THE San Francisco Giants Blog

Time for Me to Cast MY HOF Vote

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on December 17, 2012

Jeez, I wish I’d been sent this email last night, it would have made for a far more interesting thread today….

As many of you know, I am a member of the Baseball Blogger’s Alliance– you can find their link to the right and if you haven’t checked them out you should—they have collected all of the best baseball blogs and organized them in one site. They have many expectations for you to be invited (and remain) in the alliance, but it’s all stuff I like do: post regular threads and vote on the different nick-nacky things they call for us to vote on. I think some of you remember they made me vote on the end-of-year awards and post it in a thread so that I would get credit for voting.

Anyway, now they are asking for me to cast my HOF ballot. They will compile the results and compare the BBA’s HOF votes to the BBWAA’s *actual* inductees for this year’s class. Who wouldn’t want to be a part of that? Finally, I am at one with my *esteemed colleagues!* :)

Ok, so here I go. They say I can a vote for as many as I want. I’m posting the voter card here but it’s long so I had to break it up into 3 images. Here they are:

BBAHOF1

BBHOF2

BBHOF3

I’ll tell you right now, my criteria is pretty straight forward. I don’t care about steroid use unless it looks like it turned you into a completely different player (like Sammy Sosa). I don’t really care about your character but I did omit certain players like Fred McGriff just on the basis of hating him. I’m not super concerned with stats. I put more emphasis on how you ranked over the course of at least 10 years vs your peers. Did you perform at or near the top for at least a straight decade? Your post season game is also a factor (as in, did you step it up or produce in the post season).

I’ll just comment on the guys I waved through:

Jack Morris: He won 254 games and he was a beast in the post season (minus his ’92 post season). His ERA sucked but he’s the definition of a guy who you’d pick to start a huge game. In terms of dominance, he doesn’t really have it on numbers but he had it in terms of respect from the other players and, like I said, he was an ace of all aces if the criteria is “who do you pick to start this must win game”.

Lee Smith: 478 saves. He was an elite closer for 12 years straight. Plus, i don’t think closer’s get enough love in the HOF and he was also intimidating as fuck out on the mound.

Tim Raines: a triples machine with some power and the speed to steal enough bases to DOMINANT a game for 12 straight years. Rickey was better but that doesn’t mean this cat isn’t HOF-worthy.

Larry Walker: My two main *Hall of Very Good*  candidates were Walker and Murphy. I voted for Walker and not Murphy for one main reason. Murphy just didn’t keep it going at the top for 10 full seasons. He dominated from ’80 thru ’87 but ’88 onward were pretty dismal. I almost voted for him…..Walker on the other hand brought it for about a dozen straight seasons. Most of that was in Colorado and he was probably on steroids, but people forget how scary of an at bat he was. In his heyday (which was a pretty long heyday if you check the stats) Walker was Tony Gwynn with a lot more power, comparable speed and a little less average.  He was dominant for 9 straight years and I let my final year of criteria slide because he won me a shitload of money in fantasy baseball back in ’97……

Barry Bonds: the best hitter that baseball has ever seen. End of story.

Roger Clemens: tough one for me to send thru but 354 wins in this era is just impossible to ignore. But actually, if you look closely at his career, he was clearly petering out in ’93 thru ’96 and then all of a sudden he has an explosion for another 8 years that just looks out of place. And he didn’t have my required *decade of dominance* prior to that so…..screw it, I’m canceling my vote.. No HOF for Clemens. I’m literally drunk with power right now…..

Craig Biggio: Accumulating 3000+ hit while playing your entire career for the Astros is a green light all day long as far as I’m concerned. You’d think all of those 1-2-3 innings alone would prevent Bigg’s from even getting 3000 at bats, much less hits……

That’s it. i was on the fence on Sele and Klesko but in the end, I just couldn’t hit the box. :)

Thoughts?

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  1. Bozo said, on December 17, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Good picks Flav. I may have left Raines and Walker off but that’s just me. Actually, if I was a voting member of the BBWAA, I’d only vote for Bonds until he was enshrined. You’ve got guys that are going to put in a vote for Mattingly or Trammell but not vote for Bonds, fuck that. In my opinion, nobody goes in until Barry Lamar gets a plaque.

    • Flavor said, on December 17, 2012 at 5:47 pm

      I don’t see him getting in. If Rose didn’t get in (and I appreciate the reasons he’s left out, betting on baseball is like the biggest rule there is in the game) then I see them holding the same grudge against Bonds. He was the poster-player for the steroid era as well as being a total d-bag to the guys who ultimately cast the vote to allow/deny him entry. I just don’t see any of that ever changing, even 20 years from now.

      • Bozo said, on December 17, 2012 at 8:08 pm

        Probably right, but if I was voting nobody else would be on my ballot. Also, I would have never voted Cal Ripken in, who I still believe used PEDs to heal not to bulk up. So would I have been drummed out of the BBWAA for these two thoughts? Maybe, but it seems to me the votes can and have been based on the stats, the voter’s gut, the voter’s eyes, their heart or just if the player did an interview or not. So I would make my stand.

        And I understand the argument about the Hall isn’t there to represent history or as Ann Killion says “The Hall of Fame is the highest honor in the game, not just a history chart: If it were, Roger Maris and Curt Flood would be enshrined.”, I understand it but don’t totally agree, it is all about the history of the players that have dominated and/or changed the game (IMO). Pete Rose should be in as a player (not a manager when he bet on and probably, against his team). Maris would have been in if it hadn’t been Ruth’s record that he broke (if Honus Wagner or Ty Cobb had held the season HR record, Maris would have been voted in after he broke it). What’s my point? I don’t know, I entered OSF territory quite awhile back.

        Fuck it, add Kenny Lofton (for a few years it seemed every team that traded for him went to the WS), Reggie Sanders and Royce Clayton.

  2. xoot said, on December 17, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Roger Clemens, an apparently despicable person, nonetheless is a HOFer, but you do have to look at the stats. In addition to the wins, how about 24 seasons, 4,916 IP, 4,672 SOs (1580 BB), career WHIP 1.173, and 118 CGs (mainly in his first 10 years). I’d like to be able say otherwise, but his case for induction is strong. Not a lock, like Bonds’s, but strong.

    • Bozo said, on December 17, 2012 at 8:09 pm

      How ya been xoot?

    • Flavor said, on December 17, 2012 at 8:17 pm

      of course I looked at stats. But as I also said, he had a noticeable decline in his career after his 7th full season in the big leagues. He was marginal for 3-4 years compared to what he had done from ’86 to ’92. And then all of a sudden he goes to Toronto and has a re-birth that results in 8 straight years of dominance into his early 40′s? Come on, steroids obviously saved his career, especially when you consider the legal mess and accusations that dogged him. What else could have fueled that near-career death revival into his early 40′s, lol?
      Good to see you though Xoot, I read a couple of your threads at John D’s blog earlier this fall—good stuff……

    • xoot said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:04 am

      Clemens had 14 more seasons after his dip in 94, and many of them were great. That’s a helluva run. Like Bonds, Clemens thrived on roids — maybe their trainers were better, maybe their bodies were just right for the rejuvenation, maybe they were more disciplined about working out and making the most of the juice. I don’t know. But the results can’t flow solely from the drugs, because none of the other juicers came close to either of them. Overall Clemens career numbers fairly resemble Nolan Ryan’s, although Ryan pitched a bit longer (and had an astounding 220 CGs). Ryan had a late-career resurgence, too — and it just happened to coincide with the start of the steroid era.

      I have to admit I have a personal argumentative reason for supporting Clemens. I figure if you can make his case convincingly, then Bonds, the best player of his era, is a lock.

      • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:34 am

        I agree whole-heartedly with you on this one, xoot (about the reasons that Bonds and Clemens possibly thrived). I don’t think it fair to single-out a couple of players because of the anomoly such as Clemens (kicked-ass, four mediocre years, and dominated again). I am sure we all believe roid use was rampant, so again…I don’t see how you can single out “the poster boys.” Of course, in reality this is not how it will play out, and IMO, that sucks.

        I also think Rose belongs on his merits as a player.

  3. Salty said, on December 17, 2012 at 9:05 pm

    Whoa.. Casilla has been signed to 3 yr with option.

  4. JBat said, on December 17, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    Wow, some of the names on the list are mind-boggling. Jeff Cirillo? LOL!

    But having had the pleasure of watching the great Edgar Martinez for his entire career here in Seattle, I am 100% behind him being the first DH inducted into the HoF. One of the best right handed hitters I’ve seen and a total class act to boot, a real gentleman. The Hall would be luck to have him in it.

  5. unca_chuck said, on December 17, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    Rolls Rouce Clayton . . . He was better than Tinker, wasn’t he?

    • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:38 am

      First time I saw Clayton was during a tour with the Air Force in Louisiana, and we caught a couple of Shreveport Captains games. Royce was their SS, and my friends and I all agreed…this kid will be in The Show in no time. My daughter really liked him, too (she played SS, so she always had a spot for the likes of Clayton, Vizquel, etc.). HOFer…may be a stretch for me.

  6. eddacker said, on December 18, 2012 at 12:55 am

    my kid Aren had royce as his favorite player during his formative years.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 6:37 am

      If I had grown up when Royce was around, he would have been my favorite too, if only because of the cool name. :-)

  7. snarkk said, on December 18, 2012 at 2:23 am

    I know the BBWWA clowns will vote only 1 or 2 into the HOF. So, I’m voting more to catch up for the past screw ups.
    Morris — If Blyleven got in, so does Morris. At low ender HOFer, but the Hall needs a few more Twins.
    Bagwell — probably a ‘roider, but he qualifies. “Stros need more HOFers.
    Lee Smith — the dude was nails in his heyday. Very intimidating. How can Sutter be in, but not this guy?
    Tim Raines — great base stealer and runner. He apparently did a lot of drugs. So? He’s in.
    Larry Walker — he has the stats, probably air-aided by Denver. Whatever. Rocks need a HOFer. He’s in.
    Dale Murphy — a low ender HOFer, but if Morris is in as a pitcher, so is Murphy. Braves need a HOFer from that era. Good guy, too.
    Bonds. In.
    Clemens. A prick. Longevity cannot be ignored. Dominating his first decade. In.
    Schilling. A prick. Out.
    Biggio. Easily in.

  8. Flavor said, on December 18, 2012 at 4:48 am

    Casilla’s 3 year/15 million dollar deal all but ends Bee-Wheezy’s return. Besides Wilson probably feeling a little jilted to see Casilla get that kind of scratch (and the Giants never even offered him a deal), I doubt there’s any dough left in the kitty to sign another meaningful relief piece.
    I’m ok with the deal. He’s 32 though and he’s always flown pretty close to the *crazy sun*, gettin’ his wings burned more than once.
    But he’s got a 2.22 ERA in 170.1 innings of work in his career as a Giant. That type of long term production is undeniable and he is one of the most valuable pieces of our stud bullpen. I say, good signing……..

    • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:39 am

      Agree…I like the move a lot.

  9. blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 6:28 am

    I saw Larry Walker for his entire career with the Rockies and he doesn’t get in for two reasons; 1. His home/away splits are hilarious, e.g., batting average at home was .348 and away was .278; and, 2. He was scared to face Randy Johnson (not exactly an unwarranted fear, except he was a MLB player) and would try to AVOID Randy Johnson whenever he pitched . . . Denver papers had numerous articles about him taking the day off whenever Randy pitched (see below)

    http://extras.denverpost.com/scolumns/kiz0419.htm

    Your other picks are fine, except, I would also add Clemens and Murphy. By the by, post the results of your “Hall” and Cooperstown’s Hall when the results are in.

    • Flavor said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:36 am

      I will. We will have our votes posted on Jan 7th. The BBWAA posts their official vote on Jan 9th, I think…….

  10. eddacker said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:56 am

    We felt the Yankees were the best fit to try to win a World Series.”
    —Former Fenway favorite Kevin Youkilis,

    • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:59 am

      That’s fucking laughable…

  11. eddacker said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:04 am

    How to be unhappy about every move your favorite team makes.or what your team has done this offseason. Consult it when that next big move happens.

    If your team has signed a free agent, remember that the free agent is probably “old” in baseball terms. He’s likely on the wrong side of 30 and “past his prime” or “in decline.” Ignore the fact that “past his prime” and “useless” are not the same thing. The fact that he will not repeat his glory years means that the world is about to end. On Friday.

    If your team has signed a free agent to a long-term deal, simply repeat over and over that even if he fills a pressing current need, the deal will be hard to swallow when the player is 38. Ignore the fact that escalating salaries and increasing revenues will make his 2017 salary look a little better by then and that he gives your team a good chance this year. Just pretend that everything will be the same in 2017 as it is now. And cry because if it does hamstring the team’s budget (it might), you have been robbed of your right to cheer for a team that constantly has maximum payroll flexibility three years from now, by virtue of the fact that there’s no one on the roster worth keeping that long. That’s what the Third Amendment is about.

    If your team has signed a free agent with an injury history, he will be hurt on Opening Day trying to catch a popup. Because that’s what happened to Mo Vaughn.

    If your team just missed on signing that free agent, your owner is incredibly cheap and your GM has no idea what he’s doing. He is unable to see that the free agent would have taken less money to come to your city because his brother’s wife’s cousin’s dog is from a town 150 miles away. And your team has prospects. And your fair city has museums and restaurants. No other city has these things.

    If your team just lost a free agent who is very good at baseball, this is the worst day in your franchise’s history. He is a traitor because… why… doesn’t… he… love… me? (Note: I owe this one to my wife. We were living in Cleveland when Lebron left. In five words, she nailed the entirety of the three days that followed.) I’d recommend some emu music. Not emo. Listen to the sounds that emus make.

    If your team just lost a free agent who was not very good at baseball, despair over the fact that the change of scenery/new role might do him some good. If you just signed this guy, despair over the fact that a leopard can’t change his spots and even in a new role or with a different perspective on coaching, this guy will continue to stink.

    If your team just signed a decent reliever, you can always point out that your team needs a proven closer™, and so despite the fact that they also need three or four decent bullpen arms in general, since this one is not a proven closer™, your team is doomed. What’s worse is that the third baseman you just signed can’t close either.

    If your team just lost someone in the Rule 5 Draft, he will become the next Roberto Clemente. Note: Rule 5 picks all have a major flaw in their game. That’s why they were left unprotected. Some of them do fix up the flaw, and it works out great. But no one ever rolls out the list of Rule 5 picks that didn’t work out. It’s a much longer list. Just ignore it.

    If your team just traded a prospect, you just gave up Jeff Bagwell for Doyle Alexander. It’s entirely irrelevant that it was John Smoltz for Alexander and Bagwell for Larry Andersen. This is not the time to be rational.

    If your team just acquired a prospect, he could get hurt. Or stall. Or not be the 20 WARP player that all industry sources expect him to be… or at least my Cousin Frank said that. He could join Oxfam. He could get hurt. (Um, all baseball players can get hurt.)

    If your team has done nothing, you could totally do a better job. You’d do something. And there would be 29 GMs lined up at your door to help you do something.

    ~Russell A. Carleton is an author of Baseball Prospectus.

  12. James said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:15 am

    Bonds,Clemens, Raines, Piazza, Schilling, Bagwell are my picks. Pretty funny that no one even bothers to diss Piazza.

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:25 am

      I thought the same about Piazza. Dude should be in.

  13. willedav said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:25 am

    Thinking about the previous thread, would you include Toronto coughing up top prospect and signing Dickey to 3 yr deal for $30 mil? He’ll be 40 by the time he’s making Zito money last couple years.
    Bloggers on cbs seem split on this one—one side saying he’s only had one good year entire career and he’ll get lit up in smaller AL East parks, the other saying he’s done really well for last 3 yrs in a row, eats up innings and is good vs. everybody.
    I’m surprised at the $$, but I like Casilla. He throws hard and has killer breaking ball, and I think will be motivated to show he can close when asked. I also think that opp will definitely arise at points during the season and he complements the l/r split stuff Bochy dominates in any late inning situation.

    • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:04 am

      Well, I agree that his last three years have been pretty damned good. But currently 38 YO, 3 years, and that scratch…I’d pass.

    • Flavor said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:14 am

      I think the Jays got a steal with Dickey. It takes knuckleballers a little longer to develop but when they do they can pitch forever (as you know). And Dickey’s got a fastball that really separates him from other knuckleballers……..

      • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 11:59 am

        Well, time will tell. I still think it is a lot of coin on a three year deal for a guy who is already 38, who has basically only had three decent years (and those are his last 3 in the NL). His AL ERA is 5.43 and WHIP is 1.572.

        Late bloomer or not…again, I would have passed at almost 10 per year.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:54 am

      The knuckleball pitch wont put wear and tear on his arm, so I am in the camp that thinks this is a great signing for Toronto. I’ve had Dickey on my FL fantasy league teams the last couple of years. He is very RELIABLE and a bonus is that he strikes out a lot of players.

  14. chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:06 am

    Thanks for sharing, Flav. Excellent topic for discussion. First, re: Walker…this shit was priceless: “He was dominant for 9 straight years and I let my final year of criteria slide because he won me a shitload of money in fantasy baseball back in ’97……” I think most of you know that I compete in agility with dogs. One of the sticklers of dog handlers is “sticking to your criteria” (and hammering on other handlers when they do not stick to it). In other words, if you expect a dog to stop at the end of the A-frame and wait for your release…it better be that way 1000 out of 1000 times. For that reason (criteria)…you had me LMAO re: Walker and criteria. Also loved the “I’m literally drunk with power right now…” in reference to canceling on Clements.

    My picks:
    Morris, Bagwell, Smith, Raines, Walker, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Schilling, Biggio

  15. willedav said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:12 am

    I’d vote Piazza in….my buddies and I always wondered if he was subject of a rumor out of NY about a gay man claiming to be in relationship with a famous baseball player. Who is going to be baseball equivalent of Jerry Smith of redskins, pretty damn good player who admitted after he left football that he was gay?
    In girls sports at every level from high school to college to pros it’s an open secret there are girls who prefer girls. It’s been that way for many years and everyone, teammates and coaches included, co-exists in practices and games. Coaches with this preference are hired to coach girls without any qualms, and it’s something I’ve seen (at least in bay area) for a long time, and the coaches I’ve known were top athletes as players and very good coaches.

    • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 12:02 pm

      Agree…back in the early 80s I lived next to the woman who was Sac State’s women’s tennis coach, and she lived with another woman…we were “pretty sure” they were in a relationship, and there was a fairly regular stream of young college lasses along for parties at their place. My ex, brother-in-law and I always kidded “looks like another cucumber party tonight.” If I only could have been a fly on the wall at some of those bashes!

  16. zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:36 am

    I got Paulie’s book yesterday and read it. The book brought many smiles to my face, and moved me emotionally, too.
    It’s about novella-length, so you can read it in one sitting, if you have the time. I started it last night, and couldn’t put it down. We, on the Flap, know some of the pieces of the story; but to read it as one seamless narrative was a joy. Well done, Paulie, and thanks for writing it. I posted a review on Amazon.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 18, 2012 at 11:59 am

      Ah, that was YOUR review. Thank you, Zumieeeee, sir. Um, how’d you like the dedication??? :)

    • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 12:04 pm

      Awesome…I should get mine any time from Amazon.

  17. dirtnrocksnomo said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:36 am

    Morris — Dude was nails. He should be in already.
    Lee Smith — In. Shouldn’t even be a discussion.
    Tim Raines — He shouldn’t suffer from playing in The Rickey era. Rickey was otherworldy and Raines was 1a to him.
    Bonds. I’m wasn’t a fan and am not a big Bonds supporter but I think he was a HOF player prior to steroid induced numbers so he’s in.
    Clemens. In but only if he can beat Dave Stewart in an old timers game first.
    Piazza. Best offensive numbers for a catcher. In easily.
    E Martinez. If the DH is going to continue to be a part of baseball the DH should be recognized in the hall and Martinez was a great hitter.

    I’m surprised you consider Klesko on the fence. Are you talking Ryan Klesko? Dude was a decent to good player but HOF?

    • Flavor said, on December 18, 2012 at 10:47 am

      well the Sele and Kelsko comment was a joke.
      But you guys got me to change my mind about Edgar Martinez.
      I still wouldn’t let Piazza in. Hate him.

  18. zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Bonds and Clemens jump out as the two biggest names, but they are doomed by the steroid cloud, and the chance for baseball writers to pretend that sportswriters are the conscious of the sport, whatever that means. A bunch of guys like Ray Ratto and Skip Bayless pretending to be the conscious of anything is pretty ludicrous.

    • Flavor said, on December 18, 2012 at 10:45 am

      skip bayless is a total fool. He makes Steven A actually sound slightly intelligent (and he isn’t).

      • twinfan1 said, on December 18, 2012 at 11:15 am

        Marked on his headstone will be “Tebow’s Bitch”

      • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 12:21 pm

        As a child, Bayless was beaten unmercifully for no reason at all by his alcoholic father. Not justifying him, just saying he is missing the “empathy gene” with regard to other people. Dude is only passionate about two things: Work; and, working out at the gym. That’s it. A sad life . . .

      • twinfan1 said, on December 18, 2012 at 12:34 pm

        Well, three things. But I didn’t know of his childhood abuse, I feel badly for him.

      • unca_chuck said, on December 18, 2012 at 4:52 pm

        Really, Blade? How did you come across that info?

  19. zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 10:38 am

    The Casilla signing surprised me regarding the number of years and the amount of money. But I’m glad the bullpen is staying basically intact.

    • chipower9 said, on December 18, 2012 at 12:06 pm

      When you consider Affeldt got 3 at 18 (5 mil signing bonus and 5 per for three years)…I don’t have a problem with it.

      • twinfan1 said, on December 18, 2012 at 12:27 pm

        Considering that he’s pitched for chump change (relatively speaking), 4 mill or so over 3 years here, I’m happy for him, he deserves it. He had the one bad stretch last year that the team attributes to blister problems but he finished well and had a good postseason. With Wilson probably not returning, we would have been dangerously thin on RH relief.

      • snarkk said, on December 18, 2012 at 3:39 pm

        Seems a little steep and a year too long to me, but then, every contract does. There’s probably not much better RH late inning guys out there, so OK. Maybe a little (alot?) security will settle him down a little. When he’s got that running Fball going, and throws that 2 strike hook, he’s tough. He just seems to lose focus a little too often. But, hey, he was closer for 1/2 last season, and did pretty damn well, so some of that dough is probably a little reward for services rendered…

  20. twinfan1 said, on December 18, 2012 at 11:13 am

    I’ve been reading about something I never knew- the asterisk that supposedly was next to the Maris HR record is a myth, it was never there. Most of you probably knew that. Also- Maris actually broke Ruth’s record in fewer plate apperances than it took Babe to hit his 60. I’ve always thought that given that it was THE BABE, the fact that Yankee fans desperately wanted Mantle to be the one, and that he did it on on the final weekend of the season, that Roger’s record was the greatest single season accomplishment ever. I’m happy that as the years passed, Maris became more appreciated than he was in his time. It’s a shame that that appreciation came posthumously..

  21. unca_chuck said, on December 18, 2012 at 11:43 am

    I got Morris (in his prime, and playoffs he was as tough a competitior as anyone in the game) Smith (intimidating as fuck for a looong time), Raines (Rickey lite), Murphy (maybe he wasn’t dominant for long enough, but I’ve seen him hit more hard shots live than anyone else not on the Giants), Bonds/Clemens (good enough before the taint. They get in), Piazza (didn’t much like the fuck, but he wanted to shove that broken bat up Clemens’ ass, so why not?)

  22. twinfan1 said, on December 18, 2012 at 11:51 am

    Morris, Smith, Raines, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Martinez.
    It’s criminal that Raines isn’t already in. Edgar is THE name as a DH, nobody close until Ortiz is eligible ( that I can think of)

    • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm

      Agree about Raines . . . Pathetic that he is only getting this much support from the BBWAA toward Hall of Fame inclusion.

      2008 BBWAA (24.3%)
      2009 BBWAA (22.6%)
      2010 BBWAA (30.4%)
      2011 BBWAA (37.5%)
      2012 BBWAA (48.7%)

  23. unca_chuck said, on December 18, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Yeah, signing Casilla, esp for 3 years, really looks like the Giants are parting ways with the Weeze.

    • zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 6:57 pm

      It’d be interesting to know what, if any, offers Wilson is getting.

  24. blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    Chuck, this is the link regarding Skip Bayless’s fitness . . . http://www.mensfitness.com/leisure/entertainment/the-9-most-ripped-nerds?page=5

    Here is the interview which details his father’s physical and verbal abuse . . . http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-mad-monk-of-espn-20120928

  25. zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Thanks, Pawlie, for dedicating your new book to all of us at the Flap. That’s very cool.

    I just know that many, many Giants fans would love to read it, if the word gets out somehow.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:10 pm

      Glad to do it; want to do it. I feel the book will get some word-of-mouth traction, by social media or real mouths.

  26. zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    I know I shouldn’t get annoyed at columnists; they’re just cranking out their columns. But it bugged me the other day when Jenkins wrote about how the Giants should be concerned about lack of depth in their organization at starting pitching. I’m NOT even saying I disagree with that, but it just bugs me that Jenkins, who has doubted the Giants all the way through their winning 2 World Series in 3 years, wants to give them advice. I’m not interested in his advice to the Giants. It isn’t welcome. He’s been WRONG about the Giants for years. How about a gigantic column apologizing for being so wrong? That would be welcome to read. Maybe he’s already done that, and I missed it. But I doubt he would do it. And who wants to hear Ray Ratto with Tom Tolbert on KNBR? At least Tolbert has always been upfront about his disinterest in the Giants.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:19 pm

      Agree Zum. Obviously, I miss quite a bit, insofar as the up to date stuff you guys get in the Chronicle and Mercury, with regard to the local columnists dispensing their pearls of wisdom (NOT!) . . . I’m not certain how many of you younger guys here remember Glenn Dickey, but he use to do the same shit with all the bay area teams (especially galling when he was criticizing Joe Montana, Bill Walsh, Eddie D. or anyone from the 49ers, even after they had won their 3rd Superbowl championship).

      The bottom line is that I forget that their job is to be provocative and controversial, yet some of their shit is hard to digest. I wouldn’t want their job . . .

      • zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:39 pm

        Yeah, I remember Dickey’s schtick. He was always just trying to stir stuff up to get his column’s talked about, because he had a big lack of knowledge about sports. It’s doubtful anyone ever learned much of anything about sports reading Dickey’s columns.

      • Bozo said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:17 pm

        I think it got to the point where only the coaches and managers would talk to Dickey. The players were a no, Jerry Rice was a no fucking way.

      • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:32 pm

        That’s some funny shit John.

    • twinfan1 said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:14 pm

      I think Jenkins is a great baseball writer- which is not to say I agree with much of what he writes. I”ve never thought that agreeing with a columnist was the criteria. I understand why many don’t like him, though. Dickey ? Besides being a terrible writer I could never past that he’s always looked like the kind of snooty wine steward we’d all be delighted to smack silly Well, I would.
      We’ve been blessed with some of the best sports annoucers ever, our writers don’t measure up, IMO.

      • Bozo said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:36 pm

        I don’t mind Jenkins except when he gets a bug up his butt about a player blowing off an interview. I thought Joan Ryan was pretty good (hated Gwen Knapp). I know it has to do with the Editor but I wish the Chron leaned more towards the SF teams (I mean it is a SF paper and all), it just seems a bit heavy on Oaktown to me. On the beat, Henry never seems to finish the game (IMO), switch him with Slusser or the huge A’s fan on staff, John Shea and I’d be OK with that. I like a little fan of my team in my baseball writer, I would have loved the old Chron TV critic, Tim Goodman, doing the beat reporting.

      • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:45 pm

        “. . . always looked like the kind of snooty wine steward we’d all be delighted to smack silly . . . ”

        You perfectly captured Mr. Glenn Dickey(head). Yeah, I always thought he thought he was above Sports and should have had the urbane, sophisticated, “everyman” Herbert Eugene “Herb” Caen’s gig.

        By the by, my favorite Herb Caen line is, “If I do go to heaven, I’m going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven. He looks around and says, It ain’t bad, but it ain’t San Francisco.”

  27. zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    MLB.com’s Chris Haft has this to say:

    Maybe the Giants’ farm system lacks the depth of talent other organizations possess. But those organizations didn’t spend their No. 1 draft picks on Tim Lincecum in 2006, Madison Bumgarner in 2007 and Posey in 2008. And right-hander Zack Wheeler, the Giants’ first-rounder in 2009 who was traded to the Mets for Carlos Beltran, appears destined to be a productive pitcher. At a glance — and I welcome readers to provide further evidence — the only team to reap a more fruitful crop of first-rounders in that span was Tampa Bay, which grabbed Evan Longoria in ’06 and David Price in ’07.

    The bottom line is this: Anybody claiming that the Giants have an inferior farm system has a woefully short memory. San Francisco has won two of the last three World Series. Isn’t that every club’s ultimate goal? Moreover, numerous “homegrown” players besides the aforementioned (Matt Cain, Brian Wilson, Sergio Romo, Pablo Sandoval, Brandon Crawford, Brandon Belt and others) have furthered San Francisco’s ability to capture the ultimate prize.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:50 pm

      The “ultimate prize.” Yup. In our house. Nodding head.

  28. PawlieKokonuts said, on December 18, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    I have to laugh reading comments by R.A. Dickey. He strikes me as “well-spoken” to the point of irritation. He said he had to “grieve” leaving New York, and in the next half-breath he is “so excited” to be with Toronto. The dude must just race through those Kubler-Ross stages. Spare me. Just spare me. Boo-fecking-hoo.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:00 pm

      I read the same article and it was almost ridiculous how he conveyed his grieving of leaving New York and excitement of joining Toronto in what seemed like a nano-second. Huh? I think that expression about “. . . faster than a New York minute” is appropriate for this guy’s emotions.

    • Macdog said, on December 18, 2012 at 10:06 pm

      Ha, that was pretty much the cutline I went with tonight: Sad to be leaving N.Y. but excited to be joining Toronto. Jeez, Dickey, which is it?

  29. blade3colorado said, on December 18, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    Excuse me while I barf as I listen to these sanctimonious, say anything, Repubtards attempting to get “ahead” of the gun control debate. OK, back to your regular Flap baseball station . . .

  30. zumiee said, on December 18, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Bozo, Tim Goodman was my favorite writer at the Chronicle. His TV column was must-read, for me. He did have one huge misfire- his negative column about Kruk and Kuip, and the Giants broadcasts on Comcast. Kruk and Kuip got the last laugh, I guess, though. Goodman was eventually let go from the Chronicle because of downsizing, and Kruk and Kuip are more beloved than ever by the fans.
    I know Goodman has a blog out there on the web, but I rarely check in on it.

    • Bozo said, on December 19, 2012 at 5:59 am

      Z – I think he took a gig with The Hollywood Reporter. Don’t know if he had to relocate to the Southland or not. Loved the guy, he would throw in Giants comments every now and again in his columns and seemed to be a fan. Didn’t catch the one about Kruk and Kuip, the only jersey I have is Krukow’s, so that would have pissed me off a bit.

  31. James said, on December 18, 2012 at 11:18 pm

    I just looked up the post season records of Curt Schilling and Jack Morris. Schilling was a far better pitcher in the playoffs and WS, too.

    • Flavor said, on December 19, 2012 at 5:43 am

      Shilling is a fucktard piece of shit.

      • James said, on December 19, 2012 at 8:37 am

        No argument from me. He still is a much better pitcher than Morris.

  32. twinfan1 said, on December 19, 2012 at 9:29 am

    The HOF selection isn’t much for sabrestats and a dozen or two postseason games aren’t terribly significant. Fucktard wasn’t ever dominant enough long enough to compensate for “just” 216 wins, very low for HOF induction. I’m not sure where the “Character clause” stands now but whatever- it’s in the eye of the beholder and slimeball + skimpy win total= no way.

    • James said, on December 19, 2012 at 10:17 am

      Well, this wasn’t about who would get in based on the criteria of actual HOF voters. Curt Schilling, despite being a reprehensible right-wing creep, was a much better pitcher than Morris, while playing at a time when starting pitcher ERAs were quite high and win totals decreased because of the greater reliance on the bullpen. 216 wins will be a high career total into the future, if the current patterns continue. As for the post season, i agree. I brought it up only because Morris’s post season performance was cited on his behalf.


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