A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

I love the smell of pennant in the morning

Posted in Uncategorized by eddacker on October 4, 2012

As unusual as 2010 WS WIN! was, being division champs today, with a couple of days rest and a team that looks to have a decent chance, is a heady, out-of-body feeling all its own.

I think we should just bask, talk about the season’s accomplishments our personal highs, how we appreciated what was done, watch the best-of-the-losers games and enjoy this day.
Tomorrow? – put the game faces back on!






Posted by Flavor:

And I now present to the world, the Final Flap Fantasy League Standings. Edd, you dominated the rest of us with a 3.5 point *cherry on top of the soup* day yesterday (still not using that “soup” word right, am I?) . Congratulations to you and everyone who played hard till the end. Blade gave you a run for it but in the end, you were just too strong. DIRT gets an honorable mention for finishing 4th, almost as good as an improvement over last season as this year’s champion, Edd.

And . . . Kevin sent this pic in.

Boo hoo!

119 Responses

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  1. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 6:45 am

    There were so many surprises and successes this year. Buster winning the batting title (and ultimate MVP). Zito getting 5 starts from September 1st on and going 5-0. He manned up and finished strong, something he’d never done with us before. Marco Freaking Scutaro hitting .362 for us–his 190 hits on the season was a number that Will Clark only eclipsed ONCE in his entire career (Thrill had 196 hits in 1989). The Bullpen-by-Committee (which evolved into Romo as Closer) worked. It flat worked. I don’t recall another team winning their division (in recent memory) using the B-B-C. Pagan’s success after Melky went away will never be forgotten (he was 15 for his next 30). Belt’s evolution was something he had to show and thank God he finally got there.
    And how about one for the A’s? Man, this reliever *Scribner* literally became the MVP of the team in one 3 inning stint. Facing a 5-1 deficit after Griffin puked in the 3rd inning, Scibner comes in and calming shuts the Rangers down, giving the A’s a chance (that they didn’t miss) to come back and win the game. Scribner is literally responsible for leading the way to the AL West division crown. If he doesn’t do what he did, the A’s are likely the Wild Card and facing a 1-game elimination scramble.
    The Season’s Big Loser: Ron Washington— I’m not a big Wash fan, at least from the standpoint of thinking that he’s overrated. Bochy undressing him with such ease in the 2010 World Series was too much to consider. But for Wash to not have any answers for his team who came in and couldn’t win a single game out of 3, that just further supports my belief that he’s “just a guy”. I know the players love him and all, but at some point he’s got to show the way, push the right buttons, etc. Massive failure on his part, with that locked and loaded team, to come up so ant-small over the last couple of weeks of the season.
    Huge congrats to the A’s, this is one of the great sports stories in history………

  2. chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 7:09 am

    Cannot argue with you on the suggestion for the day, Edd. And congratulations on winning the FFL.
    Speaking of the Flap Fantasy Leauge, I seem to remember talk that someone tanked and basically quit this year. If so, and if there is an opening, I would appreciate consideration for a team next year (I’ve been there once, and would welcome the opportunity to compete against you knuckleheads, again).
    I was just reflecting on my drive in today on the multitude of things that helped our San Francisco Giants win 94, and the division this year. Craig mentions a number of them. I said the other day that the “most surprising” to me was Tim’s meltdown. Right there though is Buster’s year. To come back from the injury the way he did is just fucking amazing. Many of us wondered if he could even be in the squat for half the season…one hundred games, etc. He absolutely shined behind the dish, and at the plate…oh hell, he HAS TO BE the MVP. Many contributed to getting this team to where they are. Melky certainly did. Pagan certainly did. Pence did too. And don’t forget Pablo, or Scutaro, but Buster has pretty much consistently done it ALL YEAR, and to me, that is what separates him from the others. What a great year.
    And I will give a shout-out to the Oakland A’s. 13 out at one point this year…who would have thunk it. Certainly not me…I remember writing them off at one point. I was at the local brewery to do my football picks yesterday afternoon, and got to see some of the post-game celebration. Pretty fucking cool. Can it all translate into a Bay Bridge Series II? I think that would be cool as all hell, but let’s forgo the earthquake this time.
    Anyway, it is a wonderful day to be a Giant fan, and a blessing to be involved on this blog. Thanks to Craig for creating this site and giving all of us a place to talk about the Orange and Black.

  3. Bozo said, on October 4, 2012 at 7:29 am

    I’m going to try and make this a Giants off day for me. A day to charge up for the Playoffs. Tonight though, I plan on toasting Pirates fans as Pittsburgh extended it’s season losing streak to 20. I think those fans have to be pretty special to endure such a thing, I don’t know if I could handle that, year after year.

  4. willedav said, on October 4, 2012 at 7:47 am

    Snarkk had an interesting post yesterday, re:basking. I don’t want to be the Braves, who won a ton of divisions and were in the playoffs every freaking year for like 12 seasons, and wound up winning it all only once. SF is obviously the class of this division, with a much more balanced team than 2010, solid pitching up and down and a nice mix of vets and youth in the everyday LU. I don’t foresee drop offs that plagued us 2011, and barring injury I think this is a team built to last that can only get better.
    Overcoming all the adversity they did and winning the division in the last two months after trailing LA all year is a great story. Cain had the perfecto, Posey will win the league batting title and the MVP, Z had his best year here in terms of wins, yada yada. Knocking off LA head to head was great, and so was Tuesday night game.
    But just getting in is going to be quickly forgotten if they make an early exit. Reds and Nats have been on top all season, Braves played us real tough last time they were in town, and the freaking Cards happen to be defending champs and got back in without Pujols.
    Bochy is supposed to give out the rotation after today’s workout…I didn’t see Vogs yesterday but reading Baggs he apparently pitched very well. He has also given up one earned run in last 3 starts. I doubt he has earned enough cred back to get a start in first round, but I wonder if Bochy is giving Lincecum one last shot to see if he can regain 2010 playoff form for game 3 this year. Wouldn’t surprise me if how he does ultimately determines his future with Giants, for better or worse.

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:06 am

      Didn’t the Pirates lead the division over the Reds for a period of time? Agree with John…what a meltdown by the Bucs…that shit would get OLD real fast.

  5. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:05 am

    Regarding the AL MVP: How can it be anyone other than Miggy? He accomplished one of the rarest and most difficult feats in all of baseball: he won the triple crown. And he did it leading his team to the playoffs. Trout? Is that a joke? He went 30/30? Big freakin’ deal, lots of guys have gone 30/30. Plus, he did NOT lead his team to a playoff spot.
    It should be a total fuckin’ landslide victory for Miggy…..

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:07 am

      Agree whole-heartedly. If it is ANYONE other than Miggy, then it is a total fucking joke.

  6. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:08 am

    and a final shout out to the A’s for how they did this: they lost 3/5ths of their starting rotation in the last 6 weeks of the season. Think about that. Think about if the Giants had lost even 1/5th. That’s just totally astounding……

    • willedav said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:26 am

      and balfour solidified closer role after being taken out of it earlier. The A’s went through about 4 different guys as closer; wasn’t the AS guy (Cook was it?) their closer at that time? Balfour looks lights out these days.
      I’m not trying to doom it up or in any way diminish what SF has accomplished this season under Bochy. But, as I was telling Snarkk sat night, I grew up listening to Giants in the early 60s on radio every day and night, and it seemed like someone always stole the thunder away from them (pirates, reds, dodgers, cards even mets in 69), including ’62 when I watched finale in 6th grade class. Giants had so much talent in those days and never once won it all. And playoff losses are always magnified (hello ryan howard) and inevitably cause some dominoes to fall…

  7. Alleykat said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:28 am

    Miggy is a lock for AL MVP.First triple crown winner in 45 years,Frank Robinson the last in 1967.

  8. paulinasia said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:39 am

    I think it was Yaz in ’67, Robinson a year or two before that….

  9. demp28 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:00 am

    It looks like most of you Flappers have pretty much covered the Giants season of 2012, but I have to second the motion on the fact that I also do not want to be the Braves and win the division every year and win just one WS title. But let’s not forget that the Giants winning a division title is just as special. They’ve only won the West 8 times and never in consecutive seasons. Phillies fans took their team for granted when they won the East five years in a row and got what, one WS? Embrace the fact our Giants won the West, because it doesn’t happen every year. It would be nice, and it could happen.

  10. twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:03 am

    To play the devil’s advocate on the AL MVP read Stark’s analysis on Page B.

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:11 am

      Read it…I beg to differ. To me, it should be a LOCK. If I had a vote…it would be Mig.

      • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:17 am

        I’m just presenting an informed case for Trout. I haven’t taken a side on it yet. Certainly if defense and baserunning don’t count, Miggy is the clear choice. It’s a bit closer if those assets are part of it.

      • Macdog said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:32 am

        Trout had a great season, would love to see a Jersey guy win it, but . . . first Triple Crown since ’67, that’s good enough for me, it’s Miggy all the way.

    • eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:27 am

      I read it, and knew that this vote will be hard. Trout is without a doubt an amazing all around player. I knew most of those numbers. fantastic. Was he the mvp this year? I am not sure, but he was hugh. Miggy is more your great power batter, that came in this year to prove he can lead a team. A lot of the speculation, up till the end, was that it was mike unless miggy wins the triple. They are in a dead heat race for eddacker.

  11. Salty said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:05 am

    Might as well savor this because absolutely it could all come crashing down real quick. So, although I’m going to be hugely disappointed if they don’t get to the WS, I’m going to try and appreciate the lesser accomplishment as much as possible. Taking out the dreaded Bums on the next to last day adds to the Division Title. Together, a nice way to end things if indeed, this is as far it goes. Was thinking about the rivalry and why it still fires me up. Seems silly after 50 yrs. I know part of it’s because I lived in Orange County for about 8 yrs as a kid, all my friends were dodger fans and I had to take a lot of crap.

    • willedav said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:55 am

      Agree on the intensity of rivalry. That Tuesday game was riveting, and K/K noted no red lights leaving the parking lot early. dodgers and fans were way into it…that f-ing drum beating was getting to me.
      Right next door to where I work in south bay downtown there used to be a Sports Gallery collectible store. They switched mgrs. a lot before the owner (who rakes online from what i understand, not so much in house) of this one moved out. The last guy to run it was an OC guy in his 20s who had played some HS b-ball…and showed up one day in his blue LA hat. Un freaking believable.

  12. eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:10 am

    I have been a Cabrera fan for a while. I think he is the most talented hitter I have seen in a long while. 10 years in the league and .318 is not bad. Plus he has the bat speed and strength to use that hitter’s eye. And now the triple crown. I am truly happy for the man. This year I had my doubts. What would moving him to third do to his swing? He has had some personal problems as well so 2012 I had my doubts. I was wrong.

    I hinted a while back that I thought the A’s were starting to look like the could be in the WC game and they did me one better.

    I chose the Reds as my favored team to play us for the NLCS and I think we match up well. I am looking forward to seeing the 25 man roster.

    SOUP: There was a book written a hundred years ago that used the expression ‘wear your soup and fish’ [tuxedo]. In cockney [poor side of london] they have a special language that uses rhyming words, but I do not know it. Except one – telling porkies. pork pies were a common food and pies rhymes with lies. It is unique speek. I also know the one of ‘don’t get yourself in the soup’ which I was told came from an explorer seeing cannibals cooking. And, of course, souping-up something like a car.

    Thanks for the props @ the FFL, a great time was had by all (question mark)

  13. demp28 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:11 am

    On another note, some of you have thought of having another Bay Bridge WS. I was born and raised in the Bay Area, and as fun as that would be, I would have to say, for once, I’m not in favor of it, for obvious reasons.
    First off, do you REALLY want the Giants to play the A’s? Oakland was not supposed to be here, and as much as it has been the feel good story of the year, the A’s are playing out of their minds, having fun, and playing with house as it was in 2010. The A’s, in a way are channeling the 2010 Giants. They have their own misfits and castoffs.

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:54 am

      Yeah Mike, I am one of those who has said a BB WS would be fun, but you’re right…the A’s is the last fucking team I would want to play right now.

      So, on reflection (prompted by your post), the other match-up I would like to see is us against the Yank-Mees. (I think we owe them one – at least!)

  14. demp28 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Money. I meant to say house money.
    Finally, do we really want to see Casilla pitching in relief against the team that released him? You saw what happened back in June. Trying to protect a two run lead against the A’s, he serves up a 3 run walk off to a .197 hitting just called up ftom the minors catcher. Casilla shits all over himself ’cause he’s trying too hard when he faces the A’s. My thought is, is leave him in the ‘pen. I don’t trust him IF the Giants play the A’s. I know, I know. That was then, this is now.

    • eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:28 am

      I say we give the WS to Dusty. He deserves it.

      • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:31 am


      • eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:33 am

        You know, has a great team, was a great Giants manager and that other stuff. SF loves him, so why not.

      • unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:54 am

        Not this year.

      • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:01 am

        Edd – I suspect you are seriously fucking with us. Either way…here is my retort:

        Fuck that! Not this year! NOT EVER!

        I dig Johnny B., but he is the fucking enemy now. NO PRISONERS!

  15. blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:30 am

    Twin, I read that too, as well as other articles that support Trout being the MVP. I know where Zumiee, Flav, Chi, et. al., stand regarding the AL MVP and I respect that. However, I think Trout is the MVP.

    Perhaps, I am prejudiced due to having Trout on both my Fantasy League teams, where I followed him each and every day of the season. I also had him on one of my fantasy league teams last year when he came up at the end of the season for a “cup of coffee.” In my mind, Trout deserves the MVP as much as Miggy. This isn’t to say that Miggy doesn’t deserve it. I am not saying that. However, Trout is very much in the conversation for the reasons Stark cited. Couple that with his superior Saberstats, he is my MVP.

    I’m not going to argue it with anyone here – sort of like politics and religion – I wont convince you to change your position from Catholic to Protestant, nor Republican to Democrat. Same deal with Trout. One last point, I keep all my trade offers and other correspondence from my fantasy leagues and I just counted how many trades were offered to me for Trout – 15 total, including 2 straight up deals and 3 variations of Miggy for Trout (multiple players for Trout). I turned them all down.

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:06 am

      That’s cool, Steve…and I in no way want to argue it, either, and I appreciate that. Either guy could get it and, in my opinion, it would be justified. And while I know the Triple Crown is not the be-all/end-all in baseball, it is a pretty damned special feat. I’m still down with Miggy. Like I said earlier…if I had a vote, he would get mine. Oh, and I think it very cool how you got Trout in the FL “cup of coffee” and held on to him through all the trade offers.

  16. Salty said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Article convinced me Trout is deserving as well.

    • Salty said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:58 am

      But I’d go Miggy.

    • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:21 am

      As I said ,I presented it as a case for Trout. Z’s post yesterday made me want to look into into more. It’s not just a sabremetric argument for Trout, BTW. I haven’t decided my position, maybe I won’t. The AL doesn’t interest me much anymore.Except beating their representaive again- who will not be the A’s.
      BTW, unless I’m badly mistaken, Texas is not out of this. Craig may be right that Ron Washington will end up a loser ( but hardly the season’s big loser ), but his team is very much alive.

      • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:49 am

        my argument is that it was inexcusable for him to lose the divisional crown. A huge failure on his part. If they win the WS, or even get out of this first round of the playoffs (assuming they win the WC) then he will have made up it.
        But he’s already lost, to me, by giving away the AL West crown.

  17. unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:02 am

    Sure, Trout’s deserving, but Miggy should get it. The trriple crown is no mean feat. It hasn’t been done since 1967. Miggy led Deetroit to the playoffs.

    Trout’s still considered a rook, right? If so, he’ll get that, if so.

    Much like Buster getting the comeback POY but not the MVP.

  18. Macdog said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Another argument on Trout’s behalf: His team finished with a better record. Which points out a big flaw in the playoff system. If five teams are going to make it, then it should be the best five, not 1-2-3-4-6. But that’s not going to happen with a system based more on geography than merit due to the divisional alignment. Maybe if they were the Indianapolis Angels of Terre Haute, they’d be the ones getting ready for the A’s and not the Tigers.

    I imagine this was the same kind of debate baseball fans had in 1941: Ted Williams, who hit .406, with no one hitting .400 since, or Joe DiMaggio, whose 56-game hitting streak that season has, of course, never been matched. DiMaggio got the MVP.

  19. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:06 am

    I don’t use WAR as a metric to evaluate players in fantasy baseball for obvious reasons. I’m not against using it as one way to judge the MVp race because defense is of course important. But I do have a problem with how the WAR number is calculated because numerical calculations for defense have a long way to go, IMO. It’s still an assessment tool that is in an evolutionary process. And I think in 5 years (or less) someone will have found a more accurate way of assigning a number to how well a player plays D.

  20. eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Bobby Valentine will not return as the Red Sox manager in 2013, he was fired Thursday morning.

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:31 am


      I am surprised he made it until the end of the year. I think that happened because the brass didn’t want to admit that they totally fucked-up.

      Hey, even though he won in Japan, the Japanese didn’t want Bobby V around any longer (supposedly a beef with the GM)…he was canned after one year with a two-year deal. Go figure…

  21. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:17 am

    Here’s another point about using WAR and other peripheral stats: most voters don’t really understand them but they don’t want to look “stupid” so they cast there vote behind a WAR leader because they feel pressure to do so.
    Winning the triple crown (and leading your team to the playoffs) is ample reason to vote for Miggy.

  22. unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:24 am

    Hey, Kevin, wherever you are, I posted the pic of the Dodger dugout that you sent to the unstable ones after their season went down the tubes . . .

  23. chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:32 am

    Article by Baggarly on 25 man possibilities. I posted the other day that I would not be surprised if Bochy goes with 12 pitchers (mentioned in this article). I think it is almost a lock they go with 12.


    Any thoughts on the 25?

    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:45 am

      Thanks for the Baggs column Chi. I am down with Bochy’s 24 roster spots and would prefer Huff sit this one out. Christian or Whiteside are fine with me for the last slot.

      • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:58 am

        YW, Blade.

        Yeah, here is how I see it:

        12 Pitchers (5 starters, Affeldt, Casilla, Kontos, Lopez, Romo, Mijeres, Mota)

        Starters: Posey, Sandoval, Crawford, Scutaro, Belt, Blanco (at home, at least), Pagan, Pence.

        Bench: Arias, Nady, Sanchez, Theriot, and…either Whiteside or Christian.

        I like the point Baggarly made about Whiteside (freeing up Sanchez to be used off the bench).

        Anyway, I appreciate everything Huff contributed to the 2010 title, but he is just too much a liability (with his lack of speed, etc.) for this year.

  24. twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:47 am

    And Stark has presented a compelling case for Trout. I suspect Miggy will win it and I’d have no problem with that. But it’s a fair topic for debate and there is no right or wrong. And while one can dismiss WAR as a factor because of a problem with how defense is measured, one cannot dsispute that in two key facets of the game Trout is clearly superior- defense and baserunning. however it’s measurted-or just eye balled.
    BTW, I highly doubt that MVP voters don’t understand WAR and peripheral stats.

    • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:58 am

      WAR is not that difficult of a stat to compute, I wasn’t suggesting that they don’t understand the definition of the stat or how to compute them. I meant that it is a stat they don’t understand how to use as a tool to judge a player’s season. When you get past the *replacement player thing* (and even that is pretty vague–how can you say for certain that Trout is exactly 10 games more productive than some faceless minor leaguer?) you get into a lot of generalities in terms of how it’s weighted, how it translates to the field and what you see with your own eyes, etc).
      And I do feel strongly that they must pay more attention to the stat than they want to because of the pressure about WAR being this amazing, all encompassing stat. They don’t want to only consider concrete, known numbers like HR’s, RBI’s, BA, etc. But in the end of the analysis, that’s all that’s really *known* about what a player produced over the course of a season unless you can tell me with statistical certainty that Trout is worth exactly 10 more wins in a season than someone picked off the triple A pile…..

      • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:03 am

        There’s a helluva lot more than WAR to support Trout for MVP. I think you should be able to acknowledge it’s a reasonable debate.

      • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:05 am

        I don’t think it’s a close race but I do think WAR should and can be one of the metrics to consider. But I just don’t consider it that highly for the reasons I’ve listed. It’s a fine topic to debate, though.

  25. unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:50 am

    War. Oooh. Good God, y’all. What is it good for?

    Absolutely nothing.

    • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:54 am

      I understand that you don’t understand WAR. Can you figger out that Trout is better defensively and running the bases than Miggy is WITHOUT using WAR? Or do you doubt that?

      • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:02 am

        obviously he’s better at those two things than MIggy. When it comes to a baseball player as MVP, for me, it’s about 2 things: how much offense did you produce (both in terms of runs produced with your bat and number of times you got on base to be driven in) and did your team make the playoffs.

    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:55 am

      Say it again, y’all.

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:01 am

      Good one, Chuck.

      • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:07 am

        Incisive commentary, indeed.Oooooooooh.

    • unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:30 pm

      It’s a fucking song, Mike. Don’t you remember? This is your era.

  26. Salty said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:53 am

    just for the helluva it…Took a look at the AL MVP race in 2001. Ichiro won both the ROY and MVP that year beating out Jason Giambi, who had pretty strong numbers across the board, (.342/38/120), an 8.8 war to Ichiro’s 7.5 and Oak made the playoffs. Ichiro hit .356 and stole 56 bases and Seattle won 116 games.

    • eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:03 pm

      cool. thanx

  27. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Another thing to consider about the MVP vote–if you consider that runs produced and putting yourself in position to be driven in is important then you have to consider Trout’s 49 sb’s as huge. MIggy had 40 doubles but no triples and 4 sbs– Trout had 27 doubles, 8 triples and 49 steals (I’m not sure how many times he stole 3rd, but he was obviously putting himself in position to be driven in many more times than Miggy)–
    And Trout’s place in the order didn’t allow for him to have the chance to drive in runs like Miggy’s…..
    And Trout couldn’t control what Pujols did with the bat once he was on 2nd base…..
    I just feel like Miggy had a more direct impact on run production than Trout, and that’s important to me if I had a vote…….

  28. blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:24 am

    What Macdog said regarding Trout, bears repeating, “Another argument on Trout’s behalf: His team finished with a better record.”

    This is related to what Stark said as well:

    “And then there’s this: When Mike Trout walked through the Angels’ clubhouse door for the first time on April 28, they were 6-14 and tied for the second-worst record in baseball. Since that day, they own the BEST record in the American League (82-57). That’s not a coincidence. That’s what happens when an MVP is allowed to do his thing.”

    He missed almost an entire month of the season before the GM or someone else in the dysfunctional Angels upper management/ownership probably said, “Hello? We have this player in the minors that has NOTHING left to prove there, while we languish in last place with two has beens (Abreau and Wells) in the outfield. Get a clue and promote this guy.”

  29. demp28 said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:30 am

    We all know how special 2010 was, but what about this year? Consider:
    After a devastating injury, Buster comes back with a vengeance and wins the batting title. First by a Giant since Barry in 2004, but I think this one is more deserving. And earned.
    Pagan led the NL in triples. Last Giant to do that: The Say Hey Kid in 1957.
    Giants led the league in Sacrifice Flies.
    Bochy stressed the need to play better on the road. Check. 26-11 after the AS break. That will come in handy during the postseason.
    Cain-saw throws the Giants first ever perfect game.

    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:38 am

      Thanks for sharing Demp . . . Willie was unbelievable in triples that year (’57), with 20. He also accumulated 13 twice while in NY, with his high water mark in SF being 12 and Pagan broke that SF record (as we all know with 15).

  30. demp28 said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Cain starts and is winning pitcher in ASG.
    Melky gets MVP of ASG.
    Sabean pulls off biggest trade of season in getting Scutaro.
    Buster will be named NL MVP, which leads me to a question: Who is the face of the franchise now?
    Lincecum, Cain or Buster?

    • willedav said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:38 am

      Demp, if Lincecum were to f it up in a playoff start or two, I’m hoping he’s the face of someone else’s franchise.

      • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:47 am

        Good line willedav – me too. Actually, regardless of how he does, I am hoping we can parlay his ass for mucho draft choices via the Yankmees, Blow Sox, or another brain dead “money can buy anything” franchise.

      • snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:42 pm

        Blade, they can’t trade Tim for picks. Not allowed in MLB. Can only trade him for bodies. If they lose him as a FA in offseason after 2013, I guess they get some compensatory pick(s), but with the new CBA, they changed some rules on that, so I don’t know what they’d get. My guess would be they’d hopefully have a revitalized Tim doing well through next June, maybe not the old Tim, but a better than this year Tim, and they’d trade him before the deadline somewhere for a couple of worthwhile bodies, maybe a promising minor league starter and an OFer. They need solid minor league starting pitching prospects, big time…

      • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:51 pm

        snarkk nailed it before I could…you cannot trade for picks. And really, with the draft beind such a crapshoot, not sure you would want picks. Even if Tim does very good in the playoffs, I just don’t see a trade as realistic. Seriously, with his 2012 year, regardless of how well he might do in the post-season, who in their right mind is going to take on his 22.5 mil?

        I think the scenario that snarkk paints (doing well through June) is more viable (and the team would be taking on only half of that 22.5 mil.

        I am not holding my breath on this one…time will tell.

      • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:54 pm

        OK . . . But get something for him before his contract runs out next season. My point is two-fold: 1. No way, no how, he recaptures his Cy Young greatness. That train has left the station; and, 2. Fortunately, as I pointed out in my earlier post, there are a plethora of idiot franchises, with the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Tigers, Marlins, and this year, my favorite, the Dodgers, who will pay for Lincecum 2.0, regardless of cost . . .

      • eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:55 pm

        this is why I doubt myself so much. My brain fills in the blanks. I read what he said, draft picks, and converted them to what they should be: minor leaguers.

      • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:03 pm

        Draft choices, minor leaguers, major leaguers, etc., that’s all minutia in with what I was talking about. Get a frickin’ bag of balls, a couple of bats, and Bobby Valentine as a Japanese scout for all I care . . . Just get something before the clock fucking runs out. Lincecum is a number 3 pitcher at best after this season.

      • snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 3:16 pm

        I seriously think that Tim will end up in Seattle someday. When, who knows? He likes the cool weather. I think he’s comfortable up there near home, and that lifestyle. Even if somebody like NY or Boston traded for him, I doubt he’d want to stay around those crazy franchises…

  31. willedav said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:35 am

    I think first you have to define what the *MVP* means to you, which of course is different for everyone. I thought Kemp deserved it last year, in spite of what his team did, compared to fed ex guy. Imo he was a little better at everything except long ball pop, and the fact he was surrounded by mediocrity made him more valuable, not less, because his job (doing whatever he could to get his team to win) was harder.
    Lead off guys are always going to put up different numbers than middle order power guys. Trout, no question, is the more talented once you factor in speed and defense. That would mean to me he could do more things to help his team win (and did), which would be a pretty high “value” to me. You could pitch around Mig and it might not hurt you; walk Trout and he could still cost you a run, and he’s going to save more runs with his defense in the field. If I could pick only one of them to be on my team, it would be Trout.

  32. twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 11:41 am

    Well, I just meant to introduce an intelligent opinion supporting Trout (Stark). As far as WAR, it’s hardly the only stat that relies on factors that are not esaily measured or rely on some degree of subjectivity. But I’m out for awhile.

  33. eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    I love all this talk about that other league. No one has mentioned any opponent for Buster. Yet, he _maynot_ win. Yadier has had a good year both defense and offense. Beltre? ignore the steroids guy?

  34. snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    I pay almost no attention to the AL. I don’t like the DH, I don’t like the football scores, I don’t like the 4 hour games. With that caveat, I’d go with Cabrera for MVP. Trout is deserving, and is the better all around player, but the award isn’t defined for whoever is the better all around player. I give EZ bonus points for helping your club into the playoffs; and being the first Triple Crown dude since Yaz cements the thing. They gave the Hawk the MVP years ago on a last place Cubs squad, so I don’t see how Cabrera cannot be the MVP with all his bona fides this season. You cannot overlook a triple crown as just some statistical oddity. That is some serious ass mashing, and for a division winner, too…

  35. unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    It’s a fucking song, Mike. Don’t you remember? This is your era.

    • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:04 pm

      Chuck, we know you fuck the numbers anyway.

      • unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:15 pm

        And you have no sense of humor . . .

    • eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:21 pm

      you guys had fucking songs?
      anything but Led Zep I suppose?

  36. snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    There are some cool vids on a former “good Giant”, Omar Vizquel, and his last game after 24 MLB seasons.
    He got a single in his last AB, made a cool over the shoulder basket catch on a pop, and nicely got taken out of the game in the 9th from SS, to a farewell, standing O by everyone. Class act, and no doubt someday a HOFer. Too bad he played on such POS Giant teams while he was here….

    • chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:08 pm


    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:08 pm

      My favorite Giants shortstop after Speier and Aurilia.

      • snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 3:09 pm

        I liked Omar, he sure did pick it for the 4 years here. But, I somehow felt he never really fit in as a Giant, maybe because the teams around him were POS. He just seemed above the fray to me, somehow. Maybe that’s just me. Not a knock on him whatsoever, BTW. Some say he might be a manager someday. Now LeMaster, he fit right in to those crap teams of the ’70s. He could pick it pretty well, not as well as Omar, but his lousy hitting fit those teams for sure. Crawford hovering around .250 is Gold compare to Boo (career .222)…

  37. twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    Posey, shockingly. leads Giants’ players in WAR at 8.0. Pagan is second at 4.7. It drops off big time past those two.

    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:05 pm

      I’m curious Twin . . . (I guess I could look it up myself in baseball reference), but what is Scutaro? Is there a breakdown after he joined us?

      • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:06 pm

        By “breakdown,” I mean what his WAR was after the trade?

  38. chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    Thanks for the Omar video, snarkk. Awesome video. Always liked Omar even before he donned the Orange and Black. Kindled a couple of memories that I wanted to share:

    It was Omar’s final year with the Giants and my daughter and I were sitting along 3rd, lower box (one of our favorite places to sit at games). The Giants were doing pre-game stretches. I think Omar could sense we were looking at him intently. It was my daughter’s BD, and given that she played SS, she always loved Omar and wanted a picture with him. Sure enough, once he finished, he strode over, and let me snap a picture of him and Jessi. Next year (when he was with the Rangers), we went to a Giant-Ranger game in Suprise (where the Royals and Rangers play), and we were hanging out pre-game along the baselines. I think he saw our Giant jerseys and came over to say hi. Awesome memories. Certainly a 1st ballot HOFer. He is the epitome of class.

  39. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    His WAR with SF was 2.1.
    So that means that he is worth 2 wins more, over the course of the year to the Giants, than if BUrriss had played for him instead.
    And that is just a joke, IMO……

    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:16 pm

      Yeah, I agree . . . It seemed like he played a key role for 2 wins every week he was fucking here.

      • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:23 pm

        another way to look at it is that as good as we know Scutaro to have been for us Mike Trout is considered 5 times better.
        But that’s what I mean, it’s too subjective to wrap your brain around it. We are *told* that a 10.4 WAR is this amazing number and told what it means. It’s just hard to really turn into anything.
        Now, when you lead the league in HR’s, batting average and RBI’s it isn’t too hard to translate how awesome of a season he had, at least at the plate…..

      • unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 2:03 pm

        But how many of those HRs/hits/RBIs were crunch time numbers? Even those numbers can be spun a bit.

        Which is why Scutaro seemed to be so frigging good. Every hit seemed to drive in the tying or go-ahead run.

    • snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:38 pm

      That stat on Scutaro just doesn’t make sense. He hit something like .360 as a Giant, and was crucial, maybe the most crucial player, to the squad winning the last 6 weeks of the stretch. He was constantly driving in runs in key situations, picking guys up with a 2 out RBI single or double, great ABs all the time, whatever. His double down the RF line the other night in LA sealed that win, and made Mattingly pay for dissing him with that IntWalk to Pagan. Being worth 2 more games over the season than Burriss is just ludicrous…

  40. eddacker said, on October 4, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    maybe that 2.1 WAR is per week?

    • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 2:40 pm

      no, it’s for the season.

      • Macdog said, on October 4, 2012 at 3:07 pm

        Maybe Donnie Baseball looked at Marco’s WAR when he intentionally walked Pagan to face Scutaro the other night.

      • snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 3:26 pm

        I would like to have seen what the LA scouting reports said about Scutaro…

      • unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 4:19 pm

        Donnie said: “War. Uhh. Good God y’all. What is it good for?”

  41. chipower9 said, on October 4, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    Michael – I finally got around to reading the article you posted the link for on steroids. Excellent read. Thanks for sharing.

  42. snarkk said, on October 4, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Valentine fired today. BoSox didn’t wait long.
    Nah, never could have predicted that wouldn’t work out.
    He’s a clown. But, its probably not all his fault. Essentially they made him accept a holdover coaching staff, he’d didn’t get to hire his own. So, he didn’t get along with his coaches, let alone the players. Result: chaos. Do I care? Yeah, a little. It shows what harebrained people can be in ownership and front offices….

  43. unca_chuck said, on October 4, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Schill(ing) was berating Valentine for throwing his coaches under the bus. Saying they will be irreparably damaged by Bobby’s comments of backstabbing him. I didn’t know he had to keep them from the last regime.

    Still and all, I don’t think any of those coaches will be hurt by it. All they have to say is “It was Bobby Valentine, for Christ’s sake.”

    • Nipper said, on October 4, 2012 at 4:41 pm


  44. blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Spot on Chuck regarding Schill(ing), since he will do anything for money. I call him Mr. Blowhard or Mr. Hypocrite . . . A, B, and/or C works in regard to this despicable person. There are approximately a dozen notations at his Wikipedia site on conflicts he has had with players, individuals, governments, etc.

    The two I recall involved him covering his head with a towel while Mitch Williams was pitching in the 1993 World Series; and, more recently, the vocal Anti-Government Republican for accepting a loan from the State of Rhode Island, which ended up costing them $112.6 million in moral obligation bond payments in the wake of his collapsed video game company. Schilling has been clear about his rage against big government and the value he places on individual responsibility.

    In the former case, Schilling was publicly criticized by Phillies teammates Mitch Williams, Larry Andersen, and Danny Jackson for his conduct. In the latter case, Mr. Hypocrite declared bankruptcy, so there was a form of justice in play there. Now he can implement his own advice on what he once stated during an interview, “There can be no question our country is in the worst economic crisis of our lifetimes. …[I]t falls on us, the individuals, to find a way out of our own personal crisis,” HAHAHA punk ass pussy.

    • Bozo said, on October 4, 2012 at 5:46 pm

      I think I saw something that said he’s thinking of selling the bloody sock.

  45. Sierra Nevada said, on October 4, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    LOOOONG time gone…been just too dadblamed busy. Kids.

    So, to business: Miggy v. Trout.

    I say Trout is the MVP of the AL. Hands down. Defense and baserunning matter. The triple crown is a big deal if you give a crap about RBI, which as a evaluation stat I don’t.

    The bottom line is: Miggy is a great DH-in-waiting. Trout had a second-coming-of-Mays year.

    Hands freaking down.

  46. twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    One of the problems with understanding WAR is that most people have an extremely inflated idea of how much any indidvual player is worth in the first place. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard that a player won a game single handedly-which has actually never happened ever.Where most people have a problem with WAR is the “:replacement level” concept. There is a very detailed explanation of it at Baseball Reference which most observers trust on other matters.
    But rather than get all panty-bunched, as Craig might say,.over the actual number, how much can one disagree that the top players by WAR really are the best players…
    WAR leaders:
    Baseball Reference explanation of WAR:

  47. blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    I’m already missing the baseball season, albeit, the playoffs are around the corner and our Giants are in them.

    However, I am also missing Fantasy League baseball (FLB) . . . I know some of you criticize it, but I would imagine for Flav, as well as Ed – especially in lieu of him winning the Flap league – this is almost like going cold turkey on Heroin or cigarettes.

    For myself, Fantasy League baseball provides a slice of work-free and responsibility-free time in my schedule. Yes, I am retired, but FLB is especially a welcome activity for me because I do have other responsibilities that have to be done and FLB allows me to recharge my batteries by doing something that I enjoy (versus something I have to do). Perhaps for Flav, Ed or one of you who participate in FLB, you might feel overwhelmed by responsibility, and it may be difficult to find the time or give themselves permission to take a break from a busy schedule and just sit and relax. Engaging in FLB or another hobby (such as blogging on the Flap), however, can provide a break with a purpose, which can help people feel that they’re not just sitting around, but are using their down time for something productive. Either way, FLB provides me a nice break daily in a busy week. FLB, the Flap, and baseball in general, brings me a sense of fun and freedom to life that can help to minimize the impact of chronic stress in this crazy world we live in. Same thing goes with exercise – which I do religiously. Again, I don’t work, but for those who feel overwhelmed at a job, for example, can benefit from watching a baseball game, blogging here, or playing FLB because it provides an outlet for stress, and something to look forward to after a hard day (or week) at a stressful job.

    Finally, FLB is an outlet that connects me with others and anyone who knows anything about the benefit of “social support,” understands that these types of hobbies can bring stress relief and meaning to life in a fun way. The friends you have fun with in FLB can become some of your best friends. Flav, Dirt, Pawlie, Peter, Kevin, Dennis, Ed, Clown, Chuck, Ferret – all of you I consider as friends and are well worth my time!

    Same thing applies for the people who blog here – snarkk, Twin, AlleyKat, Paulinasia, sierra nevada, demp, Ted, Chi, Nipper, Zumiee, ewisco . . . Shit, you all know who you are (I apologize for leaving anyone out). I love this place and even when I don’t post, I am here in spirit. Wow! What a deal the game of baseball is, huh?


  48. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Blade– today has sucked from the standpoint of no fantasy league baseball to check on. No line ups to set. No waiver wire to raid. It always takes me a few days to let it go, to stop checking the box scores on my phone, to stop checking the updated standings, etc. I am in 2 fantasy football leagues that I could give a shit about, it’s just not the same as baseball……..

    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:10 pm

      Flav, I turned down 2 invites for Fantasy League football for the reason you cited – I could give a shit about it. Besides that, once a week (perhaps twice, three times) activity in evaluating players, benching players, etc., is boring. Couple that with the injury factor, I decided that I would take a break from it.

      I really enjoyed setting my baseball lineup(s) in the morning, while having coffee . . . That’s gone until next season. God forbid if the Gmen get tossed by Cincy in the 1st round of the playoffs. I will be insufferable.

  49. sandy32koufax said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    Hey Jints fans…congratulations and good luck in the playoffs.

    Michael, Blade, zumie and flav, you were some good guys and thanks for that, sfdf is outta here…

    • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:04 pm

      stop being such a pussy and post here more often. 🙂

      • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:05 pm

        lol . . . Agree, we could use more of the alternative view here.

    • blade3colorado said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:04 pm

      Good to hear from you Sandy. Hope you are well my man 🙂

  50. Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Twin, responding to your question about the WAR list and how everyone on that first page are the *best players*. There are many of the best players on there for sure. But my issue with WAR is more related to the *lower numbers*.
    Ben Revere next to Jeter? 3.4 >3.3. Absurd. And Ben Revere has what is considered to be the WORST ARM in the American League. So I’m not sure how his defense is getting factored in here. Jeter was infinitely more valuable than Revere this year.
    Michael Brantley at 2.8 along with Hanley, Cargo and Teixeira? (and all 4 above Scutaro who is at 2.6). MIchael Brantley sucks.
    Curtis Granderson at 2.5 > Cam Maybin at 2.4
    Granderson: 43 bombs, 106 RBI’s, 102 runs, 10sb’s
    Maybin: 8 HR’s, 45 rbi’s, 67 rbi’s, 26sb’s….
    I don’t give a shit about their defense, Granderson should not have basically the same WAR score as Maybin and it’s this type of stuff that makes me think very unkindly towards the value of WAR
    There are countless examples like this on the 5 pages of the WAR link that Twin provided. Again, I’m not saying WAR is a worthless number to assess a player, it clearly has value. Just not much fantasy value and there are too many oddities (as I’ve listed here) to take it seriously………
    Saberstats are great but they need to be taken in context. New stats are basically unknown in terms of their longevity but people love them because they’re, well, new. Makes people feel like they’re ahead of the curve or something. Same thing happened in horse racing when Beyer figs came out. And look what happened to those, they are antiquated now……

    • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:03 pm

      or put another way, do you think Cashman would be making a lateral trade if he traded GrandyMan for Maybin straight up right now and inserted him into the playoff line up (assuming such a trade would be allowed). Can you imagine how quickly he would get murdered by a crazed NY fan if he did this……..

    • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:10 pm

      I understand having an issue with WAR. It’s an extremely complicated stat to figure. Joe Posnanski has a fun little exercise to figure how many games your team should win above replacement- with the full replacement team at 52-100. These are guys with a 0.00 WAR. Add up the total WAR of your team and add that number to the 52. He says the Giants should have been 101-61 based on the total WAR ( this includes pitchers WAR )..
      Here’s what Stark says about WAR;
      “.It’s not perfect, but it’s far from subjective. I swapped several emails with Sean Forman of baseball-reference.com this week. And the formula for WAR is exhaustive. It really is a serious attempt to measure everything that goes on in every game. So I don’t see it as a magic formula. But it’s extremely revealing. And anyone who doesn’t see that is way too close-minded about modern metrics
      Look, WAR is complicated. I get that. Anyone can add up RBIs and understand exactly what they are and where they come from. Very few people understand how WAR is computed. So I get why some people don’t want to accept it. But to dump on it and act like it’s bogus is absurd. It may be one of the most complicated stats ever, but it’s also one of the most revealing”
      I’ll stress that I do NOT know to calcaluate it but I respect the people like Tango who do.

      • Flavor said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:14 pm

        I added a little to my last post and now I have to hit the sack. Nothing major but I just wanted you to know since your post came out after the one you read that I wrote (pre-add). Now I have to go, so I’ll resume the WAR-discussion later.
        I like talking about it, I am not dismissing it, and I get why people are committed to it. I just have my own personal issues with it that I’ve tried to respectfully convey today. Not sure if I succeeded in that……….

      • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:27 pm

        I never took anything you said as out of line. Anyway, I’m trying to figure out my playoff eve post and I have one sentence done since 2 this afternoon. As a writer, I’m giving Pawlie a 12 above replacement (me)

      • twinfan1 said, on October 4, 2012 at 9:42 pm

        BTW, if one puts little stock in the defensive numbers, WAR will never be popular. Granderson takes a huge hit because of his defense.His hiting value is well above Maybin’s of course.
        Another BTW: 10 runs above replacement is the accepted number that equates to one win, as per WAR ( very simplified).Posey’s WAR, for example, represents 77 runs better than replacement.

  51. ewisco said, on October 4, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    I’m not much of a saberatician but i do know this: 94 wins!

    ‘night knuckleheads.

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