A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Invincible Kershaw

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on June 27, 2013

Timmy ran his losing streak to Kershaw to 0-5. Seriously, how does anyone ever beat this guy? How was last night the first game he’s won since May 20th? He’s 6-5? He should be 11-0. I have a vague recollection of Voggy beating him twice in one season. Could that be true? Or was that a dream?

125 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. blade3colorado said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:03 am

    No idea about Kershaw and his problems. Besides, “winning” is one of those categories that can have more to do with luck (and other factors) than anything else, e.g., Charlie Sheen and Yu Darvish. 🙂

    My concern is with the “not ready for prime time” Tiny Tim. Lincecum dropped to 4-8 on the year and finished with a line of four runs on 10 hits with a walk and four strikeouts over 5.1 innings. Yeah, he did manage to keep his walks in check (thank God for one miracle, but the Lord taketh away in other stats, e.g., hits). The 10 hits matched a season-high that was set May 1st against the Snakes.

    This start was a step backwards (again) for Tiny Tim, after he had showed signs of progress over his 2 previous starts. This pattern of inconsistency has become his MO all year. Oh, one other thing – guess who he goes against in his next start? Yep, the Reds next Tuesday. In short, it wont get easier.

  2. salty said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:11 am

    Hector not cutting it is another discouraging development. I’m surprised no one is kvetching about watching Quiroz hit. So far, he’s looked worse than the much maligned Whiteside.
    He’s just one of a handful of Giants better farmhands to disappoint. Brown, Hembree, Heston, Runzler and Peguero were all thought ready to contribute if needed, yet seem to have hit a wall in their development and actually regressed.
    Good news is Perez, Dunning, Rosario and Kickham have stepped up and performed admirably.

    • salty said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:39 am

      Could add Kieschnick and Panik to that list.

      And aside from what they could have contributed on the field, they also could give Sabean more flexibililty in trading for starting pitching and a upgrade in the OF.

  3. blade3colorado said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:47 am

    I am going to the game Friday night. Other than the Bums, everyone in the Division is playing under .500 ball the last 10 games. As I’ve indicated in the past, the Rockies are hapless on the road (see . . . http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_23546152/michael-cuddyer-hrs-naught-red-sox-blast-rockies) and yet, they are in 2nd place. Now, they are at home, where they will likely turn into Superman and put the Clark Kent disguise in the closet. Go figure.

  4. twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 10:20 am

    Whitey couldn’t hit *or* catch after 2010. Quiroz is good defensively at least…
    As to farmhands hitting a wall, that’s the way of things. As the level of competion gets steeper, only the strong survive. I’m sure we all see how few actual prospects we have at Fresno. Maybe 6 or 8 guys ever have a cup o’ Joe up here , maybe 3 or 4 of those go on to what might be called a “career” in the Majors, and of those maybe we get 1 or 2 “real deals”.
    Even by the time the AA level is reached, there’s not much left in the way of legit big league prospects. the rookie league and the 3 “A” leagues weed out most of the riff raff and even in the lowest levels most on the roster are already known to be just roster fillers. It’s a tough road to the bigs and the guys here have all done enough already to seperate themselves from the pack.

  5. Macdog said, on June 27, 2013 at 10:23 am

    The World Champs are 2 games under .500 and closer to last place than first. The Pittsburgh Pirates are tied for the best record in all of MLB. Is this also some bizarre dream?

  6. Alleykat said, on June 27, 2013 at 10:36 am

    4 Pitchers I do like in the farms are Crick,Stratton and Heston and Damm I’m drawing a blank on that Spanish guy or Puerto Rican who’s pitching at AA I believe?

  7. Alleykat said, on June 27, 2013 at 10:38 am

    Oh I think its Martin Augusto.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 10:57 am

      I think Augusto is a fine young chef…Martin Agosta is our guy 😉
      He’s at Augusta…might be at San Jose by August..
      Seriously now: great numbers thus far: 7-2 2.20 ERA 69.2 IP 44 H 29 BB 89 K .Timmy type frame, 92-94 fastball, St. Mary’s kid…

  8. willedav said, on June 27, 2013 at 10:57 am

    As blade mentioned, Sherpas and the others all lost. Oswalt is now 0-2 with an ERA over 7. Pads pen blew a 3 run lead and they forgot to score for last 7 innings of a 7-5 L in 13 to phils. DBax got 4 hits vs. Nats; Miley Cyrus falls to 4-7, the day after Cahill got slapped around again. Yes it is disheartening to watch us lose to LA and still plagued by the one bad inning, but Dodgers are still in last. Giants are 3.5 out.
    Lincecum left some pitches up to ethier and uribe with 2 strikes but a lot of the hits weren’t hammered. With a little help from Hector (why he is here I don’t understand) his line would have been a lot better.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 10:59 am

      Willie, I’ll be surprised if he’s with the big club more than a day or two more.

  9. zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:01 am

    Most of the games Tim lost to Kershaw were in 2011, and they usually had the score of 1-0 or 2-1.
    The Giants had some nice games against Kershaw last year. The best one, and most important, being the 2-1 victory when Pill hit a 2-run HR off of him. It sent a strong message early in the season that things were going to be different that year, and they were. Didn’t Kershaw have a losing record against the Giants last year, something like 2-3?

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:14 am

      I think I saw that before last night Timmy had a minus 3 ERA in his matchups against Kershaw. And you’re right about last year as well- Kershaw was 2-3 with a 1.62 ERA….
      BTW, if you missed my comment ( I think you were at the game that day )Thanks for the nice review of “Of Mikes anmd Men…” I’m glad you enjoyed it.

      • zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:25 am

        It’s a very cool and informative book; thanks for recommending it. It was great reading your dad’s insights into the profession. His quote about Cosell totally nailed it. Cosell was all about drawing attention to himself instead of the game. Your dad was all about the game itself.

  10. snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:03 am

    My view is that Sabean should not trade the pitcher store in the low minors for Nolasco, maybe one to include in a deal for Norris or similar that you can control at least another season. This pitching staff needs to be replenished next year and year after. Wheeler would have been in here to help replenish, but we know all about that. The pitching window is closing quickly, if not already shut. A #3 or #4 added now will help put the staff and Pen back where it belongs, and with Casilla & Voggy back and Tim going to the Pen, things may right themselves enough to compete for the Div title in a weak division. But, Sabes should be smart enough to hold onto several of the top starter prospects down below, otherwise with a minor league organization not brimming with hitter prospects, things look seriously lean, IMO, for the next half decade…

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:16 am

      Timmy going to the pen seems to be more of a blogger wish than any likely reality.

    • blade3colorado said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:21 am

      Chi, Paulinasia, and I discussed this early this morning (before the new thread appeared), where I said:

      “Giants? Well, if this statement is accurate, I don’t think the Giants have ANY interest, especially with the apparent “price” bandied about with regard to any possible deal being made . . .

      “THE PRICE OF DOING BUSINESS RIGHT NOW IS PROHIBITIVE. WE’RE NOT GOING TO BE DOING BUSINESS. WE’D SPEND ALL OUR MONEY OR CLEAN OUT THE FARM SYSTEM.”
      – GM Brian Sabean, indicating he will wait until closer to the July 31 trade deadline to pull the trigger on any deals.”

      Reply
      paulinasia said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:32 am (Edit)
      Word out of Miami was trading Nolasco would mostly just be a salary dump, they’re not looking for prospects. That sounds strange, but it is Miami, afterall. I would have no problem with the Gints just buying the guy outright (Sabes said money is not an issue), if that’s true, and the sooner the better. If it’s not true, then yeah, no trade will be happening anytime soon.

      Reply
      chipower9 said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:40 am (Edit)
      This could just be Sabes putting on his best poker face. Unless the Bums seriously outbid him, I think he will pursue this trade aggressively, as it is readily apparent he will be a buyer this year. Agree with Paul’s comments that the Fish are simply looking for a salary dump.

      I personally like Nolasco and think the Giants could make a play for him or Garza. I don’t like Norris, but if he’s the alternative to what we have now in the 4 or 5 pitching slots, I’m down with that. Regarding Nolasco, this is why I like him . . . He has had 4 years of ERAs that sucked in comparison to his FIP, (which some say is a better indicator of a pitcher’s true talent). This season his ERA of 3.68 has finally come in line with his FIP of 3.55. As paulinasia has pointed out, his $11.5 million salary in the final year of his three-year deal this season may be a salary dump, so the improvement in his ERA has to be stoking the fire of his many potential suitors. Finally, some people might think that the Fish’s pitching friendly home park has a lot to do with his improved ERA, but that doesn’t make sense because his road ERA of 3.28 is significantly better than his home ERA of 4.06. Anywho, like I said this morning, Sabean is a conundrum and I wonder if he said what he said to confuse people of his real intentions?????????????

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:31 am

        If there’s to be an early deal for Nolasco, there will never be a better time than now, before his scheduled Friday start. He can open the series in Cincinnati instead of Kickham , who can complete his season in Fresno.

      • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:47 am

        “Buying” Nolasco is the best alternative, obviously. He’s a free agent in the offseason, so smart teams shouldn’t be willing to give up real prospects to get him. Some team may not be smart…

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:59 am

        I don’t think that Sabean would do it any other way than the salary dump deal with a mid level propspect or two kicked in.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 12:15 pm

        I think there’s a real good chance he’ll be pitching for a California team by the 4th. I didn’t think we’d do anything until late July but I really don’t think we want him going to the Bums, who according to several reports are hot for him. If the Dodgers do get him, then I think Craig’s favorite, Norris, is definitely in play. I’d still prefer that we wait and see how the next 3-4 weeks play out but Sabean just might feel he has to act now, especially in light of the sweep.

      • chipower9 said, on June 27, 2013 at 12:45 pm

        Steve – my comment about “Sabes putting on his best poker face” was in regards to your post about the cost of doing business being prohibitive.

        If the Fish truly just want to dump salary (and don’t expect much in return), and now the Bums are in the mix, I suppose it will come down to who has the sweetest package. I don’t see Sabes cleaning out the panty of any top prospects to land Nolasco. I have a gut feeling that he ends up with us…hope my intuition is right.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 12:54 pm

        “ESPN’s Buster Olney tweets that the Dodgers and Marlins have indeed made progress in talks for Nolasco. One source tells Olney that there’s a 70 percent chance the deal gets done.”

      • paulinasia said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:19 pm

        Chi.. “cleaning out the panty” …? Very funny typo…

      • chipower9 said, on June 27, 2013 at 3:52 pm

        Hey Paul…I was wondering if anyone would catch that (panty)…NOT. DOH…fat fingers strike, again. LOL…

  11. chipower9 said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:05 am

    Flavor – you are not dreaming…Vogelsong beat Kershaw twice last year (2-0 and 2-1).

    • Flavor said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:52 am

      thanks. I knew it was once and hazily remember it as twice.

  12. zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 11:21 am

    I was wrong about Micky Mantle; I always thought what a rip it was that he was exempted from the draft, when guys like Mays were drafted and lost a couple of baseball seasons. I’d always heard that it was because Mantle’s injured knee in ’51 was now a “trick knee.” He couldn’t get drafted, yet he was healthy enough to help the Yankees win the World Series year after year.
    Well, the knee was bad, but he had been exempted BEFORE that, according to a Mantle biography I’m reading. Mantle was born with a rare bone disorder, that could make a simple broken bone injury a potential life-threatening chance of infection. In fact, he almost died from it while in high school, when he was injured playing football.
    The military very much would have drafted him if not for the bone disease. It was a disease fully documented by x-rays.

    • xoot said, on June 27, 2013 at 12:29 pm

      I thought Mantle had osteomylitis (sp?).

      • zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:16 pm

        Yeah, that’s it, thanks. I couldn’t remember the spelling. There’s another “e” in there: “osteomyelitis.”

  13. Flavor said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    I really don’t want the Dodgers to get Nolasco. He’s pitching very well this year and, as we all know, is lights out at ATT. I wasn’t sweatin’ their stupid trade with the Red Sox last year but I would definitely sweat that. It would almost guarantee that Sabean would have to go get a starting pitcher.

  14. paulinasia said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    Right, and *if* getting Nolasco only involves money, no prospects, JUST DO IT already. If he goes to LA or another team, Sabes will definitely have to give up players to get any other pitcher, not a good thing at this point. Of course, only Sabes’ hairdresser knows for sure…

  15. paulinasia said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Jeez, I must be regressing to sheer childishness, but I’m still laughing at Chi’s “I don’t see Sabes cleaning out the panty of any top prospects” typo … 🙂

    • zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm

      He said something about a “sweet package,” too.
      🙂

      • chipower9 said, on June 27, 2013 at 3:54 pm

        Yeah…the “sweet package” in the panites…THAT’S what I’m talkin’ about…

  16. Nipper said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:25 pm

    When are you guys going to realize this season is going down the proverbial commode? It doesn’t matter what the Dodgers do. They still have problems. All the teams in the West have problems. Now you’re welcome to all the angst your brains can handle. Me? I’m going to jump on my bicycle and enjoy the rest of the day. Good day!

    • zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:28 pm

      Enjoy the ride.

    • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:32 pm

      Nippy, glad to see you’re venturing into the world outside the van…

  17. snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    If its LA vs the Giants in the Nolasco sweepstakes, it’s a no brainer that LA wins that. They’re not even close to being done throwing money away…

  18. blade3colorado said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    Hey Nip, I hope you are going to the Flapalooza (multiple Roman numerals . . . forgot how many we are up to). I want to put a face* to these wry comments. 🙂

    * Right now I am picturing Norman Bates or Lewis Skolnick.

  19. snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Kershaw is invincible only to the Giants, apparently. He’s lost 5 times to somebody else. Maybe the Giants should study those losses for some tips on how to beat him. Scoring more than 1 or 2 runs every time might help. In his 5 losses, his ERA is 4.55, WHIP is 1.52 with 14 BB. In his 6 wins, it’s 0.54, 0.52 and 4. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=kershcl01&year=2013&t=p

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 2:09 pm

      Well, he was 2-3 against us last year despite a 1.62 ERA.

    • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 2:15 pm

      I was speaking about BF’s thread re: Timmy …

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 3:38 pm

      You asked how to beat Kershaw. We have done that, as in 2012, by out dueling him. And you added stuff to your post after I responded.

      • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:58 pm

        You’re FOS as usual…

  20. salty said, on June 27, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    “Right, and *if* getting Nolasco only involves money, no prospects, JUST DO IT already.”

    Taking on his salary is a given, imo. I think you can assume the hangup is about which prospects they are asking for. It’s down to who the Dodgers are willing to part with vs who we or Baltimore or Washington has to offer. Sabes says its prohibitive, I believe he means they are asking for something like a Stratton or Hembree + and he’s perhaps countering with Runzler and Kid Bochy.

    • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 2:27 pm

      I wouldn’t trade anybody for Nolasco unless the Giants have secret assurances from his agent that he will sign with Giants for a certain amount or even a range of amounts in the offseason. That kind of thing probably violates the Basic Agreement or something, but it’s probably done fairly often. No more trading of young arms below for a 2 1/2 month rental, especially a guy who is basically a #3 pitcher..

      • salty said, on June 27, 2013 at 2:37 pm

        Yeah, Sabes usually won’t give up much for rentals. He did for Beltran but that was an exception. Obviously no idea what the Marlins are asking for but they know the G’s are desperate. With other teams bidding, the Marlins no doubt are trying to “sweeten the package” and “clean the giants panty”. 😉

  21. twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Well, presuming we don’t get Nolasco, the best pitcher who might be might be available is Cliff Lee, hands down, IMO. If we part ways with Timmy and Zito, we have plenty of bucks to afford him. Including Nolasco, my top 4 without regard to cost are:

    1. Lee age 34 9-2 2.51, signed thru 2015 at 25 million per with 27.5 vesting option for 2016 ( Details at his BR page )
    2. Gallardo age 27, 6-7 4.20, signed thru 2014 at 11.25 million ( club option for 2015, probably voided if traded)
    3. Norris age 28, 5-7 3.60, 3 million ,arb eligible 2014, free agent 2016
    4. Nolasco age 30, 4-7 3.68, 11.5 million free agent after this year

    What it would take:
    Lee: the word is “astronomical,” for us I’ll say that means Crick, Hembree, Wiliamson, Dominguez
    Gallardo: Peguero, Osich, Pill
    Norris: Blackburn, choice of Peguero or Brown, Duvall, Heston
    Nolasco: Dominguez, Heston

    My choice: Gallardo ( and as someone said, we get a power bat to boot)

    All of this is IMHO…

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:12 pm

      I consider Lee a 1, Gallardo a 2.5, Norris a 3, Nolasco a 3.5.. Lee would give us the best chance to go the show this year but that’s a lot of bucks and a lot of talent to give up. Still, I’d be just fine with it for the reason above- he’s the best pitcher and gives us the best chance this year. Win today, worry tomorrow.

  22. xoot said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez, 26 year old Cuban pitcher currently giving performances for a few mlb team scouts in Mexico, also is on the market. Dodgers sent three scouts this week to watch him pitch.

  23. WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    Has anyone considered the fact that the Giants could become “sellers” at some point in the next month? With a farm system ranked 28th, and despite a few potential pitching gems in the lower levels, the current system is about as devoid of talent (especially offensive) as we have seen in years. Not to say that I am content with 2 WS in 3 years, but I for one wouldn’t complain if Sabean decide to trade a few (maybe several) pieces to try and replenish the sytem moving forward. Of course in doing so, you obviously run the risk of alienating a fan base that has contributed to the longest sellout streak in baseball. But would it be possible for the Giants to auction off a Sandoval, Pence, Lincecum or Romo for some position player prospects that could come in handy when the Cricks, and Stratton’s hit the bigs in 2015? By selling off a few of these pieces, couldn’t Bochy keep the team at least competetive in the weakest division in baseball for the next couple of season?. If not, the team could continue to struggle with the current players in place, and in two years were left watching the has beens of what was once a dynasty that wasn’t meant to be.

    • SanDawg said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:47 pm

      Yes, that thought has crossed my mind, but I don’t like it. I totally agree that the pantry seems pretty bare right now, but I want to play out this year with all those guys and see what happens—even if we don’t add a Nolasco or another pitcher. And I still hold out hope that we can re-sign Pence. Already the talent level the Dodgers have in the OF totally dwarfs us. Could you imagine if you took Pence out of the equation?

    • zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:48 pm

      That would be a pretty grim scenario, IMO. But I can see your point.
      Hopefully the Giants have enough to make the playoffs this season. As a fan, I’m not at all mentally prepared for rebuild mode.

    • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:47 pm

      I wouldn’t rule out a “selling” mode for the Giants if they don’t turn this around when the pitching comes off the DL. The starting pitching is not going to dominate like it did 2010-2012, so unless the hitting comes around, a division win seems to me the ceiling this year, and that’s far from a lock under current course and speed. I just don’t see what the Giants could “sell” that many would be interested in, other than their young pitching in the low minors. Belt wouldn’t fetch too much, and they’re not going to trade Crawford. Other than that, I don’t see much that’s attractive to sell. IMO their biggest need is OFers that can make a difference at the plate…

    • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 7:42 am

      I, like others, see your point, but like Zumie…I in no way am prepared to go into a total rebuild mode.

      Good to see you here again, Wilco.

  24. twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    I don’t think there’s even the slightest chance that they wiil sell.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:58 pm

      The pieces being proposed for trading wouldn’t bring enough. And in this division they couldn’t fall of it if they were trying to lose,

      • WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:07 pm

        True, based on contact status Pence wouldn’t bring much in return. Sandoval would likely be the biggest return. Lincecum would bring mid-level prospects at best. Romo could probably fetch a top tier prospect from a bullpen starved club.

  25. zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    I know the word “mindboggling” gets overused, but it truly is mindboggling how Aaron Hernandez flushed his life down the toilet.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:00 pm

      Kind of a bummer for Odin Lloyd, too 😉

      • zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:08 pm

        Yeah, it didn’t pay to hang out with Hernandez.

  26. WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    The problem with the “win today, worry tomorrow” theory is that if you don’t win and those players lose whatever is left of their trade value AND you do not continue to draft like the Cardinals, Braves, and Rays you become the Houston Astros. The Astros made that mistake after having a strong run in the early to mid 2000’s. Then they continued to hold on to the likes of Berkman, Oswalt, and Lee until they had zero trade value. I am not saying that is going to happen to the Giants, but at some point you have to look 2-5 years down the road and position yourself accordingly. Hell the Red Sox in went into full sale mode last year and they came out smelling like roses.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:14 pm

      As i said, the pieces you propose for tading wouldn’t bring enough, IMO. And I think the case for a rebuild is pretty weak. “Win today, worry tomorrow” *IS* Sabean’s responsibilty now.We’re still well positioned for the postseason and it’s his job to get us what we need to have to best shot. That doesn’t mean spend or trade foolishly but no GM should EVER blow off the playoffs one year because what might happen in the future. You have yiour chance, you grab it.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:31 pm

      I don’t dismiss your POV, Joe. I’m counting Sabean to be wise in maintaining the proper balance.

    • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 7:45 am

      I have a lot of confidence that Sabean, Tidrow, Evans and crew have a “strategic vision” that looks out 3-5 years, in addition to the tactical plan that maximizes their chances to “win now.” Again…I am in no way ready for a sell mode/rebuild. Can’t recall who said it, but I agree…I want to see them play this year out with the current pieces (adding a pitcher, etc., or not).

  27. snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:07 pm

    How is it the Giants farm system is so poorly stocked? You can’t argue with 2 wins out of 3 WS years, but you can definitely argue about what’s in store for the future. And, it looks pretty bleak — according to every article that I’ve read that rates minor league organizations. The Cards organization has been in the hunt for pennants essentially for a decade since the Giants 2002 win over them in that NLCS — yet, with lower draft picks due to success, they’ve still got a minor league organization ranked in the top 5. What are the Cards doing that Sabean isn’t?. They manage to consistently draft pitching AND hitting talent that keeps them near the top.
    http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2013-organizational-talent-rankings-list/

    • zumiee said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:13 pm

      I see your point, but the NL Central hasn’t been strong all those 10 years. The division was pretty weak at times. Yes, the NL West hasn’t been strong all the time, either.
      IMO, the Cards don’t have it so much over the Giants. The overall rate of success of both teams is very high. And the final chapter on this season hasn’t been written yet.

      • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm

        Including the 2002 season, the Cards have won their division 6 times, 2nd place twice. 3rd twice, 4th once, last never (won 2 of 3 World Series). Giants have won the division 3 times, 2nd place 3 times, 3rd 3 times, 4th once, last once (won 2 out of 3 World Series). Objectively, the Cards have been the better, more consistent organization from season to season, and still now have one of the top ranked minor league systems despite their low drafting position every year. They must have better scouting and more commitment to finding position players as well as pitching…

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:25 pm

      Well, we graduated some guys who had our system in the top 10. And we have more pitching talent in the minors that I remember in the the nearly 40 years I’ve been here. Here’s what Baseball Prospectus says of them:
      “As members of the Giants pitching staff begin to age, most notably Ryan Vogelsong and Barry Zito, the Giants should have arms waiting in the wings as pitchers like Kyle Crick, Clayton Blackburn, Chris Stratton, Mike Kickham, and Adalberto Mejia continue to develop. The Giants have seemingly maintained a healthy pipeline of pitching talent to augment the big-league staff, both in the rotation and the bullpen, and I don’t see that changing in the coming years.” Neither do I.

      • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:35 pm

        With the Giants packing in revenue from huge licensed goods’ sales from new-found bandwagon fans, sold out seasons, and 2 sold out post season runs to the World Series, the team has to be swimming in revenue = the top 5 or 6 teams in MLB. You would think that translates into heavy investment in scouting and minor league development. If they ARE investing more in that, and supposedly they have, then the results are poor according to the rating services, who have no reason to over or understate their assessments of any particular team. It’s disgraceful that the Giants have a revenue stream that is the envy of all but a handful of teams in MLB, yet have a minor league organization that is now at the bottom of the barrel in talent. The question should be asked why this is so?…

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 6:30 pm

        Well, I think you’re being too pessimistic,Snarkk.. Players who have graduated from the prospect list since 2010 include Posey, MadBum, Crawford, and Belt. That diluted the upper level . Now most of our best prospects are again at the A level,. And although the sytem overall rates poorly, their pitching depth in the system is not rated poorly. John Sickels, one of the very best, also rates their pitching prospects highly.
        “Strengths: Pitching! Kyle Crick, Chris Stratton, Clayton Blackburn are all strong rotation candidates for the future and there are some nice lefties too (Mike Kickham, Steven Okert, Josh Osich, Adalberto Mejia) plus bullpen material.”
        Position players are weaker but we have a solid core already here. We’re in great shape for the future, IMO.

      • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 6:36 pm

        I’m not being pessimistic, IMO, just realistic. These ratings services know much more than I about who is in the systems. You know as well as I that of the handful of top pitching prospects down below, one or maybe two might, might actually end up as a successful starter on our or somebody else’s 25 man. After that, the position player cupboard is pretty thin. If guys like Kieschnick, Peguero and Brown are your top position guys, maybe along with Panik, I don’t see any real game-changing talent there…

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 6:54 pm

        I don’t think a person who ignores the under 30 talent already here is being realistic about our future. And no consistently successful team is built exclusively through the farm, anyway. Sabean has been very good since 2009 at adding to our excellent core of home grown players with the guys to fill in the pieces. He’s had some mistakes, but not too darn many.

      • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:29 pm

        For position guys under 30, Panda and Belt and Posey are the guys. I could see Posey being the only one left by the end of next season. Pablo could be traded this coming offseason for some real pitching talent, if somebody is willing to take on his weight issues. The Giants will have to decide in the offseason whether to re-sign him to a LT deal and risk more weight problems and DL stints, or trade him for an arm, most likely…

      • Alvie said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:09 pm

        Crawford? Belt is going to be a 25 hr guy by next year. He’s not going anywhere.

      • Flavor said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:23 pm

        Alvie– not if Kuip has anything to say about it….

    • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 8:43 am

      I have read through all the posts on the farm situation. I get it that the Giants, more times than not, are probably not at the overall top of the heap on ratings for the farm system. Sure the Cards have won a couple more division titles. Are they “significantly” better than the Giants, overall? I do not think so.

      Michael makes some good points about many of our quality position players (Belt, Crawford Pablo, Posey, etc.) having graduated, and about how Sabean is good at filling in the pieces. The Giants club who has won it all two of the past three did it predominantly with pitching. Pitching is the current strength of our farm system. I really don’t think the fact that the Giants are currently 28th in farm systems ratings is going to translate into them sucking for the next few years.

      Your minor league system is just one component of building a quality competitive organization. While the Giants may not be a consistent stalwart there, I do trust Sabean, Tidrow, Evans, and their scouts to do what is required to make the team competitive.

  28. WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 5:19 pm

    Down here in Houston, the Astros are hoping that their 2nd year GM Jeff Luhnow, formerly director of scouting for the Cardinals will bring some of that magic touch to H-Town. So far, so good. The system has gone from dead last to #9 and many beleive after this years draft, they will move into the top 3. Not sure if that is worth the cost of possibly four straight 100 loss seasons…Uh no.

  29. snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 6:09 pm

    MLB. com’s top 100 prospects has no Giants in the top 70, and only 2 in the top 100. Crick is at 76, Brown at 86. Cards have 5 in the top 100, 4 in the top 70. All the other West Div. teams have 3 or more prospects in the top 100…

  30. paulinasia said, on June 27, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    It’s just one of those strange seasons so far. During spring training, if I would’ve been told that going into play on June 27, the Giants were 2 games under .500, I would’ve been extremely disappointed and somewhat dismayed. Yet if I would’ve been told that going into play on June 27, the Giants were within 3-1/2 games of the division lead, I would’ve been fine with that. So…. for now, I’ll go with the latter…

    • snarkk said, on June 27, 2013 at 6:39 pm

      I think the SF performance so far points out how tough it is to repeat a division win, let alone go back to back to get through the NLCS and WS. I do believe that a WS run takes something out of a team for the next season, unless they do replenish in the offseason. The Giants basically brought back the same team…

    • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 8:46 am

      Me, too Paul. And I think that is a healthy perspective. I have said MANY TIMES over the past weeks or months that while the team has scuffled, I still think they are in as good a position to win the West this year as any team. And I still believe they will win the division this year. This is not me being a Polly, but just being a realist and having faith that it will all come together.

  31. James said, on June 27, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    The team that has been brought back has collectively performed about as well as last year with a couple of notable exceptions. Cain and Vogelsong have contributed to a shitload of extra runs allowed this year. That is the biggest difference. Cain is doing a Catfish Hunter imitation, except the latter usually kept his ERA down.

  32. WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    Now that I have my taken my pessimist hat off, I do think Sabean has the potential to pull off a couple deals to pick up some quality middle relievers, which won’t cost more than a couple low-mid level prospects. Add a Nolasco type starter, get some guts healthy and they should be in good shape.

    • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 8:48 am

      Exactly what I have been saying for quite a while now.

  33. paulinasia said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    Well, now past 10pm out here in Phillie land, I get to watch late night baseball televised from the Latrine. I’ll do my best to get the Phils to paint the town red…

  34. twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    Thru 78 games last year, we had scored 326 runs, this year 328. Last year we had given up 346. this year the same-346. Last year we were 44-34, this year 38-40.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:24 pm

      As much it may cause pain to face it- we were very lucky to be ten games over after 78 games last year, with a negative run differential.This year our record more accurately reflects how we’ve played thus far.

      • WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:30 pm

        That might be the most surprising stat of the year….Good stuff.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:30 pm

        I may be wrong about 2012. I hope you didn’t make a bar bet.

  35. blade3colorado said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    “Has anyone considered the fact that the Giants could become “sellers” at some point in the next month? ”

    Although I don’t agree with you Joe, your post is brilliant. Moreover, unlike the rest of us myopic Flappers (fans), you’re thinking “out of the box.” Shit, no one has a crystal ball (or as Zumiee said – the last chapter hasn’t been written yet), so who knows? You could be right. In my opinion, your post is awesome and should be considered for POTD because it makes you think of another possibility. Great post dude!

    • WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:24 pm

      Thanks Steve! Not sure if I would deem it brilliant, but if you want to, I’am not stopping you;)

      • blade3colorado said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:30 pm

        We are so focused on repeating as Champions, that we (or at least I am) can’t see other possibilities. Which reminds me – Twin’s post at 7:11pm and Paulinasia’s post at 6:34pm, reminds me to maintain some perspective about the Giants. I’m usually a “glass half full” sort of dude, but nevertheless, occasionally I need a reminder from the rest of you in regard to my perspective of the Giants.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:26 pm

      Don’t worry, Joe, you always have me to say it sucked 😉
      Seriousy, I thought it was a fine post as well. Sorta.

      • WilcoJoe said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:29 pm

        Ha ha!

  36. paulinasia said, on June 27, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    I do believe, however, that with LA’s injured “stars” starting to return (and perform of late), plus “this Puig guy”, they will start to rise in the standings. Wouldn’t it be interesting if the All Star break sees all West teams tied…

  37. Flavor said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    Yankee thought: I am soooo hoping the Yankees end up paying AROD every single penny of the 10 year, 275 mil deal he signed with them when he was 31. They gave him that stupid deal, fucking pay up. They’ll try to exercise the insurance thing this year and if they do it will look like a victory for them, but that was the dumbest fucking deal ever given in baseball at the time (since surpassed by the Pujols deal and maybe one or 2 more). He opted out of his deal ya dopes, YOU brought him back till he was 41 with that absurd deal. Eat it.

    • Nipper said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:31 pm

      Yummy!

  38. willedav said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    Having a great bunch of *prospects* is all well and good, but at some point they have to actually perform up to mlb caliber. I’m tired of hearing about how their org is head and shoulders above everyone else. We ran them out of dodge in the f-ing rain with their feathers btw their legs last year on the way to the title. They can’t play the flipping cubs and brewers all year.
    The cards pen has been a mess for a few years now and they don’t have a reliable closer. They’ve been shuffling middle IF guys around last few years too to wind up with kozma and descalso. .
    They make mistakes like everyone else–signing furcal (aka glass) to a big contract was surely one. They can have M. Holiday’s act in LF, and I’d rather have Pence than Beltran for $13 million. I’d like to see them try and contend if Yadier Molina missed half a damn year injured too.

    • Flavor said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:37 pm

      prospects are otherwise known as *currency* and it’s disappointing to think that Sabes would let Nolasco or Norris or whoever go to a competitor, and make them better when they could make us better and make them worse, over the cost. The farm system is constantly being replenished, we only have a single chance to win a world series ever year…….

  39. twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    The Boofer has been released…

  40. James said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    I just checked here http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2012-schedule-scores.shtml

    And the numbers through 78 games last year are 312 scored, 296 against by my count. To reiterate my point, the talk of an entire team that is underperforming or in disarray is missing the fact that 2 pitchers have given up about 40-50 more runs than anyone would have expected. The position players have been very good this year.

    I’ve never had much respect for Sabean – he’s probably still an old school nimrod at heart – but I don’t think he is going to panic, and I’m hopeful he finds an arm to stabilize the staff. If so, Cain just needs to bring his ERA in line with his WHIP.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:22 pm

      What do you show for this year?

      • James said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:37 pm

        http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2013-schedule-scores.shtml

        The team was definitely lucky last year with the run differential, but even w/o any luck at this point, they’d be in a much better place with ho-hum pitching that matched last year’s.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm

        It seems that in bouncing between 2012 and 2013 using ESPN’s stat site, I got dizzy and hit my head on the front of my desk, briefly rendering me unconcsious,then awaking to Zeke licking lamb chop drippings from my chin and while in my delirium I thought I was Tom Tango and… Ok, short version I erred on 2012.

      • twinfan1 said, on June 27, 2013 at 9:46 pm

        Night all.

  41. willedav said, on June 28, 2013 at 8:45 am

    Sell mode is kinda scary thought. If SF went that route, Crawford and Posey would likely be only untouchables. OF would be Pagan (untradeable til healthy with that contract) and the kids, Posey goes to 1b with Arias/Noonan at 3b, maybe someone takes a stab at Scut.
    thing is, to me no one these days is giving up young inexpensive (and by definition inexperienced) pitching, not when ricky nolascos of the world are making $13 mil. So unless Giants feel the Surkamps of the team are ready to make 30 starts at back end, you still need at least one more quality arm to lower that run differential, because it’s unlikely you score as many without some combo of belt pence sando in the middle around Posey.
    Otherwise nobody pitches to him, esp at ATT.

  42. twinfan1 said, on June 28, 2013 at 9:04 am

    Selling is just not something that’s going to happpen, simply because this is not a team that needs an overhaul to become competitive. What *could* happen if they fall out of contention in the next few weeks is just that Sabean foregoes deadline dealing and turns his to attention to the free agent market this winter top fill the very holes that the team has.

    • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 9:16 am

      And there will be holes. If Pence is not resigned, that’s a hole. No guarantee that Vogey or Zito are back next year either.

      But screw that…no one is running away with the division this year. Some minor tweaks, get healthy, and have the breaks start going their way, and the boys can win the division.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 28, 2013 at 9:30 am

      Of course there are holes. 30 teams have holes. You’re preaching to the choir about winning the division, they can win it without doing a damn thing. I was just addressing what Sabean might do in the extremely unlikely event that they fell out of contention by the end of July. He wouldn’t “sell”, he just might not buy because in the off season he can address their needs without giving up anything except money.

      • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:35 am

        Agreed. I think your scenario (of Sabes standing pat) as opposed to “selling” are more likely if the do fall out of contention.

  43. salty said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:00 am

    Maybe we need to remind ourselves the “nimrod” remade the team in 2010 and 12 with some shrewd trades, FA signings and bargain pickups. May not be as easy without a quality rotation intact , but fact is they had a shaky Zito and troubled Sanchez in 2010 and an awful Tim and Zito last yr.

    That being said, Dodgers look like they may have turned the corner with Puig being the difference. If any team is capable of running away with the div, its them. They get a Nolasco or Garza, get Kemp going and stay healthy…
    Next few weeks should be telling.

    • twinfan1 said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:16 am

      Salty, JSanchez was nails down the stretch ( 4-1 1.01 ERA in Sept/Oct of the regular season) and won the 162nd game of the season after Zito and Cain were bombed trying to seal the deal. As far as reaching the postseason, he was crucial, troubled or not.

      • salty said, on June 28, 2013 at 11:11 am

        Twin, I wasn’t dissing him or dismissing his contributions. Point I was trying (poorly maybe) to make was there were issues with the starters in those two years as well …comparing to this year.
        And going forward, they aren’t replacing HOF material when you look at what Tim Zito Bogs have done recently, so I agree with you about selling.

    • blade3colorado said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:17 am

      Thanks Salty . . . I was going to post this morning before going to the gym, but didn’t because I thought the comment would get lost here (in lieu of Flavor posting a new thread).

      Anywho, I totally disagree with James asinine remark, “I’ve never had much respect for Sabean – he’s probably still an old school nimrod at heart . . .” I’m curious James – How many fucking championships did you expect him to win? Obviously, more than the 2 he had a big hand in bringing to the SF bay area, huh?

    • paulinasia said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:24 am

      Agree, they have certainly turned *a* corner. We’ll see if it’s *the* corner… Every team gets on a good run now and then, and maybe this is just their turn. Time will tell; they could still be derailed by injuries, since most of their *stars* seem prone to that, and by dysfunction, since they are, after all, the Dodgers. I think many Flappers would say they *will* be derailed by something. The way things are going in the division right now, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Dogs surge near 1st place by the break. Fortunately, the Gints can do something about that; very key series at China Basin after this road trip is finished. Um.. actually, all of these series are suddenly very key…

      • paulinasia said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:25 am

        Sorry, “they” was referring to the Dodgers…

  44. paulinasia said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:32 am

    That was an interesting discussion yesterday (Michael and James) about the Giant’s year-to-date stats, especially comparing last year and this year. So, at this point of the season last year, they had scored a bit more runs than runs allowed, and were 10 games over .500; this year, a bit more allowed than scored, and they are sub-.500. I’m no stats expert, as history here has demonstrated, but maybe I’m missing something about this year….

    Yeah, Cain and Vogie allowed a lot of runs earlier in the season, which would largely explain the negative run differential year-to-date, but I don’t see how that’s to blame for the current sub-.500 record. From what I remember, the team managed to find ways to win to stay above .500… sometimes even well over .500… during the time those two pitchers were not performing. Meanwhile, June seems to have been the starters’ best month, and it’s also the month the team has generally tanked to sub-.500. So while the starting pitching earlier in the season was inconsistent and sometimes even terrible, I don’t see it as the reason why the team is now sub-.500.

    Seems to be more about the injuries the past month or so and not having “the team” playing consistently well together. Somehow this team has got to figure out ways to win games, now or very very soon, like they did last year when the run differential was positive but not dramatically so. In the end – and that’s what statistics are, numerical representations of what has already happened on the field – winning more than losing, and winning more than the other teams, is the only stat that really matters.

    • chipower9 said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:40 am

      One other point can be brought into the mix re: where they are this year as opposed to this time last year. The D just fell flat on its face. They either lead MLB in errors for June, or were near the top. For a team that won two of three with pitching and solid defense, that is huge.

      I thought this thread interesting. It talks about what the Bums could potentially pay (salary/prospects) in a deal for Nolasco.

      http://tinyurl.com/nl5g2b2

    • twinfan1 said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:55 am

      It would have been an even better discussion had I not screwed up the numbers for last year ;- (
      i disagree with James about Sabean, but Brian *is* old school- now in the best way, once upon a time, that *was* a negative. One thing I don’t like is his public denigrating of some of his players. He still has not fared very well with his high end contracts, his misses out weigh the hits, IMO….but even when many were still in “FireSabean!!!!” mode he was quietly building the team we can now be so proud of. He still has plenty of the good “old school” but he’s also grown to embrace much of the new.

      • salty said, on June 28, 2013 at 11:27 am

        That’s a good fair assessment, especially with overpaying. He seems better going bargain hunting.

  45. blade3colorado said, on June 28, 2013 at 10:52 am

    Well, I will throw my trade rumor out there too. Alex Rios to the Giants (to replace Pagan’s bat in the line up). You read it here . . . http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/6/28/4474528/trade-rumors-alex-rios-white-sox

    • Nipper said, on June 28, 2013 at 11:01 am

      BLEEP IV

    • twinfan1 said, on June 28, 2013 at 11:20 am

      What Rios did after the White Sox picked him up in 2009 and his 2011 make me wary of which Rios we’d get. And in any case I don’t see Sabean taking on anotther big contract for the next two years, especially for a guy with the inconsistency that Rios has shown.


Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: