A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Torres/Ramirez for Pagan: Who Wins?

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on December 7, 2011

To me, this is a fantastic trade in terms of what a trade SHOULD be all about. Both teams are taking some risk here, both could obviously reap a big reward, either could end up looking bad, and the main component isn’t about shedding salary (well, a little bit for the Giants). We obviously won’t know the winner and the loser in this one until the season plays out. It’s possible that neither Pagan or Torres return to their 2010 glory. Both players are getting a fresh chance with a new team but if both stay fizzled in their 2011 form it won’t be the biggest surprise. Obviously, both Sabean AND Alderson think their *guy* won’t bounce back or they wouldn’t be making the trade. And since Pagan had a little bit better year than Torres and it could be argued that he has a slightly better chance to return to being a productive player at the plate, Sabes had to throw Ramirez in, too. I’m fine with that.

Here’s another thing, assuming they’re both healthy in ST, I think they will both be starting outfielders for their respective squads when camp breaks in 2012. Torres is going to slide right into the CF position for the Mets. And despite the early talk about Pagan being a 4th OF for us, I think that’s a bunch of poppycock. Huff will be starting at first base with Pagan in CF and Melky in LF. I don’t care what you hear out of Bochy and Sabean TODAY, barring injury, this will be the plan on Opening Day. Feel free to copy and paste this back in my face if it doesn’t happen.

I think Sabean has been fairly brilliant with his “Melky/Pagan” moves. Three things we didn’t have last year (well, AT LEAST 3 things we didn’t have last year): 1) a lead off guy 2) speed/stolen base threats 3) reliable right handed bats. Melky and Pagan improve us in ALL three of those areas. Now, I’m not certain about what this does to the LU, but IF it goes Pagan/Melky/Panda then we now have 3 competent switch hitters in a row in the first third of our line up— that is huge, especially later in a game when managers try to go *match ups* on us. Now, Freddy will probably bat 2nd but you can at least see the possibility of our line up looking like that should Bochy decide to go that way.

Defense really isn’t taking a hit here. If this move pushes Huff back to 1st base then it has IMPROVED our outfield defense. Torres wasn’t going to start for us in 2012. So while it cannot be argued that Pagan is even in the same ballpark as Andres defensively, it’s not really something to compare since our ACTUAL outfield defense just got better (unless you think that Huff is a better defensive outfielder than Pagan and if you think that I can’t help you)……

Another thing I’m not worried about: The fact that the Mets were willing to part with Pagan. For starters, the Mets suck. Bad teams make bad decisions, that just what they do. Alderson is trying to fix that mess and it can’t be argued that his sole opinion is that Andres is more like than Pagan to bounce back to 2010 form since he got Ramirez in the deal, too. It can be argued that it is far more likely that Sabean feels Pagan is the more likely bounce back candidate since he’s the one throwing in the *extra* into the deal. And Sabean has made way too many good decisions over the last couple of years to not give him the benefit of the doubt on this. Again, I’m on record as liking both the Melky and the Pagan acquisitions, and if they both fail then feel free to remind me later. Just remember, we had one of the worst offenses in the history of baseball last year so it’s not like Melky has to reproduce 2011 or Pagan has to be Pagan-2010 for this to be considered a success for Sabean. Coming close to either year will be enough to make us better offensively. Considering the financial restrictions that he’s under, I think he’s having a fabulous off season so far……..

170 Responses

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  1. PawlieKokonuts said, on December 7, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    I’ll repeat my assertion from a few days ago: Sabean is bristling at his $130M budget and pines for Neukom’s regime. But he’s a big boy, knows his job, and knows he has to deal with these abstemious Boehner-Kyl-McConnellish constraints from the Fat Cats In Charge (FCIC). Parse his words. He ain’t pleased. Who would be? However, like one swimming in a Proustian sea of words, drunk on syntax and apostrophe (and parentheses), Sabean may have a resentful and I’ll-show-you angry pleasure in puzzling out and distilling gold from his slim pannings — like reducing Joyce’s “Ulysses” to one haiku.

    • ewisco said, on December 7, 2011 at 8:51 pm

      i believe he said:

      we came
      we saw
      we kicked their ass

      it’s like haiku, but different.

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 7, 2011 at 8:54 pm

        who? Sabean? or Proust? or Joyce? sounds more like Caesar, before his salad days hahahahahahahahahahaha

    • blade3colorado said, on December 7, 2011 at 8:57 pm

      For whatever reason, after I read that Pawlie, I kept on thinking of this exchange from When Harry Met Sally . . .

      Sally Albright: But I’d like the pie heated and I don’t want the ice cream on top, I want it on the side, and I’d like strawberry instead of vanilla if you have it, if not then no ice cream just whipped cream but only if it’s real; if it’s out of the can then nothing.
      Waitress: Not even the pie?
      Sally Albright: No, I want the pie, but then not heated.

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:02 pm

        gee, Blade, you got me all worked up; I was expecting the Other Famous Thing from that movie

    • blade3colorado said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:04 pm

      Yeah, “I want what she’s having” too . . .

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:06 pm

        ah, I mean oooooooooooooooooooooh and aaaaaaaaaaaaah
        fer fecksake why am I as hypercaffeinated as Freddy Sanchez at bat in WS gm 5???

  2. PawlieKokonuts said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:00 pm

    Don’t get me wrong, I have a distaste for the unpalatable Marlins and their owner Jeffrey Loria (who swapped teams; remember? he owned the Expos; and according to Baggs, Felipe Alou says the guy promised Alou a case of wine after he fired Alou; still waiting), but I don’t find their logo and new unis so bad. I sort of like the design. So, for me, it’s like a good Catholic boy was taught: loathe the sin but love the sinner. Wait. Nope. Doesn’t work here. G’night.

  3. twinfan1 said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    Unlike the fiction being promoted here, there *is* disagreement on who got the better of this. Not surprisingly, Mets fans don’t seem unhappy with Pagan’s departure.
    I liked Ramirez- but the number 4 RHed reliever is hardly an tough guy to replace.
    Here’s part of one the many tributes to Vungo, I suspect you won’t find similar on Pagan..(this from Grant at McCovey Chronicles
    “When I think of the 2010 World Series, I think of Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain, Edgar Renteria and Madison Bumgarner. When I think of the 2010 NLCS, I think of Cody Ross and Juan Uribe, with the usual suspects mixed in. When I think of the 2010 NLDS, I think of Ross and Lincecum again, maybe with a little Brooks Conrad mixed in.

    When I think about the 2010 season — from start to finish — I think about Andres Torres…

    “Thank you, thank you, thank you Andres Torres. You’ll always be one of my favorite Giants of all-time, even if you only stuck around long enough to get 1,000 at-bats or so. You’ll be missed.”
    The Mets got a fine player and an even finer man.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:05 pm

      well, there is ample disagreement here on the trade and not one hint of a scintilla of disagreement from anyone on your last four words.

      • twinfan1 said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:16 pm

        I’m not sure I consider 33-4 ample disagreement, nor do I see it in the comments. But whatever, if you say so.

      • Macdog said, on December 7, 2011 at 11:19 pm

        Twin, we’re up to 4 now? Wonder who the other two are.

  4. twinfan1 said, on December 7, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    If you’d like to argue that Bill James is wrong ( his 2012 projections indicate that the trades weaken the team offensively), there’s a link to the right…

  5. DJLoo said, on December 8, 2011 at 6:02 am

    I heard late last night that the Giants announced that they are officially out on Beltran…


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