A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Payroll Ceiling and *Why Can’t We be the Marlins??* (use your best whiny voice)

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on December 8, 2011

KNBR callers were boo-hooin’ yesterday about the Giants payroll ceiling of 130 million. “Why can’t they do what the Marlins are doing?????” caller after caller whined to Ralph and Tom. Shockingly, The hosts didn’t respond with an answer, they almost seemed to feel the same way…..

They didn’t remind them that the Marlins are moving into a brand new stadium with accompanying new revenue streams. They didn’t remind them that the Marlins had a payroll of 57 million last year. In 2010 it was 47 million. In 2009 it was 36 million. That’s a total of about 140 million in three seasons, 10 million more than the Giants will be spending this year alone….

And is anyone stopping to look at how the Marlins are spending their money? Reyes for 106 million. Buehrle for 58 million. Bell for 27 million. And they tried (and look to have failed) to give 32 year old Albert Pujols a 10 year deal.  Assuming they’ve dodged the Pujols bullet, let’s see what those other 3 are going to cost this year (approximately): Reyes 17 mil, Buehrle 14 mil, and Bell 9 mil. That’s 40 million more added to the 57 million they spent last year and they still aren’t to 100 million. In 2012 there isn’t a reason in the world why a team with a brand new stadium shouldn’t have a payroll of AT LEAST 100 million. Maybe they will after all there other guys settle in arbitration. The point is that The Marlins aren’t doing anything extraordinary. It just seems that way because it’s, you know, THE MARLINS.

They’ll be good next year but not JUST because of those additions. And they are NO LOCK by any means. J-John is going to have to come back and be healthy and be the ace of that staff. It sure as hell won’t be Buehrle who’s like a *rich man’s Carlos Silva*. Granted, he’s better than that guy, but he’s cut from the same mold, an innings eater who scored a big deal with Seattle a few years ago for no good reason. Mark my words: Buerhle’s dukey-crap isn’t going to fly in the NL. he’s an AL pitcher. 58 million not well spent, in my opinion.

Heath Bell? Yeah, I like Bell. But it’s not like he’s filling some huge hole from last year. Leo Nunez (or whatever his REAL name is) saved 66 games for them the last 2 years. My point is that Bell isn’t going to measurably impact that side of the game for them. He’s just going to step in and keep it going. 27 million is a lot of cheese to spend to just keep the status quo…….

And then there is Jose Reyes. If you think Reyes is going to stay healthy for the length of this deal then you have more faith in him than I do. He could be great next year, a super star. Or, his hammy could go on him at any point in the season and he’ll be turned into a cheerleader (and probably a bad one).

So while everyone is marveling at the Marlins this off season I’ll be LQTM at them. We will have a better record than they will in 2012………

Retro Action Time……………..


It’s Augst 12th, 1979. Giants win 4-1. The wheels have fallen off pretty good this season so I’m skipping through it rather quickly. We are in 3rd place but 12 games out. The Dodgers are in town for this Sunday afternoon game and they’re in 4th place, 15.5 games behind. Vida Blue is going against Jerry Reuss. Vida isn’t having the best year but he manages to go the distance in this one lowering his ERA to an unsightly 5.19. No pinch hitters or relievers used in this one by the Giants.

67 Responses

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  1. Giant Head said, on December 8, 2011 at 6:55 am

    Well said on Buerhle…what a ridiculous contract. He will be there Zito. One thing I think they have done well and likely unintentional, they have paved the way tro get Hanley Ramirez out of town without it looking like they are responsible.

    They realize he is a cancer and once they can find anyone willing to take that contract, he will be gone…

  2. blade3colorado said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:33 am

    Pujols is an Angel . . . $250 to $260 million contract over 10 years.

  3. blade3colorado said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:35 am

    This deal actually makes half way sense with him going to an American League club, i.e., he can DH after a few years. Conversely, him making this much money with an NL club for 10 years is ridiculous.

    • Flavor said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:40 am

      yes, from that angle it makes more sense. But I think we are going to start seeing a slow down turn for Pujols. We already saw it a little last year His HR’s were off, it was his first non-100 RBI year, his first non-.300 year. And in a contract year no less…..
      10 more years of this dude? Ha, they’ll regret this for sure………..

      • blade3colorado said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:55 am

        Definitely . . . That’s why I said “half-way sense.” Sort of like half witted. 😉

        Seriously though, I thought the first ARod deal was laughable for $252 million with the Rangers, then the Yankees trumped that idiotic deal with the $275 smackers. Amazing that these owners got to where they are.

    • Bozo said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:55 am

      It does make sense for the Angels, with the AL West the way it is they should be at the top of that Division for the next couple of years. 10 years is a long time though, if Pujols starts to break down like Vlad did, the Angels may regret this around year four or five.

  4. Alleykat said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:55 am

    Cards better make a run for Fielder now.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:58 am

      Are you serious Alleykat? They should be relieved and thankful that Pujols is gone. With their fan base, they could put out a triple A team and still fill the stands. Pujols leaving did them a BIG favor, where they don’t have to take the blame. Their last offer was more than reasonable (or insane) . . .

      • Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:14 am

        Perhaps the A’s can move to St Louis and become the Browns.

      • Bozo said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:31 am

        Blade, I saw the Cards Triple A team in New Orleans last year, they sucked.

      • Macdog said, on December 8, 2011 at 12:22 pm

        “They should be relieved and thankful that Pujols is gone.” Say what? Two WS titles during his 10-year career there isn’t too bad. Only Boston has won as many titles since Pujols came into the league.

  5. willieD said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:02 am

    The Marlins should be competitive, tho that is going to be a very tough division except of course for Mets. Buehrle might be one of those guys who lends the vet presence to help younger guys on the staff, but his best days are long behind him. Agree they dump Hanley, which could get them a solid player in return.
    I don’t get the idea the Mets are all of a sudden a team headed in the right direction that is making sound judgements about anyone. Torres and Ramirez will help them with defense (esp alongside Bay) and in the pen (more than those other two chumps they picked up, francisco and rauch). If you going to lose 90-100 games, then the ones you are ahead in you’d want to try and hold onto lead with quality set up guy and D.
    But what about offense? Alderson could not have made a deal last year for Reyes, at the very top of his game, for more than draft picks? End result you have zero immediate help for losing Reyes and Beltran, two of the best hitters on the market in all of baseball. And you are still stuck with Jason Bay, who must be a great guy in the clubhouse.

    • Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:11 am

      Jason Bay….I remember the hyper crowd crying for him a few years back.

  6. Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:09 am

    10 years for anyone is silly. They probably figure to get six good years out of Pujols and DH him for a few more and then just laugh off the rest of it. HA HA …..it’s only big time money. The Giants better start laughing off the Zito contract soon.

  7. St said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:10 am

    Crazy. In Oct, Moreno was saying he wanted to reduce payroll.

  8. willieD said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:16 am

    Fangraphs looked at the A-Rod contract in their column about Reyes deal and a few others in this vein….Pujols will probably not be over valued for at least the first few years in terms of WAR. By having the option to DH he can rest more often, and you still keep that big bat in the LU. Plus he makes the entire LU around him more dangerous, and puts them into immediate contention for titles (esp if Texas loses Wilson). And this what you have to pay for that—it’s not about the money.
    Side benefit is making them more attractive to other potential FAs, and making it easier for Angels to add necessary pieces to the puzzle. Everyone knew it didn’t matter how much money A’s dangled in front of Adrian Beltre, he wasn’t going there. Angels draw well, nice area with good weather, bucks up owner not afraid to spend money to win, vet mgr= all good.

    • Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:29 am

      Yeah and those Angels took a WS Championship away in 02. Giants should trade with Houston and get into the American League WEST! Forget the Dodgers! Welcome the DH!

  9. Flavor said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:56 am

    And the Angles are the LAST team who should do this. They’ve got Morales coming back and Trumbo is a 25 year old stud who banged out 29 bombs in his first full year. If I’m an Angels fan, I’m like “For who? For what?”

    • Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:06 am

      No way…..they’re happy as pigs in a mud pond. Of course their season ticket prices will be adjusted upward as a bonus!

    • unca_chuck said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:51 am

      Rickey Watters lives!!!

  10. Giant Head said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:29 am

    OK, Flappers, time for some thinking outside of the box. Now that the Angels have signed Pujols, Kendrys Morales is obviously expendable. The Angels are putting together a team to make a World Series run immediately and probably now have the best rotation in the AL.

    If I were them and have the hitting and starting pitching, all they need is to strengthen their bullpen. To me, Affeldt would be a nice piece to add. He is under contract for just one year, no long term obligation for the Angels. He can still bring it and would be a very dangerous lefty out of their pen. Morales is arb eligible and with his year plus of being injured, I cannot expect he gets more than $2.5 mill to $3 mill in arb this year and he has one more arb year before free agency. So very little cost and risk for the Giants, but he potentially has the switch-hitting power that is lacking on our roster, especially from the right side. Especially now that Beltran is a non-option. It would also likely keep payroll below $120 million, giving Sabes some flexibility during the year to add a piece as needed.

    So who here would make that deal: Affeldt for Morales? And more of my favorite pastime:

    1 – Pagan – CF – Switch
    2 – Franchez – 2B – Righty
    3 – Panda – 3B – Switch
    4 – Posey – C – Righty
    5 – Kendrys – 1B – Switch
    6 – Melky – LF/RF – Switch
    7 – Huff/Nate – LF for Huff, RF for Nate, Huff gets soem starts at 1B – Lefties
    8 – Crawford – SS – Lefty

    Now if Kendrys is 100%, does that not look like a frickin good lineup? Yes, proving again I am a genius and should be a GM in the major leagues..gay ass smiley face 🙂

    • Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:35 am

      Angels sound off….”NO WAY!”

      • Giant Head said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:39 am

        They have Trumbo as well…not much room for Kendrys I suspect.

  11. Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:33 am

    Sabean’s greatest move perhaps will be creating a graceful exit for Zito. Will Zito even make it through ST? I wonder.

  12. twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:40 am

    The problem is that many of the players around him are deteriorating.Tim Kurkjian, who I consider one of the better anyalsts, semed to think this doesn’t even move them past the Rangers, and I don’t how much Wilson changes that. As the far the ten years, Angels don’t a shit about the latter part of the contract. It’s about getting a couple titles right away- and this may be not be enough. Plus I don’t expect the Rangers to not respond. Of course it fucks any pipe dreams for the bumbling AAA’s.
    As far as our payroll, as I’ve pointed out for years, this ownerships group includes some of wealthiest people from Silicon Valley, some of the wealthiest in the country. Keep in mind that the payroll has increased from 82 Million in 2009 to this year’s projected 130 million. The price of the last 3 years success. But this IS a business and the kind of people who make up our ownwership group are in it to make money. According to Forbes, the Giants are among the the more generous teams in putting revenue into payroll- about 60 percent of revenue goes to player salarires. In short- they are a profitable team running their business fairly and compensationg their players fairly.

    • Giant Head said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:46 am

      With the new wild card, I think the Angels are as competitive as the Rangers and should be in play for at least the extra wild card. Looked like they had $140 mill payroll last year and these two deals looks like will keep them in that $140 mill range. I.e. they are not going to lose money as a team with these two contracts…

  13. Giant Head said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:40 am

    I think if Zits-face pitching in the 5th spot against other weak pitchers, as long as he can keep his ERA to the low 4s, he should be a .500 pitcher….

    • twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 10:17 am

      That’s a sweet thought but it never works out that it’s 5 vs. 5, 4 vs. 4 , etc. If the Zitster really does end up as the 5, our best bet is rain every fifth day, everywhere. That’s a tall order but the Big Guy owes me. All of your prayers can help make it happen..

    • unca_chuck said, on December 8, 2011 at 11:08 am

      Nothing has worked so far. . . . He is what he is.

      And that’s a guy that gives you 1 good outing out of 5 . . .

      Sosa or Surkamp. pick your poison. Zito will have another foot injury soon.

      • St said, on December 8, 2011 at 11:18 am

        Sosa is a Stro.

      • St said, on December 8, 2011 at 11:27 am

        Maybe marriage will help. Don’t want to suck in front of the Missus.

  14. twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 10:06 am

    While it would appear most likely that Pagan is a starter, I don’t believe Bochy is blowing smoke when he says it’s not set. As I said when it was clear they were going after another outfielder (after Melkie), Belt would be the casualty, but they aren’t going to send him down if he has a big spring. There are many scenarios that move the OFers in and out depending the good ole hot hand and match ups. Whatever one thinks of the new LOF, it’s not an imposing enough group to be left alone for 162 games. Bochy *is* going to be giving the LU bashers plenty of fodder..

  15. Bozo said, on December 8, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Now that the Pujols question has been answered, I guess the next big one is who gets Ishi?

    • Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 11:23 am


    • twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 11:33 am

      Actually, the big question is who the fuck are our other oufielders? There exactly zero real MLB oufielders for the 4, 5 spots…

    • twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 12:59 pm

      I know Bozo enough to know he said that in a kindly and humorous way..Ishi was a significant contributer in 2010. I hope he does find a team..

      • Bozo said, on December 8, 2011 at 1:26 pm

        I was and I’m still a big fan of his. In truth I hope he gets picked up and is able to start somewhere. I’m thinking someone has to give that kid a flyer. I think he would be a great fit with the Yanks, when Tex needs a breather and/or a lefty off the bench.

  16. DJLoo said, on December 8, 2011 at 11:22 am

    Lincecum will be a Seattle Mariner some day. I hope there’s a way to get Felix in return. Would you do that straight up today?

  17. snarkk said, on December 8, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    The market is limited for him, but Prince Fielder has to be sending a huge “thank you” note to Pujols for landing this asinine contract…

    • bbl & waves said, on December 8, 2011 at 1:09 pm

      As for Pujols, I think Fox thinks they might lose the Dodgers on the TV deal, why not go with the Angels. The Rangers just inked a 20yr, 30 Billion deal TV deal. That’s a lot of dough.

      • blade3colorado said, on December 8, 2011 at 1:56 pm

        Hey amigo, I think you have one too many zeros on that 30 billion dollar deal . . . It’s 3 billion.

  18. blade3colorado said, on December 8, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    “How the hell can we not think we’re better after what we went through last year?” Sabean said. “Not just from a health standpoint, but from a runs-scored standpoint. The law of averages would tell you we’re going to be better in both areas, but you still have to play the game.”

    I unequivocally agree with Sabean.

  19. twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 2:35 pm

    Brewers To Sign Alex Gonzalez…
    And Harang is off the board..
    Are you gonna be OK, Chuckie?

  20. St said, on December 8, 2011 at 3:46 pm


    Belt, Burriss, Cabrerra, Crawf, Font (or Keppinger), Huff, Pagan, Pill, Posey, Sanchez, Sandoval, Schierholtz and Stewart.

    Bum, Cain, Lincecum, Vogel, ZIto
    Affeldt, Casilla, Lopez, Mota, Romo, TBD, Wilson.

  21. twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    Any site for Thursday night football except the VIP one ( nearly trashed my hard drive) ?

  22. unca_chuck said, on December 8, 2011 at 4:57 pm


    Here’s a couple I found from Phil fan.

    I do not support or vouch for these sites in any way, shape or form. I am merely the messenger.

    • twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 5:18 pm

      I’m sorry, Chuck, but your disclaimer wouldn’t save you. The remote Trojan “Blastimistimo” that I install on all my units would be activated at the first sign of malware activity on my PC. If things go as they generally do, you’d have 90 seconds to evacuate..

  23. unca_chuck said, on December 8, 2011 at 5:36 pm

    Well, my ultrabeaver trojan popper obliterated your worm.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 8, 2011 at 5:42 pm

      Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right… and who is dead.
      Vizzini: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy’s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
      Man in Black: You’ve made your decision then?
      Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
      Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
      Vizzini: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?
      Man in Black: Australia.
      Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder’s origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
      Man in Black: You’re just stalling now.
      Vizzini: You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you? You’ve beaten my giant, which means you’re exceptionally strong, so you could’ve put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you’ve also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
      Man in Black: You’re trying to trick me into giving away something. It won’t work.
      Man in Black: Then make your choice.
      Vizzini: I will, and I choose – What in the world can that be?
      Man in Black: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
      Man in Black: What? Where? I don’t see anything.
      Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter. First, let’s drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
      Man in Black, Vizzini: [Vizzini and the Man in Black drink]
      Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
      Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That’s what’s so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders – The most famous of which is “never get involved in a land war in Asia” – but only slightly less well-known is this: “Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line”! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…

  24. twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    Drat, NEWMAN!

  25. paulinasia said, on December 8, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    Agree with Michael’s question about who are the 4th and 5th outfielders… With Nate apparently being given lip-service at the starter in right (I’ll believe that when I see it) and Torres gone and Ross apparently not coming back… I expected them to get another outfielder but also figured Ross and Torres could be 4th and 5th. Now? I’m prepared to be underwhelmed by any new pick-ups for those spots. Unless they’re thinking the first-base to outfield shuttle of Huff, Belt, and Pill are going to do it….

  26. twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 6:44 pm

    The kid OFers on the roster are Peguero, Kieschnick, Tyler Graham, and Christian ( not really a kid ). I’ve heard Graham talked up lately- he stole 60 bases at Fresno. He’s 27 and said to be a good defender. Hitting, he’s a strictly a singles hitter. Considering their needs, he probably has a good shot. The most power would be Kieschnick, he’s been slowed by injuries. Could be a spot for Piill.

  27. Bozo said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    Well, since we’re still paying Rowand couldn’t we… Hey stop it… What do you mean I chose wrong (said to the man in black and orange). Argh!

  28. DJLoo said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:15 pm

    I don’t think they’re good enough, yet. One sore arm from 70-92. Gaping hole at SS, not much power to speak of, and a general lack of depth.

    • Nipper said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:33 pm

      How terminal is the patient, Doctor?

  29. twinfan1 said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:18 pm

    If they make no more moves, just just reverse Loo’s prediction.

  30. unca_chuck said, on December 8, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, his smile frozen on his face and falls to the ground dead]
    Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
    Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

  31. EdGdsnInExile said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:30 pm

    I saw Phils just signed Laynce Nix. I’m no real fan but he had a nice half year in DC before the Nats picked up Gomes. My point is we lacked a veteran bat off the bench last year, particularly someone who could plant one in the seats. I don’t care if they strike out a good bit; our other guys do that as well. Just someone who can have a solid AB and pop one.

    I didn’t vote on the trade because I’m not really up or down on it. I am happy for Torres, because I think the organization had decided against him. I just feel the current lineup remains full of a lot of ‘ifs’–if Franchez and Posey are healthy, if Huff has a decent year, if…–and I don’t like to depend on a lot of ifs. Twin’s posting of Bill James’ predictions seems to indicate we will score more runs, but I will hang on the hope of intangibles like Belt stepping up, Pill showing evaluators wrong, and so on.

  32. paulinasia said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:35 pm

    I hear you about all the “if’s”, Ed. It’s sometimes not comfortable going into the season with a lot of if’s. But, I seem to remember thinking there were a bunch of if’s going into 2010, things worked out. And, not many if’s going into 2011, and things didn’t work out. So… we shall see how it goes.. Sabean isn’t done yet, I’m sure.

  33. paulinasia said, on December 8, 2011 at 8:40 pm

    Well… not *sure*…. never really sure….

  34. snarkk said, on December 8, 2011 at 9:26 pm

    Come on now. This Giants team was 4 or 5 games short of winning the damn division in 2011. If Posey and Franchez come back near regular form, that should make up the diff in terms of run production to win back that 4 or 5 games. Assume that the pitching will be similar, add in the two new OFers that have decent to pretty decent offensive run scoring chops, and maybe you’re 6-7 games better, assuming similar pitching efficacy. It SHOULD be enough to get to around 93-94 wins, and a division title. Enough for a run deep into the playoffs? Maybe the usual June mid-course correction is needed for that….

  35. paulinasia said, on December 8, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    Whoa… Snarkk, being optimistic? 🙂

  36. EdGdsnInExile said, on December 9, 2011 at 9:14 am

    Paul, your point on context is well-taken, and I’ll raise you one: every team has ‘if’s. In 2010, we were essentially injury-less and had break-out seasons from people (but also a sub-par one from Pablo). I should have been clear, as well, for Snarkk–I absolutely expect a winning record, expect us to compete if not win the division. Just not sure this lineup is anything to celebrate-count me hopeful if not optimistic. But that’s me–in 2010, the skeptical Candlestick fog couldn’t leave my head until the moment Wilson finished off Howard!

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