A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Tim Lincecum: Let Someone Else Pay for the Back of His Baseball Card

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 25, 2012

I’m completely fine with Timmy and the Giants agreeing to a 2 year deal. It doesn’t mean much to us since we get him for the next 2 years either way. But there is some resolution to the question of whether he was planning on being a Giant once his free agent years begin: He’s not (regardless of the bs his agent says now).

If he wanted to be, he would have signed the 5 year/100 million deal that the Giants extended to him. By turning that down he’s going to maximize the gynormous deal that he can get in 2014. Someone is going to give him a “Fielder Deal”–I call that “The Fat and Stupid” deal. It will not be us. The Giants don’t roll that way. I’ve come to realize that owners of big market teams simply don’t care about the length or size of the deals they are handing out to these super stars. They KNOW the back end of all these deals won’t be worth it. They don’t care. The revenue they have coming in more than makes up for it. It’s funny, Sabean’s 7 year/126 million dollar volcanic mistake to Zito now looks like nothing.

Sierra Nevada came back to The Flap last night and dropped a nugget that I wasn’t aware of: Tim doesn’t ice his arm after starts. I did some light googling on that claim and it appears to be true. Tim’s dad says “ice is for injuries.” Tim has gotten bad advice from his dad on this and it blows my mind that the team would supports such nonsense.

I would never have been supportive of a l0ng term deal for Lincecum BEFORE I heard about the no-ice thing but that sealed the deal for me. It would be lunacy to be responsible for paying him well into his 30’s. We got the best years of that arm. I’ll use the goodbye we used for Benjie: “Thanks for the mammaries, Timmy”. Maybe after 4 or 5 more years of his In and Out diet that goodbye might be appropriate…….

I’ll end with the best part of all of this: If we are 8-10 games out of it in late July of 2013 does Sabean pull the trigger and trade Tim for a “Wheeler or two?” I doubt you’d get 2 Wheeler’s since he’d be a 2 month rental. But it would make sense if the team is just spinning it’s wheels at that time. He has a limited no-trade clause but I’d be surprised if he would mind getting traded to a team with a big shot to win the WS that year. Why not try to pick up another ring before his “Fat and Stupid” contract comes up? Would Sabean have the balls to trade him? If we’re in that situation, I hope he does……..

113 Responses

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  1. dirtnrocksnreno said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:14 am

    It’s good to see it resolved and the dollars are fair.

    Interesting point about the owner perspective on these contracts. Maybe that is the benefit of a single owner. I don’t know the demographics but I think we’re safe saying that Detroit as a city is generally in the shitter. You can buy a house there for something like 15k and even with GM on the upswing jobs are hard to come by. But what do you know they’ve found close to 1/4B for Fielder. It’s hard for me to believe there isn’t more revenue in SF from sponsorship and turnstiles. TV and revenue sharing must be more than we think. Or maybe it’s the post season money.

    • Giant Head said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:43 am

      I tried to roughly count payroil after the Tim contract and I basically got to $130 million. So congrats to sabean for at least getting ownership to stick to $130 million. It will be hard for ownership to scale below $130 mill in the future if attendance stays healthy.

      2013 payroll will have just $42 mill committed to Zito and Tim and if we can get Cain at $16 and I think Voggy comes in around $4.5, that has payroll at $62.5 and then Panda around $4 as well. So $66.5 committed without any other long-term deals. Then they will have to decide on Brian Wilson on a longer-term deal.

      If Timmy leaves, then in 2014, we have what potentially just Cain at $17ish and Panda at $5 mill and a last $7 mill for Zit-head. So potentially they will have only $30 mill committed, leaving at least $100 mill to build another championship caliber team post-Timmy. A very bright future indeed. Even if the A’s are in San Jose by 2015…

  2. Giant Head said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:20 am

    Flav, I have to disagree with you on this icing issue, in particular in regard to timmy. His father built this machine, he knows what he is doing.

    I think icing is for injuries and most pitchers throwing 100 pitches and the stress on their joints, muscles, etc are basically injuring their bodies.

    But Timmy is unlike any pitcher we have seen. He is not necessarily a pitcher, but a rubberband. As long as all the things in his arm and delivery are tightened properly, the rubberband is going to launch itself.

    The other thing is father preached was throwing all the time in between starts and that is exactly what the Braves did in their 90s heyday. Maddux, Shmoltz and Glavine threw all the time and that helped them stay pracrtically injury free, especially in their prime.

    Zito does the same thins and basically has not had a major arm injury, he just sucks. So I really think timmy is going to stay relatively healthy with his arm.

    Now I agree not to give him and 8 year deal and had hoped they would put a 6 year deal on the table for his last two arb years and then 4 free agent years and I wasd hoping something around $120-$125 would do it (from what I read, they only got up to a 5 year offer). I was hoping to land Tim for 6 years and striking a deal with Cain to extend him by 5 years so that they both knew they would be pitching together as Giants for 6 straight years.

    But in the back of my ha always feared that tim wants to go home as a free agent and I always believed his arguments foer a shorter term deal signals that he wants to go home.

    So it is imperative to extend Cain now. I still think 5 years at $90 mill ($16 mill up to $20 mill in the last year) is good for both sides. The one thing we can’t let happen if Timmy becomes a free agent is to let the Dodgers sign him for a 10-year $200 mill deal…cannot happen.

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:47 am

      He’s not a machine, he’s a human being. His joints are going to age (at some point) just like everyone else’s. I don’t think failing to ice has burt him yet but I think he should start to do that soon. He won’t but he should.

  3. willieD said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:29 am

    F-G had an interesting column on the Pujols deal, comparing it to others like a-rod, etc. Gist of it was the writer’s op that if he were to maintain current stats for at least a the first few years then in terms of WAR he is not overpaid. They did comp numbers out, and even for A-Rod the bucks he got vs. stats produced in terms of value (WAR, again) were not out of line. Sure the back end sucks, but as you mention, pick up a couple rings during that time, as Pujols already has in Stl., people tend to forget about that stuff…ala Rent.
    I think Lince deal is great for everyone, and you see where you are when it ends. If he leaves, he leaves; even a 5 yr deal could wind up with both sides unhappy by the end, for different reasons. A trade would be possible regardless, but I don’t see SF sucking that bad short term to make a salary dump off, esp not with the extra WC in the mix.
    Maybe this takes some pressure off Z, lol. Gotta admit tho, I’m disappointed in the “fat f-” jibes at Fielder. I don’t like this guy, but he has proved he can hit well enough to get this type of deal. sure he’s not omar vizquel, but 1.000 OPS guys are dang few and far btw. If he’s healthy enough to play baseball, something nate schierholtz hasn’t been capable of the last 3 yrs, then I don’t care what he looks like.

  4. St said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:41 am

    Damn Willie, you really have a thing for Nate.

    • willieD said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:06 am

      Not really, man, he’s just one example of a number of giants who look a lot more fit than Fielder that have had injuries and missed significant time last couple years–I just don’t think it’s fair to be down on the guy because he’s big. this isn’t track, it’s freaking baseball.
      Baseball injuries, and guys that are too hurt to be able to play given conditions for players today, is kind of a sensitive issue for me. You hurt yourself swinging a bat in the on deck circle? pls.

  5. St said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:46 am

    So, is pigging out on in and out more or less a concern than icing?

    I’ve always thiught the no icing a ” good thing”‘ an indication his dad was really on to something with this delivery motion. Less stress on the arm etc…

    Googling this suggests there is still no proof icing shortens recovery or prevents injuries and in fact, some evidence to the contrary. Some say it’s a myth pitchers need to ice. One of those things that people accept becaue, well, it’s always been done that way.

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:51 am

      the studies I’ve seen on this do question the use of ice after pitching but, at least the ones I’ve read, are only looking at short term results. I believe that icing protect joints and keeps them healthy LONGER and LATER into your life than if you don’t ice at all.

      • St said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:07 am

        Makes for an interesting debate. I’ve never heard of using ice except to keep inflammation/swelling down so I don’t know. I wonder how you study something like that?

      • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:55 am

        To ice or not to ice, that is the question.

    • Sierra Nevada said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:25 am

      Google is not always your friend. There is a “controversy” over icing in the same way that there is “controversy” over whether the cave men rode dinosaurs — on the internet only, not among the scientists who have to back shit up with data and observation.

      Icing immediately after tissue stress is has been unequivocally shown to reduce inflammation. Inflammation is a very bad thing for joints in the long run. The cumulative effect doesn’t show up in your 20’s. But it will later on. Timmy and his dad have wasted an as yet unknown span of productive pitching at the end of Timmy’s career. Whether that time span is months, a year or years, and whether it occurs when Timmy is 32 or 36 is unknown. But it is a near certainty that failure to ice after extreme joint stress like pitching will reduce the productive span of his career.

  6. Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:53 am

    and regarding the diet stuff— I’ve never thought it to be a big deal for him NOW and up to this point in his life. Probably won’t be for a few years. But as he enters his late 20’s early 30’s and his metabolism starts to slow down, his diet WILL become an issue for his body, I believe…….

    • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:56 am

      Reduce fat and carbs for sure.

  7. Alleykat said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:08 am

    Tim has nevet iced his arm going back to college.Has never been an issue,Like the sayin “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.

    I say Timmy will always stay a Giant.He’s a single guy who doesnt need the long term securty like a family man (Cain) does. His 40mil will keep him happy in Ganja for the next 2 years.

  8. St said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:14 am

    No doubt his overall conditioning and stamina needed to be addressed and from all accounts he did start do a lot more between starts. Hopefully, he’s found a more nutritious way to keep the weight on.

  9. Kevin said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:29 am

    Well, and you can take this with a grain of salt, Kruk was on KNBR this morning touting up that Tim wants to stay in SF. He thinks Tim wants the short deal A. no family, and B. Kruk thinks Tim looked at all the pressure Zito has gone through after signing a huge long term contract, Tim does not want that kind of pressure. You can play analyst all day long with the “What Ifs” about Tim. Lets just hope he is ready to go this year and help take the Giants to the WS.

    • St said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:43 am

      I find it funny he doesn’t want the pressure of the 4-5 yr deal, but hey, gimme 8 yrs and I guess I can deal with it.

  10. Sierra Nevada said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:41 am

    As far as diet goes, the science is not in yet. How durable and resilient your tissues are is mostly determined by your genetics, and Timmy won the lottery with the genetics of his connective tissue. He is both extremely strong and extremely flexible, which is very very rare. But no matter how good his DNA is, if I had to bet on it, I would think a lifetime of poor nutrition is going to have an impact on when a career comes to an end. And baseball teams do, in fact, have to bet on it when signing players in their 30s. If Timmy and his dad don’t wise up and at least start saying that they are making healthy choices, the number of GM’s willing to make a big long term bet will be less. And the fewer the bidders, the lower the bids.

    Lastly, I think that Timmy’s dad has done a fabulous job with him. But if Timmy’s dad truly had a magic formula, why is Timmy’s brother not a star in the Majors?

  11. Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Kruk’s comments this morning made little sense. He talked about Timmy being single and that if he had a family he would have signed the 100 mill offer. Huh? After this 2 year deal he’ll have made like 60+ million. He couldn’t take of a family on that?
    Then he went on and on about Timmy learning from Zito and not wanting to deal with the big contract pressure until he’s earned it. Again….huh? He’s won 2 CY’s, he’s worth whatever anyone pays him RIGHT NOW. He’s clearly setting this all up to get a MONSTER deal in 2014. Will he be worth it in ’15, ’16, ’17 etc? I don’t think he will and then he’ll basically be another Barry ZIto……

    • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:03 am

      Please no!

  12. twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Timmy’s people are talking nonsense. He wants the biggest contract he can get for the most years and he wasn’t getting that here.

    • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:59 am

      Self interest is a powerful motivator..

  13. twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Nice to see Sierra back.

    • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:00 am

      Nice beer too!

  14. DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:14 am

    What are we the fuckin’ Royals? This is TIM LINCECUM!!!- THE FREAK!!! not Bill Fuckin’ Swift. If you trade him for prospects in July 2013 or just say goodbye at 29 you better be goddamn sure you’re right about it. And I do think the Zito fiasco plays a part in this.

    • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:21 am

      The key is developing top young pitchers.

    • snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 11:08 am

      Of course the Zito deal is weighing in on this. It’s mind bendingly bad, and the cheapass beancounting billionaires that own the Giants are resolved not to be screwed again. Booting Bow Tie for spending money is a clear sign they aren’t up for a Timmey LT deal…

  15. snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:18 am

    I don’t blame Lincecum one bit for maneuvering for a big payday. He’d be stupid not to do that, with $60M in the bank. As for Zito’s deal now looking “like nothing”, i don’t think so. This moronic deal has hampered the Giants payroll flexibility since day 1. He pitches like a #5 getting $1M plus incentives, the extra $19M he eats up every season is killing the offense…

    • twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:51 pm

      Do you even acknowedge the risk in signing pitchers to long term contracts or does that even factor in at all?

  16. snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:19 am

    As for Timmeh not icing, that has been widely known since he got here.
    He uses smoke instead…

    • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:23 am

      The Snarkk way!

  17. snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Given Lincecum’s success, the whole fucking pitching staff should stay away from the ice machine…

  18. unca_chuck said, on January 25, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Ice, no ice. Whatever. Pitchers in the 20s and 30s pitched 2x as often for 3x ithe innings. Yeah, some flamed out, but some didn’t. Genetics plays a part, as do a lot of other intangibles.

    After Timmy’s awful August a couple years ago, wasn’t it Timmy’s dad that told him to go back to long-tossing between starts? It sure seems like Timmy’s dad has a handle on things. The point being, no one knows how this plays out. Nolan Ryan threw hard til he was damn near 50. Carlton lasted pretty long as well.

    As far as Krukow’s blather? That’s all it is. He doesn’t know. But it’s pretty obvious from Timmy’s stance of wanting an 8 year deal that he doesn’t want to sign anything until he free and clear after the 2013 season.

    5/$100 sounds great, but guys like Sabathia (7/$161) and Cliff Lee (5/$120) are older, and getting more scratch than that. I’m sure he wants to go something like 6/$150.

  19. unca_chuck said, on January 25, 2012 at 11:11 am

    The point being CC is getting $23 mill a year, Lee is getting $24 mill a year, and I think Timmy would want $25 mill a year. As of now. By the end of 2013, who knows? $30 mill a year for 6?

  20. Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 11:45 am

    The Zito contract has hampered us *since day 1* because the ownership group lets it hamper them. Do yuo think the Tigers or the Angles are gonna sweat the last 5 years of those contracts (Fielder/Pujols)? Hell no. They all KNOW the back end is likely to suck. They just don’t care. And our owners have a shit load of revenue, they don’t have to constantly let the Zito thing restrict their moves.
    I’d also say that if Zito hadn’t SUCKED from Day 1 and given us maybe 2 good years out of the 6 he’s going to play for us we might feel a little differently about grading the deal.
    But 6years/126 mil? That’s nothing compared to the scratch flying around these days……

    • snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:41 pm

      If it’s Nothing to the owners WE have, then why the fuck always with budget, budget, budget when the Giants are top 5 or 6 revenue team in the entire MLB? Zito’s level of dough may be nothing to Arte Moreno, but to our cheapass billionaire owners that sell out the damn ATT even when the team is shite 2005-2009, they won’t even spring for another outfielder that might cost another $7M a year like Willingham, that might just put the team over the top. $130 Million? Where did that come from? Zeus atop Olympus? Moses from Sinai? Why not $137 million? Detroit was 13 in attendance last year, 700K behind the Giants who were 3rd. How the fuck do the Detroit Tigers pay Fielder $210 million in a city that is a freakin war zone and bankrupt and far less fan revenue than the Giants? The Giants treat every contract like it’s sucking the literal life out of the partnership income statement. It is ridiculous. I wish we had fucking one owner like Cuban, who is a raving lunatic in terms of wanting to win. The Niners KNOW they have a Super Bowl defense, and that they have a suckage offense. This offseason, Harbaugh and Baalke will not go apeshit, but they WILL get the WRs they need and other players to get the Niner offense to at least the middle of the pack, if not better. I trust Baalke and Harbaugh and yeah, Prince Jed, more than Giants ownership to get something done that needs to be done…

  21. Sierra Nevada said, on January 25, 2012 at 11:56 am

    Thanks for the welcome back twin and flavor. Good luck next friday, twin.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 12:38 pm

      The surgery might not get done-my conditon has been deterioratig even since yesterday. I have an oconologist here looking into chemo, usually the least effective for brain tumors.

  22. Kevin said, on January 25, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    I don’t know how many live in Nor Cal, but this is in the Chron today

    On that note, SF Beer Week 2012 is nearly here. This year’s extravaganza takes place from February 10 to February 19. The schedule is chock full of events already, with all regions of the Bay Area (North, South, East and San Francisco) represented. There are even colorful posters, people.

  23. DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    A 9 day week?

    • unca_chuck said, on January 25, 2012 at 12:50 pm

      It’s 10 but who’s counting?

    • TedSpe said, on January 25, 2012 at 2:26 pm

      Because it’s a leap year

      • unca_chuck said, on January 25, 2012 at 5:50 pm

        Or a trip year. . . (if it’s a beer week)

  24. blade3colorado said, on January 25, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    I’m not certain, but I think Twin and I were the only ones who wanted the 2 year deal (3 max.). Tim and his agent pushed the envelope and the Giants said no. I am grateful for that. God bless Tim if he proves me wrong, but I think the Giants got the best of Tim and we will receive his “apex” performance level for the next 2 years and then some other team receives his downhill slide performance after that.

    As the Flavster pointed out, the Giants should trade him in 2013 before his contract with us expires. Unequivocally! Yeah, if the Giants play this right, we end up with a couple of “Wheelers.” Play it wrong, we’re the MLB version of the Cavaliers. HA!

    • unca_chuck said, on January 25, 2012 at 2:31 pm

      Well, if the Giants are in 1st place before the trade deadline, you still want him gone? I wouldn’t.

      You gets what you gets, then you sees what happens.

      Sure, he’s got about a 5% chance of staying, but depending on the circumstances, they’d be crazy to trade him.

      • blade3colorado said, on January 25, 2012 at 2:44 pm

        Obviously not (I ‘m typing on a 7″ tablet qwerty keyboard and context/circumstances as you correctly pointed out is difficult. Grin. What I did write is almost “War and Peace” like on this frickin’ touchpad).


      • twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 2:48 pm

        They’d be crazy not to…

      • snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:57 pm

        If they’re in the hunt in 2013, they won’t trade Timmeh. They’d have a fan mutiny. If they’re even close to being out of it, they’ll trade him and deal with the blowback…

  25. twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    The Twins got Deolis Guerra , Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber and Kevin Mulvey for Santana…if I recall they turned a Red Sox offer that included Ellsbury..

  26. unca_chuck said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    Well, if they are in the hunt, I wouldn’t trade him.

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:29 pm

      I made it pretty clear that I would only trade him if they were out of it or just spinning their wheels 8-10 games back…….

  27. Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    The guys on the radio today cited his agent as saying “Timmy isn’t closing the door on being a Giant for life.” Well no shit he’s gonna say that. What’s Tim gonna say with 2 years on his current deal? “When this is up I’m gone!”. Sure Timmy isn’t closing the door. And for a mere 175-200 million he could be all ours for life. Fuck that.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:39 pm

      Good stuff here today. I’m probably more sentimental than most and emotionally attached to the 2010 guys. But it sure looks like he wants the casino contract. Fine. Not from us. But we’ll see. Solar flares could destroy the planet well before then. And speaking of destroying, here’s hoping and praying that chemo or whatever they have to do destroys the bad stuff, Twin. We’re with ya. (Welcome back, SN.)

  28. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    Regarding icing and Timmy being Mr. Elastic Man [comment above]: my daughter, and other ballet dancers, ice. They ice all the time. Lots of the time. They are “injured” every day. And ain’t be no one more elastic than they are. Ice. They ice!

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:50 pm

      Just double-checked with my daughter, read aloud to her my post: Absolutely, she said. Added you’d be crazy not to ice. ICE. Did I say ice?

      • DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 5:01 pm

  29. PawlieKokonuts said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Reading about Warren Spahn; back in those days they were brutal to pitchers and medical “care” was horrific. We know a lot more now, a lot more. (Yes, the Braves pitchers have thrown every day; has worked for them.) Incidentally, the Kaplan book on Spahn-Marichal says the Giants are among a handful of teams who’ve begun measuring certain biomechanical things in their pitchers, can’t recall the exact technique.

    • blade3colorado said, on January 25, 2012 at 4:58 pm

      Agree Pawlie. It was really bad when the doctor prescribed bloodletting for Warren. Quite a mess in the training room too.


      • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 25, 2012 at 5:11 pm

        Kaplan says Spahn felt he was never the same pitcher after the 16-inning affair and was increasingly anxious about a strained tendon. Then: “Spahn had reason to feel insecure. In Sandy Koufax: A Lefty’s Legacy, Jane Leavy spells out what passed for ‘sports medicine’ at the time. Athletes were treated with Butazolidin, a dangerous drug mainly used on horses that was later taken off the market, and a balm called Capsolin that left the body almost literally on fire. [Literally???] They took Cortisone shots to dull the pain more than treat it or Emprin with Codeine added to keep their stomachs from exploding. [Hunh?] When they used ice at all, players stuck their arms in freezing buckets of the stuff because there were no ice packs.” [p. 180]

  30. snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    So, when did icing of arms start as post-game SOP?
    How did all the old-time pitchers pitch years and years and hundreds of innings per season without icing?
    Did Cy Young or Walter Johnson ice down?…

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm

      I don’t know what they did, maybe the ice bucket. I don’t know. But for every pitcher we glorify for gutting it out in those days, there’s probably 10 who tanked from injury or ill-care. I can’t prove that; a hunch.

  31. Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    i don’t understand the people (KNBR and Merc blog) who are boo-hooin’ about TL’s limited trade clause. I can’t imagine Sabean even considering trading him before July 31st, 2013. And if he did so, it would be to a team that had a great shot to go to the WS otherwise why would they trade for a rental? If he COULD say *no* I can’t imagine that he would……

    • zumie said, on January 25, 2012 at 5:56 pm

      I can understand it without necessarily agreeing with it. Tim is probably the second most beloved athlete in SF sports history, second to only Joe Montana. Fans love TImmy and are in awe of him, the way they were in awe of Joe Montana, or the way Beatles fans are in awe of the Beatles, or Bulls fans were with Michael Jordan. You know you will not see their like again.

      • DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:07 pm

        You’re forgetting O.J. Simpson, Zumie…

      • TedSpe said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:27 pm

        Well, Loo, the only thing is these days O.J. Simpson is more beloved based on his thespian skills as opposed to his athletic ones

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:36 pm

        I’m sure that if he ever gets out of solitary at Lovelock he pretty *beloved* by the prisoners there, too……..

  32. twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Well, actually, the year to trade him is this year. They’d get more.

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:53 pm

      of course, but I can’t see it all falling apart by mid-2012.

      • twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:21 pm

        So they could lose Cain after this year, Tim after next. And get nothing. I don’t care if they are in contention NOW,letting those guys bolt with nothing in return, assures they won’t be for a long time. Of course, this might be tolerable if they had any pitchers in the system..

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:59 pm

        along with everyone else, I see Cain signing a long term deal in the Jerod Weaver-range.

  33. DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Why don’t you SF guys vote on most beloved? My guess is Tim would still be behind McCovey, Mays, Rice…..unless you’re asking 20 year-olds.
    OJ was the greatest college RB I ever saw, and probably the third greatest pro. I go with the standard Jim Brown as #1 and the injury plagued Sayers at #2.

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:55 pm

      come on. Dickerson was better than all 3 of them.

      • Bozo said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:33 pm

        Not when Lott gave Dickerson a little greeting. I’m not sure if you remember Ronnie hitting Dickerson late, and standing over him (I’m guessing, but I think it was a never come in my back field again kinda talking to). I don’t recall Dickerson making it past the line of scrimmage for the rest of that game. And, the Niners went on to win that game with Eric being nothing but a foot note.

        “If you have a weak safety who will make the big hit, the pulverizing hit, and finish off tackles, ala Ronnie Lott, then you really have a weapon. It was Ronnie Lott vs. Eric Dickerson of the Rams in a matchup that fans and media sometimes weren’t alert to. But it was Lott finishing off the tackles so Dickerson couldn’t break free. Lott would either finish him off while somebody was holding him or Lott would just meet him right in the hole and stop the play. So that matchup, the weak safety vs. the running back, also can be a significant one.” – Bill Walsh

    • blade3colorado said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:38 pm

      I go with Loo on the Juice being the greatest college back. However, he is behind Brown, Sanders, and Sayers as pros. He’s half right about Simpson being most beloved in SF, i.e., he ruled in HS (Balboa) and was loved back then. Also, ask your Mom who was most loved in the fifties as a HS San Francisco athlete and dollars to donuts, she says, Johnny Mathis . . . A great singer in the 60s.

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:54 pm

        I was half joking about Dickerson being better than all 3 but I do think he deserves a look at the top spot–certainly better than Smith who just hung around long enough,

      • ewisco said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:29 pm

        earl campbell was the best i ever saw but too short of a career. walter payton still sets the bar for having all the tools. everyone in the stadium knew he was getting the ball and he got yards anyway. blocked, dished out punishment, the whole package. the sweet one.

  34. Sierra Nevada said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Snarkk, I don’t know when teams started icing pitchers down, but I do know why the did. Teams ice pitchers because they employ trainers like Groeschner. Guys like him don’t “google” to get information about how to treat athletes, they get actual college degrees in sports training and rehab from attending actual college classes under actual professors. Those professors do actual science on treatment modalities and publish peer-reviewed articles on effectiveness. Peer review is a no-bullshit, no-anecdote, “support your assertions with reproducible data or gtf outtahere” process. Dudes like Groeschner also work under medical control, meaning that they report to doctors who oversee the care that players are given.

    I repeat, icing connective tissues after stress is a completely uncontroversial and proven modality. The only methods that work better for ameliorating the damage done by throwing as hard as you fucking can while putting batshit crazy spin on the ball are illegal ones like ‘roids. About some things Timmy’s dad is right on the money. This ain’t one of them. Timmy is f’n stupid for not doing it.

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:12 pm

      I’m 110% behind you on this point.

  35. snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    Predictions that Lincecum will break down this Spring or 5 years from are total hunches. Or perhaps wishes, depending on the predictor. He could throw a ligament out the first day this Spring. Or, not. As far as we know, Cain is just as likely to throw an elbow ligament. Hell, Cain had elbow soreness last Spring and was shut down for a while. Maybe he knows something, and that’s why he’s reportedly up for a “hometown discount” on a LT deal? Wilson ices, and look at his elbow problems late last season. All the opprobrium on this blog for Timmy after the stellar duty he has done for this team is beyond me. He’s not asked for more than he’s worth, and he doesn’t ice his arm. He wouldn’t go for a lowball LT deal. So fucking what. Zito ices HIS arm. Does everybody feel better about HIM now?…

    • DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:07 pm

      Yeah, fuck that opprobrium!

    • Sierra Nevada said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:32 pm

      I don’t bag on Timmy. He is in fact on my list of favorite Giants all time. I hope he stays as long as possible, wins a bunch of games for the Giants, smokes a lot of ganj, gets laid plenty, makes (and saves) enough money to keep doing the last two things as much as he wants until he is an old man, and tops it all off with a bust in Cooperstown.

      Your questions point out why sports training needs to be approached as a science. You see, science doesn’t work by comparing Timmy to Cain, or Timmy to Wilson, or Timmy to Zito. It works by collecting data on populations, applying stats to them that allow for conclusions to be drawn with specifiable degrees of certainty. And what the data shows is that it is fairly certain that, if you compare guys like Timmy to HIMSELF via the miracle of statistics, the Timmy that ices his elbows and shoulders after starts gets more mileage outta those joints than the Timmy who doesn’t.

      And lastly, nobody (that I can see) is predicting when Timmy is going to break down. Player contracts are bets. Successful betting isn’t about prediction. Of course, you have to figure odds. But what you end up betting is the line. Timmy’s fuckup with icing and diet is that he isn’t maximizing the odds that the years at the end of whatever LT deal he ends up with will be productive. The line, which is the money that he gets offered for that deal, will reflect that.

      • Bozo said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:50 pm

        “And lastly, nobody (that I can see) is predicting when Timmy is going to break down. ”
        Actually Sierra, most scouts passed on him because of his delivery. The main reason that the Giants even got him (from what I’ve read anyway) was predictions of break down due to his violent delivery and the Giants were willing to overlook that. I’m not discounting what you say about icing, and from what I’ve read you’re right, he never has. But people have been predicting his break down since day one, so far they’ve been wrong.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:42 pm

      Actually, Snarkkles, I predicted we’d get two great years from Timmy( if he isn’t traded ) then whatever dumbfuck signed him to the long term deal would get screwed. His contract is fine- as to Cain he should not be getting a long term, either. It is not the “Timmy Rule”. Your Timmy is not being picked on, no pitcher should be signed to a long term.

      • Nipper said, on January 25, 2012 at 10:39 pm


  36. Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    icing your arm is just a prudent thing to do when considering long term care.
    Timmy may or may not blow a ligament but my main point is clear: Don’t sign a guy for what he did on the back of his baseball card. It doesn’t stay that way for your entire career. Especially pitchers. Whoever signs TL to a long term deal (and it won’t be us) will regret it. Actually they probably won’t since none of these owners seem to give a shit about the back end of these idiotic deals they’re handing out. But our ownership and our fan base WOULD and WILL give a shit about the last half of an 8–10 year deal. Let Timmy go out on top for SF. It will only further his rockstar status in our eyes years from now…….

    • snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:25 pm

      BF, I think we have some common ground. I’m not saying the Giants should go out right now and sign Timmy to an 8-year, $185M deal. I’m generally against signing any pitcher to any deal over 5 years. ANY pitcher. I’m always accused here of playing medico, now a bunch of folks are second guessing this guy who knows his own body and has been doing the same thing for 10+ years of pitching. That, I disagree with. Let Timmy NOT ice. Most of the pitchers who have elbow or arm problems already ice. Does that mean they would have broken down sooner without it? I don’t think science is that predictive. If Lincecum goes out this year and lays an egg, everybody will say it’s because of no-icing. If he’s fine, they’ll say he’s due for a fall soon. Maybe, maybe not. If he starts icing his arm this Spring, I’m cool with that. Meanwhile, I’m going to enjoy seeing this kid pitch for my team as long as he’s here. He’s the best thing to hit this organization since Bonds, and next to Bonds, the most electric player here since Mays and Marichal. He was a huge part of this team winning its first WS in SF, they would not have won it without him. So, whatever he does, short of being illegal or unethical, is fine with me…

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:39 pm

        I totally agree on that. I’m a huge TL fan, I always will be. He is in my top 5 Giants of all time, easily. I just don’t have the same hand wringing obsession that most fans have to these players. I used to wonder why that is and I figured it out a long time ago. Horse racing is and always will be such a huge part of my life, it’s a sport I can get as passionate about as baseball. But I learned a long time ago not to get too attached to a horse as a fan, they break down, they retire, poof, they’re gone.
        Plus I see players as commodities now, they’re simply worth too much to view them any other way.
        So I have no problem bidding TL goodbye and always remembering him fondly as one of my favorite Giants. But that’s about it, on to the next player. It’s always a process in motion……..

  37. DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Except 29 might be a little young to go out “on top”. For comparison sake, the Mets are maligned to this day for trading the man they called “The Franchise”….Tom Seaver at age 32.

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:43 pm

      “to this day?” they are maligned for trading him “to this day?” If that’s true, what a bunch of weirdo obsessed fans the NY fan base is. Christ, move fucking on. Fans, in general, don’t know how to move on from their favorite players getting traded or hurt or retired. It makes zero sense to me.

      • DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:05 pm

        Absolutely to this day, Flav…

  38. Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    If you’re going Top 5 Giants of all time, for me, it goes Will Clark and Barry Bonds. Timmy is in there somewhere. 2 spots left. I’ll kick this around tonight, this could get tough. I’m gonna do it based on excitement and passion I had for them (and that they inspired in me).. Anyway, it looks like I just came up with tomorrow’s post so think about it tonight and throw in your two cents tomorrow……….

    • DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:07 pm

      Do you possess a Will Clark autographed photo?

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:13 pm

        I do not but I have like almost nothing autographed. It doesn’t do that much for me.

      • DJLoo said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:39 pm

        That’s because you don’t have one. I’m almost positive I have an 8×10 buried somewhere. I’ll try to come up with it one of these days…

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:46 pm

        Katie plays with the Will Clark manual cartoon thing all the time. She was fiddling with it even the other day. It’s in the back seat of my car. She fucking loves it. Thanks again for that.

  39. St said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Question: If icing is so vitally important and scientifically proven and Grosschener is an authority, why are the G’s not insisting that Tim ice to protect their investment? And if icing is known to be that critical, why would you still offer a guy 5 yrs 100m knowing he doesn’t?

    • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:06 pm

      I asked the same question earlier today. But the Giant trainers are the same ones who let Pablo get so fat and out of shape he could field a dozen ground balls IN PRACTICE without getting winded and needing a break. I place zero faith in a training staff having any influence over how a player trains himself. I hope they don’t get paid too much, they don’t do too much.

      • St said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:24 pm

        Well, they sure as hell wouldn’t have given a “fat” Pablo 3yrs 16m.

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:35 pm

        well no shit they wouldn’t. How long have you followed the team? I’m obviously talking about the 2010 season……

      • Flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:44 pm

        Here is an excerpt from his training at Triple Threat Performance facility in the Winter of 2010:
        “Sandoval was big-bodied to begin with. But by the time the Giants won the World Series on Nov. 1, the 5-foot-11 infielder had ballooned to 278 pounds. He couldn’t take a half-dozen ground balls without panting, hands on knees. His chronically sore hips locked up his swing, especially from the right side.
        Sandoval couldn’t do three pull-ups in early November. Now he does sets of 10. His legs shook when he tried to squat 135 pounds. Now he is squatting 400. The first day, Sandoval struggled to complete two reps of an exercise called the inverted row. He maxed out at 26 last week.”

        If none of you know what an inverted row is, it is impossible for me to believe that a professional baseball player could only do 2 of these.
        Normal, general trainers of mlb teams don’t do shit, they have no control over these guys unless the players are paying them big bucks to get them back into shape…….

      • St said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:48 pm

        That has nothing to do with my point. But whatever…later.

      • snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 11:29 pm

        BF, on the Pablo thing, I fault management more than the trainers. Where the hell was Sabean, Bochy? They obviously saw Pablo ballooning into the Michelin Man. I have no idea what they did or didn’t do that season to stop the girth inflation. But, whatever was happening, it doesn’t give one a lot of faith in their ability to get a player to take some pride in playing during the season. Supposedly dly they had a come to Jesus with him after the WS, and that’s why he got into the workout program, but why didn’t they do that during the season? If they did, then it’s all on Pablo for just blowing it off. In some ways, it’s even more of a miracle they won the WS since Pablo was not much of a contributor to it…

  40. St said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:01 pm

    Lincecum isn’t the only one being stupid then.

  41. twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    I could give shit if he ices, sets it on fire, long tosses– but of course there’s concern about breaking down.
    as to the offer 20- mill 5 years , that’s a fucking joke. All that tells is they don’t intend to offer long term.

  42. willieD said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    a week ago I half facetiously asked why anyone would want to go to Seatte. Turns out a sales rep that calls on our stores did..last week, in the f-ing snowstorm. Place was paralyzed, with off ramps closed, malls closed, and one lane open each direction on the maor freeway. All because they are clueless and unprepared for when that happens, which is rare.
    The M’s have Texas, the two time defending AL champs, and the free spending angels in the same division. Unless Bud opens up the playoffs to half the f-ing league, they ain’t gonna be in em.

  43. twinfan1 said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Timmy is likely gone but that’s hardly the problem- free agency is a fact of life,who can blame him for extracting every drop of blood when some fool igores the lessons of history. The problem is what fuck happened to the farm system rich in pitching?

    • Big flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:12 pm

      Excellent point. It really has turned into just about nothing.

      • Big flavor said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:13 pm

        At least starting pitching

      • ewisco said, on January 25, 2012 at 9:36 pm

        well they had to turn to position players to get the hitters that they need to support the pitchers they drafted earlier. at some point, soon, that will turn back around. win lose or draw with the position players they drafted. if they did good, it’s all good. if not . . .

    • snarkk said, on January 25, 2012 at 11:33 pm

      Yes, a very good question. I thought Sabean and Tidrow and Evans were turning the minor leagues around into a focus point. As for saying pitching is down because they’ve turned to focus on position players, well, OK. Where are the position players? Belt is in limbo. Burriss is nothing but a hope, clearly not an impact player. And, you can’t develop pitchers AND position players at the same time? Where’s the beef?…

  44. unca_chuck said, on January 26, 2012 at 9:28 am

    Belt still could be good to great. Crawford has a little time to either shit or get off the pot. Pablo and Posey are all-stars. Then there are guys who COULD be the real deal in 2013. Gary Brown and Joe Panik look good, but who knows?

  45. Blackandorange said, on January 28, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    There is absolutely no medical evidence that suggests icing sore muscles actually prevents injury or helps workout recovery. The only thing it does is temporarily reduce pain from swelling. I’m not sure why you think it’s so “insane” that Timmy doesn’t ice after games. If anything, more players should be skipping the ice because it can mask the pain of minor injuries and lead to bigger problems down the road.

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