth and Mantle were both heavy partiers. But the thing with Ruth, at least for me, is it was such a different era at the beginning of his hitting career that simply by comparing what he achieved to his peers at that time *still* make his achievements pretty fucking phenomenal

      • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:20 pm

        Well, my school library didn’t have access to that Cobb bio. :-)

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:18 pm

      Hey, Mantle was a good singer.
      The Mick, Whitey Ford, Billy Martin — the Jack Daniels trio…

  40. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    Before they remodeled the old Yankee Stadium in ’74, the RF wall was literally about 3 feet high and I think 296 down the line. I remember Frank Robinson diving into the first row and disappearing from view for a full minute before climbing out with the ball. They called the guy out (Roy White?) Houk rightfully went berserk.

    • Alleykat said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:35 pm

      So what was Ralph Houk bitching about Loo? Totally legal ketch by Frank then falling in the stands.He should of been pissed with the short walls in the OF park.You know even today,i think both Dodger Stadium,RF and LF lines have that same short porch,along with Fenway down the RF corner as well.Players can still make those ketches and fall in the stand and save a HR.

  41. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    And here’s the article:

    http://tinyurl.com/dxhv9u5

    • blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:19 pm

      The article mentions fans so incensed after the catch, that they lit firecrackers. Today, if a firecracker is lit in a stadium . . . The bomb squad, FBI and military SEALS are notified, entire stadium is evacuated, the President is contacted, and F-16s are sent on sorties around the stadium. :-)

      • DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:30 pm

        Until Giuliani put a stop to it in the 90′s, people would start lighting off their 4th of July shit for weeks leading up to it. Anytime, anywhere…

  42. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    It baffles me a bit why there aren’t more balls hit off the RF wall at ATT, at only 309 feet, for doubles and triples. The Green Monster at Fenway is essentially the same distance…

    • Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:25 pm

      I don’t get that either. K/K always talked about Bonds being the only guy who could consistently keep it straight down that line, everyone else seems to hit it foul. No idea why….

  43. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    The days of the dead pull hitter are over…

  44. Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Ruth had some pretty good pitching stats to go along with the batting ones. And, like Ted mentioned, I think one year when he led the league in HRs the next guy had like three or something like that.
    The dude become a hero, so a lot of folks won’t let it go. They say he did it all eating hot dogs and drinking beer. Bullshit. Ruth had weight problems and I think cocaine was legal in diet supplements at the time (not to mention Coca Cola) and if it wasn’t it was still available. The Mick took that mystery shot in 61 that he got some abscess on his ass or something, early steroids? Who knows, the thing is there is a large group of people still pissed at Maris for breaking Ruth’s single season record and pissed that it wasn’t Mantle. There is also still a number of folks pissed that Aaron beat Ruth’s lifetime record (don’t even get those folks started on Bonds). Cobb on the other hand probably only has fans living in my neck of the woods.
    If Ruth and Cobb had to play in a league with Josh Gibson and Cool Papa Bell, I doubt either would have been considered top dogs.

    • Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:05 pm

      The influence of the Latin players can’t be underestimated either……

      • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:20 pm

        Very true.

  45. Alleykat said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Whitey Ford:( sotto voce,to Mickey Mantle)
    This guy died and nobody told him.
    Commissioner Ford Frick:
    As I stand here this afternoon,it is impossible not to think of the Babe,not to feel his presence here even now.He was more then a ballplayer.He was everything that is special about America.
    Mickey Mantle:(sotto voce,to Whitey)
    I bet I got more pussy than he did.

  46. Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    I’m staying fairly confident for tonight’s game, and the next one. The first 3 Washington got to play us in 100 degree heat and last night’s game was just weird. There’s no way that the Nationals are this much better than ANYONE (or us)……

    • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:23 pm

      100 degrees? Were you in the AC or something? It was so hot the chili dogs were like an ice cream treat.

      • Flavor said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:25 pm

        Well, I wasn’t there and I don’t know shit about heat and humidity. 100 sounded hot so that’s what I went with. :)

      • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:48 pm

        Just kidding Flav. I think it was around 100 during the day game.

  47. zumiee said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    I agree with Ted that it’s when Ruth is compared to his MLB era that he really shines.
    And he and lots of other white players barnstormed against black players in the off-season. A lot of the white players knew how good the black players were and vice verse; and some of the white players, I think, would have been open to the color line being broken much earlier than it was, but the owners were stubborn in their racism.
    The Babe had a huge part in saving MLB baseball after the Black Sox scandal in 1919. He became the record-setting folk-hero needed to help the sport move on to restoration, and on to huge success with the public.

  48. willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Nice inning, bum looks good. I love that last pitch, the high hard one to morse.
    Pence cracked that one too–little higher and that’s gone.

  49. willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    belt just missed one too, but that’s a dumb mistake to try for third. Funny, because tolbert was calling him out for not hitting an HR off RHP all year, and said he wanted 4 or 5 the rest of the way from him.

  50. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    stupid fuck…

    • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:47 pm

      there are no stupid (questions)
      only (questions) you didn’t mount.
      (insert gay-ass smiley face).

  51. eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    it may be poor base running but GREAT confidence.
    arriba Brandon Belt

  52. zumiee said, on August 14, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    Pence got a rightfield “wall” hit that some of you were talking about. Pretty cool how it was being talked about on the Flap and a few minutes later it happened.

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:10 pm

      I’m going to start talking about how weird it is that so few RH home runs are hit by Giants over that wall…

  53. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Well, nice play by Bum after his initial fielding error got things a little dicey Lucikly, Bum got himself out of the jam. I wonder if Giants pitchers practice infield during the year. Other than Zito and maybe Vogey, this staff sucks at fielding and keeping runners close. I consider that a coaching issue more than anything. Major league pitchers should be able to field bunts and keep runners reasonably close, that is just playing defense and is a matter of focus and practice. Give Buster a chance to throw out a stealer and he will throw him out…

  54. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    Getting your fill of Wall-Ball, snarkkie?

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 8:58 pm

      Yeah, I’m lovin’ the ball wall tonight. Belt is back, but gettin’ no love from the HR gods. Sheesh, another foot pound or two off the bat, and he’s got two dingers, not zero.
      Giants should have 4 runs, not 2. That’s makin me nervous against the Nats. Now we need the lock down pitching…

  55. eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    this is what a hot team does when they are going good.
    shite

  56. DJLoo said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    Belt loafed out of the box and got what he deserved. His baseball IQ is in single digits. The only major leaguer I know of who busts it out of the box 100% every time is Mark Teixeira…

  57. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    Belt should watch the way fucking Werth ran the bases. Belt ran himself into 2 fucking outs. Fucking clown.

    • unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:09 pm

      Sorry Bozo…

      • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:12 pm

        No prob Unca, Belt’s running like he’s wearing size 20 clown shoes.

  58. Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:05 pm

    Get that run back now Giants.

  59. eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    That’s how I play badminton: I spend one second watching my hit and am not ready for the return. Tell me Belt wasn’t going to first thinking, “it’s about freakin’ time.”

    • unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm

      Edd, yeah, that’s like the 3rd time I’ve been up to the buttes. Gorgeous out there.

  60. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    And Bochy’s in the dugout screaming “Not the fuck AGAIN!!”

  61. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    Sabes must have seen my earlier posts today re: minor league pitchers.
    Penny just sent to the DL with a “sore shoulder”.
    Otero is coming up 99…

  62. zumie said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Harper has power in his swing; I thought that was going to be kind of a pop-up to short left-center, and he almost hit it out.

    • willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm

      yes, but crawford has hit the ball farther than he has all night, and at least one of those was off a lhp too. Not to mention he homered off one last night. Harper has tons of talent, but the game is about a lot more than that. crawford has quietly improved over the course of the season into a reliable everyday player, imo.

  63. eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    I read an article about why Posey won’t get the MVP. (short version: he’s a catcher) But it also adds why he might.
    Defence aside, any catcher that has put up numbers like it looks Posey will this season (including defence) AND has won the MVP was on a team that went to the playoffs/series. Catchers on teams that didn’t and had the numbers didn’t get the MPV.
    I love this game

  64. Salty said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    Good job Pablo. I didn’t like leaving it up to Pence against Storen.

  65. Alleykat said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    Bats coming up big in the 8th! Nice 3 hit game for Belt.

  66. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    Pence is starting to feel it.
    and
    How about that Brandon Fuckin Belt?!!
    Bochy’s in the dugout yelling Fuck Yeah!!!…

  67. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    Criminy. Good bad and ugly for Belt. Hell of a game.

  68. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Pagan??? Glue head. Nice inning.

  69. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    Looks like some karma turned around that inning to the Giants favor from last night’s karmic debacle…

  70. Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    I’m thinking the Giants need a base running coach. But, that was a hell of an inning.

  71. willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    caballo loco, otra vez. Great hustle tho to beat out the hit and get sf another run. Not a great night for Nats vaunted pen.
    I like the move of arias for defense at 3b–get him some more work and leave scut at 2b.

  72. Alleykat said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    Like ive said before,im not worried about Pence at all,dude is still averaging anRBI every 6 AB’s.

  73. blade3colorado said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    No shit. Quite the turn-around.

  74. Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    Yes!

  75. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    Ballgame!

  76. Alleykat said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    Way to close it out MadBum!! 2nd CG as a Giant! Time for some Tony Bennett….

  77. willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    facial. Up to TL tmw to hold em down so SF can take the series.
    If this were fantasy league, I’d leave this LU in there the rest of the season and thru the WS.

  78. unca_chuck said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    Fricking Dodgers can’t lose. They are on their nasty roadie and they can’t lose. Me? I dump Barbara Billingsly from my FB team and he wins 5 straight.

    Hell of a game by Bummie. Shoulda been a shutout.

  79. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    POTG = Belt, despite the base running wackiness. The kid is gaining confidence, for sure. His Dauber is on the way back up. That lineup is looking more extended now with Pablo and Pence, it’s looking good so far. POTG #2 = Bum. Bum and Belt, Belt and Bum, Bourbon & Branch, I’m likin’ it…

  80. Salty said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    Great game from Madbum. That was much needed.
    Belt now 17-38 in Aug. Don’t think we’ll see Buster at 1b tomorrow.

  81. SanDawg said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    This is the first I’ve been able to log on today and I have to chime in to the Will Clark discussion. One of my lowest days as a Giants fan came in 1993 during the last game of the season vs the Dodgers. I was driving with my wife at the time to Laughlin. It was hot as hell and we were on some back-ass country road with no AC out by the Colorado River listening to Vin Scully on a static-filled Dodger affiliate. At a certain point the Dogs start pounding the Giants and it starts to become real that the Giants are going to win 103 games and not make the playoffs. I remember Mondesi hit a homer and Vin was really loving the fact that the Dodgers were putting the final stake in the Giants heart. He even went so far as to say it gave the Dodgers a certain amount of revenge for the Bobby Thompson homer. Vin’s a great one, but I have never hated him more than I did at that moment. He was positively giddy. It had become obvious that Bonds was now the main man and I had heard rumblings that Thrill wasn’t that happy. I remember turning to my wife as the game ended and saying that very well may have been Will Clark’s last game as a Giant. I damn near started crying I was so bummed about all of it.
    I still get sad when I think about that day. 2010 helped take away some of pain of those near misses, but I’d be lying if I said it smoothed things over completely.

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:09 pm

      Dawg, that’s some fine Giants’ memories, even tho’ painful. It was a shame Clark spent the next half decade elsewhere…

    • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:10 pm

      word, mate

      • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:14 pm

        Dude, it’s time for the chickens to crow over there, do you ever sleep?….

  82. Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Dawg – 93 is still something special to me. People forget that it wasn’t just Barry and Will but also Matt. I don’t know if Clark was unhappy or not but I do know management didn’t think they could keep the three of them, so they stuck with Matt and Barry.They kept Williams until 95 or 96 (I don’t remember the year), still, what a 3 through 5 that was in 1993.

  83. eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    yeah, I slept from 10:30 to 3:30 and have the rest of today off, so – go Gigantes

    • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:18 pm

      ed, you’re my idol. One of these days we just have to raise a couple of pints together.

      • eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:22 pm

        yur on! but one of those pints has to be to you and yours getting back in your house.
        :cool:

      • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:32 pm

        We’re back in this weekend buddy. It’s been a long time and man do I want to sleep in my own bed.

  84. eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    With Krukow ‘on assignment’ it may be true about the rumours that he is moving on up?

    • snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:22 pm

      Up where?
      He’s probably in SLO playing golf…

  85. willedav said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    might seem hard to believe, but brandon crawford actually has 4 more rbis this season 36-32 than bryce harper does. FWIW, b-r site lists harper WAR of 1.9, crawford 1.6 difference in their BA right now–6 pts. If AS game were held today, no way Bryce Harper is in it with his .733 OPS.

  86. eddacker said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    I heard he was considering an offer for nat’l TV, fox, I think.

  87. snarkk said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    Gnite, Gmorning Flappers…

  88. chipower9 said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    Awesome win! Madison was fucking nails…POTG.

    • Nipper said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:46 pm

      Yeah awesome!

      • Bozo said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:48 pm

        Grab some snacks Nip, but leave the sniffs behind.
        Awesome.

      • Nipper said, on August 14, 2012 at 11:01 pm

        Okay apple pie tonight….good!

  89. Macdog said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:51 pm

    Baggs just tweeted some Mota news: “Guillermo Mota threw 1 1/3 IP in his first rehab appearance for the Giants’ affiliate in the Arizona Rookie League. He’s eligible Aug. 28.”

  90. zumiee said, on August 14, 2012 at 10:52 pm

    We were talking about Babe Ruth earlier….I only just now looked at the website that has been set up to promote the Lefty Gomez biography, and it’s got a nice 4 minute video with lots of rare film footage from Lefty’s life in baseball, including Ruth, DiMaggio, and others.
    http://www.leftygomez.com/


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