THE San Francisco Giants Blog

Awaiting the REAL HOF results from the BBWAA

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 8, 2013

Unca here . . .  Blind shot through the City Hall doors holding my camera over my head yesterday. So close, yet so far.

DSC_0333a

I’m very interested to see how closely (or not closely) my group’s vote compares to the BBWAA vote that comes out on Wednesday. We have over 400 voting members, I think. The BBWAA had 581 of it’s members send in ballots last year (a record number).

Upon further reflection, the only player i voted for who I would take my vote back on was Walker. I think the other 5 guys should get waved in with all the confidence of a Tim Flannery green light at third. And I regret not voting for Bagwell. I forgot how durable he was and was surprised to see that he had 2 seasons stealing 30 (or more) bases. There should be a lot more players in the baseball HOF and the criteria for entry has been diluted to the point of almost making the Hall irrelevant.

In 1936 the first five players to get inducted were Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Matthewson, and Walter Johnson. That’s a pretty slick crew. The bar was set high. Now, I’m not gonna say that it started to go downhill from there. But the criteria for entry became, shall we say, *fluid*….

Voters are only allowed to cast 10 votes per voting season but until the 1950’s, voters were encouraged to always cast up to the maximum of 10. Then for some unknown reason the trend started to turn and it became much tougher to get voted in. That’s too bad, they had the right idea up until the mid-50’s.

Last night, as I indicated, I sent off an email to my BBA brethren questioning the stinginess of the results of our vote. A rather spirited email chain developed that lasted well into the night. Here’s an email from one of the blog owners (Paul Dylan) that I thought stated it perfectly:

“I want the exact opposite.  I favor a huge hall of fame and think it should be much “easier” (whatever that means – if we let Mike Piazza in, does it mean his road here was any easier than if we don’t?).  How in the world is a fan’s experience enriched when we refuse to acknowledge the greatest players the sport has ever known?  The Hall of Fame is a museum dedicated to the sport and to the phenomenal athletes that have given so much joy to us, the fans.  The present state of the Hall of Fame is a travesty and a sad affair.  If no one gets into the Hall of Fame on this, the greatest ballot in the history of the institution, it’s because the system is unworthy, not the players.”

They send all sorts of memorabilia to the HOF. Bats, gloves, balls—all that jazz gets sent in. And why? Because it’s a part of baseball history—just like all of the *very good* players who get hosed on a yearly basis by the hubris of the BBWAA. I want a place to go to that honors everything that has ever contributed to making baseball the best sport in the world. Add like 6 or 7 wings to the HOF. Focus votes on inclusion, not exclusion. Dale Murphy was the best player in the game for 8 straight years. He doesn’t deserve a spot in the Hall? Why not? Cause he didn’t do it for 9 or 10 straight years? It’s dumb. I’d cast my vote for Murphy now as well.

And if Bonds doesn’t get 100% of the vote on Wednesday, I will no longer acknowledge the HOF until massive changes occur in the voting process……

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  1. blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:51 am

    I was floored that your group was much more stringent (than I would have imagined). This probably means that the BBWAA will NOT LET ANYONE in, since they have shown themselves to be tighter than a gnat’s ass. Glad to see the mea culpa on Walker. Dude should be in the Hall of Good, not the Hall of Fame as I stated in an earlier post. I think I cited a column where he avoided Randy Johnson like the plague. That coupled with him being injury prone and playing at Coors Field, eliminates him in my mind.

    Good thread Flav. :-)

    • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:54 am

      Flav, I am two steps behind you closing out old posts and doing new posts . . . I will try this again, since right after I publicized a new thread, you published a new thread, sooooo, new thread at my blog . . . http://aroundtheworldwithblade.wordpress.com Thank you for your kind patronage. :-)

  2. chipower9 said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:53 am

    Wow. I do not think I have ever seen a more compelling argument for expansion of the hall. Dude makes a very legit case in my opinion. Excellent thread.

  3. xoot said, on January 8, 2013 at 7:18 am

    I thought Jayson Stark’s annotated HOF-ballot made a lot of sense. I wouldn’t’ve voted for Sosa, but otherwise I pretty much agreed with him. His unequivocal endorsement of Bonds as “the most talented baseball player I’ve ever seen” (or something like that) goes right to the heart of the issue. If the BBWAA black-balls Bonds, and I suspect they will, the HOF automatically becomes a joke. It will be like flipping a toggle switch — all credibility, gone. As I’ve explained before, I think Clemens should be a first-ballot selection too. He’s not nearly the automatic choice Bonds is, but the writers will compound the joke on themselves if they blac- ball him too.

    A fair number of writers have publicized their support for Bonds. Maybe we’ll be gladly surprised. But I doubt it.

    • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2013 at 7:45 am

      Agree, xoot. Regarding writers and support (or lack thereof) of Bonds, I didn’t keep a tally, but recall when the issue was being debated locally on CSNBA, etc., that more of the local writers said they will NOT vote for Bonds than those who said they would. Dumbasses…

      • xoot said, on January 8, 2013 at 12:19 pm

        On Bonds, Schulman and Baggarly say they will vote yes, HOF; Killion and Slusser, no. Jenkins is a yes, but I don’t know if he votes any more. Also don’t know about Shea or others

  4. gianthead said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:06 am

    I am so stupid…how did I not bet my life savings on Alabama???? Up $1600 though since New Year’s:)

    • Flavor said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:07 am

      i thought you took my ND-boost as the reason for betting Alabama!?!?!?!?!

      • gianthead said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:36 am

        No, I did bet Bama and the over…should have bet a whole lot more though!!! Flav’s prognosis was all I needed to stay with Bama. Modest $350 win last night…should have been $3500!

    • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:26 am

      What the fuck? GH it sounded like you were taking that bet. What changed your mind? Sheesh, I was cheer leading you on Flav’s previous post. What’s the saying, “No Guts, No Glory.” :-)

      • gianthead said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:37 am

        You can still be proud of me Blade!!! Just my balls are not as big…

      • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:40 am

        Grin. OK, but a little more back bone on the bets. Sheesh, I was going to hit you for some “vig.” Why? I was cheer leading you on. HEHEHE.

      • gianthead said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:55 am

        Well give me some advice on the nfl playoffs then, especially Flav!

        I have a tease on Saturday for the Broncos at -3 and Niners at +3 and then teasing the Texans and Seahawks and I think I am getting +15 on the first and +14.5 on the second!!!

      • gianthead said, on January 8, 2013 at 11:00 am

        Take that back, Seahawks on the Tease is getting +8.5

      • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2013 at 11:01 am

        The reality is that I would be the WORST person to ask for advice about the NFL this year. I haven’t followed it at all this year (as I have noted a few times this season on the Flap). Chuck and Twin are the resident experts this year. I would have said Flav as well, but per Chuck’s 49er site, I understand he is 0-4 for the playoffs thus far. ;-)

        However, if you want NBA basketball advice, I consider myself up to date on all things NBA.

      • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2013 at 11:26 am

        You know the saying…NO BALLS, NO BLUE CHIPS.

        IF you have balls, they are so small as to not be seen by the naked eye.

        But hey, your huevos are bigger than mine…I did not lay any coin on the game…and glad I did not, as I would have taken the points.

  5. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:36 am

    There were 573 ballots cast for and against Raines last year so I’ll presume that’s how many voters there are.
    I think he’s still the most egregious omission. Some noted writers who left him out were Mark Purdy, Nick Peters, Buster Olney,Dan McGrath, Ron Kroichick,Bruce Jenkins, Chris Haft, Pedro Gomez,and Glen Dickey…
    A real indication of the haphazard standards and pure whim of many voters is exemplified by Walllace Matthews of ESPN New York who says, in regard to Jack Morris “You can argue that I should have voted for Jack Morris (I have in the past but wasn’t feeling it this year) “.Oh, Wally was having a bad hair day this year? We better make sure these voters have a good breakfast before voting.
    The The BBWAA is a total joke, some of the voters shouldn’t be allowed to cast ballots for the best pie eater in Crawford county, Texas..

    Bob Dutton of thge Kansas City Star is one of the few with a rational approach to voting the PED users in :
    “I plan to vote for all three. I understand the steroid/PED questions surrounding each one, and I’ve wrestled with the implications,” he wrote in an email.
    “My view is these guys played and posted Hall of Fame-type numbers against the competition of their time. That will be my sole yardstick. If Major League Baseball took no action against a player during his career for alleged or suspected steroid/PED use, I’m not going to do so in assessing their career for the Hall of Fame,” he said.

    • eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:11 am

      nice. and true, thanks Twin

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:12 am

      Dutton’s approach is probably the most fair and reasonable. Mathews statement is ridiculous.

    • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2013 at 11:29 am

      Dutton is right on…

  6. Flavor said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:10 am

    Here’s a FAQ from the BBWAA. I was thinking of the number voting for the NL CY–32 voters for that award.
    581 ballots returned last year for the HOF voting.

    http://bbwaa.com/voting-faq/

  7. eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:10 am

    I have been to Crawford County and there a mega pie-eaters there. tough ballot. Almost as tough as the best chilli in Odessa.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 10:47 am

      You’re right. Guys like Mathews would vote for the bustiest pie eater or some such nonsense… wait a minute, so would I..

  8. James said, on January 8, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    “Raines’ [HOF] case was hurt by his reluctance to run in all situations, as Rickey Henderson did. Raines seemed at times too concerned about preserving his stolen-base percentage.
    — Gerry Fraley”

    Hard to beat that rationale for sheer, awesome stupidity.

    • Flavor said, on January 8, 2013 at 12:06 pm

      how bummed are you about SHilling’s %?

    • twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 12:08 pm

      “As a player whose key Hall of Fame attribute was his speed, I want to examine a little further whether the use of a stimulant could have enhanced his performance whether he used it for that purpose or not.
      — Dave Buscema ”
      Another winner in the S.A.S. category.
      That explains how that durned paperboy out runs Zeke everyday…

  9. Nipper said, on January 8, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Yeah on ability alone Bonds belongs.

    • eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 1:00 pm

      you are correct, sir

  10. Chico said, on January 8, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    The holier then thou sports writers who profited off of steroid use act like nobody knew. MLB tries to act like they didn’t know, but we all know they did. Baseball was in trouble after the strike, these guys resurrect the game (at least for tv ratings and business), and then they throw them under the bus? If they don’t get in, then the HOF is a joke, imo.

    • Winder said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:24 pm

      Totally agree, the Saintly sports writers who act so appalled by the steroid era seem to have a personalized agenda which solidifies their own station and forgets about the game.

  11. eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    2013 the Dogers beat the Reds for the NLCS and lose to the Angels in the WS

    more brainy scenarios to come – watch this space

  12. eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Blue Jays top the Angels for the ACLS while the Giants top the Nationals in a brutal 7 games. Exhausted the San Francisco team loses in 5.

  13. eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    After losing the 2013 NLCS to the LAs manager Bruce Bochy kills Don Mattingly, undetected, with a machete.. The new Dogers TV franchise turns the story into a million dollar bonanza and the team buys 4 more superstars winning the 2014 regular season with 136 wins.

  14. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Bochy is arrested after making a second trip to the scene of the crime…

  15. eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    And the Giants franchise, after GM Sabean’s retirement, never win a pennant again. Until 52 years later in 2066 when a revitalised bullpen and a hard slugging third baseman lead a struggling pitching trio into the WS and over the San Jose Athletics avoiding an earthquake scare of 3.2 magnitude shaking the Google stadium. Popular Vice President of baseball operations Katie Vaughan praises the team for remembering 2010. And dedicates her success to her father 101 year old perpetual fan ‘Big Flavor’.

    • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2013 at 7:46 pm

      I just saw this. Some funny shit Ed. :-)

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:04 am

      I too just saw this…good stuff. Go Katie!

  16. unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    Who thinks Clemens gets in and Bonds doesn’t?

    It very well could happen. If so, then the HOF is by far the biggest joke in the history of jokes.

    Take my ballot. Please.

    • eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 3:13 pm

      see nipper’s 12:42 post

  17. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    AP did a straw poll with 112 voters expressing an opinion- 45 percent for Bonds, 43 percent for Clemens, 18 percent for Sosa.

  18. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    From my clicking around the web, it doesn’t look out of the question that nobody gets in.

    • eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 4:42 pm

      travesty – one of the greatest players in modern times!!
      shit shit shit shit shit shit

  19. Chico said, on January 8, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    Nate Silver’s piece on this subject by one of the smartest dudes out there.

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/suspicion-of-steroid-use-could-keep-bagwell-and-piazza-out-of-hall/#more-38164

    • zumiee said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:16 pm

      “Some writers seem to think they can profile steroid users, and some otherwise-deserving players seem likely to be denied a place in Cooperstown because of it.”

      In addition to being the “conscience of the sport,” the sportswriters are also wizards of physiognomy now. Kind of like the medieval times. “That player’s a witch!!”

      .

      • eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:37 pm

        I have read Harry Potter and no where does it say “Deny the wicked, and give no hall to them.” Magic is all around us. Barry Bonds was magic for many years.

  20. snarkk said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    How many of these writers knew about steroid use, but did nothing to investigate and report on it? Obviously, lots. Did Slusser and Killion have no idea about steroid use before 2000? Somebody actually asked McGwire about the Andro in his locker, and that was back in the late 90s, wasn’t it? Yet, years passed, and it took non-sports investigative reporters from the Chron to write Game of Shadows, and tear the cover off the situation. Baseball writers are bunch of hypocrites — they made a living off a game they had to know was full of steroids, but didn’t say squat. Now, they’ll vote against guys they covered because these players were “dirty”. That makes the writers anything but “clean”…

    • Chico said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:12 pm

      And Slusser and Killion are both ‘no’s’ on PED players.. Funny, I seem to recall looking at the twitter feed on the right side of the A’s drumbeat blog where Slusser was lobbying for Beane to bring back Bartolo Colon for this year, after his PED suspension, and they did, and she was very happy they did citing ‘an experienced veteran to compliment the young staff’ – idiots.

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:12 am

      The baseball writers (at least the ones who are pooh-poohing the players of the steroid era) are just as copious about the roid era as the owners and that dickweed they call a commissioner. They all buried their fucking heads in the sand when these same players brought the game back from its death bed. Hypocrites would be putting it lightly for those writers and the owners. Fuck ‘em all.

  21. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    I haven’t seen anything anywhere that even hints of the possibility that any of the steroid guys gets in, shit-there are a couple who might not get in even though they were never implicated, just “suspected, maybe, ya never know, perhaps…” it’s all bullshit, total hysteria.
    Tell you what- throw a spitter 50 times a game and it probably improves performance 10 times more than *any* drug. Imagine Clemens adding a spitball to his repertoire. He’d have won 500 with just Bayer aspirin as his other PED..

    • eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:15 pm

      and knocking Susan? wrong

  22. zumiee said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    I saw Lowell Cohn and Ann Killian on one of the Comcast sports shows. Their loathing of Barry Bonds is a palpable thing. There are SO many sportswriters relishing a chance to stick it to Bonds. It will take more than a generation before Bonds will have even a chance to get in the HOF.

    • eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:57 pm

      that generation is weak and working for the exclusion of a true athlete that has done everything in his sport.

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:15 am

      Those are the EXACT types of writers I mentioned above in my 7:12 AM post. The sad thing is that some of these writers actually write some good pieces about this wonderful sport, yet they are so damned wrong on the whole PED thing…pretty damned sad.

  23. unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    That’s my point. Bonds was an asshole and a jerk to the media for the most part. Ol’ lizard lips was a little better, but not much. I suspect he gets in a few years (10?) before Bonds.

    The pisser is EVERYBODY IN THE GAME KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON. The front office, the league, the owners, the media, the trainers, the players, and the fricking bat boys knew. Especially Used Car Bud. For the writers to suddenly grow a conscience about the integrity of the game after the fact is hypocracy of the highest order. Fuck all those writers.

    Truth be told, steroids likely saved the game from at least the loss of 3-4 teams to contrition. The A’s and Twins being on the top of that list. Who knows if it would have gotten worse? Attendance went WAY down after the strike and the cancelled world series. Fans were throwing monopoly money onto the field at numerous parks, and teams were hemmoraging money after they screwed the season.

    • Nipper said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:59 pm

      A loud BLEEP to the whole mess!

    • twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:20 pm

      There’s zero to suggest Clemens has any better chance than Bonds. They poll almost identically. . and Bonds didn’t throw his wife under the Ferrari F430…

      • unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 7:14 pm

        I don’t care what polling suggests. In my opinion Clemens gets in first by a lot of years. Clemens wasn’t convicted of anything. Bonds was, stupid as it turned out to be. No one remembers any of lizard boy accusing his wife iof juicing. Just that Bonds was convicted of obstruction and Clemens wasn’t stuck with anything.

      • twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:00 pm

        Well, the first results tomorrow will go a long way towards showing where they stand in that regard. Clemens certainly isn’t getting in now, ferchrissakes.
        “I don’t care what polling suggests”
        LOL…Dick Morris, Karl Rove, meet Unca_ Chuck…

      • unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:18 pm

        Gee, is there a difference between polls and results,Twin? How did Romney do in the election? He was leading half the polls out there.

  24. unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    Don’t know if Chi and Kevin made it to the trophy thing, but we couldn’t get in. We got there at 10 to 4 and the line was still huge. There was none chance of getting to see them. Got a pic outside the building that might show the top of one of the trophies.

    • Nipper said, on January 8, 2013 at 5:59 pm

      BLEEP lines!

    • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:44 pm

      That sucks to drive all the way to see the trophy and you can’t get in. Feel bad for ya Chuck.

      • unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 7:15 pm

        Thanks, Blade. It wasn’t too bad. Got to high-five some random people so all was not lost.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 7:03 pm

      Well, there’s 4 Olive Garden restaurants within 20 miles of the Sacramento Safeway. In that part of the state they call that “Restaurant Row”.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:17 pm

      Wow. That’s good and that’s bad. I’m wondering what it will mean for NYC. If it’s at Finnerty’s, the owner said he’d allow a book signing. Must call him tomorrow.

      • Macdog said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:46 pm

        Pawlie, are you going to NYC? I’m planning on being there. Last time they had it at the Hilton and Finnerty’s.

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:24 am

      Chuck – we decided NOT to go to yesterday’s trophy gig, mainly because my daughter wants to go with us. So, we put it off until February 28th (Lake County), so that my daugher can join us (hopefully less people at that viewing, too). Just an FYI if you decide to hit any of the other stops, I would suggest getting there a couple of hours BEFORE the start of the event if you want to have a better chance.

      In 2010, Demp and I went to the Capitol at 8 AM (this for a noon or so viewing). We were blessed that they were doing a photo shoot on the sidewalk in front of the Capitol (I have shared some of those picts here and on my FB page), and I was able to get photos with Larry and Bow Tie Billy and the Oracle. We also made a “centerfold” spread in the 2011 Giants yearbook (picture of Demp and me kneeling and taking a picture of the trophy). That whole gig on the sidewalk made the viewing in the Capitol very anti-climatic.

      • unca_chuck said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:52 am

        Ahhh. Yeah, I though maybe this time around there wouldn’t be the big crowds. Plus i didn’t want to pull my son out of school for this.

  25. eddacker said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    FIRST – Bonds was only an asshole to the media when the media wanted too much. Much after most of his career had already established itself. wrongo
    SECOND – He was playing in a game where many, especially the players he was playing against were doing the same thing, writers be damned
    THIRD – Bonds played the game, in a storm, with anything going on around him. FUCK ASSHOLES that cannot see that.

    • eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:43 am

      anything = everything – as he was a star, every game the sports press wanted a piece of him. It must have been like a third job. A job he got tired of. Who knew? fuck the press and any portrayal of Barry as a head case. Just not true in that way.

  26. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    As far as remaining in baseball, it seems that the use is no issue at all. Getting caught is *better* than being accused.

  27. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    One of Winnies cats had a litter under my fucking house a couple months ago. They won’t go away and they drove rats into my house. They’re driving me even crazier than I already am. They’re not even geting to food anymore. I can trace where they go and there’s nothing for them to get. It’s a Rat Dinner Dance without dinner. So far I’ve tried snap traps, “safe” snap traps, commercial repellents, and natural repellents. I got a couple with glue traps but I’m sorry I did, they’re cruel and I had to kill them myself after they got stuck. The only thing Mickey has done is get his paw stuck on one of the glue traps. Thank God, it came off easily. The glue traps were one of the dumbest and cruelest things I’ve ever done. Next I’m going try an adaption of the remedy for crabs- set fire to half the house and kill the rats with an ax when they run to the good side..

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:48 am

      Damn Michael…what a bitch. You have tried everything that I have tried (I agree with you on the glue traps). At this point, I would probably call a professional.

  28. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    Without intent or consciousness, I left off Bonds on my little quirky, idiosyncratic section of tiny poems of famous players in my poetry book. Had Musial, Williams, Mays, Doby, Marichal, Stargell, Clemente, Gibson, Carlton, Ruth, Mantle, Maris, Aaron, Dimaggio, and a few others. No special reason. Just didn’t think of Bonds or his dad. I give Bonds all his proper due as a hitter, but for me he was never that great a fielder. I did not get that. Granted, unlike you all, I saw him in relatively few games, on TV. But I was never impressed with his catching or his arm. And I have a very bad memory of him in the 2002 WS. In THAT GAME his gimpy knees or lack of hustle let a ball drop in that was very catchable. I’m in the minority, but that’s me. I also have another terrible memory of Bonds. See if you recall this. Bonds batting. Winning run on third. Darren Lewis? It’s a Saturday night. Against the A’s. The ball gets away from the catcher and the runner SCORES WHAT TURNED OUT TO BE THE WINNING RUN. But Bonds started arguing that he foul-tipped it. He wanted to win but on his terms, a homer, I guess. Before he could really argue I think Dusty ran out to shut him up. I was amazed. I said to the TV right then, either he just does not understand the game or he is that selfish a player. At that moment, I vowed to remember the incident if he ever got into the HOF. Call me narrow-minded, if you will. Or semi-delusional.

    • James said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:24 pm

      I would have preferred to see Bonds hit. His swing was better than any fucking poetry I ever read. Except Ted Berrigan.

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:35 pm

        Wow. Ted Berrigan! The Jesuit? Local Syracuse guy. Taught at my alma mater, Le Moyne. Regarding Bonds’s swing, during one All-Star game Costas or someone interviewed Bonds about batting. It was RIVETING. Stunning. Bonds compared his hitting to catching. It was this almost-mystical description that somehow made sense. He waited on the ball the way you would wait if you caught the ball. So imagine how fast his hands had to be! And his phenomenal hand-eye coordination. And remember this: he choked up slightly. To my knowledge, no slugger in the history of the game ever choked up.

    • snarkk said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:56 pm

      Bonds won 8 Gold Gloves…

      • unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:06 pm

        In left field. He wasn’t anything spectacular. His arm was below average, but he got to balls quickly.

      • snarkk said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:10 pm

        So, left field is easy? He was very very good as a young player. He made up for an average arm with a very quick release. As a young player, he was better than fine in LF…

      • unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:20 pm

        Easier than center or right.

      • snarkk said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:59 pm

        As a young player, Bonds was as good, probably better, LF defensively than Blanco. He could take an HR off the top of the fence with the best of ‘em. I don’t know what diff it makes that LF is less challenging than CF or RF. He doesn’t get dinged for HOF because he played LF…

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:02 am

      I don’t know…I don’t think there were too many times Bonds embarrased himself in the field. Sure, later in his career after the knee surgeries he didn’t have the range, but the dude did win 8 gold gloves.

      On a related topic, I always enjoyed Ken Burns work, including his 9/10 piece on baseball, but he has fallen in with all the jackass writers on the topic of Bonds and Clemens.

      http://tinyurl.com/a5ed3u8

  29. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    I compare steroids in baseball to the real estate boom. Everybody — EVERYBODY — loved it and looked the other way when it “worked” for them. In baseball, writers, broadcasters, players, owners, fans all loved it. Until they didn’t. And then, when they all got “religion” they got phony and sanctimonious about it. After the fact.

    • Flavor said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:29 pm

      Brilliant comparison…

    • Chico said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:32 pm

      Spot-on.

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:43 am

      One of the best analogies yet…good stuff, Pawlie.

  30. snarkk said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    Shea just said on KNBR he is not voting for Bonds. Yes for Biggio, Bagwell, and Piazza, and a few others. Steroids is the reason. He couldn’t explain how he knows that the guys he votes for did NOT use. Absolute crapola…

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:37 pm

      Crapola. A brand name for shitty crayons?!

    • Chico said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:33 pm

      Fuck that guy.

      • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:51 am

        Double Fuck that guy. Pompous assholes. Like many have said, during the “hey day” of the roid area…everyone was fat, dumb, and happy. As I said earlier, the players from that area saved baseball’s ass. And this is how the writers pay them back? Fucking self-serving assholes…

  31. paulinasia said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    In many parts of Asia, especially China and here in Vietnam, there aren’t any “small animals” anymore, just birds, snakes, and rats. Everything else was eaten into oblivion during the idiotic periods like China’s Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, and Vietnam’s Subsidization Era from ’75 to ’85, during which times millions of people died of starvation. But they don’t like rats here any more than anyone else anywhere else, and they’re very good at putting bait into a bucket, waiting until a rat jumps in to eat the bait, and then whacking the side of the bucket with a stick, causing the rat to jump straight up in the air, thus allowing a quick swing of the stick to knock the air-borne rat senseless. Kind of like T-ball. The first time I saw that, I just sat there, mouth agape. 2nd and 3rd times, I laughed my ass off at their proficiency of accomplishing this. After that, it just became part of life here. Either that, or they put out 2 little dishes for the rats: one of water, and the other of flour mixed with powdered concrete. You can guess what happens after that. Life is cheap here….. Good luck, Michael!

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:53 am

      LMAO at the t-ball analogy…too damned funny.

    • eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:27 pm

      beautiful, thanks Paul

  32. James said, on January 8, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    “how bummed are you about SHilling’s %?”

    I saw an interview with freshman Senator Cruz from Texas on the Newshour last night. He calmly spews right wing hate with the best of them, but I’m pretty sure he’s never been able to throw a 97 mph fastball at the letters one pitch and follow it with another at the knees on the outside corner. In other words, Senator Cruz has no saving grace.

  33. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    The steroid issue is only about PR. Like it or not, baseball will someday have to come to grips with the fact that PED use will become more undetectable,with fewer physical changes, and MORE enhancing. Many of the banned substances, such as testerone, should be allowed and regulated- they have beneficial uses for athletes recovering from injury, leading to a more efficient and capable physique. It’s no more inherently performance enhancing than many legal drugs,including cortisone injections, which are often, in fact, performance “de-hancing”, as they are used to enable an injured player to play despite the injury, not to enhance healing. Sports doctors, other physicians, and scientists will someday need to come up with a list of acceptable “PEDs” with minimal long term harm and ban others- detection of which would provoke the “nuclear option”- lifetime ban for first offense.
    Uh, IMO.
    Nitey nite.

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:57 am

      And why is it that the use of anabolic steroids, etc. as PEDs is getting all this pub, yet it is pretty common knowledge that there was a period where many players used methanphetamines in baseball. I swear…they’re all the biggest bunch of hypocrites in the world. Those who choose to not vote in Bonds, Clemens, etc. because of their use of PEDs…well FUCK EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!

  34. eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 4:00 am

    news of the trophies in Sacto

    http://www.sacbee.com/2013/01/08/5101439/sf-giants-world-series-trophies.html?mi_rss=Photo%20Galleries

    with my pleading for a London visit

    • chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:00 am

      Saw your comment in the Bee, Edd…way to go brother! Wishing you luck in getting those oracles across the pond!

      • Salty said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:50 am

        Would think that would be a pretty short queue. “Bloody baseball trophies? Pour me another pint.”

  35. Nipper said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:51 am

    HALL should be shut down. Keeping so many players out is wrong.

  36. Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:52 am

    It seems to me only the bulked up guys are taking the hits from the writers. It has been reported that a lot of people in sports (not just MLB) used them to assist in recovery time and not just to bulk up. From what I understand, bodybuilders began using PEDs in the early 1960s. So isn’t it conceivable that some HOFers used at some point, either knowingly or not. I could very well see team physician or other guys, giving players a concoction of amphetamines and testosterone to assist a player in recovery time or just to perk the dude up.
    In 1961 Mantle’s hip abscess was from a dirty needle on a shot of some sort of elixir, to perk him up. What was in that shot and was that the only shot he took? Don’t know.
    Was the red juice that Willie Mays had in his locker just liquid amphetamines? Don’t know.
    Was Aaron really clean? Maybe his reluctance to get into the PED argument is because he wasn’t, but we don’t know.
    Could Cal Ripken have used some sort of concoction to drag his ass out there every day? Don’t know.
    Could guys from even earlier years used PEDs? Yes.
    HOFer Pud Galvin, the first pitcher to win 300 games used an elixir that contained monkey testosterone in 18-fucking-89.

    Any sports writer that just singles out bulked up guys are full of shit (IMO).

    • Macdog said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:03 am

      That’s funny, Bozo, never knew that. ‘Ol Pud was a man way ahead of his time.

  37. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:53 am

    As to the idea that besides keeping out known PED users (bad enough), voters are supposed to disqualify guys that *might* have… that is the absolute crapola. One of the more hysterical reasons for keeping players like Bagwell and Piazza out is that the Tail Gunner Joes in the media want to wait *just in case* it later turns out they used, Hey, round up the ‘Roid Patrol- moonface guys-your’re outta the game. 25 or more HRs at age 35 or over- take a hike, 4 week recovery when the docs said 6 weeks- mandatory test. I’ll repeat- the entire “steroid era” is bogus, ignorant mass hysteria. What needs to be understood is that while anabolic steroids are indeed performance enhancing, there is simply no reasonable argument that enhancing performance is unfair. The list of legal performance enhancers would fill a book longer than “Remembrance of Things Past”, and be nearly as mind numbingly boring. And it’s absurdly hypocritical for anyone be bitching about level playing fields when there is such a disparity in team payrolls. Maybe we should ban PED users from the Dodgers and Yankees stock the Royals and Padres with all of them ( insert crooked grin)… bottom line as to the HOF- writers should get the hell out of the morality game- vote on the numbers. Virtually all athletes are better now than those from a half decade ago. Why? Performance enhancements…
    BTW, in assessing my unofficial vote- Palmeiro gets in first.

  38. unca_chuck said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:14 am

    Gimme a break,Twin. Food is a performance enhancer in that without it, you don’t do well in althetic endeavors. As does water. A bit simplistic, eh? A line has to be drawn somewhere. The reason performance enhancing is considered unfair is that it is done secretly. IF it was all above-board, then sure, let it all go. It isn’t, and it hasn’t been. Cocaine, speed, and amphetamines were available over the counter in the 20s. Again, if it was used by all, or nearly all, then the playing field was level. It isn’t and it will never be. If PEDs legalized, then guys will find other waysd to cheat the system. It’s the Merican way. If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying and all that.

    So, GM ineptitude = PEDs? Right. Small markets = steroids. Sure. Corporate greed = HGH? Got it.

    The hypocracy of the writers can be seen in a case like Fred McGriff. 500 HRs used to be the benchmark up to the 80s. He’s got 493 HRs/1550 RBIs/.284, and he did this before the “steroid era.” He’s barely getting a whiff despite solid numbers across the board. Better than Bagwell, should he get in anyway.

  39. Salty said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:17 am

    “In the spirit of Groucho Marx, who refused to join any club that would have him as a member, would not baseball’s 77-year-old gallery of rogues be the perfect fit for Bonds and Clemens?”

    http://tinyurl.com/adwpydl

  40. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:27 am

    I think it’s funny that Hank Aaron is squawkin’ about keeping the cheaters out but he had no problem powering down the greenies like they were m&M’s……

  41. Macdog said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:30 am

    Probably the best article I’ve read from one of the HOF voters:

    http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2013/01/mlb_hall_of_fame_for_the_very.html#incart_river

  42. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:35 am

    no freaking way McGriff should get in before Bagwell. Crime dog played 4 years longer than Baggs so that accounts for his extra bombs and RBI’s.
    But Bagwell dominated parts of his era, Mcgriff never dominated shit. Baggs won an MVP, finished 2nd and 3rd in two other votes. McGriff never sniffed the top spots of the MVP votes. Baggs had 5 seasons where he easily posted a 1.000+ OPS, McGriff had 2 seasons where he barely cracked 1.000 OPS.
    I was also surprised to see baggs psot 2 30+ sb seasons. Dude did it all. McGriff did a few things well, but was never a dominant player in his era……

    • Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:04 am

      If Bruce Hurst has a vote, Mcgriff gets in if for saving his life from a charging Kevin Mitchell.

  43. Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:53 am

    And to complete my boring assessment of the HOF voting (like you folks, I hope my blathering about this is done.). The Hall of Fame is not run by MLB, yes Selig, some HOFers and team owners are on the Board of Directors (Joe Morgan is the Vice Chairman) but it’s operated by private interests. Jane Forbes Clark is the Hall’s Chairperson, her grandfather is the one that started the museum. the Clark Foundation also owns 10,000 acres around Cooperstown and I’m pretty sure The Dakota in NYC besides a few other little things.

    The rule not to let in banned players is from the Hall itself not MLB (although I’m sure Selig and past Commissioners had something to say about it).

    The past President of the hall, Dale Petroskey a former assistant press secretary with the Reagan administration, was ousted in 2008. Was it because he canceled a 15th anniversary celebration of “Bull Durham” because of anti-war criticism by co-stars Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon? Or was it because Petroskey’s assistant, Darcy Harrington, and her sister, Kim Bennett, director of special events, abruptly left their jobs? Not sure, but it didn’t stop the Texas Rangers from hiring him.

    So who knows what all is going on in the Hall. What about the vote itself, well I did learn that they are counted by two guys, BBWAA secretary-treasurer Jack O’Connell and Ernst & Young partner Michael DiLecce. So a member of the BBWAA is one of the vote counters at least Ernst & Young is involved. Wait, did I mention that one of the Hall Directors, William L. Gladstone was chairman of Arthur Young & Company and the retired co-chief of its successor, Ernst and Young? Talk about turning hanging curves into hanging chads.

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:21 am

      So you’re saying Petroskey was having a three way with his assistant and her sister?

      • Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:17 pm

        Not sure dirt, but it looked like the old wink, wink, nudge, nudge kinda deal. Neither sister would comment for the record why they left.

  44. unca_chuck said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Bagwell is under the cloud though. McGriff isn’t. I don’t know. Bagwell never did it for me as a player. He gets in? Whoopie. The whole thing is a joke anyway.

    If ‘dominating parts of his era’ counts, then Dale Murphy should get in then. His career wasn’t solid all the way through due to injuries, but he dominated the game for 8 years. For his era (when 36 homers could win you the HR crown), he was at the top of the game.

    Again, this is why the writers are all totally full of shit. They laugh at pre-steroid numbers as being a joke, but are going to deny guys why are under the cloud of suspicion.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:15 am

      Fact is, there’s no such thing as “pre-steroid numbers”, only pre-steroid *testing* numbers…

  45. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:04 am

    HOFer Pud Galvin first used steroids in 1889. “Babe Ruth injected himself with extract from sheep’s testicles with the hope of increasing his power at the plate (and in the bedroom). He only attempted this once and it made him incredibly ill. The Yankees covered up the story by telling the press that the Babe had one of his famous bellyaches. To my knowledge they have never had “Sheep Testicles Day” at Yankee Stadium”. Any anyone paying attention at all knows they were used in the 1960’s. Get on the train back to Gooberville if you think they weren’t used in the nearly hundred years that ensued after that first documented use in 1889.
    “Better than Bagwell, should he get in anyway” Anyway? Anyway what? “Anyway” that some dumb fucks think he MAY have used? That’s how hysterical it’s become. With 200 user’s names known but not released, the only fair thing would be to not let anybody in if ignorance is to rule the day.
    “Taken under a physician’s care, steroids can allow people to heal faster, build muscle mass, and train longer than they would be able to otherwise. It can also be a lifesaver, particularly for people with HIV/AIDS and multiple sclerosis. A September 19, 2005, HBO Real Sports report, bucking the steroids hysteria rampant at the time, noted that there is not a single scientific study linking steroid use in adult men to death or to significant health risks.”
    The stories, including the one about Alzado are just that -stories. There has never been any credible link to his use of steroids and his brain cancer. In FACT- the gold standard for controlling the edema from brain tumors and the surgery on the tumors is a steroid- decadron- which saves thousands of lives a year.
    Passages in quotation marks are from David Zirin, sports editor for the Nation, frequent contributer to Outside the Lines, SI, and also the co-author with John Carlos of The John Carlos Story: The Sports Moment That Changed the World”. He was instrumental in getting Hank Williams, Jr. fired from MNF after Williams compared Obama to Hitler.

  46. Chico said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:26 am

    Nobody elected to the Hall. What a joke.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:27 am

      All because of steroid hysteria.

  47. unca_chuck said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:27 am

    The health benefits of steroids has nothing to do with what they were used for by baseball players, Twin. Seriously. Drug companies are in the business nominally of creating drugs that save lives. Unfortunately, Soviet bloc countries in the 60s were doing things differently. Balco was not in the business of easing the suffering of Aids patients. They were looking to make undetectable steroids. Do you think the “women’s” track and swimmming teams of East Germany in the 60s and 70s didn’t suffer terribly at the hands of their doctors?

    This is the same thing as professional athletes suddenly finding out they are all ADHD and need Ritalin.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:33 am

      The healing benefits, building muscle mass, and being able to train longer and are the main reasons as to why they are used, pal. Nothing wrong with that. The problems that arise, especialy among the young, are because they are used outside of a docor’s guidance because of the stupidity of criminalization.

      • unca_chuck said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:03 pm

        Wrong. People under a doctor’s care still suffer the consequences of steroid use. Not abuse.

  48. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:35 am

    Craig Biggio was the leading vote-getter, having been named on 68.2 percent of the ballots, but fell 39 votes shy of election. He was followed by Jack Morris (67.7 percent), Jeff Bagwell (59.6) and Mike Piazza (57.8).
    Clemens and Bonds finished eight and ninth respectively, Clemens receiving 37.6 percent and Bonds 36.2. Tim Raines (52.2), Lee Smith (47.8), Curt Schilling (38.8), Edgar Martinez (35.9) and Alan Trammell (33.6) were among the remainder of the also-rans. Sosa received 12.5 percent.

  49. unca_chuck said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:38 am

    OK, Mike. Pre steroid ERA numbers. Whatever. Tell me that 70% of the players in 1889 were juicing and I’ll call all of baseball history the steroid era. Sol you take the stance that turning a blid eye to all that was happening while testing was forbidden is what? All to be thrown out? Not to matter at all? What?

    1987 seems to be when the A’s got the ball rolling. I’d guess by 1991, the die was cast. For this discussion to go anywhere among the writers, they have to delineate when and how players were deemed to be juicing. Thus, Bagwell doesn’t get in becuase he was in the era of steroids and his inflated numbers weren’t inflated enough. How else does it go? To call the 60s or 70, or even the 80s on par with the 90s and 00s is ludicrous. Up until 1985 there was little to no steroid use. Under 2%.

  50. unca_chuck said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:51 am

    Remember when Arnold Schwartzenegger was standing on a ski slope and broke his femur in half? Steroids greatly decrease bone density. They also cause the overbuilding of muscles, which leads to shit like pulling tendons off of bones (hello Justin Smith). Steroids were great for my mom when she was battling emphysema. They gave her energy, an appetite, and helped with her breathing. Unfortunately, a small fall caused a fractured pelvis and 6 compressed vertebrae. Not applicable? Sure it is.

    The point being, legalizing or regulationg usage is all well and good. But you do that, and you open the door for more abuse by younger and younger people.

    When does legalized roiding start? 18? So, you’re talking high school? Perfect.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:13 pm

      More abuse than by being stabbed in the ass by his buddy? Right..

  51. snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:53 am

    My view on the ‘roids thing has turned 180 over the years, as more info was revealed as to the extent of the conspiracy to use ‘roids in MLB. The complicity of all the actors in MLB in facilitating their use is the overriding reason I think it should be a non-factor in HOF votes. Especially the complicity of the baseball writers, the people charged with the voting. If a writer is qualified to vote (something like 10 years in the baseball writing biz, and some vague qualifiers, I think), it’s likely that he/she was around in the ’90s in MLB locker rooms and pressboxes. Put every one of those writers under oath to qualify to vote for HOF. Did you know or suspect players were using ‘roids? Anyone swearing NO, keep their vote. Everybody else, disqualified from HOF voting. If guys from Andy Pettite to A-Rod all the way to FP Santangeroid to Gagne all say they juiced, it is ludicrous for these writers to use steroid use as a filter for their HOF votes. The use was so widespread, and tacitly blessed by management and the MLBPA, everyone in that era has to be suspected, cannot be assumed to be clean. If the vote today means that Biggio is considered a “clean” player during that era, then I want to know how all those voters know for a fact that he was clean. Or, Bagwell, or Piazza, or anybody else…

  52. Alleykat said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Nobody gets in…First time since 96.This Bud’s for you Selig.

  53. chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:54 am

    What a FUCKING JOKE. Those who voted should be embarrased…

  54. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 11:55 am

    If you want some reasonable conversation about steroids, I’m going to do a thread on my blog later. BTW, the era that saw the biggest what Nate Silver calls the “Power Spike”, was not the “Juiced Era” but the 1970’s Greenie Days and Nights Era…

  55. Salty said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:13 pm

    Well, my feeling is if they are going to exclude the obvious candidates, it would be unjust to include Biggio or Bagwell at this point. What proof is there they also didn’t use PED’s?

    • snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:14 pm

      No proof whatsoever. It’s all a hunch…

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:15 pm

      There no proof that anybody didn’t use. Disband the sport.

  56. snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    Here is the last paragraph of the Drumbeat article Susan Slusser just put out. She, the president of the baseball writers organization. She did not vote for Bonds or Clemens. She voted for Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza and Schilling.

    “As Rob Neyer of SB Nation notes, in 10 years or so, we will find out that some of the players voted into the Hall the past few years, this year, and the next few years did use steroids. He’s right, there’s no doubt about that, and it will be beyond unfortunate, but I think we have to go on what we have at the time and as of right now, none of these players I voted on have strong ties to steroids.”

    That is one of the most ludicrous statements I’ve read on this topic in a while. She’s admitting to not knowing if the guys she voted for were actually clean, but is nonetheless willing to use ‘roid use as the filter for her voting. So, if all 4 she voted for get in next year, then admit in 2018 to have been users, hey, what’s done is done. To me, that is an admission that the steroid filter is a joke, and so has become the HOF. And, BTW, does that mean she’ll vote Yes for guys that only have “weak” ties to steroids?…

  57. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Bagwell, Raines are all no brainers to be in, or should be. A huge part of the problem are some of the numbskull hockey and shuffleboard writers who are allowed to vote. While there is disagreement among even respectable writers, I suspect those 5 breeze in in a vote by baseball writers with 100+ IQs.

  58. eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    well, I am late to the debate
    one of the top five most talented players to ever put on a uniform,
    and not voted into the HOF? Bonds career pre 21st century should get hin there alone
    His story 2000 – 200retirement is just iceing on the cake
    the man was a champion

  59. dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    In his latest column Baggs makes reference to a player in the hall already that he knows to have been a juicer. I thought his inclusion of that statement in his column was sort of lame since he isn’t willing to back it up but I would bet there is more than one.

    I wasn’t a fan of Bonds, in fact he turned me off from baseball for quite a while, but you can’t deny his talent and there is no reason the shouldn’t be in the hall on the first vote. I suspect this year is a protest vote by the writers and we’ll see a slow trickle of players starting next year.

  60. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Again, since there is absolutely ZERO way to create a definitive performance or physical profile among even known users, Bagwell is only under the same cloud of suspicion as anyone in the game-every single one. Look at the list of known users- those implicated in the Mitchell report and those busted. A good argument can be made that steroids are equal opportunity performance drugs- enhancers and “de-hancers”…

    • eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:52 pm

      Barry’s performance pre-21st century (2000 on) was enough to garner HOF.
      most of the (non) voters were most likely looking at his end-of -career years (2000 – 2006)
      In which, as we all know, was greatness
      idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots idiots
      yeah, I am piss_edd

  61. eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    as I said on FB about the stupid cowardly voters from out free press
    fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them fuck them

  62. Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    The thing about the Mitchell report that has always bugged me is that the majority of it is based on just the few dealers that got busted. And as Director of the Red Sox maybe he should have known what his players were up to, he certainly should have known that the team instructed the players on how to use PEDs.

  63. eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    I will personally hunt down and kill every asshole voter.
    I have your names and your lack of spine will make my job easy.

  64. eddacker said, on January 9, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    Except on the days where my bosomy warm wife keeps me in bed.
    As she does

  65. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    This has nothing to do with the HOF, but I love this so much, I have to post it. If you haven’t seen it, you’ll love it too.

    • eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:04 am

      Piers is not my favorite Brit, but this video is so
      Brits believe you wait until the speaker has spoken
      The guest in this show was never going to be quiet
      Yes, knives are much more used in street crime here
      but the victims often live unlike gun crime

  66. wswin said, on January 9, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    the hof voting is a farce.

  67. snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    This is the link to Baggarly’s vote and his rationale for voting for Bonds. Good stuff. A very rational approach, IMO just about the only one that can be taken, not to mention he agrees with me. ;) I don’t read Baggs much anymore, which is a shame. Just seems too much of an effort, for some reason, to find his stuff at that very jumbled up CSNBA website.

    http://www.csnbayarea.com//blog/andrew-baggarly/breaking-down-ballot-barry-bonds-and-hof

  68. Alleykat said, on January 9, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    Does this bring up the value of Johhny LeMaster getting in now? With his Don Knotts body,no way possible he was “Juicing”

  69. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    new thread


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