A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Phailing Philadelphia Phillies

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on October 8, 2011

This has been a good week phor me. I revel in watching east coast teams phail. New York and Philadelphia both got knocked out. I’ve got nothing against the players who phail. It’s their phans who I don’t like. I don’t like the east coast media, either. When east coast teams phail, they blame it on bad luck. The other team “caught lightening in a bottle.” Phailure doesn’t happen to their team. At least in the pre-season. Or the regular season. Phailure only happens to  other teams. At least until it happens to them…..

So watching the Eagles phail last week to my phavorite phootball team, during the same week I was celebrating the one year anniversary of my phavorite baseball team phorcing a phail right down the Phillies throats made phor a really good week phor me. And watching Ryan Howand lie on the phield, injured, as yet another season went up in smoke phor a phan base that I don’t like or respect, well, that just capped a really good seven days phor me. I’ve got nothing against Howard so don’t think I’m celebrating his injury. At least he got his bat off his shoulder this time. It’s the epic collective phail of a phan base that I am celebrating. Phuck you, Philly phans. Don’t phorget the phacts. This season, phailure phinally phound you. Phrankly speaking, your *dream teams* phooled you. Enjoy your off season of phreaking out and phantasizing about phinishing 2012 with a championship. You’re phucking delusional……..

82 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 8:20 am

    I’m gonna miss the old man, mostly for his spectacularly weird press conferences……

  2. stixwiz said, on October 8, 2011 at 8:24 am

    Phantastic phocus on the phlailing.

  3. willieD said, on October 8, 2011 at 8:26 am

    Yeah, pretty much a bask day around these parts. I don’t think I’ve liked anything from Philly since Andrew Toney. That’s amazing how much they are paying Howard (and for how long), who could be supplanted anytime by Mayberry Jr. He killed us when he was here, good looking kid. That signing could go down with Soriano by the Cubs, which has made the guy untradeable.
    I remember posting something couple weeks ago about an article I read from Knapp (or Shea) about how little success the 100 win teams have had lately in playoffs. Interesting too how the last few elim games have all been low scoring pitching duels, despite all the teams involved having super hitting clubs.

  4. Macdog said, on October 8, 2011 at 8:28 am

    Wow Phlav, er, Flav, phantastic intro, maybe the best of the year. All I can say is, stick a phork in ’em.

  5. NoTalent said, on October 8, 2011 at 8:41 am

    Spot on BF.

    I’ve lived in the heart of Philly since ’08, so a couple more notes on their 2011 obit. The ‘delusional’ part is exactly right, particularly when it comes to the Eagles, who have never won a championship. There are many lovable loser fan bases, I’ve never encountered one that is so damn arrogant.

    But back to the Phils, the chain of events over the last few years have been closely tied to our very Giants. After winning in 2008, the Phils were naturally determined to repeat. I believe we may have played them tough in an early ’09 meeting and Lincecum was commencing his ultimately successful defense of the Cy Young. The talk shows here were accurately burning up on how Philly’s pitching staff could be outed in short series come playoff time. Believe it or not, our Giants (pre-World Series) were a hot topic here. This led to the parting of prospects and the trade for Cliff Lee. The city lost the ’09 WS to the Yanks and in the process fell hopelessly in love with Lee. When Ruben Amaro let Lee go and then traded more prospects for Halladay, the city was bewildered but optimistic. Amaro tried to correct his Lee gaffe and then traded for Oswalt mid-season, letting go of more prospects. Then the Phils ran into our team of destiny in that legendary 2010 NLCS, as we pinned losses on Halladay, Oswalt, Hamels and Madsen — the best they had to offer.

    Furious and wanting to win now, Amaro re-signed Lee and let Werth go. This was a direct response to our dominant pitching staff and our likely re-appearance in the playoffs, certainly not the Yanks or Red Sox — both of whom had awful starters. The 2011 party was interrupted with our taking two of three in Philly coupled with the Beltran trade. The fans, manager, GM and team panicked and traded four top prospects for Hunter Pence. Prior to that series, it seemed likely that the right-handed bat the team wanted was likely going to be a Willingham-type. The rest of 2011 culminated with yesterday’s impotent 1-0 loss.

    Now the Phils have many questions. They may lose some combo of Rollins, Oswalt, Madsen, Lidge, Ibanez. Hamels is a year away from free agency and Howard may have a torn Achilles. Utley, Victorino, Halladay and Lee are on the wrong side of 30 and the farm system is depleted.

    The irony is I completely admire the organization and the way they built through the farm and went after the right veterans. Ruben Amaro is what every fan wants in an aggressive GM. He got them to the playoffs. But to watch these stupid fans learn a lesson about hope, arrogance and fanmanship was priceless.

  6. Nipper said, on October 8, 2011 at 9:05 am


  7. ewisco said, on October 8, 2011 at 9:13 am

    Al Davis – RIP

    but maybe now the raiders will have a chance at respectability.

  8. Nipper said, on October 8, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Davis did it his way to the end. I think he left the Raiders in good shape.

  9. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 9:49 am

    Al Davis, perhaps as much a sports icon as Jobs was in the electronics world. So many years have passed since Al was truly influential, it’s easy to forget the mark he’s made on the game. I’ll do a Room B feature later..
    As to the Phils, Lee was overkill. They would have been far better off either retaining Werth or going after another RH bat. They’ve been exposed in the postseason again- they’re a team that can be pitched to- they’ll handle mistakes but in the postseason you just don’t see as much of that as when you’re going up against the Cubbies…

  10. Bozo said, on October 8, 2011 at 9:50 am

    I pheel ya Phlav.

  11. James said, on October 8, 2011 at 9:53 am

    The Phillies were the best team in the NL. The trade for Pence was a rational move for the GM, but it points to the classic problem of marginal value and what’s good enough. Pence makes them a stronger team, but with a little better luck they could have easily won it all w/o him.

    The most interesting thing about their failure is that it no one will say “good hitting beats good pitching every time.”

    • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:18 am

      Philly is not as good a hitting team as myth would have it, certainly not the juggernaut portrayed by the media. They do nothing to generate runs and as has been shown, their big guns can be handled. They’ve now hit .215 and .226 in the last two postseasons with just 7 home runs in 14 games.

      • James said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:37 am

        Their offense is as good as it was over 162 games. They were 7th in OPS this year, 4th last year. Not a juggernaut, but in combination with the pitching good enough to win. I’m not sure what gross characterizations like “they can be pitched to” mean. I doubt that the claim would hold up if you looked at the performance of the better NL pitchers against the Phillies over the course of the season.

      • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:54 am

        Their performance in the postseason the last two years when facing good pitching teams validates my point. And they’ve hit .195, .226, and .222 against us in the regular season over the last three years. At least OUR good pitching finds they can be pitched to, with three years plus a postseason as proof.

  12. Sierra Nevada said, on October 8, 2011 at 9:56 am

    RIP Al Davis.

    On Howard, you can say you “don’t think I’m celebrating his injury,” but you are bullshitting yourself. You are celebrating the injury of a guy while the wound is still fresh, and trying to pass it off as justified by your hate for their fan base. Howard’s career could be in danger, really severe Achilles injuries can do that.

    Fans of other teams who did that while Posey was still writhing and yelling in pain on the training table revealed themselves to be asses (McClennan over at Az Snakepit, for example), and you are doing the same thing here.

    You may not like or respect the Phillie fan base, but don’t shit all over the Giants fan base by gloating over an injured player.

    Douche move, Flavor.

    • James said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:03 am

      I didn’t read it as a celebration. What’s more debatable is writing him off as another Zito-like bust. He’s clearly not the player he was in his 20s, but I’d expect hm to have pretty good seasons the next couple of years.
      Howard has also been a fine post season player over his career.

    • Big flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:08 am

      I’m sorry you read it that way. I even went out of my way to say I wasn’t celebrating. But whatever, take it however you want.

      • Nipper said, on October 8, 2011 at 11:42 am

        BF on the “hot” spot! Can he take the heat?

    • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:24 am

      This part was pretty rough, Craig, despite what you followed it up with:
      “And watching Ryan Howand lie on the phield, injured, as yet another season went up in smoke phor a phan base that I don’t like or respect, well, that just capped a really good seven days phor me.”
      It probably came out wrong.

      • Nipper said, on October 8, 2011 at 11:41 am

        BF and Twin like oil and water!

  13. blade3colorado said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Al Davis rest in peace . . . Always liked the 49ers, but I loved how he defined the word, “Rebel.” However, more important (and the casual fan does not know this), is the compassion he had for people and the good charity/volunteer works he did anonymously, never wanting credit or recognition for them. He will be missed.

  14. zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:20 am

    Cliff Lee’s stats in his two most recent playoff series:
    0-2, 6.94 ERA
    0-1, 7.50 ERA

  15. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Lee lost the WS for Texas and giving up the 4 run lead was probably the killer for Philly. He’s building himself quite a choke credential.

  16. Kevin said, on October 8, 2011 at 10:49 am

    For me any team that thinks they are the best at the beginning year and it should be their God given right to go to the WS, it makes it all the sweeter to watch them lose. And yeah it is as much the medias phault as it is the Teams.

  17. James said, on October 8, 2011 at 11:01 am

    Cliff Lee’s postseason stats:


    It may be that his confidence has declined with age. Funny how often that seems to happen to baseball players (see also R. Howard) while most of the rest of the population usually gains it with age.

  18. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 11:19 am

    Well, Lee has not a had a standard career- he had 4 consecutive years with ERAs of 5.43, 3.79, 4.40, and 6.29 while winning 51 games. Then he had his carreer CY year in 2008 at 22-3 2.54. Other than that CY year and this one, he’s mostly been a “good” pitcher, the three on our staff…

  19. Big flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 11:56 am

    Whatev, I’m not sweatin’ the Howard line. I know what I meant when I wrote it. It had nothing to do with celebrating an injury.

  20. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    Compare Lee’s first full 3 years to Basket Case’s. Same age- 25, 26, 27. Composite, Dirty was better.

    Lee’s first full 3 years:
    14-8 5.43 1.503 WHIP
    18-5 3.79 1.218 WHIP
    14-11 4.40 1.405 WHIP

    Head Case first full 3 years:
    9-12 .5.01 1.449 WHIP
    8-12 4.24 1.365 WHIP
    13-9 3.07 1.231 WHIP

    • James said, on October 8, 2011 at 2:38 pm

      Which is another good reason to hold on to JS.

      Lee’s career path doesn’t strike me as that unusual, at least according to the late blooming lefty theory. He had an early year when he struggled with control, then another when it looks like he was out with an injury. He has been very good since age 29, when he really seemed to gain excellent command.

      • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 2:45 pm

        Well, just the inflated win totals were unusual- wonder how Dirty would be viewed if he’d won 46 games in his first three years.

  21. EdGdsnInExile said, on October 8, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    No Talent, that was a solid post. Thanks. On the audio of Howard’s last out I thought I heard fans booing. Am I right? As Howard crumples to the ground? I’ve always found that fanbase out of line, but that would truly be another level.

    I’m always late choosing playoff winners, but I would make the general point that a lot of superficial media analysis looks at Yanks, BoSox, Phils’ hitting over 162 games and translates that to the post-season. The fact is Phils were facing Cards pitching, not that of the Cubs, Astros, et. al. over whom they feasted in the regular season. I looked at all three clubs as having holes, which good pitching will exploit.

    • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 12:21 pm

      OK- still a chance for the Blu-Ray Drive- pick the pennant winners and the World Series winner. Tie Breaker is HRs by both teams in WS.
      E-Mail picks to

  22. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    I don’t think they realized he has hurt that badly. And he wasn’t dressed as Santa so I really don’t think that the booing was all that much.

  23. unca_chuck said, on October 8, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    Well, I’m pretty sure they were booing him as he was writhing in pain. I said it when it happened.

    Rest in troubled peace, Al. I think right about now he’s suing Beelzebub for a better spot in hell. However you feel about Al and the Raiders, the guy was pretty damn smart, and helped make the league what it is today. Big beyond belief and greedy as all hell. He kept the AFL afloat by the force of his will, and stared down Pete Rozelle at every opportunity. For the betterment of the league as a whole. In the early days anyway.

    The dude was seemingly in and out of touch with reality these past 12 years, but he certainly had his own crazy as shit ideas on how to run that organization. Good, bad, or indifferent, a one-of-a-kind guy who left his indelible mark on the face of football.

    • Nipper said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:01 pm

      Beelzebub? Is that your mother-in-law?

  24. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    I do not believe that the fans had any idea how badly he was hurt and will never believe it even of Philly fans. Any booing started when the grounder was struck, there was very little when it was obvious he was injured.

    • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 1:38 pm

      I would believe it first of Niner fans and you-know-who..

  25. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    E-Mail your picks for pennant winners and WS. The prize is a very cool Blu-Ray drive that can be used on any PC with USB. You have just until the first score in the Detroit game- also give me your tie breaker- total HRs by both teams in WS.

  26. PawlieKokonuts said, on October 8, 2011 at 1:17 pm


  27. willieD said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    The early days of the AFL were quite interesting, and unlike Rozelle’s wishes, refused to go away, in no small part due to the efforts of Al Davis. Like Dallas, the early Raiders were flat awful, and then as the league began to find talented players unwanted/unscouted by NFL (from Don Maynard to the small black school guys like Willie Brown) they became much more competitive, as Broadway Joe proved to everyone.
    Raiders always had cool players, from Lamonica to Stabler, Hewritt Dixon, Ted Hendricks, the youthful Madden, the ancient Blanda, Bill King at the mike. Never boring, no matter whether you liked them or not. After the back and forth to LA, I was done with them.
    But, the SB vs. Skins was a classic. I was at my cousin’s apt he shared with my uncle and a buddy. Before the game my uncle is talking shit about skins at $20 straight up, and I said, “I’ll have some of that.” The others went in with me, and soon after Theisman spotted the wide open Squirek in the flat, my uncle stomped out of there cursing all of us and left 3 20s on the table. We f-ed with him for days after…”Handoff to Marcus, cuts back..uh oh”

    • zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:31 pm

      One of the coolest defensive plays in Super Bowl history….

      • willieD said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:42 pm

        Thx Zum, i thought so…King was truly awesome…”Holy toledo!”

      • zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:47 pm

        Joe Gibbs was a great coach, but that wasn’t one of his better play calls. A screen pass, deep in his own territory, to close out the half. Wow.

      • zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:48 pm

        Actually maybe it wasn’t a screen pass. But the Raider rush was in so strong, it kind of looks like a screen.

  28. zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    And this….

  29. snarkk said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    Complicated dude, Darth Al. Smart, opinionated, totally full of himself, ready to sue at the drop of a hat, loyal to players down on their luck and people he liked, yet totally disloyal to his fan base in moving to LA. A pacesetter in minority hiring in pro sports, yet an out and out pr##k in many ways. An early innovator, then an aging iconoclast who wouldn’t let go and thereby dragged down his organization. If you crossed him (Wayne Valley, Rozelle for example), look out. On the field he was Just Win Baby — yet he was open to let petty vindictiveness override that (the ludicrous benching of Marcus Allen). Hang onto your wallet if you dared do a deal with him — just ask the Irwindale suckers. I loved the Raiders in the late 60s and 70s and their outlaw image mixed with real on-field excitement and success, along with the great broadcasting of Bill King that went with it so well. Al masterminded it all. But, when he moved the team to LA out of his own hubris and ego and greed, he devastated a loyal fan base that had sold out the stadium for over a decade and made him rich. Somebody else can forgive him for that; many won’t, including me. Much of that Oakland and Bay Area fan base never fully returned to the Raiders after he stabbed it in the back, substituted now by a fan base with a substantial number sporting a weird, look-at-me mentality that is undeniably more fair weather than anything else, witness the lack of butts in the seats during the slide of the last decade. Al will be missed for his unique personality and inarguable early innovations and contributions to the AFL and then NFL. But, the irony is, the Raiders will surely do better now without him…

    • Nipper said, on October 8, 2011 at 4:37 pm

      Snarkk ready to buy tickets again?

  30. zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    Oops- sorry about that. Didn’t mean to post that twice. I meant to post this as the other play:

    • willieD said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:51 pm

      Zum, you’re killing me. I could watch that shit all day.
      Good buddy of mine, local ups driver where I work, is a die hard skins guy…one of the worst days of his life. He also filled me in on something interesting….Dwight Clark was in town a few years ago, and chanced to meet a rather unassuming but attractive (and much younger) gal at a real estate office where he and some associates had some business. She has subsequently become Mrs. DC, after he split up the family and divorced the previous Mrs. DC back in Carolina. All of which explains his higher visibility these days on local networks etc. And of course, the new Mrs. DC no longer has to go to the office.

  31. zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Stanford is on the Versus network today at 4:30. For those with Direct TV that’s channel 603.

  32. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    Only two contestants so far, that won’t do it.

  33. Del Mar Dennis said, on October 8, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    How bout dem Stanford special teams? They giveth and then they really taketh away.
    Looks like a beautiful day down on the Farm. How come they don’t play those old Berkeley Farms commercials? “Farms in Berkeley? Moooooo”

  34. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    How can Sierra control the font for others?

    • Sierra Nevada said, on October 8, 2011 at 5:08 pm

      I apparently didn’t close one of my bold tags, and my subsequent attempt to close failed. I have douched up the blog. Sorry about that. The best solution is probably for Flavor to delete my posts on this thread. No big loss.

      • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 5:23 pm

        I still don’t get how you can control the font for the whole blog.

      • Del Mar Dennis said, on October 8, 2011 at 5:32 pm

        I remember something similar about a year ago, and I changed everything into italics.
        I still don’t know WTF I did.

      • twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 5:39 pm

        You have edting privelges, I guess Sierrra does too.

  35. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    However it may have come out, Craig would not have meant to “celebrate” Howard’s injury.

  36. dirtnrocksnreno said, on October 8, 2011 at 5:39 pm

    I was never a Raider fan because the 49ers are superior in every way but I always have respected Davis. Dude came on board as a coach and around ten years later is principle owner. His back office maneuvering makes Baer look like a total novice. Plus I always liked Madden. Mostly because we used to steal beers from his gazebo bar but also because he’s an underrated coach and football mind. He sometimes struck out but Davis was good at identifying and hiring good coaches. After all the lawsuits, BS and persona I think he was good for the league.

  37. Del Mar Dennis said, on October 8, 2011 at 6:01 pm

    Verlander and the Tigers in an early hole here down 2-0. If they go down 0-1 with their ace and soon to be Cy Young award winner on the hill. I know I’d be hitting the “panic button.”

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on October 8, 2011 at 6:17 pm

      Don’t you think Verlander is really getting squeezed on strikes?

  38. PawlieKokonuts said, on October 8, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    I feel compelled to say [will it come out boldly?] that while Magnus did not explicitly “celebrate” Howard’s injury, taken with the whole string of Phillies comments, saying that it “capped” a week of events comes off sourly, like piling on. At least to this reader. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that offense was not intended, but I would be inauthentic if I did not say I agreed with Sierra Nevada on this. Seems that Sierra is walking on eggshells to give the moderator of this blog every benefit of the doubt. As am I.

    But I did not want to be guilty of being silent when I felt it right to speak up. In this case, I felt it was right to concur with Sierra. Not to blow the whole thing out of proportion, either.

    Won’t comment further on this topic.

  39. PawlieKokonuts said, on October 8, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    Seems to me Francona is doing a pretty good job. Per usual, not so for Joe Buck. De-bold me!

  40. PawlieKokonuts said, on October 8, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    This “bold” is growing on me. AT LEAST IT IS NOT ALL CAPS.

  41. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    Zumie, Denny, and Chuck: there were not enough contestants for the prize.

  42. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 6:47 pm

    I ‘ll try for a WS contest once the combatants are settled.

  43. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    I’ve got no idea how SN influenced the font. He doesn’t have editing power. I kinda like it…….
    And SN, I am fine with you calling me out on it. Again, I know what I meant and it didn’t come out right. I was trying to focus on the fan base and how bummed they were to sit there watching Howard on the field AND having just lost it all and I even referenced the fan base in the same sentence. After I read it I wrote the next sentence clarifying I wasn’t celebrating his injury. But it clearly touched a nerved with you and some other people who sent me emails. I am sorry for that……

  44. Sierra Nevada said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    I am such a dumbass. I don’t have editing priveleges here, twin, or I would go back and delete the post that fucked things up.

    This is a common bug on comment systems. If somebody uses a bold, italic, or some other text tag and then doesn’t properly close them, the typestyle gets propagated to all the following posts.

    Again, sorry everybody.

  45. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    Like I said, I kinda like it. But I will try to fix it, I have never messed with font here so I will be hunting and pecking. Ironically, I am drinking a Sierra Nevada while I do so. 🙂

  46. zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:16 pm

    iIt did funky things to my comment box.

  47. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    Zumie–like what?
    I went into the font section but it wants me to put in the HTML code for the previous font and I have no idea what that is. Twin, you got any ideas on how to fix this?

    • zumie said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:34 pm

      Some stuff was super-imposed over other stuff. I couldn’t really see what I was typing.

  48. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    I might have to delete your posts but let me try something first…….

  49. twinfan1 said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    Other than the time stamp being fucked up, it seems OK now.

  50. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    ok, I think I fixed it…….

  51. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    that’s cool, I was gonna throw up a new thread anyway. Gimmie a minute……..

  52. Del Mar Dennis said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:32 pm

    Just another ho-hum 48-7 win for the Cardinal. This just in: That Andrew Luck kid ain’t too shabby…
    My god is he phenomenal. Pin-point accuracy, arm strength, throwing on the run, across his body, pocket awareness, decision making, command of the huddle, you name it.

    I think if his pursuit of being the next great architect like Art Vandelay doesn’t pan out, he might have a career in the NFL.

  53. I_B_ed_c said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    that visit to the mound had to be “don’t throw Cabrera anything good

  54. Del Mar Dennis said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:35 pm

    Napoli HAS to catch that ball. Too bad use can’t use a 2nd DH.

    • I_B_ed_c said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:39 pm

      napoli is an offensive catcher and his defensive weak spot is blocking balls.

      ” <– goes at the end of the next post

  55. I_B_ed_c said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    at 3:30 am I made it through one rain delay; wonder if I’ll make it to church tomorrow?

  56. Flavor said, on October 8, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    NEW THREAD**************
    I got that from Chuck, I like it……

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: