A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Take the Vote Away from the Writers

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 9, 2013

Everyone who had a vote in the hall of fame’s preposterous charade of a election proved their incompetence today. What exactly qualifies these guys to decide who is worthy of the hall of fame anyway? Because they wrote about baseball for at least 10 years? That’s an absurd, arbitrary qualification.

The Hall of Fame is run by private interests. Who ever these interests are state very clearly in their *Rules for Election* :

“1. Authorization: By authorization of the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc., the Baseball Writers’ Association of America (BBWAA) is authorized to hold an election every year for the purpose of electing members to the National Baseball Hall of Fame from the ranks of retired baseball players.” THEY are authorizing the BBWAA to hold the election. They could just as easily *un-authorize* it and hand the task to more deserving, competent voters.

It’s crystal clear that the voting process is flawed and has been for some time. And for whatever reason, this current collection of writers sees themselves as some sort of reincarnation of Captain Queeg. The voters are the product of deindividuation, morphing into an incompetent entity that has delivered a serious blow to the credibility of those actually IN the hall of fame. It’s time for a change in who is responsible for the voting process.

My idea is simple: hand the votes over to the players who have served at least 6 years of service at the big league level. If they attained free agency, they get a vote for up to 10 years after they retire. That will *keep the line moving* with a variety of voters as well as always maintaining a connection between the voters and the players they are voting for.

I’m certainly more confident in a vote from a guy who played at the mlb level for 6+ years over some *keyboard jockey* who is imposing the will of his personal imprint into a museum he couldn’t have hoped to influence as an actual athlete.

128 Responses

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  1. wswin said, on January 9, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    If a players name appears on the ballot, the vote should reflect his performance on the field of play and nothing else.
    Rose’s name is banned from the game so he doesn’t apppear on the ballot.

    • wswin said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:03 pm

      I’m so livid at the results of this vote. The commisioner cleans the game, not the writers

  2. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    I’ve put up a new post on my blog,”Accept steroid use in sports? For and against” A debate was held in 2008 at the Asia Society and Museum in New York City and moderated by longtime sportscaster Bob Costas, who hosts NBCs Football Night in America and HBOs Inside the NFL. I’ve tried to give an unbiased pro and con. No droolers on either side..

    Among those for the proposal:

    *Norman Fost, MD, MPH, earned his medical degree from Yale University and completed his residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital. He founded the Bioethics Program and the Child Protection Team at the University of Wisconsin in 1973.

    *Radley Balko, a senior editor and investigative journalist for Reason magazine.

    *Richard Pound, chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a partner in the Canadian law firm Stikeman Elliott.

    *George Michael, a sportscaster and creator of the program Sports Machine.

    This is not an easy read. But worth a look, IMO.


  3. Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Dear Mr. Selig,
    It has come to my attention today, by the BBWAA, that I was sold inferior goods following the 1994 baseball strike season (and possibly as early as 1988). Like many fans, I was drawn in to your product by what I thought was stellar play on the field. After your baseball strike of 1994, I was duped again by the homerun ball being played which fully manifested itself during the home run chase of 1997. I’ve been informed that the product on the field was a lemon and that I had been duped by MLB. I have documentation for thousands and thousands of dollars spent during this period and I’d like it back. I can not prove dollars spent buying beverages, food and miscellaneous items during these tainted events you produced, so you may keep those monies.
    Thank you in advance.

    PS. Please consider my payment before these other folks who built stadiums through tax payer money, I’ve been told they were duped as well. Have a nice day.

    • blade3colorado said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:37 pm

      LMFAO. Good one clown.

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:50 pm

      Hey, chicks dig the long ball. Whatareyagonnado?

  4. blade3colorado said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    So, this is what will happen annually? Jack fucking Morris and his ilk will be the top vote getters? Unfrickingbelievable. Pfffffft!


  5. Chico said, on January 9, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    From a former teammate of Aaron’s.


  6. chipower9 said, on January 9, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    Your final paragraph:

    “I’m certainly more confident in a vote from a guy who played at the mlb level for 6+ years over some *keyboard jockey* who is imposing the will of his personal imprint into a museum he couldn’t have hoped to influence as an actual athlete.”

    Just about says it all. LMAO. Hey, your suggestion can’t be any worse than what we are getting from the dumbass BBWAA…

  7. blade3colorado said, on January 9, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    New post, “What Will I Forget On My RTW Trip?” on my blog . . .


  8. Macdog said, on January 9, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    This is an outrage. How did Aaron Sele get a vote but not Royce Clayton?

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 3:47 pm

      I share your pain, Mac.

    • snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 4:38 pm

      The clown vote from the esteemed BBWAA, no affront to our Bozo intended. No doubt there are more clown votes in the results. How can this be taken seriously anymore? That Tom House article from 2005 is an eye opener. Dudes, per him, were using ‘roids in the ’60s and ’70s. Surprising? NO. The extent he says, YES. I’ve been to the HOF, it is a cool place. The memorabilia, the history, the little town, it’s all great. They now surely have tons of Bonds goodies displayed. But, he won’t be enshrined for a while, if ever. Because I love ball so much, and the history of it, this whole thing makes me want to wretch. On the front steps of the HOF…

  9. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 3:39 pm

    The Dietary Supplements Health and Education Act (DSHEA) was passed in 1994.Previously, a maker had to prove the supplement’s safety. After the Act passed, the FDA had to prove that a supplement was unsafe. A 27 bllion dollar supplement industry was born overnight. Teams began importing completely legal weightlifting and dietary aids. Among them was Androstenedione-or andro. It was available in every clubhouse. As former Mets general manager Steve Phillips said, “I’m hired to win ballgames and if other teams are doing it, I want my players doing it too.”
    But steroids were just part of a multi-prong solution to the dinger problem. The new ballparks are mostly what Zirin characterizes as “roughly the size of Rush Limbaugh’s bathtub”. Harder bats, tighter balls, tiny foul ball ball territories, technology, the loss of the high strike, and more- there was a concerted effort led by the owners to make the game “chick ball”… and it worked, the lowliest of the low are making millions a year.
    It’s a huge and complicated issue but keeping the ‘roiders out of the Hall for doing what the owners and MLB *wanted* them to do is simply wrong. As one player said: “It’s crazy that punishment is an individual issue but distribution has always been a team issue.”

  10. Nipper said, on January 9, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    BLEEP to this latest vote. BLEEP!

    • eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:07 am

      fuck, double fuck

  11. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    Sorry, but I totally disagree that ballplayers should do the voting. The problem is there are simply too many writers who have no business voting. As the Sporting News writer and voter Anthony Witrado says
    “some voting members of the BBWAA haven’t stepped a single foot inside a ballpark or clubhouse for years and haven’t written a word about the sport in just as long. Some voters are retired from the business of sports journalism. Others have no other outlet to express themselves beyond a blog, a vehicle that the BBWAA has said is unworthy of inclusion. Other voters go decades without even working in sports but still are considered qualified to vote. They are grandfathered in and don’t pay any attention to what is happening in the game until December when the Hall of Fame ballot is due. ”
    But I’m FAR more confident in having the Jenkins’, the Schulmans, the Baggarlys, hell most of the Blog Alliance, over the jocks any ole day. There are probably 10 guys on this blog alone more informed on the game and it’s players than the vast majority of players are.
    I’m submitting Bozo, Pawlie, and Blade as next year’s voters from the Flap. You’ll all get your chance. Oh, and Craig next year, too. Have to include the flap boss. I’ll tell you all who to vote for later 😉 James will make final approval based on cumulative WAR numbers and Chuck suggest we…wait for it….FUCK THE NUMBERS!!

    • blade3colorado said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:04 pm

      I would gladly take Glen Dickey’s place. Mike, you mentioned that he still is allowed to vote?????

      • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:20 pm

        Yes, he’s a voter. And I’m giving you his place. He’s getting the sommelier gig at the Olive Garden in Vacaville.

      • blade3colorado said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:29 pm

        LOL. Thanks . . . A win win situation. I get his gig and I know where he works, so I can avoid him and his smarmy attitude, while he sniffs and serves Mad dog or whatever they’re serving at Olive Garden these days.

  12. snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    ChiP — your BBOTD honey is BACK!!!

    • Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 4:53 pm

      yep, threw him a bone. And now he doesn’t even check it out? Outrageous….. 🙂 🙂 🙂

      • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:08 am

        WTF…I missed the boat! Long day yesterday…American Legion Riders meeting last night…got home late and didn’t even sniff the computer. DOH!

        Are you talking about the beauty sitting in the surf? If so…DAMMIT, DAMMIT, DAMMIT…she is my all-time favorite. Something about her…classic beauty…

        BF Shady – I DO appreciate your generosity…even if my dumb-ass missed it!

  13. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Ballplayers make perfect sense to do the voting. They knew elite when they played against it. And if they get caught up in the morality clause then so be it. But I’d go with their votes before I’d go with the stat-hounds.
    Analyzing numbers has gotten way to far out there. There are countless internet writers who are WAY more versed in statistics than Bruce Freaking Jenkins. If that’s the criteria, why don’t we just let the fangraph writers vote these guys in? Shit, I would qualify if those are the guys who should be doing it.
    Ex-ballplayers know shit that NONE of us couch potatoes know: who the best players were that they played against year in and year out. They don’t need to know their WAR number or their OPS. When they hear the cat’s name they go, “Now THAT’S a hall of famer.”
    Those are the guys I want voting, not a bunch of number crunchers who play fantasy baseball all day long…….

    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:10 am

      Agree…anyone but the fucking BBWAA assholes.

  14. Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    Dear Mr. Selig,
    As an addendum to my previous letter, please note, I have it on good authority that your Hall has been mired in muck and shit. As a recent flood victim, please allow me to direct you to the contractors who raised my house above the slime. As was in my experience, the Hall may not end up to be level but as we both know, it never has been. Please contact me with a request for my contractor’s number and per my original letter, monies owed.
    Once again, have a nice day (insert smiley face here).

    • Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:23 pm

      Hey Bud,
      It’s your old pal Bozo again. I’m a little concerned why I haven’t heard from you yet. Are you on vacation?
      Let me know what’s going on, OK pal.

      • Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:27 pm

        Hey Dickwad, where the fuck are you. This is getting a bit fucked up. Pay me Asswipe.
        Suck my dick.
        A pissed off Clown is not a good game plan.

      • Bozo said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:33 pm

        From the Offices of Snarkk, Xoot and Fuck You.
        Dear Mr. Selig,
        Our client, Bozo the Clown has tried to contact you on monies owed. Your continued silence will be be considered as a breach of your contract with our client. If you, or your lawyer(s) are not in contact with us at the end of the day, we will be forced to sue under the Lemon law.
        Best regards.
        Snarkk, Xoot and Fuck You.

      • blade3colorado said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:06 pm

        Hilarious John. 🙂

      • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:12 am

        LMAO…good luck with that lawsuit, bro. Take the fuckers for every dime they own…

  15. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    They’d have to at least pass a baseball version of something like a Wonderlic. Like “Have you ever heard of Rogers Hornsby?”
    “Who wins-the team with the most wins or the team who wins the most innings?”
    Seriously, I’d go for maybe 12 players who WOULD have to pass a test like that, 12 writers, 12 broadcsters, 12 HOFers, 12 stat geeks… something like that.
    The HOF is ALL about numbers.

    • James said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:05 pm

      The 12 stat geeks are all you need.

      • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:31 pm

        The stat geeks may not have voted in all of my choices, but Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Bagwell, Raines would have all been geek locks. The players? Who knows? But since they all pretend to be non-users, none of the Unholy Three get in. Biggio, Bagwell, Raines? Whose wife has the best rack?

  16. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:38 pm

    Twin, it’s been *all about the numbers* because the voters have made it so. It’s caused the Hall to be more exclusionary than anything else.
    I’d be surprised if 600+ ballplayers who had 6+ years service would pass up Dale Murphy for the hall of fame. Who knows, they’ve never gotten to vote on him. But I think his era of players would hand-wave him through with both hands……..

  17. snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:40 pm

    BF, you and your baseball blog running brethren can/must start a new on-line baseball HOF. The OLB-HOF. My recommendations:

    1. Voters must prove they’re qualified. You guys can come up with some qualifications, knowledge base being one. Voting age is the only other requirement. Minimum 1000 voters, maximum 2000.
    2. Members of the online HOF will be elected on baseball performance criteria only. Proven, admitted, or suspected use or non use of PEDs, tobacco, illegal drugs, legal drugs, Pez dispensers, bubble gum, booze, loose women, Geritol, or anything else is IRRELEVANT. Betting is irrelevant. So, Pete gets on the ballot.
    3. Assholiness or sainted behavior is also IRRELEVANT, as is media relationships, or lack thereof.
    4. If convicted of Murder, the player is not eligible. Otherwise, you’re eligible if you played in MLB or the Negro Leagues based on minimum, reasonable statistical qualification and years played criteria that BF and his committee heads come up with.
    5. The inaugural on-line HOF class will be constructed of 36 players. 4 players each for the 9 positions. DH is not a position. Players selected can be from any era of MLB and the Negro Leagues. The inaugural ballot will have 180 eligible players on it, 20 players each for each position. The eligible players will be selected by the on-line HOF Committee.
    6. To be elected to the inaugural HOF class, the top 4 vote getters in each position are elected.
    7. Subsequent years for a decade, 18 players each year, 2 at each position, will be elected as new HOF members. Elected players must be the top 2 vote getters at each position. Again, 180 players on the ballot, 20 for each position. Players getting less than 9 votes in each of two years running are deleted and replaced with new, eligible players. No write in votes, else the voter is disqualified from voting.
    8. Thereafter, 5 players get in each year. The top 5 vote getters, regardless of position, but minimum of 70% of all votes cast. DH is eligible. Eligibility list reduced to 100.
    9. Managers, owners, broadcasters, umps and other non-players are ineligible for this on-line HOF. They are subject to getting into the Non-player wing of the on-line baseball HOF, with different election rules TBD.
    10. Any of the above rules can be changed at any time by majority vote of the OLB-HOF executive committee…

    After the first 10 years of the on-line HOF, there will be 216 players in it…

    • snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:55 pm

      And, we need to figure out a way to make money off of this… 😉

      • Nipper said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:04 pm

        Snarkk thinking about his pocketbook is very pragmatic!

      • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:16 am

        I like the way you think. And I also agree whole-heartedly…”DH is not a position.” I know that one will piss-off Nipper… 😉

  18. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    I don’t want to argue about this, it’s a stupid thing to argue about. But who knows more about how good Dale Murphy was, the guy who pitched to him or the guy who perseverates on his WAR number in 2013? Who knows more about how good TIm Raines was, the guys who tried in vain to hold him on/throw him out or the dunces who worried about Raines supposed concern with his own steal %? Who knows more about how good Jack Morris was, the hitters who were ruined against him in the playoffs (not counting the ones at the end of his career) or the dooshbags who like to talk up his ERA/win %, etc?
    Listen to the guys who PLAYED against these guys, they know more than you……..

    • Nipper said, on January 9, 2013 at 5:59 pm

      BLEEP the dooshbags!

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:01 pm

      If you don’t want to argue, don’t insult me. The HOF is about numbers because baseball has always been about numbers. Ruth’s 60. Cy Young’s 511. On and and on. Your votes were based on numbers.
      And no, playing has NEVER automatically qualifed a guy to be expert on the game. I DO know more than most players, you do, Bill James does, Nate Silver does, OUR James does. Blade, Bozo, lots of intelligent and veteran fans know far more than your average 6 year vet. As I said- maybe 12 players should be part of the voting- those who can show they actually do have a knowledge of the game, not just proficiency playing it.

    • James said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:08 pm

      Any single winemaker does not “know” more about “wine” than Robert Parker does. Not a perfect analogy of course, but the general argument that those who “create” are always more in the know than those who judge is specious. And, actually, I can easily imagine plenty of contemporaneous players who would disregard Raines’ SB percentage and spout nonsense about how much more “disruptive” a presence Vince Coleman was.

      • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:28 pm

        You are correct of course. And BTW, this had not been an “argument”, it was a perfectly civil and knowledgeable discussion. Calling it an argument is attempting to make it one. Anyway…many players would be perfectly acceptable voters, and many shouldn’t be allowed to vote in my Crawford County pie eating contest. If all 6 years and up vets should have a vote, let it be similar to All-Star voting-they get a portion of the tally. Baseball writers with certain criteria, a group of Bill James type experts, broadcasters, selected current HOFers, and baseball executives could all have ballots, with the weight of each varying. This would take some figgering, that will be handled by those who do that stuff- the figgerers. I’d say 33% players, 33% writers and broadcasters, and, uh, the other “half”, as Yogi might say, by the others. See, I’m not a a figgerer on this-but that’s a draft for reasonable compromise. Maybe Biden can work it out.

      • Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:11 pm

        It’s an analogy that I would expect from you. That’s all I’ll say………

      • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:05 pm

        His analogy makes more sense if one has heard of Robert Parker, of course. It’s a perfect analogy in that it’s absurd to suggest that all individual winemakers are more knowledgeable about oenology than Parker, just as it’s absurd to say that playing baseball automatically makes one more knowledgeable about the game than any baseball writer or historian- or even a knowledgeable and observant fan. They don’t “know more than you”, whoever the fuck “you” is suppposed to be. I’ve even credited Craig with knowing more than the average player-and I’m sure he does. I’m absolutely certain that any beat writer knows TEN times more than all but a handful of players.
        This is a bogus assertion in any field- that those who learn by education, research, study, and observance are less qualified to judge performance than any who practice in the field. That’s an opinion that is completely anti-intellectual and dismissive of education.

  19. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    Here’s the edited debate on whether Steroid use should be allowed in pro sports. It was hosted by Costas, and aired on NPR in 2008. The debate was won by those for the yes on steroids, BTW. In a vote before the debate, 18 percent of audience members supported the motion to accept performance-enhancing drugs in competitive sports, and 63 percent opposed it. Nineteen percent were undecided. After the debate, 37 percent of audience members agreed with the proposition. Fifty-nine percent opposed it, and 4 percent remained undecided.


  20. zumiee said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Who are the ‘sure things’ becoming eligible in the next few years? I was trying to think of some, but i’m usually terrible at pulling those kinds of things out of my baseball memory. Chipper Jones in five years, for sure. Randy Johnson, for sure. Ken Griffey, Jr. Or is he already in?

  21. salty said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:51 pm

    Jeff Kent elig next yr I think

    • Chico said, on January 9, 2013 at 6:58 pm

      I think so too. Now there’s a clean player! 😉

      • Alleykat said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:40 pm

        Well atleast his motorcycle was.

      • snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:55 pm

        Yep, Kent is eligible next year. What if he got in, and Bonds is out? I think Kent would even see the idiocy of that…

  22. James said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    After BF called me one today for the first time since I kicked ass in a game of 21 against a high school bully about 35 years ago, I have to ask: do women still use douche bags?

    • Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:55 pm

      I dunno. But when you get called one, its usually because you are one.

  23. James said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:27 pm

    Another reason Tim Raines deserves to make the HOF: his outstanding numbers were hurt by performance detracting drugs.

    “To avoid leaving the [cocaine] in his locker, Raines carried it in his hip pocket, and slid headfirst when running the bases.”

    • Alleykat said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:42 pm


    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:23 am

      That is too fucking funny…good one, James.

  24. twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    Nitey nite.

  25. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    The lakers are so fabulously fucked. I just watched them miss shot after shot in the 4thq all the while SA giving them opening after opening.
    At the beginning of the year I predicted that the Dubs would end the season with a better record than the Lakers. Looking pretty good so far

  26. Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    Twin, regarding your 6:01, when exactly, did I *insult* you in my 5:45?

    • Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:08 pm

      specifically, what words *insulted* you personally?

      • Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:10 pm

        and forget my 5:45, I’m open to hearing about any posts this pm that *insulted* you…….

  27. paulinasia said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    Who goes to the Hall of Fame? Any of you ever go as adults? I went once, as a starry-eyed 8 year old, when the world and baseball were both pure in my innocent eyes. No one, except kids, can believe that baseball is pure and untainted, because it’s not, just like everything else. For the writers to be trying to “bring back” purity and “integrity” to the game with this vote, it just deepens and extends the denial and hypocrisy and delays any true reckoning that fans really will have to come to terms with about “cheaters” in baseball. If any of those writers ever voted for Bonds as MVP (7 times, no less) or Clemens for the Cy (7 times, no less), then they’re just masturbating their own self-righteous egos and relegating the Hall to a joke. “I was for Bonds/Clemens MVP/Cy Young before I was against them”… “I’m shocked, shocked! to find out there’s cheating in this establishment of baseball”… sheesh.

    • Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:48 pm

      thanks for showing up, I needed a POTD today. This one makes it to the POTD-best of, too.

    • Flavor said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:50 pm

      ha, it’s a month since the last one. And you were the last one. No surprise.

      • paulinasia said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:10 pm

        I’m honored…. pissed off about the topic, but honored…. 🙂

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:15 pm

      Great post, Paul. One of many excellent posts today.

  28. snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 8:50 pm

    Years Games Hits Hits/year OPS BA Runs Hrs RBI MVP?
    15 2034 2143 143 0.810 0.287 1104 282 1141 1
    16 2113 2010 126 0.829 0.279 1024 287 1173 0
    17 2163 2016 119 0.667 0.260 769 138 853 0
    23 2896 2848 124 0.723 0.267 1232 268 1357 1

    2 of these guys are HOFers.
    2 aren’t.

  29. snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:01 pm

    Ken Boyer.
    Bobby Bonilla.
    Bill Mazeroski. HOF
    Brooks Robinson. HOF

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:13 pm

      Maz and Robinson are in in large part for being perhaps the best defenders at their positions in the history of the game. That counts, too.

  30. paulinasia said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    And how does one define “pure”, anyway? When I was 11 years old, I had posters of several baseball players on my wall. One time when my rather puritan Grandmother was visiting, she saw the poster of Denny McClain and said something like, ‘Oh, he’s bad, he drinks, smokes, and gambles’ … my response was a bewildered “Huh? Who cares? He won 31 games! Very cool!” These guys are not our reverends, priests, shamans, rabbis, gurus, or moral compasses; they’re the best at playing the game we love. Even as a child, I knew the difference.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 9, 2013 at 9:42 pm

      The writers didn’t create the standards the HOF promotes. Anytime people are asked to consider “character” as a qualification there are going to be totally subjective opinions on who has it and who doesn’t. I totally disagree that PED users should be left out but as long as they are thought of as cheaters by so many, there will be many from any group of voters who will disqualify them on the character issue. Ballplayers are going to vote PED users in ? When Porky flies they will. Phil Garner had one of his relievers throw at Bonds FOUR times in one AB. Russ Springer is probably still getting fan mail from his contemporaries.
      It might end up being perfect that none of the best group in years got in- what it SHOULD expose are not the voters but the owners who orchestrated an era that has now denied enshrinement to any player who fits a bogus profile of the “typical” user.

    • snarkk said, on January 9, 2013 at 10:58 pm

      The owners, management, MLBPA and players conspired to promote a playing field at minimum tolerant, if not demanding, of PEDs use during the steroid era. The media charged with following the game and the players during that time was complicit in keeping its collective mouth shut. I don’t blame the fans, as many irrationally do, because we were not as close to the game as those charged and paid to witness and chronicle it. Now, for those charged with selecting the best of the lot, to employ PEDs use as a brutal filter to get into the HOF, is not just stupid, it is an act of duplicity in a most vile form. We need a new paradigm of the HOF, else it should be ignored as a meaningless paean to the game we adored in our youth as pure, yet have come to know in our adulthood as sullied by avarice…

    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:26 am

      Excellent point, Paul. I couldn’t agree more…

  31. eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:11 am

    So it is all clear to me now; the ‘voters’ are really anti-voters
    they do not give a shit about voting someone in it – is all about voting some-manyplayersnames go here out
    It may be winter
    It may be a while to ST
    is there no joy in Mudville?
    assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes assholes

  32. eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:12 am

    I think I have made my position clear

  33. eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:55 am

    ok, I have done it, and now I need your help

    • eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 2:12 am

      twin? give me some numbers to put up, please

      • eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 7:23 am

        yes, yes, I realise it is dark outside and zeke has chewed another tennis ball to death
        but I am mad pasionate for my man Barry.
        Look – I was hot for the 2006 Zito big curve.
        AND the 1986 Krukow big curve
        I love a slow ball pitcher
        (do any of you know the difference between a pitcher and a bowler(cricket)?)
        But there was never a better player –
        In my lifetime
        Than Barry Bonds
        and that includes Jimmy Davenport

      • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:35 am

        I threw up some numbers on that FB page about Bonds (pre-1998 numbers). ’98 was the year he supposedly started using PEDS:

        8 MVP awards
        7 Gold Gloves
        7 Silver Slugger awards
        395 HRs
        448 stolen bases.

        Hell…he’s a first ballot HOFer on those numbers alone…

      • twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 9:58 am

        Ed, it is the duty of all of us to be sure that numbers do not get into the hands of evil. Nate Silver can have them, Karl Rove may not. And we must all understand that the “sniff test” is, uh, “fishy”. It means that the sniffer has been proven absolutely, positively WRONGO. The sniff test is usually employed in a manner such as this (names have been changed to protect the guilty):
        The nose guy, Bobby Scnozz, asserts that Frank Dorkenstein can’t hit LH pitchers. The numbers guy points out that Frank is hitting .365 against LHers. The whiiffer dude then goes into sniff mode. “Three sixty five, my ass” (smelly, I should add). Then we get the ole “lies, damn lies…” spiel, followed by the snout chap’s irrefutable calculator- his snuffer…

  34. xoot said, on January 10, 2013 at 7:45 am

    The BWAHAHA are the intelligentsia of baseball. They watch the games closely, day in day, out, etc., etc. Except they’re not, they often don’t, really. As twin said, many of the voters haven’t been close to a clubhouse in decades; some probably don’t even pay much attention until the ballot arrives in their mail — like academy award voters trying to catch up on video in January and February. Journalism itself has changed substantially while the most recent generation of writers has put in the ten years necessary to reach the august level of HOF voter. I’m not convinced it ever made sense to rely on the writers for wise well-informed decisions, but I’m sure it makes no sense now. Fuck the BWAHAHA and to hell with the Hall.

  35. Bozo said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:06 am

    Just some random thoughts this AM.

    I’ve never been to the Hall but they did a road trip show years ago, that ended up at One Market Plaza in SF. I wandered over to check it out and there was a lot of cool stuff. Bats, mitts, catchers gear from the old days, a Ty Cobb rent check (I don’t remember the amount but it was a lot of money) and jerseys. While checking out the jerseys I was completely mesmerized by a pin striped jersey with a number 3 on it. I was as dumbstruck as a baby looking at his fingers moving for the first time. I stood there just gawking at that piece of flannel. There was a little red spot on the lower right side, could have been rust or maybe the Babe picked a pimple there, I don’t know but I remember it. An older gent with a suit on was standing next to me and said “Isn’t it amazing?”, like he was looking at a piece of art and to the two of us standing there, I guess it was.

    As a kid I didn’t get to many games live (my dad hated baseball) but I did get to some and got to see some of the great players from the 60s. Marichal was awesome but the Koufax curve ball I’ll always remember. He’d throw that thing in the mid 90s and it would drop like the bottom just fell out. It was nuts.
    Of the all things Mays did the one I’ll never forget was a throw to third base. I’ve never seen a more perfect throw in my life and it didn’t look like Mays put everything into it. The runner didn’t even try to advance.
    I’ve seen Brock, Wills and Henderson but for pure speed Deion Sanders blew my mind. He was playing for the Giants and dropped a bunt down the First base line. I think it was a two hopper, the First baseman fielded it, started to look towards second but realized Deion was almost to first. He lunged at the bag just barely beating Sanders. I was stunned.
    Never saw Ruth or Williams live so I can’t say anything about their swings first hand. I saw a lot of Bonds from 93 on and I can honestly say I’ve never seen a left hander turn on an inside pitch like Barry. It was like a lightning strike. Unfucking believable.

    For years I’ve tried to find footage of Cool Papa Bell playing, I mean it would be close to a wet dream for me, to see him bunt and run to first. I have yet to find any and it pisses me off that there isn’t more film on a league that had some of the greatest players of the game. Maybe my first Hall visit will be in Kansas City.

    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 8:48 am

      Agree on Bond’s swing (from the standpoint of being able to turn on a pitch). Another sweet swing (still one of the best by a RH hitter in my opinion) was Matt Williams. My favorite all time LH swing from a purely aesthetical point of view is “The Thrill.”

      Yeah, I’ll probably make it to the Negro Leagues HOF before I make it to Cooperstown.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 9:20 am

      Bozo: My father did an interview with Roy Firestone on ESPN some years ago, and one of the best parts was when he talked about going as a young man to the Homestead Gray games. He saw Cool Papa Bell, Josh Gibson… many of the greats of the Negro League. I’d kill for a photo of my Dad as a boy at a Gray game…
      Which brings me to the hypocrisy of the HOF “character” rule. Kenesaw Mountain Landis prevented the integration of black players into MLB and even today, the seperation of Negro League players in the HOF amounts to a “back of the bus” mentality. And I believe there are only 35 players with the honor of being on the bus at all. If character is to be an issue, shut the Hall down now.

      • Bozo said, on January 10, 2013 at 9:53 am

        Man twin, those would be some stories I’d love to hear. I know we’ve all heard or read about these guys but ever since I heard a story about Cool laying down a bunt and without any errors ended up on third, I’ve wanted to see the guy. I don’t know if the story is true but damn I’d love to see him. I don’t remember what team Mays was on but I read an interview with a player from that team that said Willie was pretty good. Granted Mays was just a teen but pretty good? It’s a fucking crime that TV cameras weren’t filming those guys 24/7 if Mays was only considered pretty good.

      • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:44 am

        Mays played for the Birmingham Black Barons.

      • Bozo said, on January 10, 2013 at 11:11 am

        Thanks Chi, I couldn’t remember and didn’t feel like looking it up. Hey, I hear that he was pretty good.

  36. Macdog said, on January 10, 2013 at 9:24 am

    I may have to run out and get this: http://www.whosay.com/kevinnegandhi/photos/272496

  37. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 9:33 am


    • blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:18 am

      I love this graphic. More important to me, I wasn’t aware of the 3, 4, and 5 rankings. The first two rankings I suspected as much. I wish I had this shit when i was a kid, i.e., I could have used one more bit of evidence to refute my best friend’s contention that Aaron was better than Mays. As I have noted here before, we even came to blows over this ongoing argument. 😉

  38. Irish Kevin said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:10 am

    A bunch of us were talking about who should vote for HOF inductees, why not make the teams announcers. They see the players and know them better that writers to me. Typically there are two TV announcers and two Radio announcers. I think that would be a good mix.

    • blade3colorado said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:20 am

      Kevin, the only reason I dislike that idea is not because they are not knowledgeable (for the most part, they are), but rather – because they are ALL HOMERS! 🙂

      • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:47 am

        Yep…agree on that one!

    • snarkk said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:31 am

      Homer issue is easy to deal with, I think it’s a non-issue, Blade. Any beat writer that’s a voter could be suspect of being a homer to some extent. Yet, they aren’t prevented from voting if one of the players they covered on the “home” team beat is up for the HOF…

    • twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 11:43 am

      Craig’s idea has considerable merit if the player vote is only part of the equation. The qualifications for the writers need considerable tightening. I had suggested execs, broadcasters, HOF members being in on it, but that’s too clunky. I think a reasonable solution would be Craig’s player vote and an equal number of writers. limiting each group to, say, 200. The two numbers are tallied with equal weight given to both. If the total tally falls short of the 75 percent but the player is over 75 percent in either voting group, he’s in.
      Nothing really will change, of course, but it’s either talk about it or rake leaves. Or have a nap. Option 3…

  39. snarkk said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:28 am

    Jason Stark on the HOF vote. As usual, a great POV, well written.
    I wish this guy were Commissioner.

    • wswin said, on January 10, 2013 at 11:08 am

      Good read Stark…

      This is why players voting is not the way to go…


      When was steriod use “cheating”? When did they decide that? When did testing for cheating arrive? After the horses left the barn?

      Horse A wins horse of the year because Horse B uses Lasix and Bute, and horse A doesn’t. Bullshit.

      • twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:12 pm

        And many of ex-players turned the Morality Squad are hypocritical, lying pieces of shit. Many did use, but retired before testing began, or used greenies, which, as Rob Neyer writes:
        “But here’s a stone-cold fact: The non-prescription use of prescription drugs — amphetamines, anabolic steroids, you name it — has been a violation of Major League Baseball’s drug policy since 1971. Every player who ingested a single molecule of amphetamines without a prescription since 1971 was, technically speaking, breaking the rules. And if they were doing it with the intent of playing better, they were cheating.
        When it comes to morality, the only thing that matters is intent. When Hall of Fame voters penalize players from the (so-called) Steroid Era while giving a free pass to every player who ever cheated with amphetamines, they’re drawing a line that — and yes, I’m going to say this once more — is intellectually indefensible.”
        So there’s not even an argument that greenies “aren’t the same thing”, or that they may not be “all that” in the enhancement game- anyone who dug into the bowl of funny M&Ms on the pregame “All-U-Can-Eat-Or- Swallow- Buffet” and now blasts the PED users is…wait for it…yes, hypocritical, lying pieces of shit…

  40. Alleykat said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:52 am

    From Jeff Passan, In English: Baseball will keep a doping profile of sorts on players,where any changes of testeroine levels will be evident.
    Key words…Profile of sorts

  41. chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 10:54 am

    Fuck (and I expected this) just got done trying to get spring training tix. Got bleacher seats for the Texas game on the March 15th. Forty FUCKING Two dollars. Hey, I love my Giants…but they are really taking advantage of the situation. I get it…supply and fucking demand.

    Anyway, tried to score tix for the Reds (16th) and Rox (17th). No deal (lawn seats only), so I will wait and hit StubHub (that is how I got most of my tix in 2010).

    Went to the Indian’s site to get tix for the evening game on the 16th (Giants split squad that day – 1:05 against Dusty’s Thugs and 7:05 in Goodyear against the Tribe). Got fucking lower box seats, behind the Giant’s dugout (Inidan tix have been on sale for a month) for $27!

    WTF…I really don’t care…it will all be worth it when the time comes. Giddy up mother fuckers…I CANNOT WAIT for ST!

  42. Sultan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 11:08 am

    ST has gotten overpriced, driven by all the corporate assholes that now flock down there. Restaurants are all way overpriced as well. Local communities are geared up to take full advantage. And the traffic! It’s night and day what it was back in the good old days.

    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:55 pm

      I agree, Sultan…I have been going to ST since ’86. Back then, you could walk up day of game, buy a cheap seat, and then pretty much choose where the hell you wanted to sit. I remember one game (A’s vs. Giants at Phoenix Municipal)…we did that and sat right behind the Giants bullpen and shot the shit with Shooter, Mike Jackson, etc. Yeah, I remember the days…but I still love the experience of kicking off another baseball season. The ticket price difference between the game I got at Scottsdale and Goodyear (Tribe’s yard) is indicitive of how the Giants are taking full advantage of being WS Champs.

  43. James said, on January 10, 2013 at 11:20 am

    It wil be easy for the writers to reject all of these players again next year with Maddox, Glavine, and Mussina on the ballot.

    BTW, even though it now seems highly likely that I’m a douche bag because I was called one yesterday on the Flap, I want to re-assure everyone that anytime I think “wow, that’s pretty muddleheaded,” my characterization is probably a little less definitive.

    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:57 pm

      Douche bag or not…keep it coming James…you continually offer some of the best commentary on this blog.

  44. dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:19 pm

    Where are all of these sanctimonious writers during the annual NFL HOF nominations?

  45. Bozo said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Speaking of Hall of Famers. a big Happy Birthday to Willie McCovey. Have a good one Stretch.

    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:59 pm

      75 years old today. Happy Birthday, Stretch…

    • Alleykat said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:14 pm

      You betcha…,Happy.Birthday Stretch!!!
      My alltime.favorite Giant.The Pride of Mobile Alabama along with some guy named Willie Mays!
      Fantastic duo for the HOF from the same city..

  46. gianthead said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    One thing for certain…we know how many baseball beat writers are just jealous cranks. They are the last ones that should be given a vote. I dont think players should begiven a vote because they can have as many personal grievances and dislieks of certian players thhat beat writers do. I bet a majority of players that played agaisnt Bonds would vote against him for the sheer spite of it. I also dont think many baseball players will have a true appreciation of the history of the game.

    They should have a very select elite blue-ribbon panel of people we all would agree are the elite in the world of baseball reporting, commenting, etc. Buster Olney, Peter Gammons, Tom Verducci, etc. I think a dozen of sort of the best of the best would be the most responsible and responsive to have this responsibility. If everyone knew who those 12 voters would be, I think they would have to publicly defend why or why not a player should be inducted. If they do not have sufficient argument why or why not for a particular year, then they should be booted and replaced. This 12 would also have the pressure of their peers to act as a check on their personal preferences.

    So then all baseball fans can judge how fair each baseball voter was in their votes for Hall of Fame induction.

    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:01 pm

      I heard Marcos Breton (Sac Bee) on KNBR while out at lunch. He voted for Bonds. When asked if he thought Bonds would get in if it was the players voting, he says he does not think so. This in line with what you say Head about players being vindictive, etc.

      I don’t know what the answer is…there have been a number of interesting suggestions here…but one thing for certain…it (the vote) needs to be taken away from the BBWAA…

  47. Birdog said, on January 10, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    Great article on the media (writers) and baseball administrator’s (commisoners, owners, managers) responsibility for the steroid era a how they are using the plays especially Bonds as scapegoats. It’s worth the read.


    • chipower9 said, on January 10, 2013 at 1:39 pm

      Excellent article, Dog…thanks for sharing. One of the best on the topic that I have read yet.

  48. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    I wasn’t kidding about a Baseball Wonderlic Test to qualify a player to be a HOF voter. Maybe ” Who was Rogers Hornsby?” is a bit unfair though, since many of the current voters might ask who the third partner in the law firm was. But to say that most ballplayers are not exactly students of the game is hardly a stretch. If a six year vet is voting on a first time nominee, there’s a good chance our prospective voter might say “Oh yeah, big heater, faced him once, real asshole. No way”
    Spelling “CAT” with the C and T provided is always a good question and eliminates 5 percent
    Another 20 percent go down if asked to name one player other than Babe Ruth who played before 1940.
    25 percent more hit the dust if asked to name one thing the first base coach does that a ball dude couldn’t do just as well
    30 percent are eliminated if asked to name 5 current members of the HOF
    19 percent are outta here if asked what the batting average is if a guy is 3 for 10.
    So 1% of all players are qualified to vote. Using Craig’s qualifications, the Wonderlic test, and applying the character clause to the voters as well as the nominees, the players who will be voting for next year’s HOF class are Pokey Reese and Jeremy Guthrie..

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 10, 2013 at 3:23 pm

      That Hornsby guy kills it on the piano.

  49. Flavor said, on January 10, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    I got through about half that article BirdDog, will read the rest when i get home.
    How’s the tagging going on you facebook-deadbeat plan?

  50. dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 10, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    The Giants singed Kensuke Tanaka to a minor league deal with an invite to speiing training. I don’t know this guy but he’s got ok Japanese league numbers and looks like a good utility option. Does this mean sayonara Theriot?

    • Flavor said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:37 pm

      well it sure as shit doesn’t look like “Konichiwa Theriot”, lol

  51. snarkk said, on January 10, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    Barry Larkin is a HOFer, but Barry Bonds is not? Did they give Larkin a lie detector test that he passed regarding no PEDs use while he played? I’ve concluded that the HOF, unless and until voting is radically changed as to voters and considerations, is now and in future will continue to be, a joke. Further dirtying the waters are the insufferable HOFers, like Goose Gossage, who are throwing stones at the alleged PED users, and basically saying that “we”, the HOFers, are offended that they’re even considered for entry. Since being in the HOF is a privilege bestowed, not a right guaranteed, how is it that these current HOFers that “got theirs” already, have any say in this whatever? They don’t, they should not. And, as has been mentioned today and other days here and elsewhere, the number of current HOFers who have, shall we say, “enhanced” their performance with speed or other PEDs during their playing days, must be substantial. From now on, I’ll regard the HOF museum still as a great repository of the memorabilia and memories of the game, worth making a visit, for sure. I’ve been, it’s great. But as far as the HOF goes, it’s near worthless now…

  52. snarkk said, on January 10, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    And, yes, Happy Birthday to Stretch. 75, hopefully many more.
    I’ve never heard or seen him quoted as saying anything one way or another about this HOF stuff. He keeps his opinions to himself, like the gentleman he is. If he used or didn’t use greenies or whatever while he played, I don’t give a rat’s ass…

  53. twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    It’s bad enough that PED users are denied, far worse is the rubbish that selected players who have not been linked, charged, implicated, or are in any way under suspicion other than an unspecified profile used to create a “hunch” that they may have used. This has elevated steroid hysteria to Joe McCarthy level paranoia and, in the case of Hall voters, nearly slanderous confessions that players they admit are deserving have been denied because , we must suppose, they look like a duck, quack like a duck… this is outrageous. Barry Larkin must submit to a lie detector test to prove he didn’t do something he hasn’t been charged with doing? The *only* way such a suggestion is even slightly defensible on any level is if every single living HOF inductee and every single player on the ballot submits to the test.

    • twinfan1 said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:30 pm

      This is not the same thing at all as what’s been discussed about former players gertting on the pulpit. What is ng practiced is the proposal that *selected* recent and current nominees berequired to prove their innocence of a “crime” that were never accused of committing. Like him or not, Mike Piazza is probably the greatest hitting catcher in rthe history of the game and voters have *admitted* they excluded him because he might have used steroids.

    • snarkk said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:38 pm

      You do get that the “lie detector test” statement was rhetorical? Maybe you don’t…

  54. eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:22 pm

    Ihave worn my SF hat for a long time nooow
    and I have had no reactions
    except ony Brit who asked “where are you from?
    Hearing my american accent
    I pointed to the hat

    • Flavor said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:39 pm

      Pawlie will love this post…….

  55. eddacker said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:30 pm

    only if you are willinfg to go there

  56. Flavor said, on January 10, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    new thread.

  57. eddacker said, on January 12, 2013 at 1:43 am

    my library came through. I know hold in my arms “Hippie Dream” ‘Waging Heavy Peace’
    I am on page one and I cannot stop crying. For those of us lucky enough to have come of age in the 60s this man gave us so much love.
    I only wish I could give him a little back.

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