A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Cost of a Good Closer and Game Day in UnHappy Valley

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on November 12, 2011

I don’t want to get into another debate about how valuable a good closer is. I know what the argument is against the value of a good closer. I take the other side, I don’t think enough weight is given to the psychological make up of the closer and the different circumstance the 9th inning presents compared to other innings.

What are the 3 most important things you need to be an elite closer? 1) a great K/inning ratio. 2) a great K/bb ratio. 3) a short memory. Sergio Romo had one of the greatest seasons you could ever have in terms of predicting success as a future stud closer— 70K’s, 5bb’s. That’s absurd. That’s Dennis Eckersley CY territory. But Romo would be a mess as a closer, by his own admission. If he blew a save he’d be up all night lamenting it. That won’t work…….

Actually, a lot of guys have proven they can do the job. For a short period of time. Pitchers thrown into the roll (like Motte, for instance) can go on a nice run if they start off successful. It’s the bumps in the road that will determine if they can be elite or not. LaRussa didn’t turn to Motte till August as the closer and he had an awful nice run, all the way through the playoffs. It’s possible that he’s found himself the real-deal. But I am not sold, let’s see him do it for a full season. LaRussa’s no dummy, there’s a reason he turned to 3-4 other guys before he settled on Motte out of necessity……

That brings me to the Phillies and the 4 (potentially 5) year deal they just gave Papelbon. S-T-U-P-I-D signing. ‘Pap has had a very nice career as a closer. He was actually originally projected to be a starter but was thrown into the roll as a rookie and he really hasn’t looked back. But there have been warning signs before his bounce back season in 2011. 2010 was not a good year for him. And last year didn’t end so hot, the last time we saw ‘Pap he was blowing a save to the Orioles in spectacular fashion on the now famous September 28th, the day baseball went insane.

For that he gets a potential 5 year deal? Are the Phillies crazy? They just got burned finishing off paying Lidge for 3 years of sub par work. At least Papelbon has proved he can stay healthy. But 5 years is an eternity for a closer unless your name is Mariano Rivera (and Joe Nathan, before his injury in 2010 and uninspiring comeback 2011).

I wouldn’t ever give a closer, I don’t care who he is, a deal longer than 2 years. As Papelbon enters his 30’s I predict that there is virtually no way he makes it through that deal without an injury and/or losing his job due to a streak of intolerable gas can appearances…….

__________________________________________________

How does the network broadcast today’s Penn St/Nebraska game? Do they show all the protests? What protests get shown? The ones defending the pedophile-supporting Paterno? Or the ones denouncing the molestation? How will the actual game play out? Nebraska has been swept up into a tornado. And the Penn State kids couldn’t have gotten much sleep last night. I wish that the NCAA had done the right thing and canceled the rest of the Penn State season. Their failure to respond or even make a statement regarding this unfortunate, sad, firestorm shows a black hole of leadership on their part. I guess they’re too busy busting players getting free tattoos. Horrible response (or lack of one) by the NCAA on all of this……

103 Responses

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  1. Nipper said, on November 12, 2011 at 8:27 am

    The firestorm will continue! Penn is finished. That staff will have to disband. They must know it.

  2. James said, on November 12, 2011 at 8:30 am

    I wonder how much easier Romo is on himself when he blows a save in the 8th. 1 run lead, runners on second and third, 1-2 count on a right handed hacker, and the slider doesn’t quite make it off the plate . . . .

    The Papelbon signing is an irrational waste of $$$.

    • willieD said, on November 12, 2011 at 8:38 am

      Hey Oliver, side note: Sonny rollins “road shows vol. 2” is out now. I listened to vol. 1, taken from last 20 years or so of his live performances at various venues around the world, very powerful stuff, lot of great music packed into 5-6 songs..

      • James said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:06 am

        Hey, thanks, Willie, I needed a reminder right about now to see what’s new in the music world. The job, second kid getting ready for college, too much non-leisure activity taking up the days. I was on The Bridge the day the Occupy movement broke nationally, having just taken a stroll across it before the ruckus started. I admit that I prefer the musical association.

  3. willieD said, on November 12, 2011 at 8:32 am

    Right or wrong, I doubt NCAA does anything more until after season ends. This has gotten so big, they have to get it right. That will take a long time to sort out before they go public with any finality.
    Great weekend otherwise for college sports—Furd and the Ducks for all the marbles, local b-ball getting rolling. I hate it tho when schools schedule the cupcake games, like Dawkins playing Central Arkansas last night, Duke is playing cal’s fav team, Presbyterian, today, even dumber b-ball match up than football one.
    Pap deal sure is a curious one…wonder if he was just not coming back to Boston under any circumstances or what. I think the Phillies would have been far wiser to spend that money in another direction—they are not a young and healthy team on the field. See what happens with rollins, who won’t come cheap either.

    • James said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:12 am

      If only Jimmy could have a prime that lasted as long as Sonny’s . . . .

  4. snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 8:47 am

    The NCAA is a corrupt organization that plays favorites to satisfy the demands of big time Sports TV. The Penn State situation is the Fukushima of college scandals. It is too hot for the NCAA to handle at the moment, so it is in forced hibernation. The NCAA won’t touch it until the Paterno fuel cools down and it sees which direction the wind is blowing the radiation…

  5. twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:01 am

    Well, there’s more than the NCAA. The Department of Education will investigate, and there are bound to be civil suits, and *Civil Rights* suits. Which brings up one of the more chiling and disgusting aspects- it’s not being reported by mainstream media but it seems there’s a good chance that most if not all of the victims were black. If so, I think that would have played a major part in why this wasn’t pursued aggressively. These were underprivileged kids mostly from single family homes, boys who had been in trouble- despite their young age I’d bet they were considered willing or least passively willing “partners”. More than anytrhing this would explain the fact that the abuse was allowed to continue by the white men who knew of it.. And an incident in 1988 WAS reported but Sandusky only admitted to doing a “wrong”. Police eavesdropped on a conversation with the victim’s mother and Sandusky, withoutr admitting to sex, said “I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won’t get it from you. I wish I were dead.” Charges were never filed…does anyone think that a rape of this boy would have treated in the same manner?
    boy

    • willieD said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:06 am

      Couple days ago I saw a small story about the guy who first looked into some of this shit…whose body has never been found. Was said to be no-nonsense all business prosecutor….hmnn.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:21 am

      This is not just idle speculation on my part- the race of the victims is becoming a huge question . “Many are already wondering, with good reason, if the identities and circumstances of the kids involved contributed to the allegations not being taken seriously”…

    • shaman_138 said, on November 12, 2011 at 1:23 pm

      Roy Gricar, Centre County D.A., who spear-headed the investigation which led to Sandusky’s “I wish I were dead”being heard in the victim’s mother’s house, suddenly and myseriously vanished and was declared dead. What’s even weirder is that his laptop was found with the hard drive missing….

  6. St said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:16 am

    Found his laptop in the river..hard drive erased??

    • willieD said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:25 am

      Yeah, that is really suspicious shit…maybe the current stuff will bring more attention to this too.

  7. Flavor said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:16 am

    I haven’t read anything that said all the victims were black. I’m not saying it’s not out there or that you didn’t read it, I’m just saying I haven’t seen or heard anything about that. If true, that changes things AGAIN! (for the reasons you listed).
    How did anyone find out the ethnicity of the victims if the names of them haven’t been released?

  8. Flavor said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:21 am

    Turns out the Phillies didn’t offer Madson a 4 year deal, it was 3 years and he was holding out for a 4th. What a dumb fuck. You take the 3 years offered to you and like it.
    Of course, if Pap has set the new market for closers maybe he gets his 4th year from Toronto or someone……..
    I wouldn’t give him more than 2…….

  9. St said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:33 am

    I don’t believe race was a factor in not pursuing this. White, brown black, they couldn’t risk a scandal with all that money at stake and Joe’s precious legacy.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:44 am

      Well, we can believe what we want- if turns out to be true that most if not all of the children were black or ethnic minorities ( Sandusky is said to have been “with” a young asian boy as recently as 2007) , then the matter will have taken a totally new dimension whether one believes race was a factor or not- it WILL be a factor. Denial won’t cut it it.

  10. twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:38 am

    So far the race of the victims has been carefully not disclosed. Why would that be? And the mother of one victim said that the victims were in her words ,” Blacks about 10-12 and had a tall slim muscular build.”

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Did-Race-Explain-Penn-Stat-by-earl-ofari-hutchin-111111-582.html

    There’s more if one researches it. As with the rest of it, it’s an allegation. If it bears out, this story will blow up the program for sure.

    • zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:46 am

      TF, you meant 1998, not ’88 in your post. And the police who listened to the conversation were the UNIVERSITY police, who never reported it to the regular police, in another act of negligence piled upon so many other acts of negligence in this whole awful pack of crimes.

      • twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:50 am

        Yes, I meant ’98. Also the Dept. of Welfare was in on the “investigation..”not just campus police.

      • zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:53 am

        And by “negligence” I mean people CHOOSING to be negligent, in a situation of great “institutional” negligence, as everything revolved around protecting the image of the FOOTBALL PROGRAM and JOE PATERNO, instead of saving children.
        Part of Paterno’s defense strategy will be to try to cast himself as just a small cog in the bigger machine of the institution, which is, of course, completely ridiculous. Paterno was KING JOE of PENN. ST.

      • zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 9:56 am

        So the Dept. of Welfare will become part of the case. The far reach of the negligence is astounding.

      • twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:06 am

        And the 1998 case was closed when “then Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge.” So the campus police, the welfare departgment, and the DA’s office all decided there was no reason to press charges…Gricar, ofcourse, disappeared..

  11. snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:00 am

    From what I have read, there is certainly enough alleged circumstantial evidence to suggest more than “negligent” behavior at PSU in all this. Willful, intentional seems more like it. If it was a cover-up, that doesn’t happen through “negligence”…

    • zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:04 am

      Yeah, I wasn’t sure “negligence” was the right word. I was trying to think of a word that conveyed people CHOOSING to do the behavior. A willful cover-up.

  12. zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:03 am

    So far, the ESPN broadcast of the game has been OK. And it helps that Nebraska is ahead 3-0. The rare time when I’m pulling for a Nebraska victory.

  13. twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:11 am

    That was a funny pic of Jerry’s inner city under privileged kids that Snarkk linked to. In fact, fucking hilarious. I’m sure that Snarkk agrees. Here it is:
    girls

    • Flavor said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:29 am

      if it’s possible to laugh at any of this (“the boys must be in the shower”), that was marginally amusing…
      I’m assuming the charity took down the previous pic and put this one up of just girls intentionally…..

      • twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:34 am

        The photo is funnier than my comment, which was meant to be sarcastic.

  14. twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:13 am

    The boys must be in the shower…

  15. zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:21 am

    Remember Congressman Jack Murtha getting in some trouble during the 2008 campaign talking about the amount of racism in parts of Pennsylvania?
    He passed away in 2010, I think.

  16. snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:25 am

    I put the link to the site in case people want to look and check it out. It’s a typical charity type site, I’ve seen many like it, it’s typical. Lots of good words, we do this and that. There’s pics all over it, girls and boys, whether the kids are actually kids in the program or not, I haven’t a clue. I would hope so. I give to a kids charity in Texas. It’s website is very similar, pics of smiling kids and volunteers. I know something about it, it does good work. Can I guarantee that any of its workers or volunteers don’t molest any kids? Nope…

    • twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:31 am

      Actually, I presumed you meant it to be funny, because it certainly is. Well, at least we know those girls were safe…

      • snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:42 am

        I just picked the “About us” page, No amusement intended. Could have been any other page, pics are similar. No Sandusky pics, that’s for sure….

  17. zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:26 am

    Funny McCain moment, as he tries to reference Murtha’s comment, and fails miserably:

  18. zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:29 am

    Nebraska 10-0.

    • Flavor said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:31 am

      good. I’m taping it and will watch it after the Cardinal game. I don’t care who wins so I don’t mind you posting the score. I’m interested to watch all television clips of anything non-game related….
      ok, soccer game and then tailgate bound. Hope you chumps have your Cardinal gear on. šŸ™‚

      • zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:38 am

        Have a great day, BF! Go Stanford!
        —-
        ESPN has handled the Penn St. broadcast well. They’ve mixed in lots of references to the off-the-field news.

  19. Flavor said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:34 am

    by the way, here is a follow up email from Snarkk in response to my question about PSU shutting down the program to possibly save themselves some dough in upcoming civil cases.

    “In criminal cases, the state of mind/intent of the defendant at the time of the crime is normally the key to determining guilt or innocence. However, because intent is so critical, and because the accused’s freedom is taken away upon conviction, upon sentencing, depending on the jurisdiction, post-crime “remorse” behavior of the convicted criminal CAN be considered in the length of sentencing.

    In contrast, in civil cases, the focus in on: was the plaintiff injured; if yes, was the defendant the proximate cause of that injury; if yes, what were plaintiff’s damages suffered from the injury; and if there were damages, then did the plaintiff have any fault himself in contributing to his own injury that should reduce his damages award (contributory fault)? Thus, any defendant’s post-injury remorseful actions for causing the injury to plaintiff should play virtually no “official” role in the calculus of determining liability and damages.

    So, as I said in the prior e-mail, from a legal standpoint in civil suits, actions considered as showing “remorse” for the bad behavior that caused the plaintiff’s injury would be irrelevant and inadmissible as evidence in court as to the merits of the case to decide liability. Plus, they would likely merit a judge instruction to the jury that they have NO BEARING on the size of any award given. Nonetheless, a jury might ignore the judge, and group-think in the jury room, at the instigation of one or more members from his/her outside knowledge, that post-injury “remorse” actions such as a football program closure for sometime or setting up a center for abused kids research might be a mitigating factor as to size of award. That said, I think in the case of sex abuse of kids, a jury would be highly sympathetic to the victim, and even if jury members knew of such “remorse” activity and discussed it in the jury room despite a judge instruction not to do so, they would consider it irrelevant on moral grounds, especially considering the deep pockets in the case of an institutional defendant.

    If you were PSU’s lawyer, you might want to try to sneak evidence of those “remorseful” things into the case, but the judge would deny the testimony’s admission into the record, upon objection by a plaintiff’s lawyer, if the lawyer were awake. Civil tort compensation awards are based on pain and suffering of the plaintiff, and in some cases, punitive damages up to 3X the compensatories to penalize the defendant’s past bad behavior, and prevent future bad behavior of others (make an example out of the defendant). “

  20. snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 10:55 am

    If I had to bet, I’d bet Penn State does not have a program shutdown. The NCAA will claim it has no jurisdiction to give it the death penalty, no violation of any of the technical rules re: recruiting and payoffs, etc. The Big 10 won’t kick it out or shut it down. And even with a new administration coming in, the university itself or its Trustees won’t shut it even temporarily. “Not fair to the players that came here”, sounds like the mantra/excuse. Football makes too much money for the school, for the immediate area. Shutting a 110,000 seat stadium for 3 or 5 years is just not going to happen…

    • James said, on November 12, 2011 at 11:30 am

      Too big to fail.

    • xootsuit said, on November 12, 2011 at 3:23 pm

      There’s a very basic rule of evidence that prohibits using at trial evidence of “later remedial measures.” The Dodgers’ response to the Brian Stow assault is a good example. Stow’s lawyer can hammer on how the Dodgers cut security and turned off lights and ignored other assaults during the seasons BEFORE Stow got attacked, but the lawyer won’t be able to hammer on how the Dodgers responded to the Stow attack by beefing up security and turning on lights, etc., for the remainder of the 2011 season. Why? It’s obvious. Later remedial measures suggest that something was wrong that needed to be fixed, so the defendant should’ve fixed it sooner. The law does not want to discourage people from making later remedial measures, so it allows defendants to take action without getting whipsawed at trial. Penn State’s firing of the Pres. and Paterno is analogous to the Dodgers beefing up security, etc. But if Penn State goes further, if they shut down the program, they’re suggesting that problems deep in the heart of the program were responsible for the outrages that occurred. No lawyer who has ever heard juror interviews after a trial or watched jury-pool focus groups through one-way windows before a trial would recommend that. Even if the evidence of a shutdown gets formally excluded at trial, everyone will know about it. The University itself will have admitted its own deep and deep-pocket fault. So I will be surprised if Penn State shuts down the program.

  21. Del Mar Dennis said, on November 12, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    Thank Christ Nebraska held on to win that game. Penn St. didn’t deserve to win that game in every way imaginable. What little faith I have left was restored a bit with that outcome. PSU needed to be punished today. Now, let the real punishing commence…

  22. twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    I’m interested in why there there would such animus towards the Penn State players. If it’s that they supported their coach, you have to recognize that Stanford, Nebraska, Oregon.. any team would have supported the coach under similar circumstances. The PSU players are no different, other than that their coach was the “dean” of college coaches…anyway, the loss today was of no significance on any level.

  23. dirtnrocksnreno said, on November 12, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    Reggie Bush takes some dough. The NCAA strips him of the Heisman, takes Ws away from the program and rips scholarships. The Penn St program whitewashes the raping of children on campus and NCAA will act as if they have no jurisdiction? It’s a fucked up world but hey we all know that. Rip those Ws from Paterno going back to ’98 or from wherever it is established that he knowingly participated in the cover up. Like it or not this is his legacy now.

    • snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 1:07 pm

      Used to be my college football “hated” program was simple — USC.
      Now, it’s not even close. Penn State gets all my bad vibes.
      The program and its managers, not the players…

    • twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 1:35 pm

      We don’t know what will happen yet. There will be a PSU investigation,one by the NCAA, one by the U.S. Dept. of Education, civil suits,and quite possibly charges of Civil Rights violations. I wouldn’t presume PSU is skating on this yet.

  24. snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    If you cruise the Web, you’ll find articles out there that talk about how apparently there were whispers and jokes in and around Penn State for quite some time about Sandusky and little boys. And, apparently several players in 2005 were booted from the team from making crank / harassing phone calls to an unidentified person (hinted to be Sandusky). So, if there were rumors for years and enough knowledge for kids on the team to know or suspect, why are we hearing all this just now? The more comes out about this, the more it looks like an open secret of some sort on that campus and in some circles of that community. If that’s the case, how can this entire coaching staff not be tossed? If outsiders knew enough to float rumors, and McQueary was still there since the 2002 incident, then the inside staff had to know — right? I don’t think that’s a bridge too far. Bradley, the interim HC, has been there 30+ years, and other assistants have been there forever, too…

    • Nipper said, on November 12, 2011 at 1:49 pm

      The plot thickens and Snarkk’s head is spinning……

      • snarkk said, on November 12, 2011 at 2:02 pm

        Nippy, on this one, my head is on steady and straight. Thanks for your concern, tho’…

  25. willieD said, on November 12, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    fyi, there’s amy g. at ATT…on the sidelines for Cal game. flav, you two still twitter buddies?

  26. stixwiz said, on November 12, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    This all reminds me of the Franklin case which highlighted appearances by youngsters of around twelve at Daddy WarBush’s White House back in the day. Franklin, a black man, was a business executive in Omaha with close ties to Boys Town. Seems he stocked the Executive Mansion after hours with kids of around twelve or so. Though not directly linked to the goings on, Daddy WarBush has long been rumored to like em right around earliest pubescence, in contrast to the Shrub and his buddy Tony Blair who seem to favor 8″ Gannons.

    In case anyone ever wonders why so many Congresscritters and major military brass seem to consistently take stands against the better interests of the nation at large, consider the fact that many of them have received invitations to special parties where topshelf booze flowed copiously and where white powder was always available and where somehow boys and girls were in regular attendance and where there were always those nice private rooms with the hidden video cameras.

  27. Del Mar Dennis said, on November 12, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    Boise St. just lost a game to TCU that they DESERVED to lose. I love when that happens.
    They were given a chance, an erroneous 4th down call from the refs might I add to attempt a GW FG. I’ve always maintained the biggest difference between college ball and the NFL is FG kicking. It seems like half the schools have walk-ons from Bum Fucked, Egypt put in a position to try and win the game in the final seconds.

    And why do these Bum Fucked Egyptians missed it wide right? Because they don’t wear a kicker’s number. This boob who just missed wide right by at least 10 yds wore #31. I’ve seen many of other college kickers wear numbers from 60-99. Those are not numbers for your FG kicker. They should be suited up in a jersey from 1-19. If you want to play the part of a FG kicker, you must first look the part of a FG kicker.

    Boise St. had this one coming. They deserved to lose. Danny Noonan! Danny Noonan is a mook.

  28. zumie said, on November 12, 2011 at 5:12 pm

    I’m glad Nebraska won. If Penn St. had won, there would have been this whole storyline about how the football team overcame adversity this week, blah, blah, blah. A bunch of players and fans would have swarmed in front of Paterno’s house, giving him a hero’s audience. They could have given him a game ball. It is awful to contemplate.

  29. Alleykat said, on November 12, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    Penn St will still go to a bowl game this year and that just as tragic as what happened to the kids.It’s. all about the$$$$ in the end.bowl game revenue. will prevail. over human ethics

  30. Del Mar Dennis said, on November 12, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    The Cardinal PK just missed the PAT. What was his number?

    Ah yes, 46. Stanford deserved to miss that kick. If you’re not going to take the position seriously, your results should respond in kind.

    Would any of you guys want your criminal defense attorney defending your murder rap wearing jeans and a T-shirt? Thought not.

    Look the part. Be the part.

  31. willieD said, on November 12, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    Luck sure is smooth, nice TD right btw the DBs, great drive.
    O could very well win this game, but Luck is fun to watch carve them up.

  32. twinfan1 said, on November 12, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    Looks like 50 may not win

  33. ewisco said, on November 12, 2011 at 8:28 pm

    well that sucked on the half shell.

  34. snarkk said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:29 am

    I believe Stanford’s regular kicker was out injured for the Oregon game. The replacement guy was not so good, that’s why he’s a replacement…

  35. shaman_138 said, on November 13, 2011 at 2:19 am

    As a Cal fan, I offer my condolences to Stanford fans everywhere with this gift, the greatest Stanford comback win ever…hahaha!

    • twinfan1 said, on November 13, 2011 at 9:30 am

      Which bowl game is Cal in line for? The Coco Crispy Bowl?

      • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 10:11 am

        CAL where football is strickly mediocre.

      • shaman_138 said, on November 13, 2011 at 2:43 pm

        Stanfoo peaked against bad teams, got crushed by Oregon and almost lost to the Trojans, and still couldn’t get anywhere near a real bowl champinship game…that’s mediocrity at its best.

        Alamo Bowl for the Cards.

  36. Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 6:37 am

    Stanford D ……where was it? They looked like statues in the secondary.

  37. St said, on November 13, 2011 at 10:14 am

    Those 6 wins came against some real toughies. Think Utah is the only one with a winning record.

  38. Sierra Nevada said, on November 13, 2011 at 11:57 am

    OK twin, I’ll take a crack at this question you asked:

    Iā€™m interested in why there there would such animus towards the Penn State players.

    The obvious answer is “Of course there shouldn’t be.” But the obvious answer doesn’t go far enough. The Penn State football program has completely debased itself in this scandal, and the fact that the program holds a bunch of student-athletes hostage is no reason why the program should not be subjected to the white-hot scorn of the entire nation. That program should be known treated as Pedophile State until the administration scrubs and autoclaves the entire program.

    Normally, I would argue that the collateral damage to the innocent is too high a price to pay to get real justice. For instance, there are hundreds of financial and political elites in this country right now who absolutely deserve to be pulled out of boardrooms and legislatures and thrown in jail for the rest of their lives as punishment for what they have done to the world’s economy. But doing so would cause intense economic and political upheaval, and the folks who suffer the most in such circumstances are always huge numbers of the poor, who cannot escape. Justice is not always possible, because the elites take hostages in too great a number to risk.

    But at Pedophile State, those kids have the choice and ability to leave, the recruits coming in can de-commit and get a scholarship somewhere else. If a kid doesn’t like being associated with Pedophile State, they can either suck it up and endure it or leave. The choice to stay with a program that has debased itself in this way should come with the risk of being tarred with the brush of playing for what will be known, for the foreseeable future, as “Pedophile State.”

    • willieD said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:25 pm

      well, you can’t expect the players not to support the Paterno. Right or wrong, it wasn’t going to happen. I’m sure locals there think he is the victim of a witchhunt and is being tarred and feathered without a trial. Even tho this whole thing, the dead or missing prosecutor included, sounds like something out of a third world country or the civil rights movement in mississippi 45 yrs ago.
      The players themselves tho, at least the current ones,imo, are innocent of any wrong doing. I don’t see what you accomplish by taking the 2011 football season away from them—go after the guilty parites and let them have it. But the guys on the current team don’t have anything to do with what went on, and should at least be allowed to finish out the season, and just play football.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:39 pm

      So you’re saying these student/athetes should have left the program this week or be considered sympathizers? Your obvious answer is the correct answer, you should have stuck with it. That you would suggest that animus is justified toward players who learned of this terrible scandal just this week is ludicrous.
      There are, a I’ve indicated, several investigations about to begin, at least one by the federal government. I’ve been as horrified as anyone by what appears to have happened and there’s little doubt terrible things were done to children- but for now it’s “Allegedly Pedophile State”. This is still America.

      • Sierra Nevada said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:48 pm

        Twin, I am admitting that it is a hard question. Opinion goes both ways. This crime, and this institution, have conditioned my response in this case. My position, simply put: Until the house cleaning and full and transparent public airing really take place, that university is dirty. There have been many chances for folks to come clean since 1998, and for the innocent to escape. That time is past, and the institution should be held accountable and the innocents given the opportunity to disassociate themselves. That the institution holds those athletes hostage only makes the situation worse.

  39. unca_chuck said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    Well, at some point the institution should be held accountable for its (in)action.

    Which means the players get caught up in the fallout.

  40. Sierra Nevada said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    Oh, I agree that they should be allowed to play. I am not interested in taking away their right to represent Pedophile State.

    Specifically, I am addressing the question of how the University is using the players as p.r. hostages. I don’t think they should be allowed to do that. The players are innocent, sure. But the program is guilty of heinous crimes. The players should be given a choice if they want to be associated with the program AFTER a full house cleaning. Until then, the players are representing a reprehensible institution, full stop.

    I find it disgusting that, all of a sudden, the school wants to have everybody show up in blue to the game to show “support” for victims. That is a crass rebranding attempt that should be called out for the bullshit that it is. You support victims by doing something to help them, which the university failed repeatedly over a long history. Holding student athletes hostage and having fans wear a different shirt color isn’t going to cut it.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:59 pm

      Then restrain yourself from justifying hatred towards the players. The kids who played this weekend were not representing “Pedophile State”. Leave them out of the screed.

      • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 1:43 pm

        Twin right again!

  41. twinfan1 said, on November 13, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    When all of the facts are known ( they are *not* known now), players and ALL students and prospective students will have choices on what to do. And they certainly could leave school now since Chuck and Sierra have obviously completed their investigations. Sure, players will get caught up- they already are. That doesn’t justify ignorant people making up bogus reasons to rationalize the animus I spoke to..

    • Sierra Nevada said, on November 13, 2011 at 1:11 pm

      Twin, the reality is that situations like this create animus that goes beyond the normal bounds. If you either are, or if you care for someone who has had this kind of crime perpetrated on them, the feelings don’t obey the normal rational rules. Damage control takes on a whole new meaning in these circumstances. I don’t “make up” a rationalization for such animus, I am giving my take on its consequences.

      The onus of damage control is not on victims of sexual abuse. Not even close. Extraordinary crimes, and this cover-up* falls into the category of an extraordinary crime by an institution, puts an onus of the institution and its members, even its innocent ones. Tough shit.

      *I will start thowing in “alleged” if you like, but that window dressing doesn’t change anything any more than wearing a blue shirt to a fucking football game.

    • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 1:43 pm

      No to “animus!”

  42. twinfan1 said, on November 13, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    I didn’t see a couple of Sierra’s follow ups… But the hatred should be extended to all students there, none of whom are culpable in the alleged abuses..why save it for just the football players? Pre-Med students are repping Pedophile State, too.
    Shouldn’t all Catholics leave the church, BTW?

    • Sierra Nevada said, on November 13, 2011 at 1:16 pm

      Sorry about that Twin, I am a bit slow in my responses, and fall behind sometimes.

      And my answer is: YES, RIGHT NOW Pre-Meds are repping Pedophile State. They SHOULD be pissed off about that, AT THE INSTITUTION THAT LET IT HAPPEN.

      Believe me, when anger is well directed, true and positive change is possible.

    • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 1:44 pm

      Not before they stick some cash in the collection box! No coins allowed unless they’re valuable.

  43. twinfan1 said, on November 13, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    But should pre-med students leave the school? Many of you seem to have the entire institution being shut down rather than seing than seeing the rule of law take it’s course, punish those who are culpable, and institute meaningful change. Unfortunately, when this kind of crime occurs, the loudest voices are always from those who would scrap our rule of law. Fortrunately, those voices rarely prevail..

    • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 2:00 pm

      Agreed Twin.

    • Sierra Nevada said, on November 13, 2011 at 2:13 pm

      No twin, I don’t think the program or the school should be shut down. But I do think that the onus should be placed where it belongs – on the entire institution (which is comprised of all within its ranks). Only then will those inside the institution, the only ones who really can make a change, be motivated to root out all the problems in their own ranks.

      I do admire your principled defense of the rule of law, twin. I have faith in the rule of law, and am glad that people like myself, who for reasons of our own, would be rightly excluded from juries for folks like Sandusky or the administrators who failed in their reporting duties.

      • zumie said, on November 13, 2011 at 2:24 pm

        Sandusky’s lawyer has already admitted that Sandusky showered with the boys, so Sandusky’s defense strategy is apparently going to be that Sandusky was too stupid to realize that was wrong.
        Sandusky is going to be completely buried by the testimony of the victims.
        It only becomes a question of what the extent of blame and liability will come to Paterno, McQueary, and others.
        Then, down the road, the NCAA will bring some kind of sanctions against the football program.

      • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 2:46 pm

        Prosescute to the full extent of the law! Then sue the bastards!

      • unca_chuck said, on November 13, 2011 at 4:40 pm

        Sandusky’s going to use the Michael Jackson defense.

      • James said, on November 13, 2011 at 9:40 pm

        Child molestation, pedophilia, pederasty — if they are any good, by the time the defense team is through with the clinical hairsplitting, Paterno and Co. will look like the criminals.

  44. Sierra Nevada said, on November 13, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    On the idea of group accountability and “closing ranks”:

    Once upon a time I believed that holding everybody in a group accountable for the actions of a few within that group was always wrong. I don’t believe that anymore. There are some wrongs, and some groups, that need group accountability to address. Particularly when it comes to rape.

    IF THE WRONG INVOLVES THE EXPLOITATION OF THE POWERLESS, AND IF THE GROUP IS ONE THAT CONFERS PRIVILEGE, THEN GROUP ACCOUNTABILITY IS MANDATORY.

    There are sick folks among us. They hide in the groups like those I describe above, because they know that the loyalty of the group to defend its own and the principle of “innocent until proven guilty”* gives them cover. They also know that the privilege of the group gives them power over and access to victims. They can’t be stopped, nor can they get the help they themselves need, until they are flushed out of the cover of the group. Pressure on the group as a whole is the only way to accomplish this.

    This was not a theoretical discovery for me, but a painful one involving people I loved.

    I will never know enough to be sure that I am always being just in all my judgements. But in an imperfect world sometimes I am going to have to choose whose side I am on. I know that if I am going to make a mistake, I will make it by being on the side that stands AGAINST the members of a privileged group.

    *Please understand that I am not against “loyalty” or the principle of “innocent until proven guilty”, I am only saying that even good things can be used for wrong ends.

    • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 3:46 pm

      How about a Sierra Nevada? I’m thirsty!

  45. unca_chuck said, on November 13, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    The problem with this to me, is that everyone has pretty much acknowledged that the molestation McQueary witnesssed went all the way to the president of the school. When the president of the institution passes the buck, what should the fallout be? I don’t think for one second that the players share any of the blame, or should get any hatred directed at them.

    But the head coach, the president, and numerous others KNEW what had happened and didn’t do anything at the cost of saving the institution. Even the ONE instance that seems to be the tipping point should be enough to go after the institution. They should accept some of the penalty for allowing this to go on.

  46. unca_chuck said, on November 13, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    How ’bout them Niners??

    8 and fucking 1 . . !

    • shaman_138 said, on November 13, 2011 at 5:00 pm

      Pretty impressive.

      • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 5:28 pm

        NINERS!

  47. unca_chuck said, on November 13, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Whether it’s sanctions, no more bowl games, whatever, there should be some penalty. More than what they’ve already done? Well, i guess we have to wait and see what comes up in the investigation.

    The likely outcome is no bowl games for 5 years. They won’t shut down the team. Most of the people involved are already gone, but the institution loses out on bowl money.

    • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 5:30 pm

      BLEEP!

  48. Flavor said, on November 13, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    I don’t really fault the players– all of them are there on scholarships. If there is a walk on guy who stood there applauding Paterno and didn’t see the moral obligation to quit the team, then he’s a chump. I don’t think it’s fair, though, to have a kid who can’t afford college give up his education over this. Transfer next year if you can do it and it makes sense for your career…….

  49. Flavor said, on November 13, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    Great to see Matheny get the Cardinal managerial position. He’s going to have an uphill battle if he loses Pujols but I think he’s going to be a fantastic manager……..

    • Nipper said, on November 13, 2011 at 5:31 pm

      Yeah!

    • snarkk said, on November 13, 2011 at 6:07 pm

      I am predicting now that someday Buster Posey will be a manager or general manager. After, hopefully, a HOF playing career…

  50. ewisco said, on November 13, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    can we let penn state go? niners are 8-1. nice victory. stanford out of the big picture but oregon has now inserted themselves. i don’t know about you but i wouldn’t mind seeing an lsu-oregon rematch. and oak state looks awfully good.

    did i mention that the niners are 8-1?


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