THE San Francisco Giants Blog

Hall of Hypocrisy Vote Comes Out Today

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 8, 2014

…. and I couldn’t care less. I’ve glazed over a few articles written by pontificating writers who are still yammering on about *character still matters* like they know the character of the men on the ballot. They know nothing. The only thing they know for sure are the numbers on the back of their baseball cards. And that’s all the hall of fame should ever have been about. Factoring other things in, things that are assessed with conjecture, was always the wrong way to do it. Because once you exclude one player for cheating or lying or just being an overall bad dude but you let in another player who lied, cheated or was an overall bad dude but you didn’t know they were, the whole system for entry needs to be re-evaluated.

If you don’t like a guy because of how he got to 700+ home runs, that’s fine. But you don’t know how he got there any more than you know how Maddux got to 355 wins. If Maddux was beating his kids after every one of those wins would you still vote him in? If he was taking Adderall without a prescription, would he get your vote? Once you start evaluating character you go down a road that has no ending. You don’t know how you got there and you don’t know where you’re going. Because in the end, you simply “don’t know” unless you are the person you’re voting for. And they can’t vote for themselves.

You can’t have a condition for entry related to character if you have even a single liar, cheater or overall bad dude already elected into the hall of fame. Whether you know they are or not, their inclusion invalidates that condition. It just does.

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  1. Chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:50 am

    Excellent thread, Craig. Could not agree more. With that said, should Pete Rose be in the HOF? (I know this has been kicked-around a number of times here on the Flap…just curious how the Flap community feels on this one).

  2. pawliekokonuts said, on January 8, 2014 at 7:30 am

    Can we subtract points for Maddux’s *boringness* quotient?

  3. willedav said, on January 8, 2014 at 7:34 am

    Chi, no to Petey. Gambling is wrong, tho it’s long suspected a few others who gambled did get in, and those punished by Landis weren’t all guilty.
    Unfortunate that so many of local writers like Slusser, Killion Purdy etc. are still so down on Bonds and write such sanctimonious drivel every time HOF vote comes up. They saw what he did on the field and at bat, which was unparalleled in his era, but choose to hide behind a smokescreen criteria to deny him his due. Pathetic.

    • Nipper said, on January 8, 2014 at 7:55 am

      Yes “pathetic.” Bonds should be in. They should close down this thing and bolt the doors.

  4. Flavor said, on January 8, 2014 at 8:03 am

    gambling on your team is like the one thing you are absolutely not allowed to do. That goes beyond being a bad dude. That’s about more than character. It’s THE ONE THING YOU CAN’T DO. I’ve changed my tune about this over the years. I used to think Rose should be in but not anymore.

  5. Bozo said, on January 8, 2014 at 8:09 am

    I agree Flav, all good points. I don’t believe Cal Ripken Jr was clean can I have him kicked out? I think the Babe was using cocaine as a weight loss and party enhancer, can I have him kicked out? No, just because I as a fan think something is true that doesn’t make it so, but a sportswriter can vote without proof. Hell they can not vote for a guy simply because the player blew off an interview or because he called one of their colleagues a fucking liar. I think someone should investigate the reporters, I wonder how many have been drunk on the job, on steroids or other drugs not permitted in ML ballparks?

    Chi, in my opinion Rose goes in as a player. I have never heard of him breaking the gambling rule as a player plus I actually feel the Hall is a shrine to great players, the commissioner shouldn’t have a say in the matter unless the Hall is just the commissioner’s museum. If the Hall is for the fans, great players should be inducted, warts and all. Again, that’s my opinion, I doubt Selloutig agrees, hell I think that guy would put Marvin Bernard in for the right price from Fox.

  6. chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 8:34 am

    WillieD and Flavor – I respect your points, but I agree with John…I think Rose should be in “as a player.” And good point Clown…for whom was the hall created? The fans or the writers? Fuck the writers…they have things so fucked up it is unreal. I still would love to go, just to see the history of the game. Regardless of all the screwed-up shit that has happened around baseball, the game itself is still (and always will be in my opinion) magic.

    • Bozo said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:04 am

      years ago they had a traveling exhibit at one Market plaza, I worked close by and stopped in one day. Many cool things, old catchers equipment, a rent check Cobb had written out, Willie’s and other player jerseys. I stood mesmerized in front of the Babe’s jersey and it was like magic, chi. I would also like to go someday and if it’s anything like the magic I felt that day or the magic I feel each year when walking into a ballpark, I won’t care about the politics of the place.

      • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 10:58 am

        Absolutely. Screw all the politics and blowhards. I want to go just to immerse myself in the history of the game of baseball…cut out all the fucked up stuff that has happened around the game, and the game remains the same…a thing of true beauty.

  7. dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:12 am

    When the all time hits leader is not in the hall it is a joke to me. I think Rose should be in. Bozo makes a good point and I agree with Rose being in as a player but don’t the summaries include everything about the individual’s contribution to the game? It would seem strange to not include his coaching stint. If Rose wasn’t such a douchebag he would probably be in already. I don’t agree with it but his entry will be posthumous.

  8. willedav said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:19 am

    Hey, Rose strictly as a player, first ballot. I loved the guy, esp when he first came up with Reds and tommy harper.
    But, you throw in with the gamblers game is forever compromised. Say he has a buddy on the Cards, and he calls and tells him I got $50K on the phils today, help me out. And a double play ball gets thrown into RF, or a HR hitter gets a first pitch fastball down the middle, or a sign gets missed and runner gets thrown out, or a sore armed reliever gets brought in… there are so many little things that could go wrong and influence a game and make everyone some $$$. Not to mention of course the days Rose doesn’t bet on his team or another.

    The ASU kid Steven Hedake Smith admitted shaving points while he was their best player—turnovers, missed FTs etc to keep score close vs. underdogs so he and gamblers could collect. Game is forever ruined for everyone, fans included, once gambling is allowed in, and that is Rose’s sin.

    • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 11:00 am

      I won’t argue the taint that gambling can (and has) put on the game, but I still feel that Rose should be in simply on his merits as a player.

  9. Macdog said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:23 am

    Another like-minded argument against writers voting for the HOF: http://tinyurl.com/ptfsn2q

    Count me in for putting Pete Rose in — and I have no doubt he probably bet on games as a player.

    • snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:36 am

      So some dude named Ken Gurnick of mlb.com says he voted only for Jack Morris, and voted for nobody else, left the other 9 votes blank. He’ll not vote for anybody who played in the PEDs era. Praytell, when did the “PEDs era” begin? Is there a certain date? How about 1900? How does he know Jack Morris did not use PEDs? You could say at least this guy has a logical approach, more than most. Then, when you dissect it, his approach is as stoopid as the rest. I agree with the article. It is time to take the HOF vote away from “the writers”. That comes from the era where the “writers” were the guys guaranteed to see the games, before TV and replay and every game being available to see. The HOF doesn’t need “writers” anymore to be the HOF gatekeepers. I would trust a HOF vote to all the Flappers here more than the “writers”. Sorry, I don’t believe Susan Slusser and her idiot, hypocritcal colleagues like Ann Killion and Murry Chass are any more qualified for this task than I am, or anybody else here on this blog that knows ball, and has followed it for a lifetime…

      • Macdog said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:44 am

        I, too, was bothered by the guy’s stance in the AP story I read yesterday:

        Ken Gurnick of MLB.com, a former reporter for the Los Angeles Herald Examiner, said Tuesday the only player he voted for was Jack Morris, on the writers’ ballot for the 15th and final time after falling 42 votes shy last year.

        “To me, I didn’t exclude Maddux. I excluded everybody from that era, everybody from the Steroid Era,” Gurnick said. “It wasn’t about Greg Maddux, it was about the entire era. I just don’t know who did and who didn’t.”

        Gurnick said Morris also was the only player he voted for in 2013 and added he intends to abstain in future elections.

        “Some people quibble over when the era starts, but the bulk of his career was in my opinion well before all of the widespread use of performance-enhancing drugs,” Gurnick said.

  10. pawliekokonuts said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:43 am

    It raises the frigid temp outside ever so slightly when I declare silently unto myself: “Hey, pitchers and catchers report next month, somewhere warmer than here.” THWACK.

    • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 11:05 am

      33 days until the pitchers and catchers for YOUR San Francisco Giants report to Scottsdale! Love the “THWACK!” Cannot wait to hear it (ball on bat, ball popping the catcher’s mitt, etc.).

  11. snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 10:03 am

    I respected Rose as a player. Didn’t like him because he was a jerk, but respected him because he could ball, and did it well without being the most physically gifted guy around. For his play, obviously he is a HOFer and an all time great. But, like BF says, he violated the Big No No. You can’t bet on the game when you’re in it. He admitted he bet on MLB games while a manager. That is just beyond the pale. You can’t be into Tony Soprano for $100Gs while you’re a player or manager, but definitely not as a manager since you control how the game is played. So Pete stays out, but that doesn’t stop him from signing his memorabilia shit in Vegas…

    • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 11:04 am

      Yep…I get it. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I think he belongs in the HOF simply on his accomplishments as a player.

  12. snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 10:12 am

    This guy has some interesting ideas about the HOF.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10155321/breaking-baseball-hall-fame-ballot

  13. unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2014 at 10:28 am

    Rose was a cracker and a prick as a player, but he played hard. No one really likjed him from what I’ve heard. Sure, he’s a great hitter. Played the game ‘right’ blah blah blah. Fuck him, though. He doesn’t get in. Why? Because he only came clean to sell his fucking book. After 14 years of throwing everyone around him under the proverbial bus, he’s contrite? Right, Pete, Go beat off on the corner and sell your autograph.

    Thing is, that article I posted said that there were huge shadows around Rogers Hornsby, Cobb, and a few others that they were throwing games but is was glossed over.

  14. unca_chuck said, on January 8, 2014 at 10:29 am

    He falls in the Lance Armstrong field of way too little way too late. Fuck ‘em both.

  15. Bozo said, on January 8, 2014 at 10:53 am

    For violating rule 21, yes, I agree that Rose should be banned from baseball. That rule is posted in every clubhouse (usually above the poker table, kidding) But I just think the Hall should not be considered part of the ban. Using the HOF’s own words “The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is home to the greatest stars and the history of the game”. It doesn’t say our censured history of the game and most of the greatest players. Ban Rose from every ballpark in America, put a chip in his TV so he can’t watch games on the tube, whatever, but to say he was not considered one of the greatest players and/or he wasn’t part of the history of the game is bullshit.
    From Wikipedia, “Following the banning of Pete Rose from MLB, the selection rules for the Baseball Hall of Fame were modified to prevent the induction of anyone on Baseball’s permanent suspension list, such as Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson”. I guess it wasn’t official before that, kinda like this whole PED Era (which goes back to the 50s for steroids and probably way before that for testosterone).
    I just don’t think the Hall or the writers should be allowed to censure the history of the game, that to me is like a history museum leaving out the Plague because it was a nasty time.

    • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 11:08 am

      Well said, and I whole-heartedly agree!

    • snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 1:30 pm

      I don’t know if there is nothing in the HOF museum on Rose. Maybe Pawlie or anybody else that’s been there recently can confirm. He’s not been inducted into the HOF there, but I don’t know if that means he’s not MENTIONED there in any of the exhibits or discussions. I tend to doubt he’s not mentioned in any exhibits/discussions of the Big Red Machine era, but I could be wrong…

  16. twinfan1 said, on January 8, 2014 at 11:46 am

    Super Bowl Buffet for the brave of heart..

    http://zekesplace.wordpress.com/2014/01/08/super-bowl-buffet-for-the-brave-of-heart/

    bug

  17. snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    Well, the BBWAA has identified and confirmed 3 non-PEDs users: Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas.
    Biggio was 2 votes short, so I guess that means he was not cleared yet of being a PEDs user. Next year, he’ll likely be cleared…

  18. snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    Susan Slusser voted for only 8 players. Left two slots blank. Kent excluded. What a joke…

  19. Flavor said, on January 8, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    I’d like to point out that the BBWAA inducted the same 3 as the Baseball Blogger’s Alliance (pre-recount).

    • pawliekokonuts said, on January 8, 2014 at 1:00 pm

      Whew.

  20. pawliekokonuts said, on January 8, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    In other news, GOP presidential hopeful Chris Christie undone by Bridgegate. “Time for some traffic problems in Fort Lee.” Eight words in an email. That’s all it takes. You got a problem wit dat?

  21. Bozo said, on January 8, 2014 at 1:22 pm

    This is from Flannery, so Flav, I hope you don’t mind the plug (great cause, Giants related etc).

    Hey Friends of The Fringe, I need a favor. This show Thursday night Jan 23rd at the Fox Theatre in Redwood City needs to be promoted. I don’t hit the t.v or radio waves till the day before, this is the show that can make some big money for the Stows. If I get close to selling it Jeremy Affeldt will also match it and write a $25,000 check. This show also will have my incredible band, with many special guests. Dennis Caplinger, Doug Pettibone, A.J Degrasse, Barbara Nesbitt, Randi Driscoll, Chuck Brodsky, The McClains, and San Francisco’s own Hot Buttered Rum. Please let friends know about this if you would. All shows that week are going to be different and I promise on fire, but this first one at the Fox will be as big a show as I know how to put on. I don’t want anyone to miss it. Thanks. Tim

    • chipower9 said, on January 8, 2014 at 2:04 pm

      The Flan Man is so cool…love all the great things he does, esp…for Brian Stow.

      Speaking of music, we’re seeing Mark Hummel’s Blues Harmonica Blowout tonight (with John Mayall and a number of other blues greats). 6th row, center section…should be an awesome show. Early next month will see Hot Tuna (acoustic) with David Lindley followed two days later by Devil Makes Three.

      • Bozo said, on January 8, 2014 at 2:10 pm

        Chi, I think Flan has something scheduled for the Freight and Salvage as well.

        Hot Tuna and David Lindley, that’s nuts. If I was in SF that’s one I’d try and make for sure.

      • stixwiz said, on January 8, 2014 at 2:45 pm

        Chi: My favorite Blues venue is the Fargo (Maris’ hometown) Blues Festival, held at the Newman Outdoor Field (home of the Northern League independent Redhawks). This year it is tentatively scheduled for Aug. 15-16. Info at fargobluesfest.com. Caught Mayall there a couple times. Last year Walter Trout made another appearance and Charlie Musselwhite was the other featured performer. Been there 8 of the last 9 years.

        Over the years features have included the Jeff Healey Band; Lamont Cranston; Canned Heat; Eric Burdon and the New Animals; Marshall Tucker; Coco Montoya; John Lee Hooker Jr.; Johnny Winter; Pinetop Perkins; Maria Muldaur; Tab Benoit; Ray Manzarek and Bernard Allison.

        Real laid back venue. Camping available. Have met folks from three Canadian provinces, half a dozen states and several Indian reservations. Bring your own lawnchair or blanket. Move around as much as you like. Backstage passes are a steal of a deal. Great photo ops.

        Stickman has become a backstage and around the crowd fixture at the Bluuzfest, sometimes carrying on like a crazy kid, occasionally making the moves with the original Bo Diddley Dancing Stick which got initiated at one of the great performer’s last ever appearances where he was featured at the annual blues fest sponsored at the Seven Clans Casino.

      • snarkk said, on January 9, 2014 at 12:31 am

        Ray Manzarek passed away, BTW, in 2013, mid-year, I think. Keyboardist for the Doors. I had the chance to hear him at a small venue in the Ebay early in 2013, but forgot and missed it. Major bummer that he’s gone. 74 years…

  22. stixwiz said, on January 8, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    Maybe the BWA should be replaced by a panel drawn from MLB G.M.’s, managers, coaches and players (all retired). They would be nominated by and voted in by their peers. They are the ones who truly know what went down on the field and who contributed at a HOF level.

    • snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 2:44 pm

      You’re onto something. Time to take this HOF voting away from the BBWAA. These guys are selling ballots, sending in blank ballots, joke voting and disagreeing on what the standards mean for qualified candidates…

  23. DJLoo said, on January 8, 2014 at 2:46 pm

    Someday the Giants will have a run taken off the scoreboard due to Flannery’s interference near the plate.

    • Bozo said, on January 8, 2014 at 3:08 pm

      He just had knee surgery, so he might not be running with the bulls anytime soon.

  24. gianthead said, on January 8, 2014 at 3:56 pm

    Put Canseco on the voting committee. What is most ridiculous is that these voters can vote completely anonymously. If they had their votes publicized and the resulting grief for those sanctimonious decisions not to vote for someone like Maddux, I think they will puss out and vote for those truly deserving.

    • Chico said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:27 pm

      Yep.

  25. wswin said, on January 8, 2014 at 4:00 pm

    Here’s a very simple suggestion and solution. If you are not banned from the game for life at the time of voting, you get voted on your accomplishments on the field.

  26. paulinasia said, on January 8, 2014 at 4:18 pm

    As for the Hall of Fame (and c’mon, Bonds was famous, wasn’t he?, WTF is the problem?), I wish someone, somebody obviously very rich but a huge baseball fan, could open a competing Baseball Museum. Where no judgment is made about the person, just all the “stuff” related to THE best players of the game. Photos, gloves, video, just showing the great players playing great. The all-time hits leader and the all-time home run leader would be front and center in this museum of my dreams.

    • snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 4:55 pm

      It may happen. Why not? The current HOF is nothing but a private organization. It doesn’t own baseball. Nothing should stop another one from starting, and making up its own rules. The current one did…

  27. paulinasia said, on January 8, 2014 at 4:25 pm

    And, any baseball writer who ever voted for Bonds for MVP and Clemens for Cy Young is required to vote them into the Hall. Hypocrites.

  28. snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 5:31 pm

    Heck, why not start the Flap version of the BBHOF? Every year at the Flapalooza we elect a new class. Size of class limited only by the number of beers slugged by Flappers. Morris doesn’t get in? Drink another beer, open up a space…

  29. blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2014 at 5:58 pm

    Rose not in because of gambling? Hmm. Interesting. As Bozo said, I could give a rat’s ass if MLB/Commissioner bans him from baseball, but him not being in the Hall of Fame is ridiculous. Rose would run over his grandmother to score from 2nd to home plate. That’s enough evidence for me to believe he never cheated his team mates or himself with regard to betting on a game to lose . . . Operative word is LOSE. Dude played hard every single second he was on a ball diamond.

    Complete idiot? Sure. However, baseball isn’t known for rocket science intellect and morality. Just a quick review . . . I would say that more than half have cheated on their wives or girlfriends; played hung over; done drugs; voted Republican; cheated on their taxes; gambled on other sporting events or games of chance; slept in on Sunday versus going to church; ignored or even told a kid to get lost when the kid asked for an autograph; and, looked the other way, instead of helping an old lady cross the street.

    Hmm. Sounds like a lot of stuff we have done, doesn’t it?

    • snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:03 pm

      I’ve NEVER voted Republican. Get real, what kinda man do you think I am, blade ?… ;)

      • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:16 pm

        lmao. Well, I would hope that anyone who has attended Cal-Berkeley hasn’t voted for the dark side.

      • Chico said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:17 pm

        Sneek? If so, good stuff today man..

    • Chico said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:18 pm

      @ Blade – never have and probably never will ;)

  30. Chico said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:15 pm

    Just a copy and paste about what I had to say about it on Slusser’s blog.

    The BBWAA should be stripped of it’s vote. They’ve made the whole thing a joke. Lets just forget the past even happened, and pick and choose guys who we think were clean (even though the circumstantial evidence raises red flags about some players), and lets Vilify guys who apparently took PEDs, but never tested positive for them.. And then you have guys like Ken Gurnick going against Biggio, a player who busted his tail for 20 years, just because he can..

    “Because I do not know the full extent of that time period – who used, who didn’t – I have trouble rendering judgment on the guilty knowing the same exist among the presumed innocent. And so it’s a matter of wiping out the whole era, as Gurnick chose, or believing in the Hall of Fame’s ability as a history museum to properly address the issues of PEDs on the plaques of the known guilty.

    History is history, even at its ugliest, and the players who embodied it deserve recognition for their accomplishments no matter the transgressions.” – From a writer worthy of a vote.

  31. blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    Paulinasia, still around? Give me a shout via Yahoo Messenger. Thanks! :-)

  32. SanDawg said, on January 8, 2014 at 7:23 pm

    A friend of mine once got cock-blocked by Tom Glavine at a party in LA—and Glavine wasn’t even there!
    It was an afternoon BBQ type deal in Santa Monica back in the 90’s. We showed up at 3:00 and by 3:30 he was off to the races with this hot chick. The rest of us were quite incredulous at how quick and easy it was all coming for him. All of a sudden, her girlfriends came around and she announced she had to leave. He was stunned. When he asked why she had to leave, she said “Tommy Glavine’s in town and we always go see Tommy when he’s in LA.” We’ve all loved/hated Glavine ever since.

    • snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 7:48 pm

      Money talks…

    • blade3colorado said, on January 8, 2014 at 8:59 pm

      I was in Madrid, Spain around 1976 and that happened to me with a professional tennis player. I was having a cognac (nasty stuff, but their national drink) in the hotel bar, attempting to work my “magic” with this nice, hot tourist babe. Nine times out of ten, I would have led her up to my hotel room . . . Nope, Mr. Tennis comes in and sits his ass right next to us at the bar and does his “cock block” moves (great term SD) which trumped my BS moves. :-)

      To this day, I still don’t know who this asshole was, as I didn’t follow tennis.

      • snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 9:49 pm

        40 love THIS, blade… ;)

  33. Macdog said, on January 8, 2014 at 7:37 pm

    The road must’ve finally caught up to the Warriors. There can be no other explanation for losing to the awful Nets, who actually are playing a little better of late (4 in a row). It didn’t hurt the Brooklynites that Garnett played one of his better games this season. Still an impressive trip for the Dubs going 6-1 through the East, including the win over Miami. And my god, Curry is fun to watch: 15 in the 4th, and he assisted on another basket, so he accounted for 17 of the 22 4Q points. If you’re rooting for the other team, you just hope and pray when he lets loose with a 3, especially when he gets fouled like he did late tonight.

  34. snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    Nice story on Maddux.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/greg-maddux-a-hall-of-fame-approach-that-carried-an-average-arm-to-cooperstown/2014/01/07/fdd7ae82-77d3-11e3-af7f-13bf0e9965f6_story.html

    I wish Timmy would talk to him and hang out with him for a few days; learn a few things…

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 9, 2014 at 7:02 am

      Nice link. Good article.

  35. snarkk said, on January 8, 2014 at 10:09 pm

    Ann Killion, HOF voter.
    Voted for four (4) people on her ballot. Leaving 6 places blank. All three other panelists voted for 10.

    http://www.csnbayarea.com/giants/karmic-payback-haunts-hall-fame-process

    Exhibit A offered for taking the HOF vote away from the BBWAA members…


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