A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Our Shortstop in 2012….and Beyond

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on November 16, 2011

After the Phillies forked over way too much dough to Paplebon and potentially Cuddyer and Oswalt, I’ve had this mini fantasy that there won’t be much left over for J-Roll and he’d leave them in a huff to return to his Bay Area homeland. I don’t think anyone, including the Phillies, will offer him more than a 3 year deal, maybe 40 million or so. But I’ve gotten further away from that dream as I’ve looked in more detail at the long term plan Sabean has for that position.

The fact is, Sabean has set the position up nicely for years to come. Three of our best options are Crawford (24, drafted in the 4th rd 2008), Ehire Adrianza (signed not drafted in 2006) and Joe Panik (drafted out of St John’s in rd 1 of the June Amateur draft in 2011). They’ve all shown promise and one of those guys should be able to take over SS for us in the next 0-2 years. Adrianza has been kinda fiddling around in the low minors until this last year. He’s had an all-glove/no hit label like a lot of SS until he hit .300 at San Jose this year. Curiously he stopped running, he stole 33 bases in 2010 vs only 5 last year in about half the number of at bats. But he got nailed 15 times in ’10 so maybe he just decided to stop being so reckless. Still, hitting .300 at San Ho doesn’t mean much since most of the pitchers in that league are down there throwing heat and not much else. If you’ve got a quality breaking pitch you can go to the next level but most of the pitchers down there, as I said, are throwing straight balls that is preferred by most low-level hitters. Still, .300 isn’t a BAD thing, let’s just see him do it at the next  level.

Panik is a guy who’s only 21 but he’s begun his profession as he played at St John’s. He’s torn up Salem-Keizer and he’s doing the same in the AFL. So far, this guy is showing he’s got hitting .300 down pat. We’ll see how he progresses through the system but this is a guy who has hit at every level he’s ever been at, something the other 2 guys can’t say…….

Crawford is a tough one. Does anyone LOOK more like a ball player than Crawford? He’s a hometown guy. Looks like he has the perfect body to play the game. And then he swings and….underwhelming results. He’s going to be 25 in January so it needs to start happening for him quickly. He’s hitting .296 in the AFL. Not bad but nothing that you can bank on translating into anything in SF next year….

While I was disappointed to see Sabean offer Willie Bloomquist a 2 year deal, I understand that the market for free agent SS’s sucks this year. I really don’t want to give someone like Barmes or Santiago a 2 year deal though I think that’s what they’ll get somewhere. It all comes back to what I said yesterday. The best idea is to lock Keppy up for a year in arbitration, give the gig to Crawford in 2012 and hope he can hit enough to justify having his glove in the line up. Actually, Barmes makes a modicum of sense if it’s not Keppy since he can also play 2nd base. He can fill in for Freddy when he’s DL-bound……..

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  1. willieD said, on November 16, 2011 at 7:44 am

    I guess it depends on what you are looking for in a SS to play for the Giants. I doubt Rollins comes here; I think he will not find an offer he likes from a contender and will settle for what Philly gives him eventually.
    So…what do you want? Barmes has had a few seasons where he slugs at near .400 or better, tho he is not a high OB guy. Santiago does not have that kind of pop, nor obviously does Crawford, whose OPS last season could not get over the .600 mark. How imp are the offensive stats?
    Can SF afford a defense only type player who makes the routine plays and turns DPs? If you sign one more bat (like Beltran), can you survive with a Johnny LeMaster .200 hitter (in other words, Crawford and Font) in the LU every day? And if you don’t, do you need a better hitter at that position?
    Alex Gonzalez, no. Kepp, for whatever reason, hasn’t played there…if the Giants thought he was the everyday answer, there wouldn’t be any need for this whole discussion, since he is reasonably priced and a decent enough hitter with much experience.
    I dunno where Sabes mind set is. He knows he f-ed this position up all season, doesn’t have a great track record there lately, and it cost the team dearly 2011. Hold over vet for a year? Hope the prospects blossom quickly? Offense/ defense?

  2. willieD said, on November 16, 2011 at 8:02 am

    Coach K…for some reason in my coaching travels at HS level I have wound up around huge Carolina fans, who always brag about ACC superiority, esp in comparison to anything from west coast. Even tho they hate duke, they hold them up as evidence (alongside Wake and NC state) of the high quality of b-ball in the state. Add in Maryland and Gary Williams and occasional good teams from Seminoles, UVA, Clemson, lot of solid pros in the past. Their recruiting classes are always at the top, from best of the locals to all around the country (and out, too).
    Duke seems to have cornered the market on the most annoying of them, year in and year out (even his assitants like Wojo are annoying). I do recall the controversy Coach K created with his diatribe at Corey Maggette, who left after a year to turn pro; Coach K was livid and accused him of trying to “ruin my program.” Obviously, that hasn’t happened. This happens regularly today, esp in the Pac 10, which has produced a number of NBA stars that didn’t spend much time at college…I’ll leave the argument of whether any of that time was spent in the classroom to your imagination.
    Personally, I think Montgomery is at least his equal, if not better as a pure coach, and if he could recruit the type of talent that Roy williams and K get every year, he’d be pretty tough to beat.

  3. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 9:38 am

    I’ve explained the reason Kepp very well might end up if playing SS if he and Crawford are both retained, I’m not going to do it again. If Keppinger is not retained, here are your FA shortstops, not counting Rollins/Reyes. You like anybody better than Barmes or Santiago, get over to Room B and have Amendola’s baby.Comments are from Charlie Saponara of fantasybaseball365.com. I agree with them.

    “3. Rafael Furcal (34) – Injuries have really become a problem for Furcal over the last few years. While he still grades out well defensively, it’s anyone’s guess how long he’ll stay on the field. That being said, there is enough upside in his glove and bat to warrant plenty of attention and upside is something this free agent group lacks.

    4. Clint Barmes (33) – Barmes may be the overlooked asset of this group. Those who focus on his AVG will miss the fact that he is an excellent defender with some pop in his bat. While Barmes may never be a great OBP guy, he still has the upside to be at least league average in that category.

    5. Alex Gonzalez (34) – How many teams are interested in a career .247/.291/.399 hitter coming off a .241/.270/.372 season? Unfortunately, some team will. To be fair, Gonzalez can pop a few balls out of the yard and has been a good defensive shortstop over his career.

    6. Ramon Santiago (32) – Santiago brings versatility to the field, though his arm strength doesn’t play as well at third or short. Offensively, he handles the bat well and has some pop. He’s the type of utility infielder that teams are always looking for.

    7. John McDonald (37) – Well, he can play defense.

    8. Caesar Izturiz (32) – Well, he can play defense.

    9. Yunieski Betancourt (30) – If the Brewers exercise his $6M club option, I’ll walk to Milwaukee and slap Doug Melvin in the face (and that’s a long walk for me!). When you have a shortstop who consistently grades out as below average on defense and consistently posts OBPs below .300, you don’t really have much of an asset, let alone $6M one.

    10. Jack Wilson (34) – Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel. Wilson, at one point, was a tremendous fielder, but injuries have been a major issue over the last few years. His bat basically hollow. A team looking to add a veteran defensive minded shortstop to their bench might give Wilson a look in 2012.”

    • Nipper said, on November 16, 2011 at 10:05 am

      Thank you Twin!

      • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 10:32 am

        As always, you are all welcome. I’m delighted that Craig has now said that he’d also retain Keppinger. I would also remind the riff raff that TWO utilty infielders are the norm.

  4. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 10:09 am

    Actually, Crawdaddy looks more a second place finisher on American Idol than a baseball player. I will agree that he *looks* like he should hit better than he does. Maybe he will, but there’s nothing encouraging on that front, just hope. There’s a lot of talk that if they got a Beltran, they could afford his lack of offense. No, they couldn’t. I’d much rather take our chances on the best defensive CFer in baseball if we’re going that route.

    • Nipper said, on November 16, 2011 at 10:29 am

      He can’t hit period.

  5. Nipper said, on November 16, 2011 at 10:50 am

    With the questionable durability of the infielders, having superior utlity players coming off the bench is invaluable.

    • St said, on November 16, 2011 at 11:16 am

      Durability should be an issue after the frustration with Renteria, DeRosa, Sanchez and to some extent Uribe. Doubtful they would consider a guy like Furcal.

  6. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 11:31 am

    I think the view from the Lynch Lodge has been well represented in the POTD before.. And it doesn’t address the fact the student/atheletes are NOT deputies- agents – delegates – proxies – spokespersons – exponents for “Pedophile State” by virtue of opting to remain there.
    And now THIS:
    “I fully expect that they will not like being associated with the kind of culture that turned their institution into Pedophile State, and that they will freaking do something about it. They won’t like the stigma, and will take care of it within their ranks”
    That was MY position, ferchrisakes.Yours was that unless they leave they are representatives of Ped State..fucking pay attention.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 11:41 am

      “Fact is, players and students are not guilty by association, and the university would be far better served if these students and student/athletes remain and work toward seeing to it that these alleged crimes can never occur here again, or at least are never allowed to continue once an alleged perpetrator has been identified. “( Twin)
      So Sierra’s rebuttal, after initially stating that student/athletes who didn’t leave were, in essence, agents of evil, is this:

      “I fully expect that they will not like being associated with the kind of culture that turned their institution into Pedophile State, and that they will freaking do something about it. They won’t like the stigma, and will take care of it within their ranks”

  7. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 11:49 am

    I see that many here actually agree with what I’ve said. In fact, I’ve seen zero support for that preposterous notion that Sierra put forth about students being agents of Ped State ( has a catchy ring to it said that way). Obviously what I proposed and Sierra accidentally agreed with, is the only reasonable position:”Fact is, players and students are not guilty by association, and the university would be far better served if these students and student/athletes remain and work toward seeing to it that these alleged crimes can never occur here again, or at least are never allowed to continue once an alleged perpetrator has been identified. “

  8. ewisco said, on November 16, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    Look, it’s a matter for the court now. so maybe we could give it a rest.

  9. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 12:23 pm

    Get the fucking Bullshit POTD outta here then. THAT is the crap perpetuating this. Courts? What fucking courts? We don’t need no steenking courts. That’s for America.. uh, wait..

    • Nipper said, on November 16, 2011 at 12:37 pm

      Twin is fired up, ready to take on all comers!

    • ewisco said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:13 pm

      why do we need courts? Isn’t that what the media is for? Try it in the media and then everyone gets to vote on American Jailbird! Have Simon do a little interview before the sentencing!

  10. Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    Well twin, I’m gonna disagree with your statement that there is “only one reasonable position.” I respect your stand for the rule of law, but I still disagree with you about institutional culpability.

    It has been proven over and over that pedophiles are not deterred by anything, even the threat of a life behind bars. So all we can do is, as you quite reasonably say, is to let law enforcement, the courts, and prisons deal with them. No argument there.

    But institutions have a great deal of power, and often act as shields for perps from due process. In fact, I really don’t see how one can view Penn State’s institutional response to this crisis from 1998 on any other way. Maybe I’m wrong, but this looks like a collosal collective failure by a whole bunch of folks within an institution. Sandusky was shielded, intentionally or untintentionally, by the institution from any real and meaningful law enforcement response. And it looks like his victims paid a price for this.

    So, reasonably, since we can’t deter the (alleged) Sandusky’s of the world, I say we deter the institutions. How do we do that? Collective guilt. Institutions CAN be deterred. If Ped State pays a high enough collective price, some other institutions, and the powerful within them, will take note. It won’t stop the next (alleged) Sanduskys from existing, but it will reduce the number of places they can hide. Which will reduce the number of victims.

    “We are Penn State!” is how the cheer goes, I believe. Fine. Wear it, assholes.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:36 pm

      You’re avoiding the fact that after all your blather showing what a MAN you are, you end up echoing my position on Penn Staters DOING something about the culture, not fleeing as you originally said was the right thing. And as is often the case, much of your argument is against positions I never took. Anyway, I’m happy to drop it as soon as the POTD is removed and relaced by a non-PSU related one. As long as it’s up, I will attack it as you have stated things about my position that are patently and intentionally untrue- “You act like Penn Staters are too weak to be able to handle the truth about their institution. ” I’ve said the opposite- that they battle this problem THERE, not escape to Temple…don’t use false statementsabout my position to attempt to further yours.

      • Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:56 pm

        Yep, much of my argument is about my postition, which of course has nothing to do with any position you take. And if I mischaracterize your position, I am glad to be corrected.

        However, if you have a problem with others misrepresenting your positions, maybe you should avoid doing so yourself. I didn’t say that everyone at Ped State should be “fleeing”. If you don’t like people making shit up about what you say, maybe you should avoid doing so yourself.

        What I did say was that the players should be allowed to leave, given the choice of being associated with the institution. That puts pressure on the institution, because when people abandon an institution, it is doomed.

      • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:08 pm

        You clearly said that a player staying should be considered a *representative* of Ped State. Now you are lying about you said. *I* said that student/athletes are not guily by association and that their best course of action was to remain and battle against the culture and see to it these atrocities are not repeated. Then you fucking echo what I said and claim it as your position. You are FOS.

      • Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:19 pm

        No doubt I am full of shit. But lying, nope. You seem to be under the impression that I am moving away from saying that the players, students, faculty, and administration represent Pedophile State, and that the stigma sticks to them too. I am not moving away from that.

        If it works for you to continue to whine about people misrepresenting your position, I will again suggest that you cut it the fuck out yourself.

      • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:31 pm

        You NEVER said, until I did, that “that they battle this problem THERE” You said NOTHING about
        “I fully expect that they will not like being associated with the kind of culture that turned their institution into Pedophile State, and that they will freaking do something about it. They won’t like the stigma, and will take care of itvwithin their ranks.”
        Your original position said nothing of the kind, nothing about doing somnething about it. You only smeared them by accusing those who did not leave of being agents of Ped State. I had to state that they should do something about it before you suddenly adopted that as your position. The posts and time line are clear on that so why don’t you just STFU? And I want that POTD that lies about my stated position DOWN.

      • Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:03 pm

        Keep up the good fight, twin.

  11. Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    Of course the real reason I read this blog is to learn about the Giants and baseball. If I could get a POTD by making a worthwhile post on a shortstop, I would be a happier dude.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:57 pm

      Actually, most of your posts seem to be about calling someone out, a couple about Craig, now a few misrepresenting or distorting my posts. Why DON’T you try one on a shortstop? How about lying and saying I want Jack Wilson? That would get you a POTD for sure.

      • Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:04 pm

        Cause I try not to lie if I can avoid it.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:11 pm

      Wonder if Craig would make your post saying he was celebrating Howard’s injury the POTD?

  12. SanDawg said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    I like Crawford more than most of you do. I have no problem coming into the year counting on him holding down the job. He has a good approach at the plate and I expect him to hit the ball harder as he gets more big league AB’s. If Barmes can still play short, I’m fine with Crawdad starting with Barmes as one of our utility guys. PLEASE don’t compare Crawford to LeMaster. LeMaster was horrible both in the field and at bat. To me, no one player better exemplifies the lousy Giants teams I grew up with than Johnny. I’m always amazed when he gets any props from you guys. Revisionist history big time in my book!

    WillieD—love the hoops takes. Wojo bugs me as well. I have always despised Coach K since he pulled that stunt where he ambushed the guys from the school newspaper for being too critical of his players. The 2 ACC guys I always loved were Lefty Driessel and Valvano.
    I saw a little bit on ESPN the other day where Jay Bilas visited Calipari at a Kentucky practice. It was pretty entertaining watching him deal with his players. He was more intense than I would have guessed.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:20 pm

      I haven’t said he shouldn’t get a shot, just that I doubt he’ll work out and they’d better have a back up plan. It’s taken a long fucking time but a few seem to now be seeing the wisdom of that. Free clue for all: a back up SS is not going to be an All-Star..

  13. Big flavor said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:56 pm

    Outside of some recent posts from Sierra Nevada I haven’t seen too many that should replace it. Maybe San dawg’s last night, I’ll switch it later today.

    • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 1:59 pm

      That’s bullshit but why don’t you replace it with the one where you said to skip the trial ?

  14. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    As has been reported, 9 of 10 people who witness sexual abuse of a minor, tell NO ONE about it. My own additional research shows that of the 9, 3 blog about how they’d beat the shit out of a pedophile, 2 blog that no trial of the accused is necessary, 2 blog that anyone with anything to do with the institution/firm is either culpable or an agent of the evil commited, the other two held the victim down… really, “DUDES”, here’s another thing we ALL know- this has almost nothing to with Sandusky and his alleged crimes- it’s about Joe Paterno. Admit it and you might sleep better- Sandusky is likely to get a few hundred years and you think Joe should get the same.. I can tell when you’re lying, so don’t try it…

    • Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:53 pm

      Twin, I’m willing to guess that, at one time in history, 9 out of 10 of people were OK with institutional racism. Moral outrage and changes in the law have been moving that statistic in the right direction.

      I have no problem with the outrage over this, even given the fact that 9 out of 10 can be shown to be hypocrites on this issue. The outrage, hypocritical or no, just might move the statistic in a better direction. And if that means that more perps get caught earlier and less kids get abused, that is ok with me.

      • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:10 pm

        Are you actually trying to insinuate that I’m OK with witnesses not reporting a rape of a child? Since you’re slow on nuance, I’ll help you: I’d highly doubt you’d be the one in ten who would do anything. Your bogus outrage and smearing of innocent people doesn’t speak of someone who would intervene or report the crime. I fiugure you as one who would blog about what he’d do..

      • Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:17 pm

        No, I am not trying to insinuate that. What I AM saying is that hypocritical outrage is not always a bad thing.

      • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:21 pm

        Well, you’re doing your part then

      • Sierra Nevada said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:27 pm

        Now, that is funny!

    • TedSpe said, on November 16, 2011 at 2:53 pm

      Are you sure that 9 of 10 statistic applies to “witnesses” as opposed to victims? Victims I would understand but witnesses? That’s a bit alarming. I can even understand hesitancy in reporting as a witness based on who the perp was (close friend/relative, authority figure, etc.) but eventually…Anyway, if that’s true, like I said, a bit alarming

      • twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:17 pm

        I read that yesterday, I’ll try to find it again. But it doesn’t hurt anybody to research the subject rather than make ridiculous assertions smearing students, workers, and faculty at PSU..( that’s not for you, obviously)

  15. stixwiz said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    Currently leading off for MLB Trade Rumors is an article indicating that the Giants are strong on giving Matt Cain an extended contract offer as well as the one they have been said to be offering Lincecum. Due to hit Free Agency after next season, Cain may be given a four year offer, with indications that a similarly structured deal has been offered to Timmy, who would be a F.A. after two more seasons.

    This pair of aces is clearly worth every reasonable effort the team could possibly tender. Four years may seem stretchy to those who are still feeling burned over the organization’s 7-year deal to land an alleged ace. But between their relatively young ages and the strides they have already made in their careers, Timmy and Matt for another four years would probably, with the addition of Bumgarner, virtually assure SF will be a competitive team throughout those four seasons.

  16. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Until the POTD is removed, baseball talk isn’t going far here, Stix. Thanks for trying, though.

  17. twinfan1 said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    Well, good news- I try not to post after 3 or so anymore and don’t read the comments after that. Too close to “Happy Hour” for many. I’ll check out Sierra’s latest POTD tomorrow. Nighty nite, mates.

  18. ewisco said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    Sleep well Twin.

    Yes, four years seems good. maybe with an option. no reason not to keep matt and tim though with any pitcher there’s some risk.

  19. St said, on November 16, 2011 at 3:38 pm

    Nothing new there re Cain, sabean has mde it clear that was an off season priority. It would be news if Cain and the G’s couldn’t reach an agreement.

  20. stixwiz said, on November 16, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    For sure every other team in the Division and the League would not like to see extensions worked out with Matt and Timmy. Throw in Bumgarner, reasonably effective fourth and fifth starters; a good relief corps and even a mediocre offense and every other outfit out there will be panting to keep up.
    A fifth starter, a reasonable backup catcher and a journeyman shortstop and this team will be primed, prepped and powerful.
    The schematics of most other probable contenders generally include adding one or more major pieces to become viable. Going into the 2012 season the Giants are the envy of much of baseball.

    • zumie said, on November 16, 2011 at 5:56 pm

      They have a fifth starter. His name is Barry Zito. It’s almost certain he will start the season as the #5 guy. Maybe his last hurrah. Let’s say he starts out 0-3, 5.50 ERA. Maybe they finally release him. Maybe.

  21. PawlieKokonuts said, on November 16, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    I think San Dawg’s POTD is the longest. Length matters.

  22. Big flavor said, on November 16, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    I think the plan for Zits is clear: if he’s pitching his usual shit-self, they’ll DL him. Last year he appeared to have 2 legit injuries but his recovery time was bogus. From 2012 on they might have to *find* an injury, but they’ll still get him to the DL and warehouse him there.
    But I don’t think he’ll be released until his first set of failed appearances in 2013…
    Of course there is the team option to carefully consider in 2014. Baha! But, the joke is on us, I think the buy out is 7 million or so.

    • Nipper said, on November 17, 2011 at 5:19 am

      ZITO will not be forgotten. Mediocrity pays well in America!

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