A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Hall of Lame?

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 6, 2011

Everyone is running around all giddy about Blyleven making the HOF. I don’t really get it. He was an all-star two freaking times (out of 22 seasons)  in his career. That shows how he stacked up against his peers. His numbers just don’t say “Hall of Fame” to me. And what do we think about the HOF if he gets in and Clemens doesn’t? No Rose, no Bonds, no McGwire. Just throw out numbers all together and I’m down with Blyleven getting in but otherwise, I don’t think he should have been voted in……..

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  1. Giant Head said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:58 am

    I respectfully disagree Flav….

    When Byleven retired, he was third all-time in total strikeouts. For nearly a 100 years in baseball by the time he retired, I think that fact alone would be worthy of hall of fame stature. He won 287 games, 13 more and he hits 300, we would not be even arguing about this.

    But look at his stats in his first 11 years in baseball playiing mostly on .500 type of teams. He started as a 19 year old, that is impressive as well. But these are his ERA numbers in those first 11 years:

    ’70 – 3.18 (again as a 19 year old)
    ’71 – 2.81
    ’72 – 2.73
    ’73 – 2.52
    ’74 – 2.66
    ’75 – 3.00
    ’76 – 2.87
    ’77 – 2.72
    ’78 – 3.03
    ’79 – 3.60
    ’80 – 3.82
    ’81 – 2.88 (only started 20 times in a strike year)
    ’82 – hurt only starts 4 games
    ’83 – 3.94
    ’84 – 2.87 (goes 19-7 as a 34 year old)
    ’85 – 3.26

    That is a career 3.01 ERA in his first 15 years. If he retired then, I think his numbers would have been Hall worthy. If Licnecum puts up these numbers in his first 15 years, I think we would all argue he shoudl be in the Hall of Fame.

    But Byleven caps it off with a 17-5 season in 1989 with the Angels with a 2.73 ERA when he is 38 years old.

    • Giant Head said, on January 6, 2011 at 8:07 am

      Sorry, I pushed it out to his first 16 years in baseball….

  2. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 8:50 am

    I’m fairly big on comparing players to their peers. To me, especially if you are a pitcher, the number of all star games you make does give you an indication of how you stacked up against your peers. 2 out of 22? Sorry, Zito has done better than that…..

  3. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 8:52 am

    Brad Penny pitching for the Giants seems like nothing more than a dream….

  4. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:05 am

    and fuck ERA< it's a dumb stat. And the ERA's of the 70's can't be remotely compared to the ERA's of today's pitchers for obvious reasons that you all know.

  5. Rough Trade said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:17 am

    How about ERA of the 60’s? or 50’s? If it’s a comparison of his peers, ERA today is irrelevant.

    He was certainly every bit as good as Sutton. Fewer wins, but he pitched for inferior teams.

    5,000 innings, 60 shutouts, 242 CG’s, 3,701 K’s….And, he had that amazing curveball.

    Welcome Bert.

  6. TedSpe said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:22 am

    Another great Days Till Pitchers and Catchers Report pic, Flav

    • xootsuit said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:47 am

      “All I know about him is that he’s missing the tip his little finger on one hand.”
      “Like this?”

      • alleykat said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:56 am

        Well then it means Bert has a little “Ronnie Lott” in his makeup that’s good enough for me.He’s definitely a HOF!

  7. stixwiz said, on January 6, 2011 at 10:00 am

    Rikalbert belongs. All-Star nominations is a very limited metric. Often those bids go to players and pitchers who have a good season or two or three and then flame out or simply fizzle into general mediocrity. Blyleven was among the best at his trade for season after season. General excellence combined with longevity in the game is a powerful combination denoting HOF status.

    I’m not sure McGwire or Sosa belong in the Hall. They were decent enough players, but essentially unidimensional one-trick ponies. Rose, Bonds and Clemens belong in the Hall and ultimately will achieve that status. Perhaps Selig needs to be put out to pasture first. He is the most guilty party in re the steroids scandal. Bonds, in fact, deserves to be elected to the Hall in his first year of eligibility. Probably won’t happen, but that’s politix.

    • TedSpe said, on January 6, 2011 at 10:27 am

      There was a time when anyone with 400+ homers, one trick pony or not, got in.
      Then came Dave Kingman, then came Darrell Evans and now, it’s a crapshoot

  8. xootsuit said, on January 6, 2011 at 10:32 am

    The Dodgers refused to allow the Giants to open at home on 3/31. Wonder if they’ll use Padilla in the first series in LA?

  9. Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:06 am

    I kinda equate it to Juan Marichal and the fact he never won a Cy Young. There was a hell of a lot of great pitching in the 60s and 70s. Blyleven? I don’t give a shit either way, but he had a nasty curveball, but played on a boatload of shitty teams.

    He suffered much the same fate as Matt Cain a few years ago. He didn’t get wins that he likely could have had be been on better hitting teams.

    Wins and losses is a less imoprtant stat than ERA. Lookk at King Felix.

    • TedSpe said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:17 am

      Wins and losses is a less imoprtant stat than ERA. Lookk at King Felix.
      —————————————————-
      Look at Tim Lincecum

    • TedSpe said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:20 am

      I should elaborate. Lincecum actually has a good W/L percentage. What I meant was he won the CY with 15 wins

  10. James said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:12 am

    Ryan provides another point of comparison. Blyleven had a better lifetime WHIP, park adjusted ERA, and winning percentage.

  11. delmardennis said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:16 am

    I don’t even know if this is news, but Steve Holm signed with the Twinkies.
    Looking better and better for another season of NO Whitey.

    This also just in: Jed York is the devil. I want my soul back you miserable cocksucker.

  12. blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:33 am

    Not going to argue or defend Blyleven’s credentials for being in the HOF (nor, World War I, II, Vietnam, Obama being born in U.S., Health Care legislation, etc., etc.).

    Blyleven BELONGS in the HOF. Moreover, he is IN the HOF. Next.

  13. delmardennis said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:35 am

    Renteria goes to the REDS.

    • swickman said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:13 pm

      From the bottom of my heart, thank you for the World Series, Mr. MVP!

  14. zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:50 am

    “ERA< it's a dumb stat."

    BF, I think that can be sort of true with relief pitchers. Obviously, there should be a better way to account for a reliever allowing inherited runners to score. But with a starter, I think it's a viable stat. He might leave some runners on at the end that a reliever allows to score, but I don't mind that a pitcher gets punished for allowing those runners on in the first place.
    And ERA is even more viable for the first half of Blyleven's career, when starters pitched more innings of a game, on average.

  15. snarkk said, on January 6, 2011 at 11:51 am

    I’m for Blyleven in the HOF. 60 shutouts? That means he had some talent, was really durable. That and the strikeouts plus curve ball is good enough for me. And he played on a bunch of crap teams, so his win total on a decent team(s) would probably be over 300. The main reason he didn’t get in earlier is that he’s a pip, says sharp things against the writers that have pissed them off over the years, so they made him wait as long as possible. The baseball HOF election stuff is BS with these writers the only ones involved. Personalities and petty crap get in the way of clear thinking…

  16. zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    According to Shea, the Giants will now open the season on Thurs., 3/31. at 5:00 on ESPN, at Dodger stadium, as the third game of an ESPN triple header. And if you guessed that ESPN’s first game of the day is a Yankee game, you know your ESPN.
    I’m assuming then that Friday, 4/1, will be the dreaded “off day,” then followed by 3 more games against the Dodgers, two against the Pads, before the Giants finally get home and get their World Series rings in a pregame ceremony before playing the Cards. La Russa and the Cards can enjoy watching the Giants get rings.

  17. swickman said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Looking at his stats and having read a lot of different articles on Blyleven, I’m sufficiently convinced that he is HOF-worthy.

    I never really saw him pitch because what little baseball I watched back then was Giants baseball. The only thing I remember vividly about him from my youth was that every other fucking pack of Topps that I bought seemed to have a fucking Bert Blyleven. Year after year with the beard. I hated that beard. All I wanted was an Atlee Hammaker, Jack Clark or Jeffrey Leonard. All I ever seemed to get was Bert Fucking Blyleven. I should check my collection and see if the dozens (it felt like thousands) of Bert Blyleven cards I own are worth anything right now, since he’s going to the Hall.

  18. zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Dennis, where did you get that Renteria info? I’m not seeing it anywhere else.

    • zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:16 pm

      Ah, Shea has updated his post at the Splash. Renteria for 1 year at 3 million to the Reds. Good for him. I’m glad the Giants passed on that, though. And now they are free to move in another direction for a back-up infielder. And we can remember Edgar’s great playoff run as the end of his Giants career. Seems like a win/win, IMO.

    • swickman said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:17 pm

      MLB Trade Rumors is where I saw it.

  19. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    Renteria:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5995660

    I wish Edgar well, except in games against the Jints.

    • zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:20 pm

      Yeah, the hurt feelings over the contract talk will fade quickly. Renteria will get cheered when he comes back to AT&T for a series. And he gets 3 million plus incentives from the Reds. That’s a nice deal for him. I don’t blame the Giants for not wanting to go that high, given Edgar’s injury woes the last couple of years.

  20. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    I vividly remember Bert in the 1979 WS. Curveball like no other.

  21. Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    Anyone have Rent going to the Reds in the contest?

    • TedSpe said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:32 pm

      Nope. Giants, Marlins or Margaritaville were the picks

  22. alleykat said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Andrew Luck passes on the draft, going back to Stanford.

    • Max808 said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:37 pm

      That may not make sense financially, but I heartily applaud him.

      Rent shouldn’t be a total surprise with Walt Jocketty there.
      Vlad won’t be going to Texas either, so it looks like everyone is wrong on that one.
      Blade Macdog and Ghead each with 1 right so far. It comes down to Cabrerra. Might end up in SF?

      • swickman said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:39 pm

        I think Blade got Beltre correct, right?

      • swickman said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:40 pm

        Nevermind that comment. As I was hitting “Post”, I saw that you had mentioned Blade.

      • blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:59 pm

        Agree with Flav, Max808, and Alleykat – I applaud Luck staying in school. He recognizes what very few athletes know, a college education is priceless (especially a Stanford education). Equally important, the experience of going to college, frats, etc., is once in a lifetime.

      • blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:01 pm

        If I am still in the contest, it is pure luck . . . But what’s the saying about luck? “Where preparation meets opportunity.” Umm . . . maybe that defines the “Luck” at Stanford. Ha.

  23. Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Good for Luck. I’ll see him at the Dutch Goose shortly . . .

  24. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Luck coming back shows what Stanford football is all about. Great day to be a Cardinal fan….

  25. snarkk said, on January 6, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    Good move by Luck. He can insure himself for big $ against injury.
    As for Rent, the Reds can have him for $3M, and apparently that includes incentives, so it’s not all guaranteed. I guess the price of him not enjoying his family is about $2M in incentive laden cash?…

  26. blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    Hey, I haven’t been around here lately, but I perused quickly some of the posts for other threads and I noticed that Mike (Twin) isn’t around? Is he ok?

    • zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:24 pm

      Yesterday he talked about surgery.

  27. zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:09 pm

    Edgar’s big HR, in espanol:

    • snarkk said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:19 pm

      Gotta luv Nolan Ryan’s reaction shot on Rent’s HR. Looks like he’s just been told he needs another prostate exam from the staff medico nicknamed “Big Fingers” Johnson…

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:12 pm

      Another version of Baskingville mania. Very cool. Thanks. A good memory to keep. Adios, pelota! We’ll always cherish that.

  28. zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    I’m guessing the looming NFL strike played a big part in Luck’s decision, because it doesn’t make that much sense to me otherwise. His stock will never be higher coming out of the draft. If he blows his knee out next season playing college ball, that’s a disaster.

  29. blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    I still agree with Luck’s decision . . . even after reading this excerpt from a Yahoo Columnist:

    “The real risk for Luck, though, isn’t falling from the top spot. Bradford eventually went No. 1 last year to the St. Louis Rams, despite his injuries and lack of playing time, as did both Peyton and Eli Manning after returning to school for their senior seasons in 1997 and 2003, respectively. No, the real risk in waiting for Luck is the vast amount of money he stands to lose even as the No. 1 pick in 2012 as opposed to 2011. The NFL is mulling a major change in the rookie pay scale after the ’11 season (assuming there is a season, with a looming labor dispute threatening to put the league on ice), which could ultimately cost Luck more than $40 million, and possibly as much as $60 million, even if he’s the first player off the board next year. That is one expensive architecture degree.”

    • zumarust said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:26 pm

      Sheesh, I wasn’t even thinking of that aspect. Yikes.

  30. Kevin said, on January 6, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    So what QB do the niners go after now?

    • alleykat said, on January 6, 2011 at 2:41 pm

      I could see them going after Colin Kaespernick of UNR in probably the 4th -5th round.His stock is rising,has the size 6’6 230lbs and is mobile in the pocket good arm strength. Like him better then Mallett the statue,who CHOKED in the spotlight against OSU,couldn’t avoid the rush cause he struggles with mobility in the pocket,his game to win with 1:20 left ball on their 20 and he throws a pick? A top notch college QB doesn’t do that in crunch time.

      • Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 3:16 pm

        The ony thing I’ll give Mallett is his WRs dropped about 6 balls that should have been caught. Including the one right before the pick.

      • Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 3:18 pm

        So, as usual, it ain’t as cut-and-dried as you make it.

  31. Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    Gabbert. He might make it to 7.

  32. Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    I Still think they should get Prince with their 1st pick. Or Peterson, if he somehow falls to them.

  33. stixwiz said, on January 6, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    Thanx for the memories, Edgar. Thanx for sharing the clip, Zum. Damn! Couldn’t keep my eyes dry. This was the year. Full Bore Magic. Cast of characters was perfect. Franchez and Burrell and their reactions were surely the long and the short of it. Edgar may enjoy the Cincinnati summers, probably reminding him of the heat and humiliated relatives back home in Columbia. But it was totally cool that he was a Giant among Giants when it counted.

  34. twinfan said, on January 6, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    I’m waiting for the word on surgery-as far as Blyleven, the curve puts him in for my money. And while W-L and ERA are rightfully not as significant as peripherals for a year or two, over the course of a career they certainly are. Bert deserved it…

  35. Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    Hope all goes well yet again, Mike. We’re all pulling for you . . . . .

    Shit, I’d be drinking like a madman in your shoes.

    Well, more than I usually do, anyway . . .

  36. alleykat said, on January 6, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    Yeah Mike hang tough,Your like the timex watch…”You may take a lickin but you keep on tickin.”

    Definitely down on the shut down corner needs Unca..Have to land Prince or if Peterson falls pounce on him, anything to get Clements off the corner..If both are off the board,they might go DE maybe Fairly probably gone though,are maybe Dareus ?

  37. Macdog said, on January 6, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    Aside from the nasty curve, unfortunately I can’t help think of Berman’s stupid Bert “Be Home” Blyleven nickname. But he deserves the HOF nod.

    Also congrats to Edgar. Zum’s 12:16 summed it up. And that video was cool. Would have rather heard that call live than Buck’s uninspired delivery.

    Luck? He must be pretty smart if he doesn’t want to play for the Panthers.

  38. blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    Thanks Zum . . . Hoping for good news Mike. Sending positive thoughts your way 🙂

  39. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    one of the few cool things about wordpress is that they show me what serach engine terms were used by people each day to find the blog. It’s usually the basics, “oneflapdown” or “oneflapdown77”. Sometimes you get “Pat Burrell” or “Sadoval’s weight” or whatever. Today there was someone who found the blog by typing in “Carlos Pena’s cock”……that’s classic. I don’t think he/she found what they were looking for…….

    • TedSpe said, on January 6, 2011 at 8:32 pm

      Carlos Pena’s cock. Funny. And yet, borderline…creepy that that got this weirdo here.

  40. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    some of you may have seen this, I hadn’t. The Public House (connected to ATT) reaction to the Renteria HR. I love the guy filming it and his comment on Rowand (with full girlfriend approval). This is as close as we get to that HR being hit at a home game…….

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:22 pm

      utterly wild! thanks, Magnus

      my man Aaron came through when asked, though, in the postseason

      • Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:28 pm

        is there anything better than watching a group of drunken baseball fans frozen in time for a second and then all exploding in unison? I don’t think so……..

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:31 pm

        What the hell kind of parent am I? I just exulted in sharing this with my 13 yo daughter. Sure is exuberantly raucous.

  41. twinfan said, on January 6, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    Surgery it is. I should have the date tomorrow. I’ve heard the ” they found nothing joke” a few times already today , BTW.

    • TedSpe said, on January 6, 2011 at 6:07 pm

      Then I shall refrain. Good luck Michael

  42. Unca Chuck said, on January 6, 2011 at 6:28 pm

    When they find nothing, Mike, we’ll all be happy . . .

  43. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:00 pm

    been through this before, I feel like a pro 🙂
    Despite the huge pain in the ass this is going to be to go get done I have great faith that you will end up on the right end of this…….

  44. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:01 pm

    based on the Brett Farve/Jenn Hottie thing, I’ve decided that it’s entirely possible Carlos Pena himself is the guy who searched for that…….

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:26 pm

      possible; my Statcounter gives me the same info for my blog, and I’ll tell ya, my post “the kama sutra of sleep,” more innocent than searchers expect, gets lots of folks to my blog, as well as my post on famous epitaphs. What is more curious is the origins of some of the ISPs: the gov’t entities or educational institutions whose employees seemingly could find better things to do

  45. alleykat said, on January 6, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    Mike Singletary to interview with Minnesota Vikings for their LB position:

    At Least Sing will be back in his element: Teaching meatheads the fundamentals of being a good meathead.

    • blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:13 pm

      LQTM

  46. Flavor said, on January 6, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    well, I supported the Sing hiring when it happened so I can’t talk too much shit. But what I learned from all this is that you can’t coach a team through sheer will and determination. Maybe as a LB coach you can do that. I hope he succeeds at his next stop……

  47. snarkk said, on January 6, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    I was not down with the Sing hire from the start. He was a Ditka Bear and had nothin’ but bluster. And, my view is not to trust any dude who wears a 1/10 life size cross on his chest while he chews some guy’s ass for missing a block….

    • blade3colorado said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:14 pm

      You guys are coming up with outstanding zingers this evening 🙂

      Again, LQTM:-)

  48. ewisco said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    you go twin. remember: to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    Rent: vaya con dios. it was great to see your re-birth in the field as much as anything. but it’s probably time for us to cut the cord.

    sing: get a clue. any clue. they’re free.

    A Luck: atta babe.

    jimmy H: Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

    Flappers: bask, baby, bask.

  49. twinfan said, on January 6, 2011 at 9:48 pm

    Jay Glazer at Fox says “strong signals” the Niners sign Harbaugh tonight, 6 per.

  50. xootsuit said, on January 6, 2011 at 10:37 pm

    TF, I wondered why you hadn’t weighed in on Shea’s most recent invitation for haters to engage in Edgar Renteria bashing. The splash definitely can wait, however. Good luck.

  51. Unca Chuck said, on January 7, 2011 at 8:31 am

    I’m with Flav on the Sing hire. I thought Nolan was a disconnected captain of a sinking ship. They needed some attitude and spark that a guy like Singletary would provide.

    it worked, up to a point. The players at first rallied around their fiery leader. All was fine until he turned on them and threw them under the bus at every opportunity. It was ALWAYS about execution, not about bland plays, or unimaginitive (or non-existent) schemes. By the end of last year, it was becoming apparent that he had no idea how to scheme for different teams, and once in a while, they matched up well vs certain teams, and not for others.

    All the talk of “we aren’t here to fool anyone” was sickening in it’s total disregard for strategizing against different types of teams. KC was a prime example. It took 2.5 quarters to stop a screen play. By then, KC had 120 yards on 5 screen passes, and the score was 27-3.

    By week 5, Jed should have canned Singletary. It verty well could have saved the season. He followed Sing’s path down the rabbit hole by saying at the end of the season, “I should have fired him earleir.” Even though 8,000,000 were screaming that very thing all season.


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