A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Our Most Critical Trade Deadline Need

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on June 23, 2013

The deadline isn’t for another month+ but Bochy is already getting asked about what the team *needs*. It was weird to hear his reply to Pav at the Merc. When asked about deadline acquisitions he responded, “You look in the bullpen, that’s where we need help.”

Uh, look again.

Casilla and Voggy are both coming back relatively soon (SC obviously before RV). Casilla rejoining the bullpen will have a huge stabilizing effect. And when Voggy comes back some time after the all star game, that sends Gaudin back to the pen. Kontos is expected back by then, too (although if Rosario keeps pitching so effectively there won’t be a spot for Kontos).

That’s all the reinforcements that are needed in the pen.

After Pagan has his surgery I think it’s safe to count him out till the beginning of September. No way he makes it back in 6 weeks. And don’t even get me started on the 4 weeks he’s already missed dickin’ around with this. An outfield of Torres, Blanco and Pence (with Perez spot starting assuming he can stop himself from swinging at every pitch thrown his direction) is an intriguing plan. Blanco did some very nice, non-statistical things in the playoffs in 2012 to help us win and he seems to be running with this opportunity to play every day at the top of the line up. And if Torres has gotten rid of those weirdo little league gaffes then I would tacitly support a no-add at the trade deadline in regards to an outfielder. With Perez as a 4th guy, we might be able to roll deep with the trifecta of Torres, White Shark and Pence all the way through the Summer….

If the Giants are going to add at the break I hope it’s a starting pitcher. They are always coveted and for that reason the price is going to make Sabean do a slow burn, but there will almost certainly be a spot to fill in the starting 5 even after Voggy comes back. Remember, Voggy pretty much sucked all year until the game he got hurt. I think it’s fair to assume this is a lost year for him. He might surprise me, but pitching like shit for 7 out of 9 starts and then getting hurt is not exactly the definition of a charmed year waiting to unfold. It’s quite possible we’ve seen the last of Voggy’s magic.

While he’s the first guy I’d discard in favor of a *Bud Norris* or a *Rickey Nolasco*, there is a very high likelihood that Timmy or Zito will need a *break* (or total replacement) at some point this Summer. Right now, both are pitching well enough to keep their spots and Cain and Bum are obviously in no danger of losing their spots. But if you asked me TODAY the role Sabean should be targeting at the deadline, purely based on need, I’m shouting “starting pitching!” way before a starting LF or a set up guy…..

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  1. twinfan1 said, on June 23, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    A guy I’ve liked for years is Jesse Crain. Depending how things go with the rotation in the next three weeks or so, another reliever could be the spot we need the most. He’d be a rental and hasn’t closed so he won’t break the prospect bank. Crain/Casilla/Affeldt/Lopez/Romo as the late guys and it’s a 6 inning game when we have the lead.

    • Flavor said, on June 23, 2013 at 6:43 pm

      I like Crain too, although he didn’t have the best outing today. He’d be a plus-add assuming his arm is cool. Peavy’s hurt again or I would suggest another block buster with the White Sox. It worked out pretty good last time:
      July 31, 1997: The Chicago White Sox traded pitchers Wilson Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez, and Danny Darwin to the San Francisco Giants for pitchers Keith Foulke, Bobby Howry, Lorenzo Barcelo, and Ken Vining, shortstop Mike Caruso, and minor league outfielder Brian Manning.

  2. unca_chuck said, on June 23, 2013 at 6:59 pm

    I never listen to Marty Lurie, but I was on the road, and had to listen to aftermath of today’s debacle, and he brought up Crain as well. Short-term? Sure. Long term? Definitely a starter. The point being, this is yet another tough roadie we face, and hitting LA/Colo/Cincy with a tired pen isn’t a good idea. The starters are actually doing their bit lately, but the pen has been horseshit.

    • Nipper said, on June 23, 2013 at 7:24 pm


  3. Nipper said, on June 23, 2013 at 7:23 pm

    At least Twinkies are coming back July 15th. All is not lost.

    • Nipper said, on June 23, 2013 at 7:25 pm

      And a newer darker chocolate for the cupcakes.

  4. willedav said, on June 23, 2013 at 7:32 pm

    Good thread, I’m interested to see what others here think. Currently SF is in top 4-5 of most offensive stats in the league (despite the weekend), while ERA is 10th. Most of the starts at home have been good lately, but I would still say a front line SP would make a big difference.
    Giants lack of pop–51 HRs, dang near last in the league—-is kind of alarming. The original projections made here a while ago for big 4 (Pence Pablo Posey Belt) have yet to materialize. Btw them they have 35 HRs in the Giants 75 games, with Pence the only guy in double figures. A healthy Pablo hopefully picks this up and Belt starts to hit more like he did second half of last year, and both elevate their .750-ish OPS..
    According to what I just read SF still isn’t sure Gaudin makes the Tuesday start; not sure who the alternative would be. Beware of Hanley too–he got 6 hits in the get away DH vs. Yanks and has a few bombs lately including today off Street.

    • Nipper said, on June 23, 2013 at 10:05 pm

      Pablo never stays healthy. It’s always something. Depending on Pablo is like depending on the stock market. Good luck!

      • chipower9 said, on June 24, 2013 at 12:39 pm

        Sure, there are dips and rises in the stock market, but the overall return since the inception is 11.31 percent.

  5. eddacker said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:54 am

    I want a front line starter, one that goes 10-0 in say, 12 starts

  6. Macdog said, on June 24, 2013 at 7:27 am

    If Sabes can pull off a deal for a starter, I hope he does better than this: http://tinyurl.com/mxcxogm

  7. willedav said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:22 am

    Interesting stats on Giants pitching: 11th in team ERA at 4.07. Team right behind them at 4.08 has Kathmandu as home base, which we will visit soon without having to endure any of world famous taxi rides. SF has given up 72 HRs, 20 more than we have hit. while other stats are in middle of pack, such as BA against, Giants have issued second most walks in the league. Only pirates have walked more but they have given up 60 less earned runs and are near top of league in ERA.

  8. Alleykat said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:30 am

    I’m all for a starting pitcher and a Leftfielder.Jeremy Hellickson and Josh Willingham will due.
    Just don’t Torres will hold up.
    Pitchers,Cain,Bum,Lincecum,Zito and Hellickson/Vogs
    OF..Willingham,Pence,Blanco,Perez and whoever Peguero or Kishineck for now.

    • chipower9 said, on June 24, 2013 at 12:42 pm

      Certainly one of my all-time favorite Giant 2nd basemen.

  9. James said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:50 am

    Another way to appreciate just how much the the SPs have underperformed: subtract one loss and add one win to the lines of Cain, Bumgarner, and two to Vogelsong prior to the Marlins series. Losing 3 of 4 to the Marlins would be seen as one of those aberrations most good teams endure during a season, rather than another sign that this may in fact be a 500 team. Unless the starters collectively lower their ERAs about a half run, Sandoval and Casilla are unlikely to make a significant difference. Pagan’s sparks aren’t gonna do shit, either.

    • zumiee said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:30 am

      Well, if we’re debating which sucks more, the offense or pitching, then….that’s a depressing debate. 😦

      • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 10:04 am

        Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think James is a arguing that. He’s saying the starters suck so badly that a better pen and hitting won’t be enough unless the starting pitchers step up. He does neglect to note that they have…
        Whether it’s coincidence or planning, keep it up: Zito 10 home starts, 5 road starts…
        We’ll hit, and Panda’s retuirn will help the whole LU…
        Hmmmm…I like Crain, Craig likes Crain, Chuck likes Crain..what does it mean? We’re not getting Crain…

        Goodies from the Hit List:

        “Kevin Frandsen’s pinch-hit game-ending homer on Saturday was the Phillies first of its kind since 364 days prior, when Jim Thome did it. Those two baseball players, so much alike.”

        “‘Chris Capuano is healthy and throwing well, so they might have a chance,’ he said with a totally serious face.”

    • Flavor said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:38 am

      their offense sucks lately because, obviously, it’s not *their* offense. No Panda, no pagan, Scoots and Craw are playing with one hand and Torres is less than himself with a bum knee.
      Too many days straight of Perez, Abreu, Arias, Noonan, etc… will kill off any offense………

      • zumiee said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:46 am

        Good point.

    • James said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:47 am

      There actually is no debate. The offense has again exceeded expectations. Had the pitchers performed to half their reputation until now, normal dips in offensive productivity wouldn’t be as concerning as they are.

      Offense is again down this year in the NL. The pitching is 100% to blame for the team’s current sub-par record.

      • Flavor said, on June 24, 2013 at 10:05 am

        why do you think the offense has “exceeded” expectations?

      • James said, on June 24, 2013 at 10:27 am

        Because St. Louis, Colorado, Cincinnati, and Arizona would not have more runs scored than the Giants do, if any of those teams played at ATT.

      • Flavor said, on June 24, 2013 at 10:32 am

        I see. 4.24 runs a game isn’t exceeding expectations it’s about what the majority of folks thought they’d score.
        But I see your point

  10. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:33 am

    That Hardball Times stuff is crazy

    1946 Nine members of the Spokane Indians die when their bus plunges into a ravine. Jack Lohrke left the bus at the previous stop (he’d been ordered to a new team), earning him the nickname Lucky Lohrke.

    1958 The Dodgers sign amateur free agent Ron Fairly.

    1963 The Washington Senators purchase Don Zimmer from the Dodgers.

    1996 Chili Davis gets his 2,000th hit.

  11. zumiee said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:37 am

    A friend of mine the other day called Mijares and Machi “Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum,” and whilst that’s a bit unfair, I understand his frustration.

  12. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:42 am

    For all the shit the starters get, they’ve done well in June (mostly):

    Timmy 1-2 2.92
    Gaudin 2-0 3.38
    Cainer 1-2 3.58
    Bummie 2-0 3.60
    Zits 0-2 5.79

    Zits got hammered on the road, but pitched well enough at home.

  13. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 10:50 am

    The point being, for all the struggles of the starters earlier, the pen is struggling now.

    • James said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:03 am

      Just as with the offense, the pen has still pitched well enough over the whole season to grant them some slack. Conversely, the starters June performance isn’t nearly good enough to compensate for their previous sins. The collective 3.70 June ERA is barely adequate.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:05 am

        But it’s good enough if it continues.

      • James said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:11 am

        Assuming pen and offense are steady state, yeah, that should do the trick.

  14. blade3colorado said, on June 24, 2013 at 10:51 am

    Kat, Hellickson has just three quality starts in his past 11 outings, sporting a 6.24 ERA, 1.36 WHIP and .289 opponents’ BA. The only credit I would give him is that he has not been walking anybody in each of his past four starts . . . Hellickson has regressed big time this year.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:04 am

      And Willingham is at .216 with a 15 percent LD% (5th worst in AL ) and 25% pop up (worst in AL)…if he keeps it up, we may see Gary Brown yet- maybe even this this year.

  15. snarkk said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:04 am

    Offense has been down on this homestand, if not a little earlier, since these injuries. You can’t win scoring 8 runs or whatever it was against even the Marlins in a 4 game set. Starting pitching has been good for a while now, they can’t score much. And, the mid Pen sucks. If Gaudin goes back into the Pen because they get another starter, that helps. And Casilla is supposedly back in a few weeks, earlier than they expected. From the look of him playing his rehab stint, Pablo missed his Weight Watchers meetings while he was on the DL. Hopefully, with him back, they can avoid an implosion on this long roadie…

  16. Flavor said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:14 am

    Our offense looked bad vs the Marlins because it wasn’t our offense. Conversely, we were pitching against a pretty shitty offense so our four games of perceived starting pitching success vs the Marlins might not be what we thought it was….

    • snarkk said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:21 am

      It doesn’t help that Posey and Pence bats have been pretty AWOL the last week except for Pence’s HR yesterday. Maybe Panda being back helps them re-start..

    • blade3colorado said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:33 am

      The small sample size, along with going against the hapless Marlins doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy feeling either insofar as our starting pitching beginning to improve. Yesterday, I gave the example of the rookie, Marcel Ozuna. This is what I posted, “He was just 2-for-31 at the plate over his last eight games prior to Thursday’s game with us. Although he sat that game, Ozuna had the pinch-hit two-run single against Affeldt to give the Marlins the 2-1 victory. Fast forward to this afternoon, he was a major pain in the ass to the GMen this series, accounting for 1 SB, 2 runs, and 6 RBIs.”

      Yeah, I have to see how we do in the next couple of series before I say that the starting pitching is hitting on all cylinders and not sputtering (any longer).

    • James said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:55 am

      OTOH, teams go through series like these, even while at full strength. Having 5 runners thrown out in the bases probably dinged the offense more than the scrubs’ playing time did.

      • James said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:56 am


  17. snarkk said, on June 24, 2013 at 11:22 am

    Krukow said this morning on radio that he thought (not guaranteed) Gaudin will not take his start in LA, his elbow is bothering him still from that hit ball, so Kickham might be called to duty…

  18. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Well hell, it’s chicken and egg. The starters leaving early leads to pen overuse leads to blown holds leads to late inning losses.

  19. twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    The starting pitching was coming around before the Miami series and I’m pretty that even the most pessimistic among us knew that they wern’t as bad as they looked earlier, anyway.

  20. chipower9 said, on June 24, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    I think the most obvious need is for a starting pitcher, followed closely by bullpen help. As others have mentioned, if we get a starter, then Gaudin goes back to the pen. Casilla is due back in a few weeks, and that helps. But I still have no confidence in Mijares or Machi (Machi was decent for a while, but of late the wheels have fallen off).

    I am less worried about the offense. They have hit a rough patch, and some guys are hurt. And I am not concerned about the lack of HRs. This is not the first year the Giants have sucked at hitting HRs, but they have still managed to do what it takes to win.

    WillieD – in reference to your earlier question, who goes if Gaudin cannot, it will be Kickham. The night Gaudin took the shot on his elbow, they mentioned on the post-game that Kickham was on the same schedule as Gaudin.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 1:08 pm

      I think that between Kickham and Vogelsong, the starter is here already, Casilla is due back in a *couple* weeks,I think. Add Crain and the pen will be as good as it’s ever been. They just have guys pitching in roles they’re not up to.

  21. snarkk said, on June 24, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    Somebody tell Affeldt that if he faces Puig in the bottom of the 8th, a knee high fastball on the outside half is not a particularly good idea…

  22. twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    Ozuna is very good young hitter. He’d been slumping but it’s not like it dropped him into the .220’s, he was still hitting in the .280s. I think Baseball America had him in their top 100 and he’s considered to have HR power that he’s not even tapped into yet. I’d take him in a heartbeat. The double yesterday on a pitch in on his hands after driving balls to the opposite field earlier in the series, was super impressive..

    • blade3colorado said, on June 24, 2013 at 3:35 pm

      What is your point? Are you contradicting my earlier post? My point is that he got healthy on Giants pitching, after slumping badly for a month, which apparently you disagree with. Fine.

      Also, I wont look for the post, but I told everyone here that news – about how good Ozuna was – a couple of months ago. I also mentioned Segura. I had Ozuna on a couple of FL teams as well before anyone knew about him . . . he did well as you noted above, then nosedived and I got rid of him. Besides being a rookie, he hasn’t displayed any power. Very few FL teams have him on their teams at the moment (and rightly so).

  23. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Say what you will about the Marlins, but they sure draft well. Nolasco, Ozuna, Stanton, Cishek, Morrison, Fernandez on down, they have some good young players.

    • salty said, on June 24, 2013 at 1:49 pm

      I believe they have had their share of first rd busts, too. Remember Josh Booty? Taylor Tankersley? Brett Sinkbeil?

      • salty said, on June 24, 2013 at 1:50 pm


  24. PawlieKokonuts said, on June 24, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    I voted with the majority. Speaking of majority, a friend once described death as “he [or she] joined the majority.” I imagine the math would be bear that out. She attributed the phrase to W.H. Auden, but I’ve never been able to verify that. I’m still in a fan’s slump, though personally pleased with my Cooperstown event. Maybe I’m just tired.

  25. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    The baseball draft is a major crapshoot. Everyone busts out. The draft success rate has to be somewhere in the mid to high teens. The Marlins have had more than their share of solid drafts. Christ, name a solid OFer drafted by the Giants in the past 20 years. . .

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on June 24, 2013 at 2:15 pm

      Ort-rod? jk

    • blade3colorado said, on June 24, 2013 at 5:03 pm

      You have to go back to 1968 (3 years after the initial MLB draft) . . . Gary Matthews. Yeah, a bit of a dry spell we’re having.

  26. twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    1. Gregor Blanco (L) CF

    2. Marco Scutaro (R) 2B

    3. Buster Posey (R) C

    4. Hunter Pence (R) RF

    5. Pablo Sandoval (S) 3B

    6. Joaquin Arias (R) SS

    7. Andres Torres (S) LF

    8. Brandon Belt (L) 1B

    9. Madison Bumgarner (R) P

    • chipower9 said, on June 24, 2013 at 3:52 pm

      Damn, I miss Pagan. I really appreciate all that Vungo has done for our club in the past, but just cringe when I see his name on the line-up card of late. And while young Perez has his qualities, he can’t seem to take a pitch. Damn, I miss Pagan.

      Did I mention that I miss Pagan?

      Let’s get things off on the good foot with Big Country!

      BEAT L.A.!

      • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 3:58 pm

        “Did I mention that I miss Pagan?”

      • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:08 pm

        BTW, Bozo called me out for calling Andres “Vungo” when it’s really “Yungo”. He’s right and I knew that but it had been “Vungo” in the press guide and although he later corrected it, Vungo sort of stuck. But I’ll be calling him “Yungo” now because that’s his preference. .

  27. Alleykat said, on June 24, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    Belt batting 8th,that’s the just fucked up.No freaking 1B man should bat that low.
    Jesus christ that spot is reserved for Whitey only!

    • blade3colorado said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:03 pm

      That is POTD. Almost on the ground laughing . . . Good one Kat.

      • blade3colorado said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:04 pm

        Or I should be on the ground laughing.

      • unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:35 pm

        I was gonna say, ‘almost on the ground’? Are you in transit?

  28. snarkk said, on June 24, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    Posey needs to gear up for some power on this trip. 3 dingers in 10 games would be nice, with a bunch of doubles thrown in…

  29. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    A Belt sighting would be nice as well . . .

    • Alleykat said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:46 pm

      The only sight Belt feels is Bochy’s cleat up his “ASS” Unca.

    • Nipper said, on June 24, 2013 at 5:16 pm

      May as well have suspenders.

  30. Flavor said, on June 24, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    love the LU–Blanco is our best LO batter, Posey locking in the #3 with Pence at clean up and Pablo where he belongs at #5 has got me doing an unexpected 4:49pm knowing dude head nod. I don’t give a shit about Belt batting 8th, there are 3 reliable guys in front of him who might be on base for him to drive in. And if he has to, take a walk and let Bum blast a double up there ass to remind them not to pitch around Belt next time………

    • Nipper said, on June 24, 2013 at 5:20 pm

      What about a 4:49 AM “knowing dude head nod”…..? Okay? “Shit” and “ass”? Such language!

  31. salty said, on June 24, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    First time Belt has faced Hung Ryu.

  32. zumiee said, on June 24, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    ““Did I mention that I miss Pagan?”


    Why? Because he had strong second half last year, and helped carry the team. Obviously I can’t predict what he would be doing now, but it would be nice to know, one way or the other. The injury cheats us out of knowing, in the same way we were cheated out of knowing how the team would have done in 2011 with a full season of Posey.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on June 24, 2013 at 7:13 pm

      I miss Pagan. As to why, I offer no data-driven reason. Do I have to have a reason? I’ll answer myself: of course not.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 7:25 pm

      Well, he has been a disappointment this year and his replacements are every bit as inspiring as Crazy Horse.

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on June 24, 2013 at 7:36 pm

        He has not disappointed me in the least, but that is a function of my own expectations. Juan Perez will be a hybrid of Fred Lewis and Darren Ford and Eugenio Velez: that’s my expectation.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 7:40 pm

        My 7:25 was a reply to Z.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:09 pm

        He’s a ten million dollar guy who has played like the 2 million guy, that’s all.

  33. PawlieKokonuts said, on June 24, 2013 at 7:22 pm

    Fucksake. Already a HR by Puig. PUKE.

    • James said, on June 24, 2013 at 7:24 pm

      My nascent dislike is entirely data-driven.

  34. twinfan1 said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    JSanchez finally joined the Isotopes and promptly got rocked again- 3 IP 7 H 6 ER. I fear that the end is near.

    • zumiee said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:35 pm

      Who cares.

  35. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    Fucking LOB up the wazoo. I’m so sick of this shit.

  36. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    4 walks and 7 hits in 5 innings and the G’s have amassed ONE run. Fucking epic. This is 2008 shit.

    Torres is comporting himself nicely in the field though.

  37. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    There is a new thread, I just discovered . . .

  38. unca_chuck said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:01 pm


  39. PawlieKokonuts said, on June 24, 2013 at 9:23 pm

    Oh. It’s on ESPN2. Gawd, Aaron Boone is unlistenable and so is Rick Sutcliffe or whoever it is. Gag. They are awful.

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