A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

1-0 Masterpiece? Or Just a *Great Pitching Duel*?

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on April 19, 2012

Everyone says this was *one for the ages* and since I didn’t pick it up till the 8th inning I don’t feel qualified to comment on it.  Well, maybe I’ll comment on it a little. After my softball game ended, I got in my car around 8:50, turned on the radio, and Flemming says “So after 8, the score is…..” and I’m thinking, “After 8? After 8 what? I know it’s after 8 it’s almost 9pm. Wait, what inning is it?” I checked my clock again, still not believing we were going into the 9th inning before 9 o’clock. Sure enough, we were.

Just like last night’s game, I didn’t see any of those Marichal/Koufax duels. Even so, I am leaning towards believing that comparing last night’s game to one of those epic pitching duels from the 60’s seems like a bit of an over-dramatization. It’s a good thing nobody compared it to a Marichal/Spahn duel because that would have been ridiculous. I didn’t have to see this game to know this one was truly *one for the ages.*

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196307020.shtml

But again, I only saw the last couple of innings. I didn’t see Cain throw a pitch and I only caught an inning from Lee. Though it’s hindsight, I think Bumpkin’ Manuel made a big mistake by not letting Lee go back out there. He’d only thrown 102 pitches and he was begging to stay in. He deserved the chance to get through 11, in my opinion, and if both his head and his arm say it’s cool, why not let him? It lessened an otherwise amazing box score to have it turn into this:

But  isn’t 7 hits an awful lot to give up, even through 10, to qualify as a masterpiece? Again, didn’t see the game, didn’t see any games in the 60’s, probably not qualified to comment on what defines a *masterpiece* or *one for the ages* or just * a really well pitched game*……

But I’m sure there are many of you who did see the game and who did watch all those games in the 60’s so by all means let’s hear your thoughts on all of this……..

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  1. blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:31 am

    Cain’s last start was thought by many observers to be his best pitched game ever. I saw that game and saw only part of this game (had a conflict), so hard for me to judge which was better. Regardless, the game he pitched for the one hitter last week was excellent. Per the AP article I just read, they had this sentence,

    “Coming off a one-hitter in a 5-0 victory over the Pirates in last Friday’s home opener in which the only baserunner he allowed was a single to pitcher James McDonald, Cain was nearly as good this time out.”

    Bottom line is that Cain is pitching very, very good.

  2. gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:40 am

    Of course, game was not on the baseball package…but at least mlb network was breaking in at the end of the game for live feeds.

    Giants certainly had a couple of chances to put a run on the board, so I think that lessens the greatness to a degree for Lee’s effort. Cain was abviously magnificent coming off a complete-game 1 hitter to then just give up 2 hits. I thought he was going to be the next Giant to throw a no-hitter…it is coming…

  3. dirtnrocksnomo said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:41 am

    Excellent pitching, good defensive play and an exciting finish. I don’t know about epic but it was a great game to watch.

  4. sandog said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:54 am

    Kuip did let a quick “if this keeps up, we could be heading to Marcihal-Spahn territory,” slip out, but it was said in a way that didnt sound too ridiculous. Flem said it was perhaps the best pitching duel ever at ATT. BTW, for me personally, I enjoy Kruk and Kuip more when they are separated. Less trying to be funny and tired expressions about ownage and ugly finders when they are apart. I still think Flem is outstanding and even prefer him to Miller.

    • gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:02 am

      Sandog, did I ever tell you my wife and brothers grew up with Fleming out here in Arlington VA??? I think he is solid…

      • sandog said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:14 am

        No, that is very cool though. I hope he doesnt leave to become the Top Gun elsewhere. Id be surprised if there is another team in all of MLB that has a 1-2 combo on par with our guys.

      • Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:33 am

        GH, I spent some time in Old Town last week. After the Nats opener we went for pizzas and drinks in the Penalty Box (above Bugsys?), the Caps were on the tube, folks were partying heavy (until the end of the game) and I could smoke there. Great time.

      • gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:37 am

        Bozo, I used to work in aa restaurant right around the corner from there when I first moved here named Union Street Public House. I saw that you were coming up for a Natsd game after your home travails in the Outer Banks. I never saw if you had seen my question where you all live after we got back from Duck couple of weeks ago…

      • gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:39 am

        My thoughts on Fleming is that how can you ever have a better gig than what he has now and lives in the Bay Area covering the Giants. He is now doing college basketball and I take it he still does Stanford Football. So I would think he would have a hard time leaving all that. Nationals do not have much of a radio/tv fan base, but that could be finally growing this year. I am not sure he would be tempted to come home to be the voice of the Nationals…

      • Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:54 am

        GH I’m close to Manns Harbor a tiny fishing village called Stumpy Point (Gooberville jokes do apply). I don’t get up to Duck much (I was up there to visit some folks last month but that’s rare). I see Gaylord Perry’s old house when I use the old bridge to Manteo and pass Andy Griffith’s place on the North side of Roanoke Island as well, if I take that bridge. I limit going up the beach in the summertime, as far as Kitty Hawk usually. I only go up to KDH or past if I have a real need.
        I saw the Union Street Public House but we didn’t go in. We did go into another place (next to where the ballpark ferry comes in), I don’t remember the name but it was a good time as well.

      • gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:04 am

        Bozo, glad things are settling down for you…we have never driven past that bridge to Manteo, but we make it to Duuck every spring.

        I did not even know there was a waterway shuttle from old town to the Nats…great idea.

  5. willieD said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:21 am

    The giants hit lee, but also had 4 GIDPs, and the game was decided when Wigginton botched what might have been another. Cain dominated, with 6 and 8 pitch innings, throwing strikes. When lee needed it, he was equally good.
    Kept up with bloggers on cbs game track site, and phils fans were all over manuel for: yes, not leaving lee in, using thome (at .083 this year) as his PH instead of mayberry with the guy at 3b and 1 out, and for leaving wigginton in there at 3b late game instead of polanco. I think i’d also throw in using bastardo who is death on LH vs. melk who could switch around and go RH. Advantage of a switch hitter sure, but I wonder what splits are….regardless, LHP sure seems to befuddle the giants, and it’s no secret when a team replaces its SP, they bring in a LHP first vs. SF.

  6. willieD said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:34 am

    couple other things not related to SPs: belt starts the rally with a knock vs. the lefty and scores the run that wins it, nate and crawford (avg. continues to slide) only guys not with a hit, and pill hit the hardest ball all night, a double over victorino’s head in dead CF.
    As for comparisons to 60s…no, just imo. Koufax went up vs. Mays Mac Cepeda etc. type LUs with 3 HOF guys in the middle—there aren’t 3 HOF hitters on total rosters combined last night. Same with the marichal game vs. the Braves—there’s no Henry Aaron types at bat last night to contend with.
    Caught just a couple minutes of Sarge Matthews yesterday morning on KNBR, and he was bemoaning lack of offense, players unable to hit the ball hard a few times a game, and unable to rise to challenge vs. top pitchers.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:37 am

      excellent point about the *quality* of the 60’s LU’s vs what Cain and Lee went at last night…..

  7. Alleykat said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:37 am

    Like I said last night,”Gotta tip your cap to Cain and Lee this is one great pitching duel”.
    But how can anyone top what Marichal and Spann did back in 1963?
    16 innings each of shutout ball,Marichal throws 227 pitches ,are you kiddin me? Tells Mays,can you just end this thing with a HR,not sure if I can go another inning( but you can bank he would have) Mays said no problem Juan sinced you asked,and promptly hits a walkoff homer off im sure a dead tired Spann for the game winner.Now that game was by far “EPIC”

    Managers are pussy’s today.Im not sayin go 16 innings or throw 227pitches.But last night with a horse like Cain throwing 9innings of 2hit ball on only 90 pitches and gets taken out.thats just wrong.Im sick and tired of Managers listening to their agents and GM’s.Manuel atleast didnt cave in,he still let Lee go 2 more innings of shutout ball.Props to him.

    • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:52 am

      Good point Alleykat . . . Agree that what Marichal and Spann did was “epic” as you pointed out and probably will never be topped for the reasons you cited. Besides, Marichal is my all time favorite pitcher. 🙂

      • Alleykat said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:24 am

        Thanks Blade,Marchal is my all time favorite as well.The “Domincan Dandy could throw any pitch,screwball.curve fastball,slider,palm balll,knuckle curve,etc etc,all from different angles and all for strikes!!!!!

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:52 am

      ABSOLUTELY they are pussies today— they’re in CYA mode more than they are *try to win the game* mode.

    • ewisco said, on April 19, 2012 at 10:58 am

      I don’t think boch was listening to anyone’s agent or anything like that. it’s his method to pinch hit for the pitcher if they are leading off the ninth with the top of the order behind them to try and get the guy the W. He was looking to end it right there, not play it safe so he could have Cain pitch longer. also what happens if cain gets a hit? pinch run? leave him out there? I don’ t think it had ANYTHING to do with pitch count.

  8. Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:39 am

    I’ll be 97 in forty years so I picked B, doubt I’ll remember the game or my name at that point. I do remember being at a game under two hours that Bill Swift pitched in, I don’t remember who it was against though. Those games were getting pretty rare by the 90s. I gotta say, I do love a well pitched, low scoring crisp game, sorry I missed lasts night game, guess I could watch it on replay.

  9. gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:41 am

    Didn’t they have to pinch hit for Lee in the 11th forcing them to take him out???

  10. zumie said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:03 am

    Bozo, thanks for the answer on yesterday’s thread about the origin of Mathewson’s nickname. And talk about a pitcher who got on a hot streak. 3 shutout wins in a single World Series….in a week! Definitely a different era!

    • Nipper said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:20 am

      In those days one had to dress up in a suit to attend a game.

  11. Nipper said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:04 am

    Managers are not pussies.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:29 am

      they are huge, gaping ones afraid to make decision based on the public outcry that will follow.

    • gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:51 am

      But cats are cunts…inside Triumph the Insult Comic Dog joke…

  12. zumie said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:34 am

    It always feels like a mini “starry night of baseball” (to make an analogy to Pawlie’s cool book), when the Giants win, and the D-Backs and Dodgers lose. Two of those nights in a row has been very nice.

  13. Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:36 am

    A couple of other thoughts about last night:
    1) I am more interested in opinions from Twin, Loo, etc on the *epicness* of last night’s game. Kruk, Kuip etc were all invoking the Marichal/Koufax connection but they also have a biased interest. Whether they are conscious of it or not, they WANT to be part of that type of history.
    2) Colon’s 38 strikes in a row is unreal. KNBR said no one keeps track of those stats and I had a hard time believing that. Sure enough, ESPN says Colon’s 38 were the longest consecutive strikes since Wakefield did 30 in a row back in ’98. That’s actually more impressive since he was a knuckleballer. I’m actually pretty surprised that this current SF starting pitcher didn’t break the record for most consecutive strikes thrown in a row 🙂
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN201106210.shtml

  14. zumie said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:38 am

    And I have to admit, seeing the Red Sox lose is more fun than it probably should be. In the last few years, I have been at an A’s game, and a Giants game, when both teams were playing the Red Sox, and I got to experience “Red Sox nation” firsthand. A more obnoxious, self-satisfied, group of fans, reveling in their own sense of entitlement, would be hard to find.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:51 am

      Personally, I prefer Yankee fans to Red Sox fans. Maybe it’s because I know so many, I don’t know. I’m having an especially good time though this season as I watch Bobby Valentine, a man more filled with hubris and self-love I don’t think exists on the planet, push all the WRONG buttons

  15. gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:50 am

    Zumie, the world was a better place when the Red Sox had 90 years or so of futility…no one had ever seen anyone claim to be a Red Sox fan outside of New England, now they are like Yankee/Dodger fan cockroaches, hard to kill…

  16. gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:53 am

    MLB Channel showed all of Colon’s 38 strieks in a row all spliced together..I have never seen anything like it…

    • gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:53 am

      strikes that is…

  17. St said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Marichal Drysdale had a good one

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196605170.shtml

  18. unca_chuck said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:31 am

    Great game, sure. The reason was both guys were dealing, and both guys were not going deep into counts. If either team had scored a run, it would have been over in about 1:45. Pretty rare these days where both guys are hitting their spots and are quick about it.

    Epic? No. But it was a great pitcher’s duel. Lineups notwithstanding. But yes, it would have been more impressive if both coaches stuck with their starters through the whole game. I mean, do you compare who guys threw their no-hitters against? Drrrty gets no less credit for throwing his against a shitty Pads team over Halladay doing it against a stronger Reds team.

  19. St said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:32 am

    Surprisingly, can’t find one epic duel with Koufax. A few with Drysdale. Maybe Loo remembers.

    Marichal breezed through 14 innings in this one.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196605260.shtml

    • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 10:29 am

      There weren’t as many “epic duels” as our imaginations conjure up. Just looking quickly at 1965, Marichal pitched in one 1-0 game ( I’ll call 1-0 the standard for an “epic” duel). It was the first game of the year. He lost to Bob Veale of the Bucs in 10. Pirates won it on former “bonus baby” Bob Bailey’s walk off HR in the bottom of the tenth off Juan. BTW, McCovey called Veale the pitcher he least liked to face. Bob threw close to 100 MPH, wore glasses that looked like coke bottles, and had no idea where the ball was going in the first place. The definition of “scary at bat”. Mac was 0-4 with 2 K’s in that game.
      bob

  20. stixwiz said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Capping his one-hit shutout with this second masterpiece, Matt the Horse has now established himself as one of the NL’s top five starters. Funny how things work out. After his pair of back to back Cy’s Timmy was rated alongside Halliday, Lee and Kershaw as creme de la creme. Though i expect Lincecum to revert to form fairly soon and re-establish himself as maybe one of the top ten in the league (along with Bumgarner for sure); Matt Cain, in the certitude of his status with the team and the personal wealth to go along with the credentials, has turned the corner from being one of the better starters in baseball to being one of the very best. Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.

    Drove Pa’s old F-150 out to the woodlot yesterday to bring home a load. Had been flying a thong from a stick on the stakerack since the glory days of 2010. Yesterday that thong got a new hanging place ~ on a piece of ash growing at the edge of the grove. It was a Wally Pipp moment for me.

  21. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Bitching about missed opportunties carries a little more weight when they’re facing one of LiveFrees career mediocrities than it does against Cliff Lee…
    All double plays are not created equal-many are hard hit balls that just don’t flnd a hole. As I’ve pointed out many times,generally it’s very good hitters who ground into them the most. Of last years top 10, 7 are guys we’d love to
    have. Pujols, Holliday, Yadier, Votto, Starlin Castro, Beltran, Gaby Sanchez…
    The managers are managing the game as it’s been played for decades. You’re tilting at windmills if you’re griping about pitch counts, and the specialty relief pitcher, and today’s managerial strategies. The game was different when Marichal and Spahn hooked up– different, not better..
    But of course last night’s terrific duel doesn’t match up with the Marichal-Spahn game, or the Harvey Haddix 12 inning perfect game against Burdette that Harvey LOST…
    got a kick out of reading that Philly fans were bitching about Thome and his .083. Please, 12 frigging at bats. The silliness of making a BFD about numbers this early is, well, silly. Belt raised his average 44 points last night…
    Anyway, as I said, the game is different, not better. I totally the enjoy the bullpen cat and mouse. It helps that we have a great pen and the best puppetmaster in the game..

    • DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 10:17 am

      A good time for the annual telling of the Larry Jaster story…

  22. Macdog said, on April 19, 2012 at 10:13 am

    I didn’t pick up the game until the 5th, and my Flav moment came after the 6th when the Philly radio announcer gave Lee’s pitch count and it was less than 60. I’m usually not too crazy about 1-0 games because it seemed like every other game I went to in the 70s ended up 1-0, including a Montefusco-Koosman duel at Shea won by the Mets in the 8th. But Cain-Lee was pretty damn cool to see. I can’t remember the last time where it seemed both pitchers could’ve gone on and on and on.

    Thome pinch-hit for Lee in the 11th with a runner on third and one out, so how can any Philly fan question that? To me, Manuel’s biggest gaffe was leaving Thome in to face Lopez. I know Polanco and Mayberry aren’t very good options, but didn’t Manuel learn from the NLCS that lefties just cannot hit our loogie? Thome never had a chance, and then Hensley came in and took care of Mayberry, although I admit to being nervous when the grounder went to Crawford.

    BTW, after the Phils scored 4 in the first inning of the series opener, they scored only 3 in the next 28 innings.

  23. DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 10:15 am

    I would call it more of an anomaly than epic. Duels like that were realtively common in the 60’s. I remember the incredibly underated Jim Maloney losing a no-hitter to Johnny Lewis and the Mets in the 10th innning, I think. Saw Marichal get beat live in the 14th inning on an Agee HR at Shea (1968?) There was also the epic Koufax-Hendley duel in September 1965, I think…. probably countless others by guys you never heard of…

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 10:46 am

      now THIS is a post (and Twin’s 10:29am + Macdog’s 10::13am) that I was looking for today. Thanks.

      • DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:19 am

        Anything for you, Big Fella…..

  24. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 10:45 am

    If I recall, and feel free to correct me, Zeke is tied up.. Bochy went to Lopez after Thome was announced. If Goobs goes to Mayberry, he’s wasted a 600 HR future HOFer. And horrors-if Mayberryy doesn’t get it done- the Philly blogosphere goes postal with “lefty-smefty, you GOTTA go with Thome, not a frigging KID..” No manager can win when facing the awesome power of blogger hindsight..

    • Macdog said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:08 am

      I just read that if Manuel goes to Mayberry, the Giants probably walk him and set up Lopez vs. Pierre, so, yes, he was tied up.

  25. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:14 am

    The Jaster story that Loo is referring to ( with Loo is totally impossible to know if it’s an honest request or he’s sayinng “bore us one more time”) was one of the more incredible cases of “ownage” ever. If you’re interested, you can read about it here:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/26/sports/la-sp-crowe-20110627

    jaster

  26. DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Years ago, before political correctness and you were still allowed to have fun, I worked in the back office of a Wall Street firm in an area that was called “the cage”. I doubt that term is used anymore. Among my fellow workers were several large bespectacled black men. Some were baseball fans – some weren’t. Regardless, every year for 3-4 years on opening day they would line up outside the vault and enthusiastically participate in my annual “Bob Veale Look-Alike Contest”. And Bob Veale was already long gone…

    • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:32 am

      Gone from baseball I’m sure you mean. He’s a robust 76 YO now..funny story.

      • DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:44 am

        You are correct. I loved Veale and did what I could to honor him.

  27. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Rennie Stennett – second baseman
    Gene Clines – center fielder
    Roberto Clemente – right fielder
    Willie Stargell – left fielder
    Manny Sanguillén – catcher
    Dave Cash – third baseman
    Al Oliver – first baseman
    Jackie Hernández – shortstop
    Dock Ellis – starting pitcher

    I’m sure this is an easy one-what’s the significance of the LU from September 1, 1971 . And no, they weren’t all on acid..

    • DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:41 am

      Honky-free?

      • gianthead said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:45 am

        has to be

      • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 12:07 pm

        Yes, it was the first all-black LU.

    • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:15 pm

      Manny Sanguillen was one of my all time favorite players. Why? First off, he was fast for a catcher. Second, he swung at anything and frequently got a hit. Funny, but Panda reminds me of him. Clines was another favorite of mine. Of course, like many people I worshiped Clemente and was quite offended when people said he was a hypochondriac. Sad that much of the vindication came in his last couple of years and especially after he passed away. In my mind, the best right fielder I have ever seen play.

  28. irishman5574 said, on April 19, 2012 at 11:47 am

    There will always by discussions about what are the best years of baseball, from the pitchers of the 60s who would usually have 20 wins in a season and they would be 20 complete game winners. to the starters of today. also discussions on the DH, the pitching mound heighth, steroids, etc. Last nights game was just one in hundreds that have been great. Just as surely there have been epic failures of Giants games that are too numerous to mention. For me win or lose, Baseball is just plain fun to watch, play, whatever.

  29. Macdog said, on April 19, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    The Philly announcers were going through all the “first time since” references for the Phils, then said the last time both starters threw 9 shutout innings in a Giants game was 2002, but didn’t mention the pitchers. I’m guessing this was the game: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN200205280.shtml

    Also, last night’s game brought to mind a 2001 game that the Giants lost 1-0 in 18 innings to the D-Backs at home, although both starters — Estes and Armando Reynoso — were gone by the 8th. And the losing pitcher? Ryan Vogelsong. http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN200105290.shtml

    • Nipper said, on April 19, 2012 at 12:24 pm

      Philly fans are not too happy about their team. Some of course want to blow their team up. They keep losing series.

      • Alleykat said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:29 pm

        Screw Philly fans Nipper.If their that naive knowing they have 2 All Stars out of the LU with Utley and Howard they can just cry in their stale beer while eating their crappy Philly Cheesesteaks.

  30. snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    Perspective is needed re: last night’s game. In today’s territory of massive contracts for less than massive talent, we tend to look for greatness, to seek it out. Impatiently. Yet, greatness should be obvious, it shouldn’t need a search party to find it. Gamer gets his $60 million, so where is the production? Sabathia 7 years for $161. He’s one of the best at earning what he gets, but where are all his epic shutouts and no hitters? Vernon Wells 7 years for $126 (yeah, like Zitoid). Where is THAT production? Justification for unbelievable money is sought, but at these astronomical levels, it cannot be found. So, in last night’s game we find solace in the relative scarcity of the two pitching performances, seeking to claim it as epic. Compared to recent history where managers call in relievers if the starter breaks wind in the 7th, yeah, it was a really good game. Unusual. But, in the longer history of the game, eh, it wasn’t that special. Lee was good, but he gave up 5 hits over 9 frames. There’s been plenty of 4, 5 or 6 hit shutouts the last 50 years. Hundreds. He gave up two hits in the 10th, one to that future HOFer Theriot. Is that epic? No. Of course, Cain’s even better concurrent performance adds to the Duel nature of it, but still, the rarity of the dueling aces in these days says more about how starters are managed, about “saving” arms of starters with huge guaranteed contracts, than anything else. If contracts were not guaranteed, starters obviously would have more chances to duel. In 40 seasons, which game will you remember more — last night’s, or that 3-2 Giant clincher in game 6 of the 2010 NLCS against the same opponent? Dirrty’s meltdown, the bench clearing, Affeldt coming in to stop the bleeding — and I will always remember Uribe’s HR to right that barely cleared the wall in the 8th. I won’t remember the 4 DPs Lee got last night, or Melky’s walk off knock to right. Of course, by then I’ll be dead, too…

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 12:36 pm

      Great post

    • Nipper said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:03 pm

      The only thing I like about Philly is the Fanatic.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:53 pm

      I really liked this post—it was too long to put it in the POTD so I put it in the POTD–best of.

  31. DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Once in a while the Flap gang plays like the great Montreal Canadien teams.
    Most of the time were the Charlestown Chiefs…

    • Nipper said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:02 pm

      Down with hockey! BOO!

  32. irishman5574 said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Test test

  33. irishman5574 said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Hey flav, I have posted a comment about something over on SF Gate twice and it is not showing, that is why the test test post

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:34 pm

      So you’re…..wait a minute..huh?

      • irishman5574 said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:42 pm

        I put a link to SFGATE about old land marks and it wouldn’t post

      • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 2:08 pm

        I get that. But why would you do a *test test* here if you were havnig trouble at the gate, lol
        Also, just a tip, links almost always go to spam at a blog. Not always, sometimes they sneak through and I don’t know why the ones that do slip by and the others go to spam. But other than the bloggers I’ve banned the only thing I ever get in spam is posts with links in them

  34. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    On the other hand, there’s more to pitching a greeat game than just the hits allowed. Maybe two or three balls were hit hard off of Lee. He threw 81 of 102 pitches for strikes- there was never a time when we thought we’d score against him( after the first)-or they against Cain. He definitely WAS dominant- almost as dominant as Cain. While it was not Marichal-Spahn, there is no way it’s fair to dimiss it as just a “really good game”. It was a great pitching duel. It’s dismissed only because it happened TODAY, our imaginations have made “epic” games largely relegated to years past. This was just the 10th time in 20 years when both pitchers went 9 scorelees innings.Even the hated eastern press gives the pitchers and the performances more credit. Obviousy, an SF fan will remember more of the postseason games than this mid-April game, but that should not diminish what was indeed a great duel from two great pitchers the top of their games.

    • Nipper said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:16 pm

      Yes!

    • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:27 pm

      Everyone talks about the great duels of the past but I’d be shocked if anyone can remember even three immediately. If you have to think, it wasn’t epic. That’s why we hear about Marichal/Spahn so much- it’s the only one most fans remember immediately..the fact that baseball is different now doesn’t detract from the duel, if anything it adds to it. Rarely are two pitchers so dominent that relieving them before the full nine was never contemplated. Again, ten times in 20 years have both pitchers completed 9 shutout inning..

      • snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:37 pm

        As I said, IMO we’d have more pitching duels, if managers would allow it. The large contracts in the last 20 years make the lack of duels an artificial result of management styles and business edicts. The dearth of memorable duels is not from a lack of pitching talent or desire…

      • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:38 pm

        10 in 20 years? That is interesting except 1 thing: I can only name one of them. That number will probably drop to zero in 20+ years.
        But the marichal/spahn gm was different, better and significantly more epic just from a statistical standpoint. Since I saw neither game, all I have to go on is the box scores.

      • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:44 pm

        Comparing it Marichal/Spahn is totally unfair. What duel from any era compares favorably?

  35. unca_chuck said, on April 19, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    I saw Krukow out-duel Fernando in the 80s. I think they both went the distance, but really i don’t remember. Musta been around ’87.

    • Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:30 pm

      I remember Kruk out doing Doc. I don’t think it was epic other than the Giants not being “owned” any longer.

  36. Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Here’s another thing to consider when comparing eras (if that’s what I’m trying to do with this thread)— a TON more people saw this game than any of those games in the 60’s. How many more on comcast and mlb.com saw it than the 15,000 who saw the game in ’63? I don’t know, a million? More? I’m not really up to speed on Nielson-rating stuff. Will that impact how the game is remembered?
    Because there are only 15K who actually saw the Marichal/Spahn game. I’d be surprised if that bad boy was televised. Everyone remembers it because everyone talks about it and can see it in a box score. But they didn’t view it with their own eyes (minus the 15K who did).
    To me, *I saw that game, too* is a lot more binding to the fan base than “Hey, remember that game from ’63? The one everyone told us about?”

    • Macdog said, on April 19, 2012 at 3:42 pm

      Of course, there’s that old line that probably 100,000 now claim to have been at the game.

  37. snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    I heard on KNBR that the last time a NL pitcher threw consecutive nine inning wins giving up only 1 and 2 hits only was Claude O’Steen in 1965, and I think they also said that O’Steen actually gave up more base runners, including BBs, than Cain did the last two starts. So, though he technically did not get last night’s win, Cain matched or slightly bettered a mark last seen over 45 years ago. Certainly his individual performance the last two starts then has to be as memory-worthy as last nights “duel” game, right? Well, does anybody remember O’Steen’s performances? Nope…

    • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:17 pm

      Well, nobody frigging remembers more a couple from an any era. I’d guess many don’t remember a good game from last week.

      • snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:23 pm

        Zito’s shutout last week was pretty damn memorable…

  38. snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Belt has had 670 ABs total in the minors. 206 in MLB. So, he’s under 1000 ABs in organized ball. I don’t know how many he got in the DR in winter ball, so maybe in aggregate he’s getting pretty close to 1000 ABs in pro ball. At this point, he just needs to play consistently to see if he can hit somewhere north of .250, and with pop. If they had such concern about the hole in his swing, they should have kept him in Fresno till midseason to get 200+ more ABs to work and work and work on it without the pressure of performing every time he gets a scarce AB, then gets no run the next game if he goes 0 for 4. Huff has been in the MLB for a decade, he’s got an obvious hole in his swing for the down and in slider that he can’t lay off, and either misses, hits into his shin, or grounds to second or first…

    • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:29 pm

      This should have nothing to do with Huff. There are plenty of good reasons to give him more than 2 1/2 weeks. The good year/bad year deal, the fact that he also had a poor April in 2010, 11 million bucks, and 242 career home runs..playing Nate is what fucks it up and it doesn’t matter what he’s hitting now- he’ll do as he always does and prove for the 123rd time why he’s a 4th OFer.

  39. snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Just read where Sam Wo’s restaurant, and I use that term loosely, in SF Chinatown is slated to close this weekend, forever. An institution for over 100 years. Used to be chow mein and an insult for about $2.50. I hope it’s just a rumor, or a threat, and it stays open for more generations to experience its “ambiance”. For me, it is unthinkable to take a tour of Chinatown with out-of-area visitors without eating at that dump…

    • Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:43 pm

      Edsel Ford was the waiter known for the insults. The first time I went in was the early 80’s for lunch, went through the kitchen and up the stairs, didn’t know what I wanted when I sat down and Edsel gave me the old heavy sigh, walked away and only came back when I just had enough time to eat and get back to work. The food was inexpensive though.

    • TedSpe said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:07 pm

      I first went there in the early ’70’s when I was 10 or 11. My buddy’s dad took us and didn’t tell us what to expect. Edsel Ford Wong had me in shock before I realized it was all a joke. I remember he was seating a lady in a chair behind me and he asked me “What you prefer with this girl? Back to back or belly to belly?”

  40. Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Not Giants or baseball related but I’d like to raise a toast to a man who was a giant to me. RIP Levon Helm.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:57 pm

      Cheers, dude.

    • snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 4:58 pm

      The Weight. Great song, he sang lead on that, didn’t he? The Band is a quintessential “American” band with a unique American sound. Funny, only Levon was actually American, the rest were Canadians…

      • TedSpe said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:09 pm

        Yeah I think he sang lead on The Weight and also The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down. Great musician.
        R.I.P.

      • Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:31 pm

        Also Rag Mama Rag. If you haven’t seen The Last Waltz in awhile, take some time and watch it again. Amazing.

    • eddacker415 said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:08 pm

      Many a time I loved to watch him beating the drums and straining to sing. Sad news

  41. TedSpe said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    Another R.I.P. Jonathan Frid.
    It’s a cliche now cuz everyone’s said it but it’s true. I used to run home right after school to catch Dark Shadows. In retrospect, a shitty show. But vampires, witches and werewolves in the afternoon was just the thing to keep *me* going. At least he lived long enough to have a cameo in the new movie version coming out in May

    • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:28 pm

      I remember that show too Ted . . . that and All My Children (Erica especially) were must see television for all the girls I knew in High School.

  42. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    It seems like there have been so many deaths, or it might be my imagination. Several of the nicest men I know have passed away recently. Last Friday my pharmacist brought me some of my meds ( that’s right- the pharmacist also did the deliveries) . He died of a heart attack on Saturday. I wonn’t go into all of them, just all good men and all too young.. Levon Helm, wow.

    • BoulderTom said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:41 pm

      Excellent! Thank you, Twin.

  43. blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Not necessarily an epic game (I can’t even remember the other pitcher), but Dave Dravecky stands out in my mind, when in 1989 he mounted a return 10 months after an operation to remove a malignant tumor, and part of the deltoid muscle, in his throwing arm. It was the first of four operations.

    In his return he hurled seven shutout innings in beating the Reds (I’m not ashamed to say that I cried along with many, many other fans). Another emotional bender was his next start, he heard a snap as he was pitching against the Expos. The arm was broken. Damn, everyone was heartbroken at the time. While recuperating, he went on the field to celebrate when the Giants clinched the division title, a teammate jostled him, and he again broke the arm. Two years later, he had part of his shoulder and his arm amputated. Dravecky was the epitome of courage.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:52 pm

      I went to that first game back–there’s even a picture of the crowd in a sports illustrated from that week where you can make me and my buddy out in the bleachers. It was a day I’ll never forget. Everyone was just so happy…..

  44. Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    The last I saw him was 2010 at Jazz Fest, his voice was hurting but his drumming was still solid, he did play a little mandolin on “Got Me A Woman” a tune off of one of his last albums and a tune I play often. The Band was amazing and I loved his RCO All Stars band as well, hell I’ve watched “The Shooter” a million times just to see him do his acting bit.

    • Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:36 pm

      Sorry Blade, I meant Levon Helm. The last time I saw Dravecky was the return at the Stick. I’ll be honest though, I could never get over the John Birch society rumors with him.

      • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:43 pm

        No kidding? I had no idea . . . I knew he was quite religious, but no idea about his conservative leanings.

  45. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    I think Eric Show was the ringleader of that group, I’m not sure how much Draveky was into the real wacko stuff. Seems he cut down with the proselytizing up here.

    • Bozo said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:56 pm

      I’m pretty sure you’re right about Show, I still couldn’t get over Dravecky joining up. When he suited up in orange and black I rooted for the guy, but he just happened to be one of the few Giants I didn’t care for much (for various reasons, Brett Butler, Maldonado and Dave Roberts are also in that group for me) . I applauded his return but I didn’t give him the standing O everyone else in the stadium did.

  46. DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    “The strangest thing about being old is that all your friends are dead”

    -Art Carney (from Harry & Tonto)

  47. blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    I just arrived in the SF bay area (Sunnyvale) and am going to be here for the next 3 weeks. I have my cuz working on scoring at least 2, possibly 3 games while I am here (and perhaps, a San Jose Giants game too). Wouldn’t mind a Flapolooza summit if anyone is interested . . .

    • snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:04 pm

      Depends.
      Did you bring along any of those ladies from Costa Rica or Panama with you?
      I’m thinking of joining the Secret Service, and I need to practice my Spanish… 🙂

      • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:16 pm

        lqtm. I wish snarkk . . . However, after seeing the umpteenth American woman with her head buried in her Iphone or doing some other vascous inane thing, I am thinking more and more about heading across the border, where the women seem a bit more authentic.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:54 pm

      Steve— you probably have plans tomorrow night, but if Loo’s changes his weather prediction I could make it to an area watering hole by 5ish to catch that game with you. Let me know ASAP though.

      • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:33 pm

        My mom and dad are leaving Saturday on a European cruise, i.e., tomorrow they have me tied up with relatives for dinner . . . However, from Saturday until May 10th, I am basically on my own (watching their house, feeding the dogs, etc.). In short, I am more or less available to do anything, since I will have their cars to use.

        By the by, I have 2 tickets to a May 2nd Giants game if you are interested in going (night game). This is separate from games my cuz is trying to score while I am here. Tickets are nothing special (bleacher or nose bleed seats I believe that my step dad got during Christmas).

      • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:27 pm

        The following week is busy but I could make something happen. Possibly attending the Sat but a better bet would be the Wed TV game at 4:10pm v the Reds. I could make that one happen almost for sure. Let me know and we’ll see if we can get a flapper or two to fly into the southbay for a viewing. Also, one of the mid week Dodger games in May is a possibility on TV.

      • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:30 pm

        OK, I will follow up this conversation and give you a shout. Would love to touch base with a couple of flappers if possible 🙂

  48. DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:18 pm

  49. snarkk said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    This thing about rock stars and musicians and TV actors dying off has me thinking. I went to the doc yesterday to go over my recent tests. She says my LDL is way too fuckin high, my HDL too low, and my triglycerides are very uncool. So, to avoid taking some bullshit drugs, I can’t eat red meat, no pasta, no bread, no carbs except brown rice, no booze, no cheese. Eat only fish and vegetables and olive oil, take 3000 milligrams of fish oil every day, and check back in 3 months. So, tonight I’ll think about it. Meanwhile, while Mrs. Snark is out for the evening, I’m cooking for me and my Snarkettes rigatoni with marinara and meat sauce and parmesan sprinkles, garlic bread, and a Sonoma Zinfandel

    • DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:23 pm

      Get a second opinion…

      • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:47 pm

        Loo I haven’t checked your claim on the weekend weather report in NY but you’ve brought me down, my man. In the same way I preferred your opinion about today’s thread over anything K/K might say about it, I’m also more interested in your weather report than the local weather prognosticators.
        Having said that, can we get another update? And do you plan on hitting a game? Or at least hitting a game to look up a stairwell?

    • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:56 pm

      It can be fun completely disobeying your doctors orders…

      • DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:10 pm

  50. Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    I’ve watched ever pitch of this Ranger/Tiger game and 2 things have struck me:
    1) I still don’t understand why Yu-D is having stuggles this year. His shit is electric.
    2) The infield defense of both these teams is just horrendous. Like, the worst I’ve ever seen. There have *only* been 3 errors (Miggy, Santiago and Kinsler) but they are errors you see little leaguers make.

    • Del Mar Dennis said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:31 pm

      I finally got Richard Dreyfuss to respond to one of my “Let It Ride” tweets the other night. I said I’ve made over a dozen quotes and references, what’s it going to take to get a response? Dreyfuss tweeted back, “Sorry, I’m having a very good day.”

      I told him he made mine.

      • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:58 pm

        that’s not half bad.

  51. DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    It’s supposed to start raining Saturday night (which won’t matter) pretty much through Monday night, but WTF do they know? The timing of their one lousy NY trip this year couldn’t be worse for me, but I’m sure I’ll hit at least one game…

  52. Alleykat said, on April 19, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    Well their’s one pitcher who had a career losing record 119-121,but had an “Epic” week that no other pitcher has ever matched.
    On June 11th and June 15th 1938, his Rookie Year Johnny Vander Meer pitched 2 straight No Hitters for the Reds.

    He is also one of only four NL Pitchers since 1940 to lead the league in Strikeouts in 3 straight seasons.The others are Tim Lincecum (2008-2010) Randy Johnson (1999-2002) and Warren Spahn (1949-1952)

  53. James said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    I’d spin some Ronnie Hawkins in honor of Levon, if I was home.

    “Let it Ride”, a film esteemed by some, is now available in my netflix on demand queue. Unfortunately, I brought “The Girl Can’t Help It” disc with me.

    • Flavor said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:19 pm

      I’ve seen Let it Ride probably 35-40 times. It’s a great movie though, regardless of your knowledge of the track. Probably better if you have none but just a great appreciation of character development……

      • Del Mar Dennis said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:42 pm

        It also taught me about Chinese food etiquette: I never knew about the touching of the fortune cookie…

  54. twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    Final thought on the thread: seems to me that there is waaaaaayyy too much thought of where the duel stands, was it epic, why this or that was better… it was a terrific game won by the good guys. Will it be remembered in years to come? Sure it will, in the same way nearly all games are remembered. at least for me. You might be at the ballpark, at the bar, bullshitting with friends, doing the hot stove thing… someone will say “you know, that Cooper/Johnson game this year was as good a pitching duel as I’ve seen in a long time” Another will go “listen, fuckwad, you never heard of Matt Cain? Cain and Cliff Lee was waaaay better””Fuckwad? Whatt the hell is that about? Yeah, I remember Cain. Highest paid .500 pitcher ever…Phils had their AAA linevup. No WAY that was better, Mom…
    And so it goes..

    • blade3colorado said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:50 pm

      “At least for me.”

      Really, it doesn’t matter what anyone says to counter anyone’s opinion of what constitutes “epic,” because – as you point out in those 4 words – what matters is what you think is epic. My memories are mine and what I think is good, bad, or ugly is often times different from other’s recall of events.

  55. DJLoo said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    I hadn’t heard until now that my favorite pinch hitter, Jerry Lynch passed away a couple of weeks ago…

    • twinfan1 said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm

      I didn’t hear either. 81. I think I was 8 when I first saw him, my first year of live baseball. The guys from then are forever young in my mind..

  56. zumie said, on April 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    Part of Levon Helm’s legacy is his daughter Amy, an excellent musician, with a cool band of her own called Ollabelle. I’ve seen them in concert a few times, including once at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival, which lost its founder recently, Warren Hellman (speaking of folks who we’ve lost recently.)

  57. zumie said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    That D-Back LOOGY, Patterson, flat-out cheats, standing several inches off the rubber to the left. Braves aren’t going to complain, though. They are lighting him up. Dude’s ERA is taking a beating.

  58. Del Mar Dennis said, on April 19, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    Bill Veeck wasn’t only a baseball showman and promoter. This date is racing: April 19, 1969—Bill Veeck, promoter and president of
    Suffolk Downs, staged a $10,000 race featuring all female
    jockeys, then a novelty in racing. Called the Lady Godiva
    Stakes, the event attracted such riders as Diane Crump, Tuesdee
    Testa, and Robyn Smith. It was Penny Ann Early, however,
    who won the race—her first career victory. The previous
    year, Early had attempted to ride at Churchill Downs but male
    jockeys boycotted and the race was canceled.

    Anything to bring in an extra buck.


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