A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Most Exciting Ending Ever (To a Giants Game)

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on May 26, 2013

I think it’s easy to argue that yesterday’s game at AT&T was the most exciting ending to a game that any of us have ever seen. Think about it. How likely is an inside the park home run? If you’re talking about *unexpected*, and an inside-the-park jobber is the LAST thing anyone could predict, this one wins hands down.

Factor in the time elapsed, too. Pavlovic (Merc) has the ITPHR timed at 14.8 seconds. I’ll take his word on it. What’s a normal home run time out at? Four seconds? Pagan’s game winner lasted 10 seconds longer. My favorite part of that bomb was when Flannery sends him and Pagan looks at him and gives him a definitive head nod–like, “ok, I got this.” You can see it clearly at the 1:56 mark in the first video I posted below (and a couple of times after that). Epic.

The calls on this were great. Kuip seemed to pick up on it possibly happening a little earlier than Fleming did and I think that’s why I might like Flem’s call a little better. Judge for yourself:

And Flem’s:

http://vimeo.com/66987933

The Rockies broadcasters seemed completely unprepared for this outcome until about the 12 second mark:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2013_05_25_colmlb_sfnmlb_1&mode=video&content_id=27433633&tcid=vpp_copy_27433633

And now for my *unexpected* take on this:

Did Flannery forget how many outs there were? I’m not saying he did. I’m just throwing it out there. He’d never admit it. But unless he was suddenly struck with Autism, I can’t imagine what would possess him to send Pagan with only one out unless he was absolutely certain that he would be safe. And how many ITPHR’s are no doubters?

Whatever. I don’t really care. But there’s at least an inkling of a possibility that Flannery bone-headed that play into a glorious outcome.

I’ll listen to anyone else’s nomination, but I can’t imagine a more exciting ending to a baseball game for a Giants fan…….

Here’s the last walk-off ITPHR– it happened in 2004, Rey Sanchez hit it (naturally, it was against the Rockies)–and I submit that it wasn’t nearly as exciting as the one we saw yesterday……

106 Responses

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  1. Nipper said, on May 26, 2013 at 7:29 am

    Foresight. As the Park was being built Peter McGowan mentioned in an interview at the time of the design of the field and how triples and inside the park homeruns would be encouraged.

    • salty said, on May 26, 2013 at 8:56 am

      Good point, Nip. And this should quell the ridiculous notion of changing anything.

      Pagan is perfect for this park. Don’t know if was foresight on the G’s part, but acquiring him turned out to be a brilliant move.

  2. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 8:16 am

    The score was already tied. , if Pagan ws the tying run it would be a mistake to send him, as the winning run, it was gutsy but what we should expect from a good 3rd base coach.

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 8:44 am

      With 1 out?
      No way

    • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 8:55 am

      So what are yoiu saying? The silly notion that he didn’t know how many outs there were? I think that YOU forgot the diff between gambling with the score tied and one run one behind. You may have also forgotten that our best relievers were already used. Flannery made a good call.

  3. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 8:38 am

    First: this was the most exciting ending to a regular season game that I can remember. But nothing can beat a walk off HR in the 9th inning of Game 7 to win the World Series. So Mazeroski’s shot is number one for me .As to Flannery, he didn’t forget how many outs there.were.

    • Bozo said, on May 26, 2013 at 2:37 pm

      I don’t mean to make a liar out of myself, but I thought I should reply to this post. In mentioning the 60 Pirates and Flannery, I just wondered if you knew Hal Smith is Flan’s uncle. I’d imagine Smith’s 3 run HR in the 8th inning was pretty dramatic, not as much as Maz but it needed to happen for the game winning shot.

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 5:31 pm

        I didn’t know that about Flannery and Smith. Thanks. But yeah ,Maz’s shot was the dramatic one, but Smith’s was the real “clutch”: hit.

  4. salty said, on May 26, 2013 at 8:58 am

    BF thanks for the audio links. I had the mute on as I usually do.

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:23 am

      No problem. Thanks for appreciating the time I took to assemble them all.

  5. Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:06 am

    Twin, u think Flan was worrying about who was going to pitch next inning? Unlikely. But even if that were true it makes sending him even dumber– what was more likely to happen, pagan making it home safely or Scutaro or Pablo driving him in? I’d bet on the guy who handles the bat better than anyone on our team to get him in with one out.
    Sending him was a ridiculous decision and it’s only a “good call” in your eyes because it worked out.
    Had he been thrown out Flannery would have been crucified by everyone.

    • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:09 am

      Wrongo.You’re only pushing this because of yiour ridiculous notion that he forgot how many out there were.

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:17 am

        Players forget the number of outs and it’s obvious to see based on their reaction (ie, running to dugout when no one else does).
        Coaches are harder to catch. But you’ll see that I asked the question, I’m not strongly attached to it as a theory.
        But it’s possible. And either way, it was not the right call unless you want to go with knowing the outcome and I’m fine if that’s the route you want to take

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:27 am

        Here’s what I’m going with: Flannery obviously weighed the chances of success. In fact, his thought process was impressive. The key being that Tulo was not taking the relay throw. I guarantee that that never entered your mind until a few minutes ago. Secondly, I’m going with his judgement over yours.

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:32 am

        Your guarantee is wrong. I read the Pav thing very early this morning BEFORE I wrote today’s thread. I also noticed that Kruk thought it was Tulo and he butchered the call. I guarantee you didn’t notice that!

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:54 am

        Kruk has had a terrible year, I think the Vulcan mind meld fucked up and he got Estes’ brain.

  6. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:06 am

    From Pav’s blog, Flannery thinking out the decision:
    “When Pagan took off from the box, Flannery’s eyes went to several spots. He watched the ball bounce off the wall and back toward Dexter Fowler … he watched the Crazy Horse put his head down and chug for third … and he watched as D.J. LeMahieu, not the rocket-armed Troy Tulowitzki (“Tulow has got a GUN,” Flannery said later) set up for the relay throw.”
    Great photo:
    flan

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:07 am

      Maybe he should have “watched” the scoreboard to see how many outs there were

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:19 am

        I’m not like the second guessers you defend here. I don’t judge a decision by the result but of the soundness of it. You just want to create a false controversy by “throwing out” the absurd notion that Flannery forgot how many outs there were. And you do that because it can’t be proven either way. Hey, let’s just throw out that he had money on the Rockies…

    • James said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:18 am

      They look like two victims of the Man With No Name in their last seconds. Of course, he rarely faced only two villains at once.

    • denniszu said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:15 am

      Beautiful caption of the power and chemistry of a team that is prepared for post-season.

      • eddacker said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:07 pm

        my thoughts, exactly! This TEAM has to have a huge boost in their esprit de corps.
        go gigantes.

  7. xoot said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:21 am

    It was a wild beautiful finish, but not my favorite Giants walkoff. I especially like the walkoffs that rise up from down-to-your-last-strike depths. And I don’t know about that head nod being in response to Flannery. Looks to me like it was just part of Pagan’s effort as he lit the afterburner. Late in the video, however, you can see Scutaro joking with Pagan, something like: What, didn’t you trust me to drive you in?

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:25 am

      Well, I watched it about 20 times. I might be seeing something that isn’t there– watch something long enough and you start seeing what you want to see I guess

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:28 am

      Also, I started watching the replay on my phone around 4am so my analysis might have been a little foggy, lol

    • xoot said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:40 am

      Well, I’m not sure. Part of what I was getting at is that it’s easier to see what was happening late in the video, during the celebration. The actual play was so wild and fast even in slomo it’s hard to comprehend. Easy to be amazed by it, however. Also, as others have said, it’s a treat to have all three broadcasts here to compare.

  8. Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:37 am

    Twin you take everything so goddamn seriously. If I apologize publicly for raising the question for debate will that shut you up ?
    If you want to take everything so fucking seriously stick to writing more at your blog. You seem to do a fabulous job handling life’s more serious and important issues

    • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:50 am

      You have no idea how “seriously” I’m taking this. Don’t presume that you do. I take the importance of winning or losing a baseball game about as seriously as I do with how much BBQ dust there in a bag of BBQ potato chips.But why would you raise your dumb theory if you didn’t want debate on it? Did you expect everybody to say what a brilliant take you had? Fine: Flannery is a dumb fuck dunderhead, I can’t imagine why no one except Flavor called hiim on it…
      Now, moving on: great weekend to barbecue..

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:53 am

        So far I haven’t been able to debate it with anyone. You don’t debate, you tell people they’re silly or stupid or whatever. That’s not debating, it’s 3rd grade name calling

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 9:59 am

        You have are having a serious case of Romnesia, you are rhe WORST at name calling. And thowing out your notion of Flannery forgetting how many outs there were IS, to use what you said of me : IDIOTIC. Clean up your own house, pal.

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:01 am

        Yeah, you’re right. There are countless bloggers here who are always accusing me of that. Um, or is that someone else? Hmmmmm

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:04 am

        Well, you call me names, you are selective.

  9. zumiee said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:02 am

    “I’m not like the second guessers you defend here.”

    TF, I hope your social skills are better in real life than they are on the blog.

    • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:07 am

      Why do you feel the need to speculate about my personal life? I’m referring to defending the habit of many here to second guess decisions only when they’ve gone wrong.

      • zumiee said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:10 am

        “the habit of many.”

        Fine, then name names. Who are you talking about? And give a few examples. Give us a chance to defend ourselves on that instead of just a blanket accusation.

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:22 am

        Why would you feel the need to defend yourself? You know what I’m talking about, there’s no need for names- Flavor even, hilariously, made a new rule, so that those second guessing decisions only after they’d gone wrong would be protected from being critisized for it. so, see:if I name names, I’d be violating the rule. Think of it as my protecting the guilty parties…(GRIN)

      • zumiee said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:30 am

        It was a blanket accusation that probably left a lot of us wondering who you were talking about. Statements like that kind of sting, but maybe you don’t realize that.

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:37 am

        What rule did I make (hilariously, apparently)?

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:39 am

        It stung? Really? Whatever..are you that sensitive in your personal life? Wow.
        But as to “we’ll never know”..actually, if one reads the account of Flannery’s thought process, one could not think he had lost track of the outs..

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:48 am

        Flavor: The rule that second guessers could not be criticized for waiting for the outcome of a decision before they second guessed it. The usual story of why there was no objection before the outcome goes something like this: “I told the parakeet that Bochy was wrong”..

      • zumiee said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:49 am

        “It stung? Really? Whatever..are you that sensitive in your personal life? Wow.”

        I don’t consider sensitivity a weakness. I consider it part of normal healthy social interaction. I like to think of the Flap as a friendly social forum. I bought a ticket to Flapalooza, and I look forward to meeting folks that I consider to be friends.

      • zumiee said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:57 am

        “The usual story of why there was no objection before the outcome goes something like this: “I told the parakeet that Bochy was wrong”..

        The point was that not everyone is on the blog 24/7, nor can they be, but they would still like to be able to post that they disagreed with a decision without enduring your full-court press.

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:59 am

        Well, you won’t have to worry about meeting me..
        I don’t consider sensitivity a weakness, either. But dude, that’s off the rails, get in a bubble “sensitivity”.

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:00 am

        thank you Zumie, it’s nice that someone remembers where that came from. The parakeet thing is just more condescending bs from you, twin……

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:13 am

        The belated second guessing was only noted when someone WAS on the blog AND posting regularly on the plays. And my characterization of the usual story from the second guesser may be colorful but it’s in essence,correct. “I told everybody in the room” is the usual story. Look, EVERYONE has second guessed only when the decision backfires. Fucking fess up, it doesn’t make you a bad person.

  10. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:09 am

    Now what you do you say, Z? I’m not seeing much anywhere so far that questions Flannery’s decision..

    • zumiee said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:14 am

      I thought it was an interesting speculation by BF. We’ll never know for certain. I don’t have an opinion either way on it.

  11. denniszu said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:23 am

    The thing that warmed my heart was Pagan, during the immediate interview with Amy, acknowledged the fans encouragement while he was rounding 3rd….. Chemistry = Post-season Success….

  12. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 10:25 am

    “We’ll never know for certain.” That’s the beauty of throwing out a suggestion of that, isn’t it? And that’s why it’s done.
    .

  13. Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:11 am

    “And that’s why it’s done.” No, it isn’t.
    I tossed it into the thread because it flittered through my mind at 5am when I was composing the thread and I thought some of you would have an opinion about it. Before I did it I went and watched interviews from the game and read other articles (which is why your *guarantee* that I didn’t see the Pav blog post pissed me off a little) to see if anyone else had suggested it. Flannery breaking down the reasons why he sent him would mean NOTHING to me if I truly thought he lost track of the outs–it would be what he would say INSTEAD of “actually, I thought there were 2 outs.”
    I threw out a theory that I hadn’t heard anyone else suggest. I asked a question that I hadn’t heard asked about the epic play. I didn’t say anything about being sure that it happened. In fact, his explanation does make a lot more sense than what I spontaneously tossed out there at 5am.
    But “we’ll never know for certain” is absolutely in play with all of this. And really, so what if we’ll never know? It’s not that big of a deal…….

    • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:23 am

      We’ll never “know for certain” is “in play” with about anything of which there’s no concrete proof either way. That doesn’t make it plausible. Now here’s the LU:

      Blanco CF
      Scutaro 2B
      Sandoval 3B
      Posey C
      Pence RF
      Belt 1B
      Torres LF
      Crawford SS
      Cain RHP

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:29 am

        well than I officially apologize to you for writing something you consider not plausible. I choose to believe that there have been 3rd base coaches in the history of the game that have, at one point or another in their careers, forgotten how many outs there were in an inning. Apparently, you believe this has never happened or you wouldn’t have used the word “plausible”

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:36 am

        if I had said, “it’s extremely unlikely that this happened, but what if….”would that have made it easier for you to tolerate?

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:41 am

        I chose “plausible” for this definition: : Seeming reasonable or probable.
        It’s not plausible in the case *you* chose to select. No doubt there have been coaches who have forgotten how many outs there were. That has no bearing on whether it’s plausible that Flannery forgot.

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:42 am

        “possible” is one of many definitions for the word “plausible”. Thanks for clarifying what you meant

    • Bozo said, on May 26, 2013 at 3:15 pm

      I’m not sure if I want to get into this, but Flan had a couple of these insiders before with the Pads. I think one was against Chacon (Rocks) and I think another insider against the Dodgers (Grand Slam). I don’t remember if they were walk offs, but a gambling man he is, fuck the outs.

  14. Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:39 am

    What should be MUCH greater concern to us (as Giants fans) is that Pagan isn’t in the LU today because he hurt his knee yesterday. FUCK!!!!!!!!!!! I’m sure it happened in the celebration
    from ESPN:
    After completed his mad dash to the plate on his walk-off inside-the-park job Saturday afternoon, Pagan was seen walking with a noticeable limp and was later icing his knees. It doesn’t appear to be anything more than ordinary knee soreness, so it doesn’t seem as though Pagan will miss much action, though he will remain on the bench Sunday.
    _________
    hopefully it truly is just normal soreness.

  15. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:46 am

    On the night they pulled him for “light headedness”, he was limping going to first base in his first AB . I’ve wondered about that for awhile. But he sure could have hurt himself more yesterday.

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:49 am

      I’m not certain, but I think that had to do with his sore groin (he missed a game or two because of it, right?). The fact that this report says “knee” has me worried. And he didn’t look like he was limping at all going around all 4 bases yesterday. If he was injured I would think Flan might take that into consideration before sending him home. thus, I think it happened in the celebration. It is plausible to injure yourself in a home plate celebration, correct?

    • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 12:11 pm

      I didn’t dispute that he might have been hurt in the celeberation. Just that he was limping the night they pulled him for “light headeness”. They later said it was the flu. Any time he missed was attributed to that, and I think he only missed a day..I don’t know if he was still hurting.

  16. salty said, on May 26, 2013 at 11:55 am

    Six laps to go…

  17. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    Chico, I had posted another comment on my blog.

  18. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    Evans had said Tuesday was between Heston, Kickham, and Loux. Make that Kickham and Loux, Heston is pitching now against Colorado Springs…

  19. eddacker said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    Pagan’s game winning scamper was an 11 on the sweetness meter. It was too fucking cool. Shocking, surprising, supreme and quite joyous to watch. Great baseball by a great player for a great team.

    That is to say, I liked it, a lot.

  20. eddacker said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    It is why we love day games.
    One of the best videos was the one that showed Flannery, arms raised, bouncing back up the third base line. If it was it may have been one of the best mistakes ever.

  21. eddacker said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    One out in the first, 29 pitches, where has Matt Cain gone?

  22. PawlieKokonuts said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    I see the Angels DFAed RHP Billy Buckner. I scratched my head. “Didn’t he just pitch yesterday and get the win?” I checked. Indeed he did. He pitched 5 shutout innings yesterday. He is 1-0. Did he insult Sciosia’s sister? Why DFA him? Scoop him up as a Number 5 starter. Give it a whirl. #strange

  23. PawlieKokonuts said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    This game is becoming Reaganesque, “As in, ‘There you go again.'” Or maybe Mondaleian.

  24. PawlieKokonuts said, on May 26, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Is that a fecking typo? 11 pitches for Garland, 62 for Cain????????

  25. snarkk said, on May 26, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    I’ve railed against these walkoff celebrations as risky and dangerous, not just for the walk off hero. I hope Pagan did not get injured doing that. Celebrate, yes. Be stoopid slapping and hitting and wrestling each othe and jumping on guys’ backs, NO…

  26. PawlieKokonuts said, on May 26, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    According to The Splash, he had a hamstring problem BEFORE the ITPHR. Which makes The Most Exciting Ending Ever to a Giants Game all the more remarkable, if so.

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:06 pm

      and that much dumber that Flan sent him.

      • salty said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:31 pm

        Well, I know Kuip gave flannery POTG for having the “testes” to send him with ” less than 2 outs”.

      • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:54 pm

        Sure he did. It worked and he fucking loves Flan—2 great reasons to stroke him with POTG. Had it not worked I’m sure Kruk would have respected his good buddy and sat silent while the rest of the world skewered him

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 6:41 pm

        Pagan scored comfortably, the key was that Tuiip wasn’t making the relay throw.

  27. Bozo said, on May 26, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Gotta love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  28. Bozo said, on May 26, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    I’m figuring everyone is manning the grill(s) and didn’t see the Giants take the lead?

  29. blade3colorado said, on May 26, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    I just got back from a Boulder Art Fair . . . I see the Gmen are ensuring that the Rockies have no doubt about how Darwin’s Theory of Evolution applies to them and their place in the NL West Division. 🙂

  30. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 3:59 pm

    We’re observing Memorial Day today, see you all tomorrow.

    • blade3colorado said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:10 pm

      Take care Twin.

  31. blade3colorado said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:44 pm

    The world is back on its axis again. Goooooooooooooooooo Giants! 🙂

  32. Bozo said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    Hell of a win.

  33. Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    Deep into the BP again. This all but assures we’ll see Kick or Loux.

  34. PawlieKokonuts said, on May 26, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Check Coolstandings.com or ESPN. Eejits. Our playoff percentage possibility just went down! Post it in the dugout, Bruce.

  35. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Kickham Tuesday.

  36. twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Pretty close between our 3 jack rabbits thru yesterday:

    Pagan .262 BA .314 OBP .688 OPS .303 wOBA 95 wRC+ .07 WAR
    Torres .264 BA .304 OBP .695 OPS .304 wOBA 96 wRC+ .05 WAR
    Blanco .285 BA .343 OBP .709 OPS .313 wOBA 102 wRC+ .05 WAR

    I imagine that Pagan will pull away.

    • Flavor said, on May 26, 2013 at 7:06 pm

      all 3 need to pick it up, especially Pagan. Outside of his miracle hit yesterday, he’s been well below what he did last year and what we’re paying him to do the next 4 years…….

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 7:16 pm

        Torres has been been coming on. I agree that Pagan needs to pick it up, I’m glad *you* said it.

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 7:40 pm

        Upon further review, they’ve all picked it up in the last week.

      • twinfan1 said, on May 26, 2013 at 8:15 pm

        Have a good Memorial Day. As I said, we observed it today. More in remembrance of others,it means little to me personally, other than good barbecue…I love the smell of mesquite smoke in the morning… Good night all.

  37. eddacker said, on May 27, 2013 at 7:42 am

    testing 1, 2,

  38. willedav said, on May 27, 2013 at 8:04 am

    ? for baseball history guys: I was talking to a guy over ‘cue last night who claimed Lou Gehrig as best ball player ever. I could see that as a hitter only (I chose Mays) for what he did during his career.
    During the ’30s there were some amazing offensive stats put up by NL players. I just looked at Cardinals of 1930 who won the league, scored 1000 runs, hit .314 as a team…and that was third best. Every regular in the LU hit over .300 and two bench guys of 250 ABs over .360.
    I think this was also around time Hack Wilson drove in 190 runs. So my ? is, any historical suspicion the ball was juiced to drive up attendance during Depression?

    • twinfan1 said, on May 27, 2013 at 9:14 am

      There’s too much conflicting info whether the ball was juiced that I’ll pass on that- was Lou Gehrig the best ball player ever ? IMO- he would rank in the top TWENTY at best.. I don’t think a first baseman can even be in the discussion for the best ever. CF, RF, SS are the postitions I’d consider and the player has to be a 5-tool player. Gehrig is short two of them. It’s Say Hey in a landslide, IMO.

      • xoot said, on May 27, 2013 at 11:14 am

        The five-tool RF/CF/SS criteria bars both Bonds and Rickey H. I’d have them near the top, ahead of Gehrig definitely, although for all his speed and agility Rickey wasn’t really good with the glove. Bonds was. Agreed, however, neither would’ve been able to throw from RF to 3B. Mays, Ruth, Clemente, Aaron . . . et seq.

      • twinfan1 said, on May 27, 2013 at 11:36 am

        Well, “Who’s number 1 ” is a debate that will never be settled, thank goodness. I’d definitively have Bonds in the top 10 and Rickey in the top 20. I used to rate Bonds top 5 but the linguine arm drops him a bit, IMO.

    • zumiee said, on May 27, 2013 at 10:27 am

      The leagues were more autonomous in the early years, so the leagues used different companies for baseballs if they wanted to, so it’s possible the NL had a livelier ball, but hard to prove. The baseballs, in general, were getting harder by then; the balls were softer in the earlier years. And they started replacing the balls during the games more, so that helped the hitters with a whiter ball and less scuffed. And the spitball was finally outlawed, but I think that may have happened in the early ’20s, if I remember correctly.

    • zumiee said, on May 27, 2013 at 10:32 am

      The spitball has been in the news again lately. A couple of pitchers have been accused of it. Here’s some history of the spitball from Wikipedia:

      The invention of the spitball has been popularly credited to a number of individuals, among them Elmer Stricklett and Frank Corridon. Numerous accounts, however, refer to different players experimenting with versions of the spitball throughout the latter half of the 19th century, and it remains unlikely that any one individual “invented” the spitball.[1]
      Ed Walsh, however, is certainly responsible for popularizing it. Walsh dominated the American League from 1906–1912 primarily on the strength of his spitball, and pitchers around the league soon copied his spitball or invented their own trick pitch.
      The dramatic increase in the popularity of “freak deliveries” led to a great deal of controversy throughout the 1910s regarding the abolition of the spitball and related pitches. In his autobiography, Ty Cobb wrote that such “freak pitches” “were outlawed when the owners greedily sold out to home runs.”[2]
      In addition, there were serious issues with the spitball, as a variation on the standard spitball called for the pitcher to smear the entire surface of the normally white ball with a mixture of tobacco spittle and dirt or mud in order to stain it the same deep brown color as the infield, making it nearly impossible for batters to see or avoid in low-light conditions. In August 1920, Ray Chapman was famously struck in the temple and killed by a spitball thrown by pitcher Carl Mays during a poorly lit game; Chapman is the second of only two Major League Baseball players to have died as a result of an injury received in a game (the first was Mike “Doc” Powers in 1909).
      The spitball was banned in two stages. In the winter of 1919–1920, managers voted to partially ban the spitball, allowing each team to designate at most two pitchers who would be permitted to legally throw spitballs. Then, following the 1920 season, the spitball was banned leaguewide, except for existing spitballers who were grandfathered in and allowed to keep throwing the pitch legally until they retired.[3]
      Seventeen existing spitballers were granted this exemption. Burleigh Grimes lasted the longest, retiring in 1934. The complete list: Doc Ayers (played through 1921); Ray Caldwell (1921); Stan Coveleski (1928); Bill Doak (1929); Phil Douglas (1922); Red Faber (1933); Dana Fillingim (1925); Ray Fisher (1920); Marv Goodwin (1925); Dutch Leonard (1925); Clarence Mitchell (1932); Jack Quinn (1933); Allen Russell (1925); Dick Rudolph (1927); Urban Shocker (1928); and Allen Sothoron (1926).
      In March 1955, MLB Commissioner Ford Frick advocated for the return of the spitball, telling a sportswriter, “If I had my way, I’d legalize the old spitter. It was a great pitch and one of the easiest to throw. There was nothing dangerous about it.”[4] Despite the Commissioner’s enthusiasm, the pitch remained illegal.

      • zumiee said, on May 27, 2013 at 10:38 am

        It’s interesting that after the pitch was banned, the existing spitballers were “grandfathered” in and allowed to keep throwing it the rest of their careers.

      • snarkk said, on May 27, 2013 at 11:52 am

        “Urban Shocker”. Great name…

  39. twinfan1 said, on May 27, 2013 at 10:45 am

    1. Gregor Blanco (L) CF

    2. Marco Scutaro (R) 2B

    3. Pablo Sandoval (S) 3B

    4. Buster Posey (R) DH

    5. Hunter Pence (R) RF

    6. Brandon Belt (L) 1B

    7. Andres Torres (S) LF

    8. Brandon Crawford (L) SS

    9. Guillermo Quiroz (R) C

    1. Coco Crisp (S) CF

    2. Chris Young (R) RF

    3. Yoenis Cespedes (R) LF

    4. Josh Donaldson (R) 3B

    5. Jed Lowrie (S) 2B

    6. Nate Freiman (R) 1B

    7. Seth Smith (L) DH

    8. Derek Norris (R) C

    9. Adam Rosales (R) SS

  40. zumiee said, on May 27, 2013 at 10:52 am

    Speaking of baseball history, today has one of the rarest of rarities these days: an actual SCHEDULED double-header, between the D-Backs and the Rangers.
    The scheduled double-header used to be a common thing back in the day, of course. One of the most famous in Giants history being the Halicki no-hitter in Game 2 of a double-header vs. the Mets, in the mid-’70s. A few of us Flappers were at that game, we have determined. To be honest, I actually remember more about Game 1, when Kingman hit 2 homeruns, one of them a grandslam. The Game 2 no-hitter was actually kind of boring (for a young fan), although it was exciting in the last couple of innings when the realization of what was happening sank in. I remember as much the awe in the voice of my friend’s dad as he drove us home. He was trying to express to us the importance of what we’d seen, and at the time, I thought I “got” it, but over the years I realized that it’s something you appreciate much more when you’re older. When you’re younger, you just think you’re going to see that kind of thing all the time. Like, when the Giants won the division in ’71, and then lost in the playoffs; I thought, well, that’s not such a big deal, we’re going to be in the playoffs a lot in the next several years. (grin)

    • snarkk said, on May 27, 2013 at 12:10 pm

      It’s a double header, but a split one. Game one done, everybody clears out, then new crowd comes in with new tix to see the nightcap. I haven’t seen why they’re doing this…

  41. blade3colorado said, on May 27, 2013 at 11:40 am

    I am hoping that Kickham can continue to shine after joining the club, The kid has gone 3-1 with a 1.72 ERA over his last five starts. He has 29 SOs and nine walks during those five starts. However, his control is suspect and it remains a weakness in my opinion, e.g., 22 walks in 54 innings this season after walking 75 in 150.2 innings last year.

    So fast forward to the possibility of Ryan Vogelsong, Barry Zito and Tim Lincecum all leaving via free agency this winter, the Giants may need to find three new starters. It would be nice if Kickham could be one of those three. Stranger things have happened. Frankly, I don’t see Zito coming back on his option, nor do I see Lincecum being here either. That leaves Vogelsong and he’ll have to show more outings like his last abbreviated start, for him to stay. It will be an interesting season and off season, that’s for sure.

    I just spoke with Pawlie and we were discussing the NCAA National Lacrosse Championship . . . It’s on ESPN and Syracuse just took the lead over Duke 7-6 in the 3rd quarter. Go Syracuse!

    • snarkk said, on May 27, 2013 at 11:55 am

      Logic says Kickham will not do well in his debut. With control issues, the A’s are not the team to have them against. They’ll take pitch after pitch after pitch. He better have his command and control cleats on…

      • twinfan1 said, on May 27, 2013 at 12:00 pm

        On the other hand, Parker isn’t vey good. So look for a pitcher’s duel 😉

    • blade3colorado said, on May 27, 2013 at 12:07 pm

      I think I jinxed Syracuse after I gave them that “attaboy.” It’s now Duke, 13-7. Sorry Pawlie. 🙂


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