A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Flap is Back

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on December 30, 2011

Ok, we are back on track, back in the saddle, back in black, whatever you want to call it. I’ve been patiently waiting for some big Giants news to come out and it finally happened: Boof Bonser has signed a minor league deal with the team! This coming on the heels of the El Presidente re-sign deal and we have now REALLY got it rollin’ here in December……

One of old friends, *Chi Power* emerged from his self imposed exile and it was great to see him posting again. He brought up a topic that isn’t new here (signing Lincecum) but noted the rumor of the Giants having offered Timmy an extension of 4yrs/80 mil last Summer. Apparently Tim’s reps shot that down and we’ve already heard about his desire to secure an 8 year deal. Good luck with that…….

It’s assumed that Timmy will go to arbitration this year but he could still work something out with Giants management. Maybe another 2 year deal. Personally, I think that a 4 yr/80 million dollar offer makes sense for both sides. For the player it offers lifetime security in case of injury. It would offer a type of security for the team, too. For starters, it locks up your ace-hole for the next 4 baseball seasons. That’s huge and 20 million a year is just what those guys make a year. Minimum. I wouldn’t be worried about a *Zito Regression* by giving him a deal like that. In fact, he would only be 30 at the start of the season in the final year of that deal. And you can’t worry about a player getting injured when they’re still pitching in their 20’s. Plus, 4 years isn’t really a *long term deal* like the one Zito signed. It’s long and probably feels longer because Sabean doesn’t seem to do more than a 2-year deal these days. But it’s not some *lifetime deal*. And the fact is, if Sabean keeps insisting on building a team around his pitching, he’s going to need all the stud pitchers he can get. After trading away Wheeler, as we know, there isn’t much left in the pitching prospect tank.

That should worry Sabean big time and he’s going to need Timmy locking down the peak of the pitching staff while he replenishes the minor league system with pitching rich talent through the draft. As a side note, I’ve always felt that the Giants should be drafting HITTERS instead of pitchers because it’s almost impossible to get a good free agent hitter to come here because of our park. If you draft them, and they sign, they HAVE to play for you. Regardless, Sabes isn’t doing it that way and it’s never really bothered me because the flip side is BUYING your pitchers through free agency instead of the draft and I’m just not really down with that. Pitchers have significantly more constant and isolated wear and tear on a very specific area of the body (arm/shoulder) by the time they hit free agency than a hitter who has more of a general wear and tear dispersed throughout their body. To me, it’s more likely that the player who has concentrated and consistent wear and tear on a single body part is more likely to get injured than a player who disperses the wear and tear throughout the body. But as a general philosophy it would seem to reason that if you would have no problem enticing a FA pitcher to sign with you that you build your team by drafting hitters and signing pitchers. Oh, well, got on a tangent there, sorry……

The other main reason I would sign Lincecum to a 4 year deal is because it would allow us to……..wait for it……..trade him. TRADE HIM????? Yes, that’s what I said. Look, the Giants are likely going to stay competitive over the next 4 years. But what if they don’t? Or what if Sabean DOESN’T re-stock the minor league pitching system? If we are 10 games out of it in July of 2014 wouldn’t it be nice to know that Sabes could trade Timmy for 4 or 5 stud blue chippers. And if he’s still got another year on his deal it would make him look much more attractive to a trade partner. It would be very difficult to trade him for a plentiful bounty if he’s only going to be a rental for the receiving team. And that’s what he’s going to be if we just go year to year with him before he reaches free agency……

The bottom line is, almost every elite team has an ace making 20+  million a year. We got burned on the Zito deal but a lot of teams get burned with big free agent signings. The key is to not put ourselves in a position like that again. And you’re just not risking that if you sign a 27 year old player to a 4 year deal. We’re likely always going to be paying a pitcher who makes 20+ million a season. If we aren’t, we likely aren’t competitive anymore. I would much rather pay that type of scratch to a player who I know and love than some free agent dude who’s given his best years to the back of his baseball card…… Now, if Sabean gives Timmy a full no trade clause in a 4 year deal I’ll be pissed. But if we get a pitcher in the prime of his career who I can trade for many prospects if I decide to at some point during the deal (excluding the final year)? Sign me up……. ______________________________________________________________________________

Retro Game of the Day It’s been about a week since we did a RGOTD and I’ve lost my interest in 1982. Let’s move on to 1983–another below average year, we finished in 5th place with 79 wins. But today it’s Opening Day and there’s no other day of the year that brims with more positivity and confidence. Kruk and Kuip joined the team in ’83. Krukow pitched the opener and did not look like an ace. He didn’t make it out of the 2nd inning. We lost this barn burner 16-13…….

35 Responses

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  1. Giant Head said, on December 30, 2011 at 10:05 am

    If the story is accurate that the giants offered him a 4 year deal for $80 mill and it was rejected in hopes of a bigger deal, then I think we have to throw out the 4 year deal you as a possibility.

    I have always been fearful that timmy will want to just play out his option years and then head home. So I am encouraged with with the possibility that he wants to stay 8 years. I also would not go that long. But 6 years seems like a very good compromise with a limited no trade exemption.

    To me $120 mill seems like a good deal (two years at $17.5, two at $20 and two at $22.5), but who know what his reps think they can get.

    Key is getting Cain wrapped up first. I was hoping a 5 year extension after this year for $90 mill would be doable and would keep Matt and Tim under contract for the same duration through the 2017 season. Matty with $16, $17, $18, $19 and $20 mill over the 5 year extension…

  2. twinfan1 said, on December 30, 2011 at 10:15 am

    Timmy may not be the ace by the time his six years are up, he could be the 3. Take care of Matt first, go one year at a time for Tim’s last two years, and see what happens…

    • blade3colorado said, on December 30, 2011 at 10:41 am

      Agree Twin . . . I see everyone’s point in wanting to lock him up for 4 years, but if Tim himself wants to go year by year or two years at most, I’m down with that. By that time, Zito is off the books and the Giants may want to go in a different direction.

      It seems like everyone thinks that pitchers last forever. Pure lunacy. The average career of a Major League Baseball player is 5.6 years, according to a 2007 study by a University of Colorado at Boulder research team. The study also revealed that one in five position players will have only a single-year career, and that at every point of a player’s career, the player’s chance of ending his career is at least 11 percent.

      So, you’re wondering what about pitchers? 4.8 years . . . That’s it boys and girls. Pfffft! We got the best of Timmy and everything we get from him here on out, is pure gravy.

      • ChiPower said, on December 30, 2011 at 10:56 am

        Blade – re: the “What we get from him here on out, is pure grave” doesn’t necessarily mean that a 4/80 deal might not be a good play for the team. I still believe this would be better than going year-to-year with arb.

      • blade3colorado said, on December 30, 2011 at 11:53 am

        Chi, if it happens, I wont do cartwheels, but only hope for the best . . . My concern is that we don’t get hamstrung with too many long term contracts, that turn out to be dead money, e.g., Hampton, Neagle, Zito, Pavano, Brown, et. al.

        Giants payroll is at $130 million, a $12 million increase from 2011. Per the Giants, they are adamant this is the new bar for the next few years, i.e., no more increases. This means that potentially, any long term contract becomes dead money should the player not perform within that $130 million figure.

      • TedSpe said, on December 30, 2011 at 12:13 pm

        Chi, “pure grave”. Typo? – or ominous prediction?
        (gay ass winky face)

      • blade3colorado said, on December 30, 2011 at 12:29 pm

        Don’t say that Chi . . . I’m already spooked 😉

  3. ChiPower said, on December 30, 2011 at 10:53 am

    I agree Head and Twin…get Cainer locked-down first. But I do think a four year deal is optimum. Management has not been shy about letting it be known they want to lock-up both. And there is obviously some exceptions to the current philosophy of two years and an option, etc., with the 4/80 option.

    Flav – I think you make excellent points about Timmy re: a potential trade down the road. I know it makes those of us who bleed Orange and Black cringe to think about trading Timmy, but the reality of the situation is that it just might make the most sense at some point in the future.

    Since I have been out for a while, not sure, but assume you kicked the tires on the Angle Villalona thing. I bring it up, as Flav suggest that the Giants haven’t drafted hitters of late, but if you look back, Villalona was drafted for his potential pop. Also, the Giants have drafted guys recently for their D, and also being decent at the plate (Gary Brown, Joe Panik, etc.). And while Brown and Panik aren’t know principally for their pop, the are good contact guys who can put it in the gap (and that plays well in our yard).

  4. ewisco said, on December 30, 2011 at 11:03 am

    Something we would need to know about the 4/80 not being tim’s cup of tea is whether it’s the four or the 80. I could see going 4/90 or maybe higher. Not sure about 6 but i would take a looong look at 5.

  5. Bozo said, on December 30, 2011 at 2:33 pm

    The thing I’ve been kind of worried about and I guess it ties into Timmy’s contract, is the San Jose rights. If MLB decides to give the rights to the As and the current owners end up getting a huge chunk of change, the management team may decide they don’t have to be competitive right now. With Mr. Neukom out of the picture I could see the Giants pulling a White Sox wave the white flag sale if they’re a few games out in July. With Tim having one more year of arbitration his trading value would be very high. The current management would have their out saying things like – We spent $130 mil and that wasn’t enough and now with the As in SJ we need to look at a lower payroll or some shit.
    Probably just me being paranoid, but the whole shady deal with Mr. Neukom and now Magowan putting in his two cents about SJ has me a bit concerned about the whole deal.

    • Del Mar Dennis said, on December 30, 2011 at 8:12 pm

      I just can’t bother myself with player contracts. I worry enough about our Giants as it is. I can’t begin to start adding dollars and cents into the equation. But I do have the formula to one equation:

      Fuck + You = Bozo!

      Happy New Year.

      • Nipper said, on December 30, 2011 at 8:21 pm

        Stay thirsty!

      • Del Mar Dennis said, on December 30, 2011 at 9:18 pm

        That Dk. b or b. 3yo colt outperformed his more highly-touted stablemate just like I said he would. Thirsty’s wins in the Jim Dandy and Travers Stakes towers over what that (now retired) Uncle Mo did as a 3 yo.

        You know what one word sums up that horsey? Oink!

  6. Alleykat said, on December 30, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    Damm i want Cain,Timmy,and Bum locked in for 5yrs.Like what the Braves did with their Big 3…Maddux,Smoltz and Glavine.Always winning their divison with Stud pitching.

  7. Stammer said, on December 30, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    How the hell do you replace a Lincecum? With FA? HA! You’ll pay up anyway and the guy won’t be nearly as good. Or as much fun to watch. Trade for prospects? Good luck.Maybe in 3 yrs they will be ready but the rest of the cast will be seeking greener pastures.

  8. PawlieKokonuts said, on December 30, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    Don Mueller, dead at 84.

  9. DJLoo said, on December 31, 2011 at 8:57 am

    Flav: Regarding the RGOTD, I am shocked that you lost interest in the ’82 Giants by June 8th. That season was really one to stay with right down to the last game…

  10. twinfan1 said, on December 31, 2011 at 9:58 am

    Give or take, the average age of a first time MLB free agent is about 30. The team has already gotten the bulk of best years of the player’s baseball life. 4 years makes some sense for the Giants but Timmy’s team knows the deal- most likely he’ll be ineffective or injured for the last 3-4 years of an 8 year deal so they want the money now.

  11. stixwiz said, on December 31, 2011 at 10:57 am

    Flav: Good posting. You got us back on track. Still some untidy corners in the free agency free for all, though most of the news is unlikely to involve the Giants. Pawlie: Sad to hear about Don Mueller. In the Championship year of ’54, Mays beat out Mueller for the batting title on the last day of the season, i believe it was. Since then, the prospects of Giants finishing 1-2 in the batting race have been less than slim.

    How bout a left-handed screwball on Timmy’s contract status? Three years at $70M. That’s something better than $23/. Value for value deal. No long-term shit, but right at the high end of the market. Thing is, such an offer would lock him up through the remainder of his 20’s. With Timmy’s slender sylph of a bodystyle, the chances of him going down to serious injury could escalate exponentially as he slides into his 30’s. No problem whatsoforever with locking down The Horse on a five year. Fuck the Evil Empire and their dire plans. I could easily see the team offering five to Bumgarner, with a team option extension for another two.

    • unca chuck said, on December 31, 2011 at 12:44 pm

      Wasn’t Mueller Merlin the Magnificent or something like that?

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 31, 2011 at 4:18 pm

        Thanks for being the only feckwad to notice, Chuck. Yes, Don Mueller was known as Mandrake the Magician (the name of a comic strip) for his ability to spray hits, a key one of which was to set the table for Bobby Thomson’s 1951 home run. Shortly before the homer, Mueller tore his ankle sliding into third on a Whitey Lockman double, and Clint Hartung (whose advance reputation had him in the Hall of Fame before he ever played in an MLB game) ran for him. In 1954 Mueller led the league in hits. You could argue that his absence cost the Giants the 1951 WS, but the team was spent and exhausted. Rob Neyer of Baseball Nation adds:

        “Earlier that season, Mueller — generally a singles hitter by trade — had walloped five home runs in two days, tying a major-league record. He bounced back from the ankle injury in 1952, but enjoyed his best season in ’54, batting .342 and leading the National League with 212 hits. He’d missed the ’51 World Series, but in ’54 he rapped seven singles in the Giants’ four-game sweep of the Cleveland Indians.

        Oh. The strikeouts. Can’t write about Don Mueller without mentioning the strikeouts.

        He never struck out. Or for that matter, walked. For every 162 games, Mueller struck out 19 times and drew 22 walks. Among the 827 players with at least 4,000 plate appearances since World War II, Mueller’s his walk rate is the seventh lowest.

        Oh, but that’s nothing. His strikeout rate is the third lowest.

        The guys with lower walk rates have higher strikeout rates. The guys with lower strikeout rates have higher walk rates. The truth is that Don Mueller wasn’t a particularly productive hitter. But there wasn’t anybody else quite like him.”

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 31, 2011 at 5:10 pm

      My error, Stix, in saying that Chuck was the only feckwad to notice Mueller’s death. Nice tidbit from you on ’54! Thanks.

  12. St said, on December 31, 2011 at 11:22 am

    An awful lot of 6’5 230 guys have flamed out with elbow problems. Cain is said to have something floating around in his and the reason the G’s didn’t go 4 yrs the last time. Might be a problem, might not.

  13. twinfan1 said, on December 31, 2011 at 11:35 am

    Bumgarner is already theirs for 5 more years. he’s not a FA until 2017..and if Tim’s team isn’t going for 4 years, they’re not going for three.

  14. PawlieKokonuts said, on December 31, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    Early wishes for a happy, hearty, and healthy 2012, Flappers.

  15. Nipper said, on December 31, 2011 at 5:17 pm


  16. Bozo said, on December 31, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    I just wanted to say Happy New Year to those using the Julian calendar. For the rest of us flappers that go by the MLB calendar, I’ll save the happy-do-dah-day until April.
    Cheers All.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on December 31, 2011 at 7:32 pm

      surely you mean Gregorian calendar, Clownman?

      • Bozo said, on December 31, 2011 at 8:10 pm

        You busted me Pawlie. To make matters worse. I almost put Roman calendar. Oh well, I’ll do a Gregorian chant AND still wait until April for my new year.
        Cheers man.

  17. paulinasia said, on December 31, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    Sunday morning, 1/1/12 over here in Saigon: the world is still alive in 2012. Enjoy your new year’s eve, Flappers, as well as the whole year ahead. As always, big party in the city last night, but that will be dwarfed by the “real” new year’s eve for the locals, lunar calendar new year’s a few weeks from now. Also share Bozo’s happy new year in April when winter melts away and the air is full of baseballs and hope. Carry on, gentlemen (and Ferret, wherever you are)….

  18. EdGdsnInExile said, on December 31, 2011 at 10:01 pm

    Happy new year all–it’s almost 1 am here in DC. Paulinasia has most if not all of us beat.

    Doesn’t sound like San Diego gave up much for Carlos Quentin. ESPN report has him getting 6-7 million this year. Would that have broken our bank? Did Sabean kick these tires and find them wanting?

  19. ewisco said, on December 31, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Happy New Year knuckleheads! boys in houston with grandma. mrs wisco and i plan to hit the buena tomorrow early for some new year irish coffee and eggs benzedrine. May the year bring all the best to you and yours. may the road rise to meet your feet. may the wind be always at your back. may the giants win the series again. the niners are in the playoffs again, and that’s the fact jack!

  20. Del Mar Dennis said, on December 31, 2011 at 11:44 pm

    I hope Zumie has Happy New Year. I now one “Zoomie” who ended the 12th and final race in 2011 at Hawthorne in a bang-zoom!

    1 1/16 Miles | 3 Year Olds And Up | CLAIMING ( $5,000 ) | Open

    7 Zoomie Zoomie S. Martinez $100.00 $44.60 $25.00

    Happy New Year Flappers.

    • DJLoo said, on January 1, 2012 at 8:00 am


  21. willieD said, on January 1, 2012 at 8:03 am

    I think Quentin is someone the Pads would flip for prospects come July if the guy proves he can stay healthy and hit consistently. He isn’t much of a defender either.
    As far as contracts for SF, Cain is of more immediate concern. Linc camp has to know SF is not handing out 8 yr deal, and I’d agree with flav that even at 4/80 it would make him more attractive to be dealt off in the latter half of the deal. If you look at higher priced arms that have changed teams, neither the team they left nor the team they joined experienced dramatic turnaround/collapse. Nothing wrong with arb route either.
    Dennis, it’s nice to see Zum with the big payoff, but I think ours is better than a cheap claimer.

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