A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

What’s Next?

Posted in Uncategorized by ewisco on July 9, 2012

Obviously not a great east coast swing.  The panic button looks awfully tempting right now.  So let’s just give it a push:  Ahhwooogaahh, aahhwooggahhh.


Right-handed bat!  But who?  And really more importantly, whom does that bat replace?  It’s all fine and good to talk about more of this or that but the reality is:  who’s better, that’s available, than we already have?  In the outfield, I think Pagan is the most suspect, but that takes in both offense and defense.  That said, I think he’s actually quite serviceable.  Certainly not great but again, who are you going to get?  Blanco has been struggling but he sure looks good for them in the leadoff spot when he’s going well.  Crawford?  Not all that many shortstops with power and average on the old trading block.  Timmy Jim?  I think it’s far more likely that he fixes what ails him than someone comes up from the minors and takes them to the promised land.  Not saying he will fix it, just that for them to get to the playoffs it will more likely be because he found a way to get it done, not because we picked someone up at the trade deadline or brought someone up from the minors.  For better or worse, I really think that this is what we’re going to work with.  They might pick up a reliever.  They might pick up a bat.  But who is going to have to sit down is going to be the interesting question.  I think that there are times when it’s useful to say:  “you are it.  Quit looking for someone else.  You have the talent, you need to find the inspiration and get it done.”

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  1. blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:28 am

    Lincecum absolutely needs to turn his season around 180 degrees for the Giants to have a good chance for the playoffs. To date, they have more or less, been able to hang with the Dodgers, but just about everything has gone wrong for the Dodgers as well, e.g., Kemp on the DL, Gordon, Ethier, and “Barbara” too. You also have to consider the recent resurgence of the Snakes. They will not go away quietly either.

    Two stats indicate that it will be very difficult for Tim to resurrect his season:

    1. Lincecum has allowed 69 earned runs – most in the majors and three more than his total from all of last season. He has allowed 47 earned runs in 47 innings on the road this season.

    2. Flav referenced Dirrrty as having the worst ERA in baseball yesterday, albeit, as he pointed out, Jonathan didn’t have sufficient “qualifying starts.” Guess what? Timmy does . . . The two-time Cy Young Award winner enters the break with a 6.42 ERA that is worst in the majors among qualifying starters.

    We are in some deep shit, if you couple the aforementioned with the problems that Ewisco – by the by, nice opening post Ewisco – enumerated.

    This is what Timmy said about his own problems:

    ”You never want to say, ‘Hey, I’ve hit rock bottom,’ or anything like that,” Lincecum said. ”But when things are going as bad as they are right now, you’ve kind of got to go out there like you’ve got nothing left to lose. Leave it all out there on the field and what happens, happens.”

    The good news is that we are a 1/2 game out of first and the team gets a few days of R & R. We also begin the 2nd half at home and as the saying goes, “oh, Auntie Em, there’s no place like home!”

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:55 am

      Stats relect what Tim has done thus far, they do not say anything about whether he will be able to turn his season around- it’s the why behind the numbers that will determine that. BTW, Eric does not really enumarate problems as much as pose some questions. We’re not in “deep shit”, the other teams, even healthy, have problem areas themselves.
      Certainly the most significant problems are what is currently bedeviling Lincecum and history shows as to Zito- so as I’ve said- rooting for your ERA “King” should take a back seat to hoping Tim reverts to form and Zito doesn’t.
      As far as this RH bat deal- I think many of you are not understanding that we are most likely taking about a bench bat. As I said, a Wigginton type, not another Beltran.

  2. chipower said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:37 am

    Well, I don’t anticipate significant changes for a couple of reasons.

    First, I am not convinced that “significant” changes are needed.

    Some are calling for a power-hitting RH bat. There are a couple of problems here. 1 – Who is available, and 2 – just do not think the Giants have that many pieces to trade away.

    I think Sabes will look for someone who has some pop…maybe a fourth OFer or someone who can play the corners.

    I could also see them shoring up the relief pitching. A RHer who can go a few innings (think Mota). (Hmmm…will it be Mota?)

    Outside of this…I truly don’t see big changes.

    And no way it is time to push the panic button. The team is a fricking half game out. They are very capable of winning their division (and I think they will). And if Cain, Bum, and Vogey are on, and the pen is doing its job, they can compete with anyone. I do think they’ll need a few minor adjustments, and guys will need to be consistent for them to make significant noise in the post season.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:30 am

      I’ve removed the panic button and replaced it with a random fart button. You are correct of course, while there are some areas where help would be *nice*, they need to balance the cost of obtaining that help with how much of an upgrade it really is.
      Milwaukee ain’t taking Nate and a couple of Iron Joes for Hart. I doubt they’d take anything less than Brown+ and we’d be crazy to go for that. Hart “fits” and they could scrap the Buster at first nonsense by platooning him with Belt and he’d certainly get a lot of time playing for Blanco and Pagan. But he’s not worth losing Brown and his 10 million buck price tag for next year is too much.
      One or 2 utilty players and/or a 5th starter starter type is more likely. The waiver wire is also where they’d look.

  3. chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:40 am

    And yes…very nice topic and post, Eric.

    • ewisco said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:46 am

      thx kind sir. I depend on the kindness of strangers.

  4. chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:43 am

    Oh, and most of you have probably heard…Cain gets the nod to start the AS game.

    It will be cool to see Cain and Posey open the game for the Senior Circuit, but honestly, I thought RA had earned the right to start.

    • ewisco said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:48 am

      no, hadn’t heard!! it is too bad about Dickey though, he did deserve it. If i was the manager though, i would have pitched him second too. nice change of pace. I’m sure the mets think that there’s a conspiracy.

      • zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:03 am

        I would have been hesitant to start R.A. because of the way the Yankees roughed him up in that inter-league game. The risk/reward of starting him in the All-Star wasn’t worth it, IMO, in regards to the NL getting off to a good start.

  5. zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:55 am

    I hate the All-Star break every season, but this one is even worse because it’s 4 days this time, and the team just had that horrendous road-trip, and now we have to wait 4 days for a chance to experience victory again. And the thing is- I’d hate the break even if they had had a great road-trip, because then I’d be peeved their momentum was being broken by the All-Star break.

  6. denniszu said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:58 am

    LA seems to be in freefall (going 5-15) with virtually no run scoring capability ; so I’m not pushing the panic button. Yet…..
    However, I think we need to see some more power/extra base and less station to station hitting… It’s nice to see the marked increase in steals but there’s too much LOB and that, to me, just means trouble.

    Is it just me, but is Casilla’s performance starting to worry anyone?… In his last 5 or 6 appearances he doesn’t seem to have the closer shutdown mentality…

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:07 am

      Maybe you’re misunderstandng ‘station to station” hitting. More power, less running *is* station to station hitting

      • denniszu said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:20 am

        Point taken. But my reference to station to station hitting , in my mind, was the apparent ground attack with a sprinkling of steals but a lack of extra base hitting (including , what 50 hrs to date) that has left the team with ‘manufacturing’ runs for scoring.

  7. Bozo said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:02 am

    One thing I’ve noticed about Tim (besides velocity) is his fastball tends to rise now. In the past he had sink movement and batters would swing over the top. The pitches that hit 93 and 94 during the Nats games were at shoulder or head level. I don’t recall him throwing one of those for a strike.

    I think we have missed Mota in the pen. Don’t know if he’d be baseball ready after the suspension but I’d imagine would be checking him out.

    Bench – That is the weakest link IMO. We do have a couple young catchers that someone might want. Does Burriss get DFAed to make room, or is he included in a trade? Does Huff have anything left or is it early retirement time? I don’t know, but in 2010 the Bench saved our butts quite a few times.

    • chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:15 am

      I agree John…bench could use an upgrade (that was my thinking with a 4th OFer with pop, or someone with pop who can play the corner IF positions).

  8. willedav said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:04 am

    I think Corey Hart, as Loo brought up last night, does fit those parameters tho Chi. This is a solid .800 OPS guy who hit 30/100 2 yrs ago. His numbers are down this year (like a few other brewers) and he is striking out more than he has. He’s 30 yrs old, reasonable contract, and can play 1b/corner OF. No idea what it would take to get him in addition to Nate, but I’d guess it would involve pitching.
    Wisc does make a valid point about no one really sucking bad enough to be replaced (like a Tejada or Huff from last year), but adding a player like this improves quality of the depth your team quite a bit. I’ve always liked Polanco too as a tough out type of guy. To me he is a big improvement over Theriot and could back up Sando at 3b very well. I don’t trust Brad Penny much either.
    Btw Nip—hope you enjoyed watching yet another 4 hour marathon Yanks/Boston game last night. Both teams required 190 pitches to go 9 innings of a 7-3 game. F the f-ing DH!

  9. chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:17 am

    Agree…Hart fits what I feel the team needs (RH bat with pop who can play a couple of positions).

    And also agree on the DH…just get rid of it (won’t happen). It totally fucks up a beautiful game!

    • Nipper said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:42 am

      DH is the future.

      • Nipper said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:43 am

        More Instant replay hopefully soon.

      • Nipper said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:27 am

        Pitchers suck at the plate.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:03 am

      As I pointed out, unless they have given up on re-signing Melky, I don’t see them committing 10 million to Hart for next year.And we have no pitching to offer them, BTW. As with Victorino, Brown is who they’ll want.

      • DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:29 am

        Well maybe we give ’em Brown. And what’s $10 million? Melky’s gonna be looking for 9 figures. And isn’t Pagan a possible goner as well? At least we’d have one OF locked up for 2013.

      • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:40 am

        As I posted before- if they have given up that they can re-sign Melky, it might be a consideration. But no Brown. People who don’t really follow the minors do not understand the significance of what’s he’s done in raising his average by about 30 points in the last month.The Eastern league is a far better barometer than the PCL.He’ll be our CFer for at least the next 6 years, IMO.

  10. ewisco said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:41 am

    btw, two of the great button pushing sequences involved Jack Lemmon. The Great Race (“push the button Max!”) and How to Murder Your Wife (“no one will ever know?”).

  11. willedav said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:13 am

    Great aricle in Chron today on giants that dominated AS games played in KC–mays in ’60 and bobby bonds in ’73. This is online too at SFgame.com. Bonds that season hit 39 HRs, 43 steals 96 rbis. He was a free swinger who struck out a lot, but what an incredibly talented guy to watch, with his own style.
    There are 4 great pix in the online story, including mays as a Met and aaron together, one of bonds (in white shoes?) crossing the plate greeted by bench and morgan, and one of CF “cesar sedano” crashing into the wall in a leaping attempt at a reggie jax triple. Sedano? Doesn’t anyone there fact check this shit?

    • DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:25 am

      Cedeno was touted as the next Willie Mays. He was a huge talent. Speaking of “How to Murder Your Wife” and Cedeno, I think he might’ve murdered his and gotten away with it, I don’t remember the details. I could be wrong, it was around 1974.

  12. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Normally, I don’t watch much of the HR derby— it’s a novelty act that’s passed and Berman’s HR calls are absolutely un-listen-2-able.
    But I will watch at least the first round tonight, and maybe more. I’ve always felt that KC has one of the best bleacher backdrops in all of baseball. And the LU is pretty interesting, too. Mark Trumbo? He could hit a ball 600 feet tonight. He’s a monster and my pick for *longest HR of the night*
    It will also be fun to watch Kemp swinging out of his shoes. I tell ya, it couldn’t be any dumber of a move for him to come back after being gone so long and start swinging a dramatic upper cut swing after swing. And what if he pulled his hammy again? If he swings hard enough, he could do it.

  13. Nipper said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:46 am

    The Giants need a rest and this good for them but still I hate All Star breaks. I don’t like the phony game and I hate the rule that guys show up because their team has to send someone. That’s not the best of the best in my opinion so basically it’s a total waste of time except for the phony WS thing tacked on.

  14. chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:16 am

    Back to Melky and Brown…basically the OF situation. Melky can WANT 9 figures, but I don’t see him getting that kind of coin. Sure, there will be some significant offers, but 9 figures…I don’t see it.

    I agree with Michael – I think Brown is off-limits.

    Pagan and Melky are both FAs next year. That doesn’t leave much if they don’t re-sign both or Melky.

    The quesion on Hart and $$ to me is more how much they want to take on this year. Rowand and Sanchez’s money rolls off next year (almost 20 mil). But again, the question becomes what would the Giants have to give up to get him. Brown…hell no. A young catcher and a mid-level pitcher?

  15. demp28 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:16 am

    Very good piece ewisco. I really like the line “you have the talent, you need to find the inspiration and get it done.” I think that speaks volumes; whether it’s in everyday life, or as a professional athlete.
    I do believe the Giants were kicking the tires on Corey Hart about a year or two ago and nothing came of it. I just don’t want the Giants to mortgage the future again like they did with Wheeler for Beltran, or Nathan, Bonser and Liriano for Pierzynski. Sabes needs to hang on to guys like Hembree, Joseph, Panick, Brown, Peguero, and even Hacker. So as far as the current 25 man roster, find the inspiration and get it done.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:47 am

      Hart for Dirtty was the hot trade topic in late 2010. Obviously, that not happening turned out to be one of the best things that ever happened to the Giants. Dirrty went on to have a great September and pitch the clincher and we ended up getting Melky for him after the 2011 season. If we make the Hart deal in 2010- ,no World series, no Melky…

  16. blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:18 am

    “Maybe you’re misunderstandng ‘station to station” hitting. More power, less running *is* station to station hitting.”

    “People who don’t really follow the minors do not understand the significance of what’s he’s done in raising his average by about 30 points in the last month.”

    “Stats relect what Tim has done thus far, they do not say anything about whether he will be able to turn his season around- it’s the why behind the numbers that will determine that.”

    “BTW, Eric does not really enumarate problems as much as pose some questions.”

    Thank God you are here to enlighten us imbeciles.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:35 am

      These are all true statements, Steve. I imagine most do know those things, those who don’t can choose to ignore them, of course. I’ll be happy to discuss them with you, if you like. BTW, Demp had some kind words for you about your revivised comments the other night. I mentioned that I was pleased that you heeded my E-mail.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:56 am

      “Station-to-station baseball is the strategy in baseball where, if someone gets on base, that person just stands there (takes no baserunning risk) until someone else gets another hit. No bunts, no hit-and-run, no steals. This is a safe and boring strategy that ballclubs with a lot of power, but very little speed employ”

  17. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Month by Month for Brown:
    April .227
    May .258
    June .284

    July .436

    He is currently our only blue chipper- we need to get a lot more than Hart to give him up, IMO.

  18. ewisco said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Are we sure we like the idea of cain starting? why does atlee and big daddy come to mind?

    • DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:40 am

      I think Timmy floundered as well in his ASG start, right?

    • chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:42 am

      Bid Daddy started an AS game…Atlee GotHammered, did not.

      I like the idea. Points made here and off-line with others – Posey is used to receiving Cain, and not a knuckeballer (but who is). Also, Someone mentioned the way the Yankmees tattooed Dickey. Maybe the logic is Cain gets the NL off to a better start. I do think that with his wins and stats, RA deserved the start, but can see the logic for Cain, too.

    • demp28 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:52 am

      Big Daddy started the ASG and got tattooed by Bo Jackson. Estes tried to hold a one run lead in Cleveland and gave up a go ahead homer to Sandy Alomar, Jr.

    • zumie said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:53 am

      It’s very cool. A reminder to the baseball nation that the Giants won the World Series a mere year and a half ago, and are still a team to be reckoned with.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:06 am

      If Matt says he’s freaked by Atlee and the others, I will be, too.

  19. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:52 am

    “Body of work” does have a place with these things, so does what virtually all observers have rated as one of the two or three greatest regular season pitching performances ever. Cain totally deserves the start. IMO.

  20. zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:11 am

    As All-Star games of sports go, it’s the best one. It most simulates the actual real games. The basketball one has no defense, and the football one is an embarrassment- a bunch of guys just trying to avoid getting hurt, and moving in slow motion. The hockey All-Star game is probably a good one, but I’ve never seen it. I don’t watch much hockey.

    • DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:27 am

      The hockey game is also a joke, zum. No hitting, checking or defense whatsoever. The goalies are under siege for 60 minutes. They’d be better of playing it on a tabletop with metal rods.

  21. DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Most famous Giant pitching moment at an ASG was Stu Miller getting blown at Candlestick…

  22. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Only two of our guys played last year, if I recall. Pablo had a solid RBI double, and Wilson got a torture free cheap save when he entered with two on in a 5-1 game and got the last two outs.

  23. snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Brown is one of the few Giants prospects that might turn into a good major leaguer. They shouldn’t trade him for a short timer. If there’s a rental RHB to be had, they’ll likely get a bench player, which would be just OK. They should get a real contributor with pop — with a high price tag that’s burning a hole in a team’s pocket, pay all his salary, and then in exchange unload a coupla question marks, which is pretty much all they have to offer from the minors. I wanted Willingham in the offseason, maybe they can get him now, but it would be hard without giving up one of their few prospects. He’s got two years left on his deal after this season, that would account for the likelihood they won’t sign all 3 of the current OF starters. His price at $7 million per is very doable. Ratings for the Giants minor league system are consistently in the basement — low to high 20s out of all MLB. Fangraphs has them in the bottom 3rd at 23. SF just loaded up again on pitchers in the draft, their minor league system looks like a wasteland for position player potential for SF the next 3-4 years except for Brown, Panik and the 2 catchers. I don’t think they’ll trade either of the two catchers, because the jury is still way out on Hector. Kieschnik, Peguero, Culberson, ada yada makes me want to barf. If these guys were really good, they’d be up by now for an extended look, and we already saw Culberson — his wife is a major league looker, but he’s nowhere near a major leaguer now, or probably ever…

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:42 pm

      Kieschnick is injured or he might have been up instead of Christian. Peguero had a big June, finally showing signs of becoming the guy some sites rated as highly as Brown. 12 BB in 340+ AB is awful, though. He’ll play up here, though, at some point. Noonan was highly rated prospect who flattened out. His good PCL numbers are suspect but he’ll get a look – at least as a utility player. Susac and Panik have been disappointments in a league where even Burriss and Crawford hit very well in, and Joseph is not progessing as a power hitter as hoped- but he can hit them in big bunches, I’d consider him our #2 postion play prospect after Brown. Sort of a sleeper, if a former 1st round pick can be a sleeper, is catcher Jackson Williams, probably the best defensive catcher in the system- including up here. He’s actally hitting a lick now, with some pop. He could challenge Hector next year as the 2. As far as the rating, a lot of that is because our best prospects have graduated. Looking at the roster, I ‘d say we have a pretty nice group of home grown stars and stars to be.

  24. Nipper said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:52 am

    Outside of Twin who follows the minors? Who really knows the talent level?

    • zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:05 pm

      Well, “follow” can mean a wide range of things. I’ve seen the San Jose Giants play, but I don’t check their stats very often. It’s hard to know who can make it as a major leaguer. The game is such a grinder. Even if you have early success, the league adjusts, then you have to make adjustments yourself.

      • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:49 pm

        I don’t go to their games. Follow in my case means see who they draft, read the scouting reports, “follow” their progress, read follow up reports from reputable sites like BP, Baseball America, Fangraphs, etc. About as much as a house bound fan can do, and well more than all but a few do.

  25. PawlieKokonuts said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    Good post, esp. in pointing out the hard realities. Nice to fantasize about *wanting* a player or *getting better* but that does not come without a cost. I’m not good at this sort of conjecture, as you all know, hence my quietness in the off-season on such speculation. But Sabean will do SOMETHING. And I just don’t have a sense if it will be dramatic or merely minor tinkering. The weird thing is, I tend to miss the guys we give up, until the newbies show their value, at least. But if Nate, say, were traded, I’d always associate him with the memory of standing 20 or so feet in back of him toward the end of Game 1 of the Series.

    • zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:31 pm

      I’m kind of surprised how quickly I lost interest in the careers of the former Giants from the 2010 team.

      • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 1:09 pm

        I’ve always followed how our players do when they leave. It’s probably from growing up when players were with teams longer. Also, I knew many players in my teen years in Minnesota- while few have ever been guys you’d want to discuss politics with, when you can think of them as human beings more than just a commodity , it’s easier to care about them. Even ones I don’t know, as in that 2010 team, some just strike a chord- Andres, Dirty, Travis.. I liked them then, I like them now, I like them even if they’re doing poorly- as now. I feel for them for how things have worked out. I understand what Z is saying. I’m just not that way

  26. zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    ESPNU is stepping up to try to get some viewers during the All-Star break. They’re broadcasting “The Top 25 College Football Games of 2011.” They’re at #21 right now. Missouri at Arizona St.

  27. DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    Amazing to think how the Giants system used to churn out (and trade) talented young outfielders a long, long time ago. That’s sure changed…

    • zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:32 pm

      Yeah, and all the World Series titles that got us in those days. (grin)

  28. chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Kieschnick, when healthy (notice is say “when”) has actually had really good numbers. Before running into the OF wall and hurting his shoulder this year, his line was pretty damned good:

    BA .319, OPB .390, SLG .623, OPS 1.012 – 14 HR and 37 RBIs in 197 ABs.

    2009 in San Jose he hit .296 with 23 HRs and 110 RBI.

    The following two years he really fell off in Richmond.

    And again, he always seems to be hurt. If he could stay healthy, he has potential.

    • chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:39 pm

      Notice I say “if,” too. And IF my Aunt had balls, she’d be my Uncle…

      Pawlie – in regards to Sabean doing “something” I suspect more along the lines of minor tinkering as opposed to dramatic.

  29. snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    The Bucs McCutchen is an example of why I would not give up on Belt. Belt has shown flashes of power, of getting it at the plate, then dims out. McCutchen was a good player the last few years with speed and some pop, but “all of a sudden” this season, here he is blossoming into something very special. He’ll be 26 in October. From 2009 through 2011, his first three full MLB seasons, he had about 1700 PAs, with BA .286, .286 and .259; his OPS a bit above .800 each year. Certainly very good on a bad team, but not the breakout player he now appears to be. He’s also got better hitters around him now. McCutchen had near 2000 PAs in the minors, includng a full season at AA and a full season+ with about 800 PAs at AAA. Belt has just over 430 PAs in MLB, and somewhere around 900 PAs TOTAL in the minors. He turned just 24 in April. The Giants have fastracked this kid way faster than McCutchen, even allowing for Belt’s time in college ball. If Huff hadn’t fallen off a cliff the last two seasons, Belt would still be at AAA, getting the training and ABs he obviously needed. The kid just needs more PAs for the hitting bulb to finally go off and stay on…

  30. chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Totally with you on the “not giving up on Belt” thoughts, snarkk.

    • Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 1:12 pm

      I don’t think we should *give up* on him and without any serviceable back up I don’t even think he should be sitting during this slump he’s in. But to compare him to McCutchen, on any level, is misguided. McCutchen has been a stud every year he’s played at the big league level. He’s always stolen bases and this year he’s added power to his game, as well as a huge bump in his batting average. Put simply, he’s ALWAYS produced at this level.
      If you want to compare him to a player who has struggled but was still given regular starts and then finally broke out I suppose you could compare him to Pedro Alvarez or someone like that.

      • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 1:22 pm

        .259 BA in his third MLB year was a stud? He’s been good to very good on a bad team. Compared to Belt, McCutchen had close to 1000 more minor league professional PAs before he started his first MLB game. I think that is a HUGE developmental difference, and along with obvious talent, a reasonable explanation of why McCutchen hit the ground running in MLB…

    • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 1:18 pm

      Yeah, ChiP.
      Belt had barely over 200 PAs in AA and about 275 PAs in AAA. Seems to me a lot of people expect this guy to be a William Nuschler Clark, Jr. redux and after only 62 games in the minors, hit dingers off Nolan Ryan and become an all-time Giant overnight. That goes for Giants management and the broadcasters, too. I just don’t get it. Until lately, Kruk and Kuip were on this kid’s ass like he stole one of their advertising gigs…

  31. PawlieKokonuts said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Cutch is electric. Owns the town. Rightly so. And seems utterly delightful. The scoreboard ran videos of Pirates players attempting to do imitations. Cutch did Eddie Murphy and — I think — Kermit the Frog [the crowd was loud and my hearing is shot; too many Dead and Airplane and Band and Beatles concerts]. He’s having fun. Glides. Runs. Swings. Catches. They sure better keep him.

  32. snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Last week sometime I commented that I thought Bobby Bonds played in white cleats in an all star game. Check out these photos today in the SFGate from the 1973 AS Game in KC. http://tinyurl.com/77bnz3s

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:20 pm

      doesn’t it look like one white shoe?

    • chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:22 pm

      I don’t care what team is wearing them…white cleats suck…they should be outlawed with the fucking DH…

      • Nipper said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:23 pm

        Yeah pitchers make good hitters!

  33. chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Or, start a PABL (Panzy-Assed Baseball League) where they use the DH and wear white cleats. All pussies are encouraged to apply…

  34. snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Cain deserves the AS starting gig. He’s toiled in WCoast obscurity and bad run support for years and gotten 2 AS gigs before without being able to pitch in the games. Not to mention shutdown performance throughout the 2010 POs, including WS. Dickey has come out of nowhere, and deserves the AS staff member gig, but not as game starter…

  35. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    McCutchen had 23 bombs and 23 stolen bases the year he hit .259–that is pretty big production. Go find a dozen 20+/20+ guys in the league. There aren’t that many of them….

    • Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:04 pm

      board at work so I looked it up. Last year, there were exactly 12 20/20 guys. They’re all elite.

    • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:16 pm

      I’m not saying “Cutch” is not elite — NOW. 2011, his .259 year was his THIRD full year in MLB. With another 1000 PAs in MLB and two more years experience, maybe Belt will be “elite”, too. Cutch had 1000 more PAs in the minors than Belt before his first MLB at bat, that vast difference in pre-MLB plate experience cannot be ignored. There is no doubt that Belt has been rushed through the system due to the Giants POS offense and lack of 1B alternatives. As far as steals go, that stat is comparatively irrelevant for Belt as a 1Bman. Nonetheless, he’s still pretty damn fast for a guy that big…

  36. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Here are the odds for tonight’s HR derby
    2012 Home Run Derby – Odds to Win:
    Jose Bautista (TOR) 4/1
    Mark Trumbo (LAA) 5/1
    Matt Kemp (LAD) 5/1
    Robinson Cano (NYY) 5/1
    Carlos Beltran (STL) 11/2
    Prince Fielder (DET) 11/2
    Carlos Gonzalez (COL) 13/2

    I’m gonna say Trumbo hits the longest one but Cano wins it….

    • blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:30 pm

      I’m going to say Trumbo wins it all and Prince Fielder hits the longest.

      • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:37 pm

        I agree with BF that Kemp doing this is nutzo. I’d bet that Stan Conte did not sign off on it…

  37. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    I think I saw that he was 7 for his last 39- after a June where he was .296 .400 OPB .963 OPS 4 HR 15 RBI. It’s early to be concerned about the slump or ga-ga about June. They sure as hell can’t continue using Hector instead of Belt 40% of the time.

    • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:30 pm

      Totally agree. Hector is a clear overall upgrade on the Stewie/Whiteside no-hit tandem. But, his OBP is now still nearly 100 points below Belt, even after Belt’s bad June. Hector’s had 2 BBs in 120 ABs– that’s beyond ridiculous even for a young player…

      • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 4:22 pm

        Brandon had a very good June, maybe you’re referring the current slump. I love Hector but the Posey/Sanchez alignment is plain B.A.D. for the team on every level. It’s clear now that he has nothing to do with the success or failure of Zito or Lincecum, two positions are downgraded defensively , and he is a downgrade offensively from Belt.

      • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:00 pm

        Yes, I meant July and the current Belt slump…

  38. demp28 said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    For those interested, the AAA All Star Game will be played on Wednesday from Buffalo

  39. demp28 said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Hey ChiP, white cleats and the DH? Aren’t the A’s in that PABL?

    • chipower9 said, on July 9, 2012 at 3:55 pm


  40. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Apparently the Met fans are all up in arms over Cain starting over Dickey. Fuck them, I’m loving it. It’s an important game to win. If I was managing I would consider not pitching Dickey AT ALL if the game is close. Knuckleballs are impossible to catch and his go 80 mph, an unheard of number. Is there a catcher on the NL roster who has even caught a knuckleball pitcher? I’m fairly certain that Posey, who didn’t catch until college, has never caught one. I don’t want the game decided on a bunch of passed balls in a single inning. If the NL went up 5 or down 5 then I’d put him in. Otherwise, enjoy your all star game *experience* from the bench.

    • Macdog said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:57 pm

      I’ve gone at it with Mets and even non-Mets fans over this, including Posey being called another 5-letter word that starts with p and ends in y because he supposedy “can’t” catch a knuckleballer. IMO Dickey should be the starter; he has a slight edge over Cain in just about everything. But really, who cares? It’s a fucking exhibition game. And Mets fans pretty much whine about everything. If the Mets ever won the World Series, their fans would probably bitch that the rings aren’t big enough.

  41. snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    A big West Coast middle finger to the Mets fans. And, while I’m at it, to the Yankees fans, too. Being a Yankee fan is pretty damn easy — it’s like being JFK — whether in the White House or on the road, the Secret Service arranges for you to get laid by Marilyn and Angie Dickinson and 20 year old secretaries and other top talent (ignore Nov. 1963). Giants fans are like Nixon — we got laid once in 52 years — by Huff in a red thong; loved it, and are paranoid it won’t happen again…

  42. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    Any chance Berman ditches his staid “back, back, back” bullshit? ESPN has to know that this guy has passed his time and is, in fact, now grating to listen to. If I was running the derby I’d let each player bring one of their home announcers to call each of their at bats–it would be fresh and it literally would have no downside.
    I also will give props to this year’s cast– it’s far from boring. Kemp participating? Trumbo? McCutchen? And guys like Beltran and Fielder certainly don’t have to do this. Nice LU.

    • demp28 said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:26 pm

      Flav, I’ve been watching and Boomer has said “Back, back, back” twice when Beltran and his gold slippers hit seven homers.

  43. zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    I’ve been reading a new Cronkite biography that’s out, and I read a part that talked about CBS buying 80% of the Yankees in 1964. Walter got lots of free tickets. It just struck me as kind of quirky that CBS was the majority owner of the Yankees for a while.

  44. zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    Berman is a hard guy to figure. What’s his broadcasting legacy? It’s hard to pin down. He will forever get credit for helping to build ESPN into the juggernaut that it is today. But how did he help do that? I think his NFL Primetime show was a big part of that. It came into being right about the time fantasy football was taking off, and everyone was starving for football highlights on Sunday night. Although, Berman never got any criticism, it seem like, for flat-out stealing Cosell’s “He….could….go….all….the…way!” catchphrase. Now just about everyone thinks that it’s Berman’s catchphrase. It’s kind of low to steal someone’s catchphrase, but no one cares in this case. Maybe because Cosell wasn’t all that likable of a person.

  45. DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    The original “back, back, back” for those who may not know:

    • zumiee said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:50 pm

      Berman has kind of an encyclopedic knowledge of this kind of thing. And maybe he starts off doing it as a tribute, but at some point it becomes flat-out theft. But since so much time has passed, no one really cares except people like us, who are aware of some of the broadcasting history.

  46. DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    I believe that was Gionfriddo’s final game.

    Zumie: Few people realize that the hideous Yankee broadcaster, John Sterling, stole his dreadful signature “It is high, it is far, it is gone” from Bob Gamere…

  47. blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    Twin, something has bothered me today regarding two posts you wrote – one was to me this morning and another was to Demp last night, after I had already gone to bed (see below):

    “twinfan1 said, on July 8, 2012 at 11:25 pm

    I was glad to see that Blade reconsidered his original thoughts after I E-mailed him about it. Nice to see you again, Demp.”


    “twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:35 am

    These are all true statements, Steve. I imagine most do know those things, those who don’t can choose to ignore them, of course. I’ll be happy to discuss them with you, if you like. BTW, Demp had some kind words for you about your revivised comments the other night. I mentioned that I was pleased that you heeded my E-mail.”


    The first post makes it seem as if I apologized to you for our brouhaha last night concerning Lincecum. Specifically, it is vaguely worded, where someone following the thread last night, might think I emailed you to apologize. As we both know, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, I am still pissed about that issue.

    However, what really pisses me off, is that you have revealed a personal private message you sent to me via email on the Flap, not once, but twice (last night and this morning). Equally galling is the fact that you are so insecure and/or want to take credit for being some sort of Ann Landers (between Demp28 and I). Again, one time wasn’t sufficient for you, you had to make sure everyone knew about how fucking instrumental you were as a “peacekeeper” today too.

    What the fuck is wrong with you? Don’t you have any integrity?

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:41 pm

      If you want to discuss it with me- send me an E-Mail.

      • blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:52 pm

        Are you really that obtuse? What exactly don’t you understand in my message above? There is nothing to “discuss” Michael, except an unequivocal apology from you. If you can’t do that . . . then I’ve said my piece, thus the end of the conversation.

      • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:06 pm

        I’m not discussing it here because of the innocent third party involved.

    • Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:48 pm

      interesting. I read that this morning (re-reading the blog last night) and it absolutely appeared (to me) as if Twin was referencing some kind of apology you had sent him for calling him out on an absolutely *call-outable* post. It didn’t make any sense when I read it and I appreciate you clarifying it)……
      Twin, last night was a bad night for you. I had to alter the *quote* you attributed to me after you only posted part of it, skewing the overall message. Don’t do that again.

      • Ratsy said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:51 pm

        As the world turns…

      • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:02 pm

        You are both wrong. The apology is owed to me, I don’t expect it, but you owe it.

      • Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:08 pm

        well, I wasn’t that bent about your *hand-picked” section re-post of my post. I knew what you were doing. And it wasn’t delete-able so I just re-posted the entire quote. And with that, I choose not to discuss this further with you.

      • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:10 pm

        Works for me, always has.

  48. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Cosell’s work on boxing and with Ali is his legacy. Most of the rest of his work is his shame. Berman belongs behind the camera. It’s a crime that the excellent Bob Ley has played second fiddle to the “Boomer” since the get go. ABC’s Arledge, who made tremendous contributions to the industry, also ushered in the “bang on the table” school of broadcasting, of which Berman is a leading practioner…

  49. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    these gold balls are a joke. It’s like the trick golf ball you buy at a novelty store just to *wow* your buddies off the tee and then laugh about it later. There’s no fucking way those are legit, every single one of them goes out.

  50. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    I really wish Kemp had gotten skunked there—this was nothing more than a pub stunt. But again, the fucking *gold ball* goes out–though barely, I think it bounced off the top of the fence and went over.

  51. Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    What a bunch of piece of shit fans in KC right now. Screaming in delight over every out from Cano? The HR Derby is entertainment first and foremost. The dude played late into the night, caught a red-eye and now they’re mocking him? Fuck that……

    • Macdog said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:24 pm

      Ha-ha, I loved it. KC fans still got the hate going long after the Yanks and Royals went at it in the playoffs. And, of course, there’s the pine-tar game.

  52. Del Mar Dennis said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    The Marlins should inquire about Cano’s father. He induced more outs the first half than Heath Bell.

    • blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 6:54 pm

      Good one. 🙂

    • DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:04 pm

      DMD: Hope you sent it in on MMM. I think I got even for the year. And you definitely helped. Thank you.

      • Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:09 pm

        what’d he go off at?

      • DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:11 pm


      • Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:18 pm

        very nice, Denny came through big time……..

  53. blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    I’m surprised that Bautista is participating in this competition. His batting average has been down this year and I don’t think this helps him.

    • DJLoo said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:16 pm

      That’s correct. Home run derby stats do not count.

      • blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:17 pm

        lqtm. Yer killin’ me 🙂

  54. Del Mar Dennis said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    I’ll root for Bautista here in the finals because he’s on my fantasy team. That, and I don’t know any jockeys named Fielder.

  55. blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Sheesh, I can’t believe Bautista is practicing for this in the underground batting cage.

  56. blade3colorado said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    I thought Pedro Gomez was laid off by ESPN after his Barry Bonds gig.

  57. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    I’ve seen him do a few pieces since- soccer, something on Strasburg, I’m sure he’s done lots of work for them since the Bonds days.

  58. zumie said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Ha, the Pine-tar game someone mentioned. Brett absolutely broke the rule on the amount of pine-tar on the bat, and in a classic moment from Billy Martin, got caught and ruled out by the umpire. And incredible homerun, by the way. Off a high fastball from Gossage. And then the commissioner ruled that although Brett had broken the rule, he had not violated the “spirit of the rule.” That’s some funny made-up stuff by the commissioner at the time, whoever it was. I know you all know this stuff about the Pine-tar game. I just think it’s some pretty funny stuff. Brett exploding out of the dugout, the whole deal. That’s some cartoony stuff there.

  59. sinceseventy8 said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    This place is surely doomed. I know I don’t have a “right” to comment on the personal happenings here since I am not at all a regular & never will be. The negative atmosphere here has prevented that from ever happening, even though I have stolen a guilty pleasure from the drama here over the years way back to Blogspot & even the Splash. It’s just a bitch fest here now between a few that I can see, with Flavor & Twin at the center. You have just soured on each other & it’s too bad because you are probably more similar than you are different. I had high hopes with the new format – new ideas, new perspectives, contributors pulling for each other etc … & 90% of the time it has been great but the other 10% just drives some people away. That positive vibe has ended as quickly as it began. Flavor deserves a lot of credit for what he did here & I learned things about baseball from Twin that I never could have learned anywhere else. There are many different, great personalities here & I wish you all good luck & fortune in the future. This will be my last day reading this blog. Go Giants! That’s what it’s all about!

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:52 pm

      I’m sorry to hear that. The new format has been an improvement and it’s too bad that last night happened- and it IS the first brouhaha since the new format. It would be counterproductive to get into he said-he said, and I don’t intend to do it. I wish you’d reconsider, though- I remember you, and have always enjoyed you. Give it another shot.

    • Flavor said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:45 pm

      I’ve heard from many flappers and lurkers saying the same thing. The blog is dying, the stats clearly show that. I wish I could change that, but I can’t. I stepped away from writing, it’s only done so much. The *poison* is still here. I suppose the next step is hitting the *blog delete* button.
      Sorry to see you go, I liked you, but I totally understand why you and others are leaving. Catch you on the flip side……..

    • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:22 pm

      The new blood writing ledes is great. If you don’t have a little bit of thick skin here, then that’s too bad; but you can develop it. You can still read and post here on occasion, as you wish. I’ll speak for myself, but I believe all here welcome new posters and readers…

      • twinfan1 said, on July 10, 2012 at 7:04 am

        As I said to 78, the new format is a *clear* improvement but I wouldn’t get into he said/he said on this. Craig sent me a link,maybe just a symbolic one, to hit the the “Delete Blog” button, which I’m sure as heck not doing.

  60. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    Billy was the absolute best.

  61. willedav said, on July 9, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    As far as position players go, I have a hard time getting excited about home grown SF prospects. Despite all the analyses from experts and glowing projections on what they might accomplish, I’ll reserve judgement for when I see it. Right now I see Belt Posey Sandoval….plus crawford, who could easily turn into a very serviceable defensive whiz/.240 hitter that holds down the 8 spot for quite a while. Hector hits about as well as he does right now, with zero patience or plate discipline; he’s a backup C, a position for which the bar is not very high.
    I’ve also seen Nate, culbs, pill, gillaspie and now cristian….yawn. Gary Brown could be the CF for the next 6 yrs—but whether it’s at mlb level or in japan, no one knows for sure until he gets here and shows he can do it. All the experts are doing is guessing at it. Educated guesses? sure, but no one on the face of the earth knows how he is going to handle himself at that level. Call me jaded, skeptical, cynical, whatever—prospects are NOT major league ballplayers. If I wanted to watch a team full of those guys I’d drive to Oakland.

  62. twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    4 of 8 position player starters, 4 starting pitchers, Wilson, and Romo seems like a pretty good home grown group to me. I haven’t checked other teams for their numbers, maybe someone else has. It doesn’t seem like a low number to me, though.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 9, 2012 at 9:17 pm

      I think Brown will be their CFer because I watch Eastern League numbers the closest of all. I consider it the benchmark- much more so than the PCL. I’ll watch as he finishes the year but how he’s come on almost week to week is impressive, to me, anyway. Lots of things can derail a kid, but I like him to succeed here. More than I like giving him up for a guy who will be gone in a year.

      • snarkk said, on July 9, 2012 at 10:24 pm

        I’ve never seen the kid play except on youtube, but he reminds of an amped up Brett Butler. That would be a good thing…

      • willedav said, on July 9, 2012 at 11:31 pm

        Hey, enjoy watching the Eastern League. But the only way to determine whether he can play CF for SF in the National League, for 6 yrs or 6 innings, is when he actually does. Right now he’s a pipe dream.
        There was a stretch of over 10 years when the Giants were a factory for athletic good hitting OFs that were mostly black or latin, plus a couple 1b named McCovey and Cepeda. What I’ve seen of their OF prospects for quite a long time now has been very disappointing.

  63. twinfan1 said, on July 10, 2012 at 6:02 am

    In the sense that evey prospect is, you are correct. Some are given better chances than others. not by me, but by scouts and GMS etc. I do enjoy “watching” how players develop, or not, that’s just me.

  64. willedav said, on July 10, 2012 at 7:06 am

    2010 sabes acquired most of what drove the team down stretch and playoffs–except for Posey and sando (in his lone down year), you had huff, sanchez, rent, uribe, ross, torres and burrell. Now he has replaced the entire starting OF all over again, from outside. Out of all the guys we had in the org at SS in ST, crawford is the best we have, and Theriot is our starting 2b. Too many of our recent prospects just couldn’t hit mlb pitching well enough to preclude Sabes going outside the org to find starters.
    Pagan is our starting CF right now–like blanco he did not have a very good June. Currently his OB is .330/slg of .407, 5 HRs 5 triples 15 SBs and 1.7 WAR according to b/r. Can Brown do better than this, and how soon?

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