A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Getting Elected into the Baseball Hall of Fame

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 10, 2012

I think it is too difficult to get elected into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Everyone says it’s about elite statistics and that a player’s career needs to have sustained longevity. But it’s often just about the strength of the class getting voted on. Barry Larkin made it in on his third try. Last year he got 62% of the vote and he was now considered to have shuffled up near enough to the top to get voted in on the 2012 ballot; which he did. This year’s class wasn’t considered that strong so Larkin became *the guy* to vote for. Funny, his stats never changed….

Morris finished with 53% of the vote in 2011. This year he got 66% of the votes. Next year he’ll get voted in. It’s idiotic that Morris should be on his 13th try to get into the HOF. He was one of if not THE most dominant pitcher in the 80’s (well, let’s say ’82–’92). If dominating an entire decade isn’t enough to get in I don’t know what is.

Ron Santo got voted in–after he passed away.

The Hall is just too exclusive of a club. And it’s about to get a lot more exclusive as the 160 (I’m guessing on the number but I think I’m close) writers who vote are going to keep players out based on personal biases. Does anyone think Barry Bonds is going to get voted in? I don’t. And many MANY of those writers aren’t going to vote for him just because they didn’t like him personally when he played the game. Is that what the Hall is about? The “I Liked You Hall of Fame”? The “You Didn’t Snub Me When I Tried To Interview You Hall of Fame”?

It won’t just be the steroid use that keeps Barry out. I predict that most of the steroid guys get in and Bonds DOESN’T just because he hurt some feelings of the voters at various points in his career. And that’s stupid.

So the Hall won’t have the all time hits leader and the all time home run leader. And they also won’t have (or currently don’t have) a ton of players who deserve to be in there but who can’t voted in because the writers feel the need to exclude players just because they haven’t been on the ballot for enough years. So I ask you, what kind of club is this?

Ron Santo gets elected in. After he died. What message does this send to the Santo family? Your dad’s stats were the same and we couldn’t vote him in when he was alive but now that he’s dead, come on down, Ron!

It’s stupid. They’re going to have his son or a family member get up there and be all emotional about how much this would have meant to dad, etc. It’s all just a big show.

So I like to LQTM when people talk about the Hall of Fame being about “elite baseball stats”– it has nothing to do with stats at all….


Retro Game of the Day

It’s Monday, April 30th, 1984 and 28,000 turned out to see Fernando Valenzuela pitch. He did not disappoint, he pitched a 4 hit complete game shut out. Dodgers scratched out a run in the 2nd off Laskey and that was enough, they won 1-0. Gene Richards led off for us. I’ve got no recollection of him player for us. I remember him as a Padre.


66 Responses

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  1. Giant Head said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:55 am

    Awful BCS game, the whole system sucks…Stanford may have been able to beat either Bama or LSU…

    • Big flavor said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:26 am


    • St said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:28 am

      We’ll, LSU scored 40 on Ore to give you some comparison.

    • ChiPower said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:02 am

      LSU scored 40 on Oregon, but couldn’t score shit last night when it mattered. I do think Stanford would have offered a better match-up with either LSU or Alabama.

      Bottom line, the system is totally screwed-up. I see where a “Plus 1” will be discussed (in addition to a multitude of changes). I don’t think a plus 1 (top four teams play off) is enough, but it would be a start.

      Great points on the HOF, Flav. I do think Bonds gets in, eventually. If not, there is no way in hell that many other deserving players who played in the “roid era” get in.

      • St said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:16 am

        LSU also avg’d 35 pts a game playing 8 top 20 teams yet could only manage 9 pts against Alabama in 2 games.

        Hey, I’m a big Stanford supporter and not a fan of SEC teams. But, I really believe either of these two teams last night would have dominated the Cardinal defensively.

  2. willieD said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:51 am

    What’s f-ed up is, they could have already have had a 16 team playoff just like 1-AA (or whatever they call it now) and have been done with it, instead of having a team sit around all this time. I’m not getting into dissing any other conference, but I think Furd, Oregon and SC could give anyone of top 16 a game.
    Man, second retro game I’ve seen Joel Youngblood at 3b…I watched him throw a lot of DP balls into RF. Poor guy could play a lot of different spots including OF, but 3b was tough to watch.

  3. willieD said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:57 am

    Which is another reason I’m still pissed off at Shaw and his BS excuses for going for the FG. You’re in a BCS game with the 4th best team in the entire f-ing country, not Wazzu in Pullman in October, in Luck’s last game ever for the Furd. There’s nothing to worry about–let him move the ball at least closer.
    Oregon is a factory, and SC is going to be very good with Barkley coming back. Besides Luck (who can’t be replaced) Furd loses stud O line guy and at least one TE, and maybe Skov too. Shaw will have a very difficult time getting back to where he was.

    • St said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:24 am

      WD, what have you read about Skov not coming back?

  4. St said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:33 am

    Neyer’s take on the latest HOF nonsense


    • snarkk said, on January 10, 2012 at 12:10 pm

      Neyer makes a strong case for Morris not being a HOFer. I’m not much of an AL guy, so with that caveat, I’ll agree with Neyer. On my “know it when I see it” simple smell test for HOFers, I don’t think Morris passes it. He doesn’t move the needle…

  5. ChiPower said, on January 10, 2012 at 9:36 am

    Good article on Posey’s continued rehab…sounds like he is making very good progress.

    Also noted in the article (first specifics I have seen on it)…Giants pitchers and catcher report February 18. That’s 39 days away! Woo Hoo! Let’s Play Ball!


  6. TedSpe said, on January 10, 2012 at 10:42 am

    If Lefty O’Doul can’t get in the Hall of Fame–*NO ONE* should get in the Hall of Fame

  7. unca_chuck said, on January 10, 2012 at 11:35 am

    No kidding. The Santo thing was a disgrace. It’s like the voters were WAITING for him to pass before letting him in. I think that’s the only way Pete Rose gets in as well . . .

  8. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2012 at 11:53 am

    I stopped caring long ago as to who gets in and who doesn’t. They should scrap the whole thing and put in everybody who ever played the game. Then we can argue over whether Rowand deserved it..

  9. blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    A number of events have made me wonder what the fuck they are doing to this game I love. Regarding the Hall of Fame, yes, I understand that this is a separate entity from Major League Baseball, but there should be a “mutual synergy” between Cooperstown and MLB. Quite frankly, MLB is most at fault . . . Let me count the ways:

    1. I was a bit upset when they lowered the pitcher’s mound. Not a big thing at the time, but later, it was monumental in how it affected the game.

    2. Then they had divisions, i.e., I love tradition and part of the attraction of baseball was the fact that they were really big on tradition compared to other sports.

    3. I really did a slow burn when the “car salesman” became Commissioner. WTF? Oh yeah, and we’ll let him own a team for awhile too (until he was finally divested of that . . . sort of anyway). In short, Fay Vincent got the shaft by this mealy mouthed imbecile and his merry band of owners.

    3. Then came the fucking wild cards. Thank you Bud. Just a play for more money in my opinion. It really watered down any benefit winning the division had before, much less a pennant “back in the good old days.”

    4. Then “fast Buddy” represented MLB during the 1994 players strike and cancelled the World Series, marking the first time the annual event had not been staged since 1904. Dipshit.

    5. In 2002, the car salesman gave us inter-league play. Who cares about the efficacy and preservation of hallowed statistics maintained for over a hundred years? Not Bud. Pffffft!

    6. That same year, at the All Star game, Bud obviously had a whore waiting in his hotel room, so he canceled the game in the 11th inning.

    7. Selig has been widely criticized for not taking an active enough role to stem the tide of steroid use in baseball until it had blossomed into a debilitating problem for the industry. Some in the media call him the Steroid Commissioner. Ha.

    Hall of Fame? No, I stopped caring too. The only thing that matters now are the games and the Giants. Despite MLB and the Budster trying to destroy the game, the game survives. For that, I’m grateful . . .

    • TedSpe said, on January 10, 2012 at 12:59 pm

      As to your second number 3, personally I like the wild card. In fact, it was enacted partially due to the Giants 1993 season where they won 103 games and didn’t get in the playoffs by one game

    • TedSpe said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:04 pm

      Also, though it doesn’t matter in places like the Bay Area, Southern California or New York, I think inter-league is a good idea for the fans in the areas who didn’t have access to see the super stars from the other league live

    • TedSpe said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:05 pm

      But those are my only two quibble with ya πŸ˜‰

  10. snarkk said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Blade, I’ll disagree with you on the Budster and the the Wild Card. That was his most critical, and best contribution. The last day of last season showed how exciting the Wild Card has made late season play to a lot more teams. Before, late season play meant just about all teams were out of contention, and teams out of it meant lackluster play and dead ballparks all over MLB. Now, if they add another set of Wildcards for 2013 for a one day playoff, I think that is just too much, that is only for money and make sure the Yanks and RSox always get in. I think the format now is perfect and should be left alone….

    • blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:14 pm

      I thought you were going to point out my “double” number 3 πŸ˜‰

      Yeah, I am probably in the minority with regard to the Wild Card and Division play. I think in the back of my mind, I wanted “revenge” on the entire National League after all those 2nd place finishes in the 1960s.

      • blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:36 pm

        By the by, less perturbed with the Wild Card and Divisions, then I am with the “mixing” of the leagues and lowering the mound (and something I forgot, the DH . . . I hate the DH).

      • Bozo said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:46 pm

        I’m with you all the way on those Blade .Can’t stand the DH, can’t stand inter-league play.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:37 pm

      As PK’s book will excitingly convey: 9/28/11 — we will never see the likes of it again.

  11. ewisco said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    hue jackson is off the reservation.

  12. gianthead said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    Whether Bonds gets into the Hall of Fame I think will rest on thaty idiot ARod. I think he will get past Bonds on the home run record and I think the steroid era will be fading into memory and for whatever bias, ARod does not seem to get the scrutiny Bonds and others have for juicing.

    So my hunch is that ARod will retire and get in the HOF and that will open the the gates for Bonds, Clemens, McGuire…

  13. gianthead said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Phillies Release John Bowker
    By Tim Dierkes [January 10 at 2:37pm CST]
    The Phillies released outfielder John Bowker to allow him to pursue an opportunity in Japan, according to a press release. The team’s 40-man roster count now stands at 39.

    Bowker, 28, was acquired by the Phillies from the Pirates in August. The former third-round pick hit .306/.348/.482 in 451 Triple-A plate appearances last year, his fourth extended stint at the level.

    The guy was a AAA HOF, but that little bat was never going to stick in the majors…

  14. Alleykat said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    It was brutal as a kid in the the middle 60s watching my beloved Giants,with all the STAR players,Mays,McCovey,Marichal,Cepeda,Perry finishing 2nd 4 years in a row under Herman Franks.Damm Freakin Dodgers.Shit Franks even won 95 in 65, 92 the next year,90 in 67,and 88 in 68 yet. couldn.t get it done.Very.frustrating with that LU.

    • blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:47 pm

      Exactly Kat . . . I learned to dislike just about everything LA from that experience.

  15. Bozo said, on January 10, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    The history of the hall voting has been bullshit from the get go. You know Joe DiMaggio didn’t make it until his 4th ballot, Cy Young 2nd ballot Mays and Williams were 1st ballot guys but 12 writers didn’t vote for Mays and 20 didn’t vote for Ted. Yet, Jay Bell got 2 votes on his first ballot. That’s just plain fucked up.
    I think Bonds will get in but it may take some time.

  16. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    I remember when Bowker came back up in 2009- there was reason for the excitememt we felt. Even in the minors he had been undisplined hitter- he completely turned that around- walking 74 times and posting a .450 OBP. There was reason to believe he was a changed hitter. Then he stepped off the plane, up to the plate, and first pitch flailed at a back foot slider in the dirt.. in retrospect they could have just ended it right there…

  17. ewisco said, on January 10, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    2 years ago the g’s were awful, as a team, at swinging at the back foot slider. It may be that all teams are but seeing the giants so often made it seem like a team thing. it seemed that there was improvement last year at laying off.

  18. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    It’s early in the count that the pitch gets set up. Bowker and others were missing or not offering at hittable fastballs , then they get down and we know what’s next. Nobody can hit that pictch- both Nate and Travis made big improvement in 2010, simply because they were more aggressive before they got to counts where they’d definitely see that pictch..

  19. DJLoo said, on January 10, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    Inter-league play started in 1997 not 2002. The Giants played the first inter-league ever game vs. Texas and the still active Darren Oliver. That is my contribution for today…

    • blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2012 at 3:48 pm

      I bet you get up before the roosters too. My bad . . . I should have said – As of the 2002 season, a new format to Interleague Play was instituted where teams play Interleague games against various divisions.

  20. unca_chuck said, on January 10, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Well, I was at the Detroit game a couple years ago when Bowker hit a 3 run home in the bottom of the 7th to break a tie and win the game 8-5 IIRC. Cool moment.

    Yeah, if they make interleague all season long, it’ll suck ass. The added playoff game? ZZZZZZzzzzz… That scenario would have nulled out the exciting finish of last year.

  21. zumie said, on January 10, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    I was at Bowkers’ first game in the bigs. He hit a homerun against St. Louis that day, and had a few homeruns that week before the league figured him out. But they figured him out.

  22. zumie said, on January 10, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    As for the Giants of the ’60s, the team had its flaws. And like a lot of teams during the ’60s, they had racial tension in the clubhouse. Unfortunately, they had a manager for a while (Alvin Dark) who contributed greatly to the racial tension.

    • TedSpe said, on January 10, 2012 at 5:45 pm

      Alvin Dark just had his 90th birthday on Sunday

      • zumie said, on January 10, 2012 at 5:53 pm

        The Giants organization seems to have distanced itself from him, or maybe that’s just my perception.

  23. zumie said, on January 10, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    A classic Alvin Dark story is told in Bouton’s “Ball Four.” When Bouton was a kid, he was at a Giants game, and was begging Alvin Dark for an autograph.
    “Can I please have an autograph. I’m a Giants fan. A GIANTS fan!”
    And, according to Bouton, Dark said “Take a hike, son.”
    After the book came out, Dark was quoted as lamely saying: “I never knew Bouton when he was a kid.”

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:47 pm

      With lines like that, it’s a wonder Dark did not become a politician with a national following.

  24. snarkk said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    Happy Birthday to my favorite Giant of all time, Willie McCovey. 74 today.
    Gibson once said Stretch was the scariest hitter in baseball. From Gibson, I’d say that’s almost as good a compliment as being elected a HOFer. Almost.
    Happy Birthday, Stretch!!!…

  25. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    What is Willie’s affliction? I’ve never heard what he suffers from.
    Happy Birthday!

  26. snarkk said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    I don’t know what Stretch has, but it’s resulted in many knee operations and a really rough 12+ hour spine surgery last year. Since I’ve never read or heard what it is, I imagine he wants to keep it private, and the Giants and media honor that. I won’t speculate, I just hope his treatment helps whatever it is. I respect the hell out of him even more as a man than as the great player I admired as a youth — and will always wish the best for him. To me, and I’m obviously not alone of a certain generation, he is the greatest Giant of them all…

  27. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Happy Birthday, Stretch. Met him in Pittsburgh, on the field, by the dugout. 1978. Cool as a cucumber. Him, not me.

    • snarkk said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:42 pm

      Stargell and Stretch.
      A pair of real giants of the game…

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:45 pm

        indeed…sidenote: Vida Blue loved Chuck Tanner, embraced him on the field when I was there; Vida was very cool, too

  28. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Reading Jim Kaplan’s book about Spahn-Marichal. although some great tidbits, it lumbers at times. More a dula biography than about the game in 1963, so far. Anyway, he is pretty rough on Dark. But as Cepeda points out in the Chron piece, times change, people learn, many forgive. (Wish you could say those last six words about marriage.)

  29. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    sheeesh: cap A for Although, and “dual,” not “dula.”

  30. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    GOOD NEWS: a very reputable agent has agreed to represent me on my book project; first big hurdle cleared.

  31. Flavor said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    anyone see the vid compilation that showed Musburger using the “Honey Badger” reference 14 times last night? What a fucking weirdo. It reminded me of an old person who repeats a phrase he heard from a young person but he’s not actually sure of the correct meaning of the phrase….

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:13 pm

      Actually, in my younger daughter’s eyes that last sentence describes ME.

  32. Flavor said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    Pawlie–congrats again. Keep pluggin’ away.

    Here is the link to Musburger’s weird Honey Badger obsession


  33. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Brent and Phylis George made their debuts with CBS as my Dad was being forced out. It really was signifiant for TV as CBS had been the last hold out from treating the NFL as a circus, not a game. At least CBS saw Brent’s imcompetence in the booth and soon moved him into the studio..

    • Flavor said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:06 pm

      he’s got a look on his face like the Honey Badger just walked into the room. Naked.

    • blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:26 pm

      What’s that thing around his neck? Colored puka shells?

    • Nipper said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:27 pm

      Yeah I remember him with that toothy grin doing the NBA studio show with Jimmy the Greek and Phyllis. What a team!

  34. paulinasia said, on January 10, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Mussbooger, Phyllis, the Greek… ugh. The only word that I can think of to describe having to watch them was “smarmy”. Can’t believe ‘Booger still has a job, absolutely horrible. I saw him once at Denver airport during playoffs, he was a tiny little fuck, the kind who was likely always getting beaten up on the playground. Man, he got his revenge…

    As for Willie Mac, truly a giant and a Giant in baseball. He alone is my first memory of watching baseball, ’62 world series, on NY TV. I remember thinking “man, I wouldn’t want to pitch to that guy”…

  35. zumie said, on January 10, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    NFL network is playing “The Catch” game tonight. Cool.
    30th year (!) anniversary.
    How ironic that the game was called by Vin Scully!
    At least, not Mussberger, thank goodness. (grin)

    • zumie said, on January 10, 2012 at 10:39 pm

      When’s the next time we’ll see a 6’7″ white wide receiver in the NFL?
      Or a barefoot punter?
      Or the winning team in the NFC championship game committing 6 turnovers?!

  36. unca_chuck said, on January 11, 2012 at 8:49 am

    Yeah. I watched it. Shit, was that Steve Mike-Mayer? I didn’t catch the name of the punter. The niners turned the ball over so much, they only punted once (IIRC). Bill Ring! The pride of Carlmont HS . . .

  37. unca_chuck said, on January 11, 2012 at 8:51 am

    The one thing I loved was after the int on the Dallas 5 yard line on the tip by Elliott, they show Walsh. Read his lips and he’s saying to montana “It’s alright. It’s alright. No problem.”

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