A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Going From Contending to Evaluating

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on August 1, 2013

Make no mistake about it, this season is over. Ha, sorry I have to break the bad news. The pitching has been suspect all year and the hitting has been atrocious for going into 3 months now. That’s not a “bad rut” as Bochy put it the other day. That’s your season.

I’m still watching all the games, rooting as hard as ever. I don’t think I’m taking the losses as hard because I’ve come to accept our fate this season. It took me a while, but I’ve accepted it. The other thing I’m going to do from here on out is evaluate the players we have. It’s a little difficult to do when the pressure of winning is off—when you’re not actually IN a divisional race, it’s an unknown how you would play if you were contending. But, a lot of these guys are still playing for jobs and contracts (some are even playing for pride) so there’s sufficient enough pressure put on these players on a daily basis to feel confident that their production can be judged one way or the other.

For all those reasons, I am 100% behind watching as many Brett Pill and Roger Kieschnick at bats as I can stomach. Not sure how many that’s gonna be. But this team needs more offense and better pitching. We’ve seen what the pitching looks like from AAA–it ain’t ready. And that’s a kind way to put it.

What we haven’t seen is how the hitting from AAA will do up here. And I’m not talking about the spot starts that Pill got over the last couple of years or the cup of coffee pine-riding that Peguero was given. I’m talking about sending them out there to play 4 out of 5 days for the rest of the year and see what happens. Unfortunately for Belt, he’s going to lose a lot of playing time since 1B is the only position I’d let Pill play.

Brandon Belt has had his shot, both this year and last year. He might turn out to be a productive player down the road and it could be for someone else. We’ll see. But he is not helping the team win this year. People point to his OPS but the fact is, his OPS isn’t that good. Compared to other first basemen in the league, he’s near the bottom.  And his strikeout rate is awful. If you’re going to strike out 23.8% of the time you better be bringing the thunder with your non-strike out at bats. For instance, Chris Davis strikes out 29% of the time. But he’s also blasted 38 bombs. Belt’s strikeout rate leads the team by a mile and it’s time for him to sit. Nice job with all your walks, but again, if you’re walking and striking out all the time you had better fill up the stat line somewhere else with the other 2/3 of your at bats. And Belt has failed to do that this year.

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  1. blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:26 am

    Unless you are delusional, believe in fairy tales, think Santa Claus comes down a chimney (much less lives at the N. Pole), the Giants have .01 percent of making the playoffs this year. Regardless, I still root and hope for the miracle that isn’t likely to come.

    I could care less than two shits if Belt, Pill, or Posey play at first base. See 1st paragraph for explanation of why. That being said, I think it is incumbent upon Sabean to wheel and deal during the off-season for another 1st baseman that meets the basic definition. The dude doesn’t have to be Willie Mac, but he can’t be Willie Wonka either. I will be happy with someone with some pop and a decent glove.

    Only one person’s opinion, but I like Jayson Stark’s evaluation of trade deadline “winners and losers” this morning. Giants aren’t on his list of winners . . . but also not on his list of losers (yes, he had a couple of teams on both for their inactivity during this trade deadline).

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9526787/mlb-trade-deadline-winners-losers

  2. chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:07 am

    Good thread, Flavor.

    I somewhat agree re: making the playoffs. I give it a very low probability that our boys can make a run, but stranger things have happened. Regardless, I am more in the mold of BF, and looking forward to watching the remainder of the games to evaluate what we have.

    This line from the link provided by Blade encapsulates beautifully where the Giants were at the trade deadline:

    “And too many buyers looking around the mall, trying to figure out why that ordinary pair of Levis they hoped to pick up were suddenly priced like they were stitched by Gucci.”

    In other words, the guys the Giants were “shopping” (Pence, Lincecum, and Lopez) were priced thusly.

    And I am good with the inactivity. I think those three guys have potential to be important pieces next year. Face it, as Flavor said, our AAA pitchers are NOT ready. Kickham? Surkamp? No fucking way. And with only two starters locked-up, they are going to need a couple of arms, and Timmy could be one of them.

    We know they need a LFer. The multi-headed monster experiment went off much worse than a botched Frankenstein creation. So no way in hell the Giants want to be shopping for TWO OFers. Hunter Pence…come on down.

    And while many may have a problem with high-priced specialists like Lopez, I think you almost MUST have one on your staff, and he is among the best.

    So, I’ll sit back with a cold one (or two or three) and watch them play ’em out. But I won’t be surprised if the Giants suddenly wake-up and play some good ball the rest of the way. Time will tell.

  3. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:59 am

    Allow me — ever the doomerest of doomers — my psychotic fantasy, my delusional drama, my sociopathic dream: the season ain’t over, we can do it.

  4. dirtnrocksnomo said, on August 1, 2013 at 9:16 am

    I’ve sort of accepted the season being lost too. Man, I sure picked a crappy year to take the plunge on season tickets. I take solace in the fact that I may be able to get better seats next year as a result of the club’s poor performance.

  5. Bozo said, on August 1, 2013 at 9:26 am

    Since I not only think Santa is real, but he is also God, I guess I’m delusional as fuck.
    Yes, yes, yes, the odds are against us making the Playoffs. But, until we’re eliminated, in my mind we’ve got a shot. Playing the kids doesn’t change that. Hell, when the Tour De Francoeur is over give his 40 man spot to the Fresno Catcher, Johnny Monell and play him a bit, try Posey at third, whatever. Just keep winning. Last night’s win felt good, so to use Hunter’s saying from his Philly days, “Good game, let’s go eat”.

  6. chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 9:42 am

    Not getting into the dance until the LAST game of the season in 2010, and then navigating the minefield of elimination games last year…ANYTHING is possible.

    As I said…I have not totally given-up. The odds are long, but if anyone can do it, the Giants are the ones.

    Loved seeing Kieschnick have a good debut. Base hit/RBI in his first AB. Nice.

  7. salty said, on August 1, 2013 at 9:53 am

    Sabean should get bold and creative in the off-season. To just sign the same cast and chalk this year up as an aberration is too passive an approach, IMHO.
    If they are set on bringing Pence back, maybe they are going to make a deal involving Belt or Pablo. I don’t see who else they have as trade bait. Romo?
    All speculative of course. I have no clue what they are thinking. Selling low is never a good strategy, so could depend on how those two finish the season.

    But Belt shouldn’t be singled out; everyone but Gaudin Posey and Bum (others?) have disappointed to some degree.
    One thing about Belt that is troubling, that Willie mentioned, is his body language. When he strikes out, he looks as if his dog died. I’m sure it has not gone unnoticed by the front office and mgr. OK to get angry but your body language should be saying I’ll get you next time sucker.

    • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:44 am

      Well, next year is a contract year for Pablo. He “should be motivated” to come in, in shape, and gunning for a big year. This is one of the few shots at a big-time contract that he will have. That said, I don’t think I would look at moving him.

      I am still in belief that this team, even with its struggles this year, is not in that bad of shape. They need some arms, and an OFer, but I don’t see them needing a major overhaul.

    • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:44 am

      Also, outside of wanting to see a little more pop from him, I am pretty happy with the way Crawford has played.

  8. sarge said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:02 am

    I have a slim hope that our boys will make a run and at least make the last month and a half interesting. I saw Kieshnick and Posey play together in Hawaii winter ball right after Posey got drafted. I’d heard that Posey was supposed to be the next coming of the Babe, but Kieshnick really impressed me. I’m far from an expert talent evaluator but he looked good then and I wasn’t shocked to see him get a couple of knocks yesterday. On a side note about the games I saw in Hawaii, there was a kid in the Reds system that played out there and I wish I had payed more attention to because he lit up everybody. I don’t remember his name though. (insert gay ass frowney face)

  9. salty said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:03 am

    Tour due Francouer is good.

    Why not give Belt some starts in Lf now?

  10. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:15 am

    Belt gets crushed for not being productive. The entire team needs to be crushed for that. Pence has sucked, he’s a vet in a power position with an attack approach AB that’s got 4 more HRs than Belt playing EVERY DAY and a wallet making 26X more money. Panda is in a power position with one LESS HR than Belt in MORE ABs (340 Panda, 318 Belt), dragging a 265 pound out of shape ass around the bases, and a wallet 12X fatter than Belt’s. These veterans need to be crushed way more than Belt. Pablo’s body language — out of shape. What’s that say about his approach to being a professional? It was sick last night how Kruk and Kuip were overjoyed at one good game from Pill, yet similar games from Belt this year were treated with a “we need more of those” attitude. Belt is crushed and going to be traded from this team because management thinks he’s a big pussy. Pure and simple, IMO…

    • Irish Kevin said, on August 1, 2013 at 2:14 pm

      Well IMO Belt does not like coming out for a Rest just to keep Posey in the Lineup. with that said if Management was happy with Belt, why didn’t they put him in Left field when Posey played 1st. Just my thoughts

  11. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:23 am

    You guys are optimistic, I’ll give you that. Giants have to win at about a 71% clip to get to 87 wins. If they did that to win the division, it would eclipse the 2010 stretch story, hands down…

  12. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:26 am

    The ‘body language’ talk is all so much bullshit. Belt wears it when he flails. That’s how he is. Is it better to clown around after flailing at the plate? Smash a BP phone with your bat? I don’t get the singling out of Belt at the expense of all the other problems this team has, but the team, the management, and the FO seem to have no problems with this. Chickenshit in my book.

    • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:49 am

      Not sure if any of you have read the story on Posey in the previous SI. But one point that stood out for me (and he says had one of the biggest impacts on how he plays) is after a bad game he was showing some emotion, and his dad told him that your opponents should not be able to tell from your emotions whether you are having your best day or worst day (something to that effect). Hard to do, but I get the logic.

      • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:15 pm

        So, when Pagan crossed the plate with that IPHR and BF put up on here that iconic celebration photo, Mr. Posey says don’t show that emotion? With respect to Mr. Posey, Bulldust. To me, one of the great things about sports is the emotion. Real emotion, not ritualistic displays. On the field, in the stands. I remember Reggie Jackson striking out as a Yankee in a World Series, I think against the Dodgers. In the bottom of the 9th to end a Yankee loss, or something like that. He showed big time emotion. He was PISSED OFF for striking out. Like he wanted to break the bat over somebody’s noggin — his own. I love that kind of moment. True emotion, not taunting anybody, not showing off, not planned stuff like the Beard’s signals or Romo’s stuff after the save. So, Belt can show some disappointment, IMO. I doubt seriously the next guy throwing a pitch to him is going to have an advantage because of a shoulder shrug yesterday…

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:57 pm

        When I read that, I thought two words: Steve Carlton.

      • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:51 pm

        Just sharing what I read. Not saying that is what works for everyone, but that is what works for him…is the way he chooses to deal with it.

    • twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:16 am

      Good post, Chuck, If any the BL people paid attention, they’d see he looks about as excited in his HR trot as the camel in the hump day commercial. He’s a gangly, awkward guy with naturally slumped shoulders. And he’s emotional- some morons have have even knocked him for crying when he was informed he’d made the team.

  13. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:31 am

    71%, or whatever, they just need to get on a roll opposite the downward spiral they just went through. The pitching is pretty much doing its job lately. If they can get to .500 in a couple weeks, then the stage is set to put pressure on the upper teams in September. Come the end of August, most all the games are divisional games. There’s chance to make up a lot of ground.

    I hate to think this way (for future disappointment’s sake), because I’ve been down on these guys for a while, but the chance IS there.

    We score, we win.

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:41 am

      If they came back to win this division, it would be a near ’51 redux. That Giants team did it with a crazy high winning percentage the last 2 months (50-12), the Dodgers were ahead and played OK, they didn’t crater. Yeah, it’s possible. A little better odds than getting hit by a meteorite, but possible…

  14. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:08 am

    I’d be down with Belt taking starts in LF if for no other reason than it would keep Frenchie and/or Torres out of there. But that would zap the main thing Belt brings to the game–defense. So I’m not sure that’s worth it, especially if he keeps hitting so lightly.

    • twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:18 am

      Torres is playing CF, not LF.

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:22 am

      actually that would rob Keisch of LF starts so I’m against that.

  15. salty said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:08 am

    If they ran off 10 straight I might get to thinking 1951.
    I felt if they went 9-1, 8-2 on the home stand there was still a glimmer of hope. If losing 3 of 4 to the Reds was a punch to the gut, the sweep by the Cubs was a knock out punch. But I still faithfully watched both Philly games, even Zito’s mess and will continue.

  16. twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:18 am

    Belt- he’ll be back in the starting LU soon
    Pill- ななくせほちちいい
    Zito- our long local nightmare is almost over. Thanks for your 5 meaningful wins here.
    The Platoon- performed as well as anyone could have expected
    Pagan- didn’t
    Timmy- as Shea pointed out last night , almost sure to be back- he should accept a qualifying offer of 14 or 15 and try to rebuild his “brand” for the FA market after 2014.
    Sabean- as said, the best trades may be those not consummated.
    Posey- too young to be being treated like an old man. He should catch 140 games a year.

    • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:28 am

      Pagan – while his numbers (for the short time he played before getting hurt) were all below lifetime averages, I still believe he brought intangibles to the team that cannot be measured in statistics. I really think he was a sparkplug that energized the team regardless of his numbers.

      • twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:46 am

        That’s the story. But sorry, he was the worst of the 3 getting on base in the lead off spot and the worst CFer defensively ( when Perez was here Baggs said Pagan was our 4th best defensively) . People miss last year’s Pagan. It’s funny really- Torrres gets shit for playing like Pagan did *this* year- and for 8 million less. Angel looks cooler, though. Great body language.

      • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:56 am

        Check the team record on the day Pagan went down and since then

      • twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:08 pm

        Yeah, Zito,Cain, Affeldt, Lincecum all sucked cuz they missed Crazy Horse. Pence slumped, Panda slumped, Crawford and Scooter and Panda got hurt because PaGONE! was out… you nailed it, dude.

      • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:10 pm

        Michael, I specifically said “intangibles.” Not OBP, not defensive WAR stats…nothing to do with stats. I think he brought a spark to the club that cannot be measured in statistics. That’s my opinion, and as Flavor said, check the record before and after he went down. You and I have had this discussion before. We can agree to disagree on whether or not he was a key component of the team, stats be damned.

      • twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:33 pm

        Chi, stats do matter whether you want to acknowledge it or not. And BF’s thinking on their record since Pagan went down is too ridiculously flawed to even discuss. As I said when you got all het up before, Pagan was a 10 million dollar man playing like the 2 million dollar man. And I’ll remind you that Mr. Torres is respected in the clubhouse as much as any guy on the team, the trashing of him here is outrageous. As is the outlandish notion that we’re “rock bottom” because we miss a miss .260 no pop 4thh best defensive CFer who reverted to the guy who was happily bid farewell in NY. No, Torres and Blanco are not answers going forward, but they did not downgrade what Pagan provided this year. I grew to really like Angel last year, but as *CRAIG* feared, it appears he was not a guy to be giving out a long term deal to.

      • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:54 pm

        I am not saying that stats don’t matter…I just think that Pagan had an impact on the team OUTSIDE of JUST his stats. And I am not attributing all the failings to him being out of the line-up, but I do think that his NOT being in the line-up had a definite impact on the team.

  17. twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:29 am

    I overdid it yesterday and paid for it. My left hand actually seized up later last night. Beating back the forces of doom and gloom is hard work. Enjoy your day, guys. Love you all, truly.

  18. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:31 am

    Snarkk– I agree that Belt is far from the only problem. Sandoval has alternated between hurt and bad most of the year. But we really don’t have a 3rd baseman to plug in there and frankly, Panda has proven that he’s an outstanding, productive hitter. I think they’ll wait on that. Belt? The waiting is over. He’ll get back in there if Pill goes tits up but that’s about the only way he sees the starting LU, consistently, for the rest of this season. Hey, Pill could EASILY go tits up

  19. Macdog said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:32 am

    About to head out to the game and . . . it’s raining. Good matchup, Cain vs. Hamels, even if neither one has exactly been All-Star caliber. Saw the same two last year and they homered off each other. This time I’m prepared with tix in the LF seats, at my daughter’s prodding, which means it’ll probably be 1-0. As long as it’s the Giants with the 1.

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:33 am

      have a good one, Mac. Remember those pics!

    • salty said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:51 am

      You and Pawlie and other east coasters …I bow to your faith, devotion, loyalty, dedication.

  20. xoot said, on August 1, 2013 at 11:59 am

    On Aug. 2, 1982, the Giants were 50-55 and 13 games out of first place. They finished 87-75 and were in contention for the division until the final weekend. (Joe Morgan HR weekend.) Their record’s worse right now, but they’re only 10 games out. On the other hand, they had a 9-game win streak in Aug. 82. So . . . .

    • Nipper said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:06 pm

      Keep hoping, there’s nothing wrong with that.

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:09 pm

      The biggest diff is that the ’82 team was hungry. The ’13 team just won it all. There’s a sense of complacency with this team. I’m not singling them out, it probably happens to a lot of teams post championship year. I don’t think they have the innate drive–human nature thing

      • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:20 pm

        That is why teams like the late 90s Yanks, the Big Red Machine, the early ’70s A’s, the ’70s Steelers, ’80s Niners, ’90s Cowboys — those teams are revered. They had it all, they won it all, and had the drive to KEEP wanting it. I think of the Roger Craig fumble against the NY Giants — if he doesn’t fumble, it was a lock that the Niners had a threepeat. Three Lombardi’s in a row — it was in the bag, because there was NO WAY that team was going to lose a Super Bowl once they were in it. Repeating is hard. Being competitive after a championship shouldn’t be hard. That’s where the Giants have to pull out of this funk, and end with some respectability. It’s important heading into next season, IMO…

  21. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    Hey Nippy.
    On your 5:28 this morning, why so ornery lately? Cialis in your pablum?…

  22. blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    Flav, how many fantasy league players do you have on your teams that will likely get suspended? Will it impact your teams in a negative way (major, minor, or not at all).

    So far, I have Jhonny Peralta (Flap) and Nelson Cruz (another league). In both leagues I am in 1st, but only my position in the Flap is really threatened by the suspension. In the other league, I am up by 25 points. I am also in one other league, but no players are affected by this PED situation.

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:02 pm

      Zero. The dude who I’m battling with in one NFBC lg (he and I are 20 Pts ahead of 3rd place) has Evereth Cabrera though. I’m beating him in sb’s 11>10 (12 team lg) so I am stoked once he gets his 50

      • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:16 pm

        The closest I came in any lg was in rd 1. I had 2nd pick. Trout went first. I had a draft mock board where I took Braun but I passed on that and went with Miggy– pretty stoked about that. Dude who took Braun next was already in last pl b4 his suspension

      • blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:34 pm

        Yeah, Peralta will hurt me. He has been a good (FL) player, with good counting stats. Cruz has been clutch as well, but I am so far ahead in the other league, that I doubt it will affect me one iota.

        Speaking of Trout, I was surprised you traded him in the Flap. Hope it works out for both of you (Reilly).

  23. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    For whatever reason, the high water mark was the inside the parker by Pagan. They were tied for 1st. Since then have gone 18-36. Anomaly or no, the tanking coincided with Pagan’s injury

    • salty said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:16 pm

      They missed Casilla then, too. And Vogelsong’s body language was sorely missed. 😉

      • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 3:35 pm

        I love that tough ass Vogelsong body language. Obviously helped him as he cratered second half last year, and built that 6+ ERA or whatever it was before he broke his finger this season…

    • blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:39 pm

      Yeah, I’m of the opinion that Pagan’s absence has hurt the team. Sure, his stats weren’t as good as last year, but the season was still young. Dollars to donuts, he would have continued to ascend if he had not been injured. The single biggest memory of this season will be Tim’s no hitter and Angel’s inside the park home run. Equally important, Pagan’s intangibles are so much more greater than Torres, Blanco, Frenchy, etc. He was capable of doing unbelievable things and was usually a catalyst for big innings. No one can convince me otherwise.

      • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 3:40 pm

        I agree and said so before. IMO Pagan’s injury was the biggest catalyst for the dumper dive. Doesn’t explain it all, but was a key point. Funny, because before he showed up, the rumor was he was a clubhouse problem. On the contrary, his loss dropped the energy in the clubhouse and on the field about 1000 amps. The Blanco/Torres combo pales in comparison…

  24. xoot said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    On the main post above, you’re persuading me. I get flashbacks this season of moments that just flat out pissed me off, and Belt taking strike three with a full count is one of the worst of them all. Going 0 for 8 with 5 SOs in one game? Intellectually, I recall that; but I don’t see it. The called third strike while he was trying to milk a BB — that I see, all too clearly. No particular game (I think maybe he ended one game that way), but the image is searingly clear.

  25. twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    “People point to his OPS but the fact is, his OPS isn’t that good. Compared to other first basemen in the league, he’s near the bottom. ” Of 19 NL first basemen with 200 or more PA appearances he is 9th in OPS, 9th in wOBA, and 7th in wRC+. Not great, but hardly poor. Counting his usually excellent defense, it moves him to the upper tier of NL first basemen.

    Tonight’s LU:

    1. Andres Torres (S) CF

    2. Marco Scutaro (R) 2B

    3. Pablo Sandoval (S) 3B

    4. Buster Posey (R) C

    5. Hunter Pence (R) RF

    6. Brett Pill (R) 1B

    7. Jeff Francoeur (R) LF

    8. Joaquin Arias (R) SS

    9. Matt Cain (R) P

    • xoot said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:42 pm

      Personally, I cherish and admire his defense. I’m conflicted about the guy.

  26. salty said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    I’m not qualified to say what to draw from body language, if anything. But in a game where hitters generally fail 70% of the time, would seem how you handle that can directly impact your level of success. That’s all I’m thinking about re Belt.

  27. blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    Mike, I don’t doubt those stats. However, his “production” sucks for a first baseman. In our ESPN fantasy league, his ownership level is 11.5%, which is pathetic and speaks to the thousands of FL players that disdain him and his poor production. However, in Yahoo, his ownership level is 28%, which is much better and I can’t tell you the reason for the difference. Nevertheless, this is still a low ownership level. Belt’s 1st base ranking, based upon FL counting stats (BA, hits, HR, Runs, RBI, SB) is 33. This encompasses all MLB players that play 1st base (not just starters). Again, this is quite poor.

    • twinfan1 said, on August 1, 2013 at 2:24 pm

      wRC+ in fact, does measure production, despite erroneous claims to the contrary.It’s a stat that dissects a player’s overall offense, while adjusting for the effects of the parks and league he plays in. And Belt is 7th, as I said, among the 19 NL first basemen who have had 200 or more PA. I doubt that FLs take that into account and defense is not a FL priority, either. I reiterate that his production and defense, IMO, make him an upper tier player at his position in the NL. And Pill is an upper tier first baseman as well- in the PCL. If he helps us win a couple games while Belt is at the woodshed, that’s a good thing.

  28. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    twin, nice to see you doing well enough to post but I’d appreciate it if you would stop distorting the FACTS that I have put into this thread. It’s possible it wasn’t clear when I said “league” but I was referring to both leagues when I noted his shitty OPS (that you and James jack off to). He’s 20th out of the 26 listed. He’s in “Lyle Overbay Land”. Maybe you don’t consider 20th of 26 to be near the bottom. I do……..
    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=10,d

  29. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    and forget wrc+ because you don’t need it adjusted if you’re just looking at everyone else on the team. He’s at 44 (which sucks). It’s one ahead of Pablo and Crawford who are at 43 (also a shitty piss poor wrc).

    • blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 3:06 pm

      “It’s one ahead of Pablo and Crawford who are at 43 (also a shitty piss poor wrc).”

      Agree with this for these reasons as well . . . Comparing any of our players to other players on our team is ridiculous for obvious reasons: 1. Your point alluding to the team as a whole playing poorly (exception Posey and lately, he hasn’t performed either – in his last 15 games, he is batting .167, with 1 HR, 3 RBIs); 2. A small sample size insofar as comparing them to other players on the Giants; and, 3. Comparing Belt and Pill is like comparing a Yugo to a Pacer . . .They both suck, so what’s the point?

      Bochy is playing Pill because he has no other alternatives. If Pill catches lightening in a bottle, great. He may have a chance to stick around for the competition in Spring training and beyond. If not, then Sabes knows that he has to deal for a 1st baseman in the off season. The remaining games are all about who wants to stick around next year. Pill hit .148 in 14 games with the Giants earlier this year. He knows that if he does that again, it’s adios MLB and buenos dias flipping burgers at McDonalds.

  30. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Macdog,
    Bring us a win, yo Adrienne.

  31. Alleykat said, on August 1, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    Hey did anyone figure out if the Giants had the worse record of any defending W/S team to visit the White House?Just curious.

  32. Irish Kevin said, on August 1, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    so where has this Kieschnick kid been, why was he not up here in the spring getting looked at? IMHO management has thrown in the towel on the season. I would not think that you bring up AAA guys to “Get” you to the playoffs. then what you sit them for the vets in the playoffs?? I don’t think so. I also think Belt played the good camper when he had to sit so Posey could be in the lineup. WTF, with the debacle in Left Field Belt could have played there for the games Posey was at first. Someone said they should play Pill and Kieschnick everyday, I agree. how else are you going to evaluate them. Are they one game wonders?? Anyway Go Giants

  33. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    It’s easy to see the Giants are blowing smoke when they say they don’t want to bring guys up from the minors until they’re “ready”. That’s true only under certain circumstances. When there’s a black hole at a position, they’ll bring guys up that obviously aren’t ready. (See Crawford, Belt). Crawford gets his pole smoked by management because he stopped the defensive tire fire that was at SS (hello Miggy, et al), regardless that his hitting has been generally poor, as expected, and was a defensive basket case for the first 2 months or so. Belt has been trashed because he’s at a position expected to “produce”, regardless he was brought up a year too early, and never had even one full season at any level in the minors. For LF this year, they’ve brought in everybody to try to fix that mess, regardless that they aren’t ready (Peguero) or will never be ready again (Francouer, and Tanaka, in a position they’ve really never played). Kieschnick’s been injured a lot below. So, they let him get more reps in Fresno this season, but now with the season down the dumper, it makes sense to try him now before the September callups, to get a good long look, and reduce the looming OF crisis of next season if Pagan doesn’t come back to form and Pence bolts. If Kieschnick turned into a LH version of Ken Henderson (vintage early ’70s), which from one game he reminds me of, that would be just fine. Anybody remember Kenny Henderson? Good, all around OFer…

    • blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 3:56 pm

      Regarding Pagan, there is a good chance he will come back at the end of this season. Regardless, there is no question he will be ready for Spring Training.

    • Alleykat said, on August 1, 2013 at 4:35 pm

      Remember Kenny well Snarkk..
      Henderson had a great year in seventy,batting .294 with 17 bombs and knocked in 88.Always felt he was a solid steady player and good defense with the leather as you mentioned.

      • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:22 pm

        Nice, Kat. Yep, if we had THREE Ken Hendersons out there, we’d be friggin Golden…

  34. zumiee said, on August 1, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    “some morons have have even knocked him for crying when he was informed he’d made the team.”

    That didn’t happen at the Flap as far as I remember; you must be talking about somewhere else. There were a few people at the Flap, including me, who wondered if BOCHY was put off by the tears.

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:23 pm

      Of course he was put off. It was obvious. “Have a beer”. From that moment on, if not sooner, I believe Bochy sized up Belt as a big pussy, and has been treating him that way since. Belt is an articulate, quiet kid, he may think too much at times, and likely internalizes stuff too much. But, some young players can be like that. Good managers are able to handle all types of personalities…

  35. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    I understood the flier on Frenchie but I figured if it wasn’t working they’d ditch him quickly. Makes zero sense why he’s still here, much less playing tonight

  36. paulinasia said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    Sadly kind of agree with Craig’s comment about this team just not being hungry for it this year, once they got down to the bottom.. just requires too much effort and luck to get back to the top again. In my pre-season picks (which are still meaningless with many games left to play), I picked the Giants to finish 2nd to the Dodgers and get a wildcard berth. IMO, there’s no catching the Dodgers, who ARE hungry to win and obviously have the talent to do so, and the Giants are even further out of the wildcard than they are behind LA. I would not be too depressed about not making it this year if they actually play fairly well the rest of the way and do come out hungrier next year, and I do think we’ll see some good baseball the rest of the way.

    As for the stats discussions here, and what caused the free-fall, stats do not (IMO) explain the free-fall, especially the talk about the pitchers being the reason the team is out of it, since the team was still winning when the pitching was sucking through mid-May, and the team has been losing since the team stopped hitting around the time Pagan went down. If I had to pick one critical point, that would indeed be it, as some others here say while others disagree. Pagan went down, so did the team. Intangibles ARE meaningful. Two years ago, go figure the team starting to completely suck when Beltran joined the team. These guys are humans, not machines… they’re more *analog* than digital. Stats are digital and only represent something that has already happened on the field. Well, everyone is searching for a reason for this season. The Vietnamese have a saying… “po tay”… means, hands are tied, nothing we can do. So we look for reasons, and individually we find one that suits our point of view. And we just continue to watch and hope to see some life in these guys. I’m guessing the players themselves realize it’s all on them, and hopefully they’ll show some pride and spunk these last couple of months. In the end, we all just still want to be proud to be Giants fans and have some reason to continue our knowing nodding.

    Sorry about the long post.

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:18 pm

      Don’t apologize, it was a fantastic post

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:31 pm

      Say, Paul. I wonder if any expat teachers, while in say, Southeast Asia, would partake in any kind of “po-tay” activities with any of their students, or with certain ladies in some very nice, sultry, classy, ethereal, but totally hypothetical photos they might have taken? Just a theoretical question… 😉

    • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:42 pm

      That was an awesome post. Absolutely no need to apologize.

  37. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:34 pm

    Aaaaaaaand right back to Suck-town. Single, double, 0 runs.

    See if Pill can cure the ills.

  38. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:34 pm

    Well, he fouled that one hard.

  39. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:35 pm

    Nice. Watch 2 go by.

  40. Alleykat said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:38 pm

    Not even sure if Belt got in at the White House .Bochy probably told the secret service he is not part of the team,and anal cavity search him, while we hang with the President.

    • blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:04 pm

      lol

  41. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    Hundley rocks Kashmir . . .

    “Since Panda lost the weight”? WTF is Kruk drinking?

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:44 pm

      I was wondering about that comment too. Huh?

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:49 pm

      I’m listening to radio. Miller just said the same thing on Panda’s defensive move. Memo must have come down from Baer…

  42. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    See if Cain can return the favor .. .

  43. paulinasia said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    Snarkk: oh, behave…. but yes, maybe…

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:07 pm

      Exactly the answer I was looking for…
      😉

  44. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    BF, on your 5 pm re: Frenchie. Agreed, makes no sense why this guy is here.
    Kieschnik should hit against Hamels, or anybody. I can’t find his success against LHPs in the minors, but who friggin cares? Let the kid play. Put fuggin Belt in LF, let him hit. Francouer is likely out of baseball on October 1. These other guys have a future to figure out. It’s utter nonsense…

    • paulinasia said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:56 pm

      Francouer should be out of baseball NOW… seriously.

      • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:58 pm

        There’s the answer. Frenchie can throw when the opposing 3rd base coach subscribes to the Flann school of waiving in runners…

  45. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    Mascots are dumb. If the Fanatic ambled his fat ass down my row I’d be like “Son, you need to move along…”

  46. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    How can the same golden arm Frenchie uses to throw also be the same arm used to hold and swing the bat?

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:01 pm

      Different muscle twitch required?..

      • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:55 pm

        maybe it’s all the left arm’s problem. 🙂

  47. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    Are the Giants going to let Cain throw yet another gem in his career to take a loss or ND because they can’t friggin score? Let’s just say no, and get a coupla runs here…

  48. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    Another out at home. Another wasted gem by Cain.

  49. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    Fuck me!
    That’s awesome. Way to go Pence, Pill, Keisch. Just DFA Francouer tomorrow and put Kieschnick in every game until/unless he shows he’s in over his head. WTF not?…

  50. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    Phillies got Schnicked!

  51. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    A ruh, ruh ruh . . . . rally???

  52. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    I threatened the squad with not dissing Cain again. They responded. Cool.
    Papelbon’s a dick anyway.
    Way to go with the sucky bunt, Blanco. That should be his expertise. Sheezus…

  53. unca_chuck said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    Let’s go Brandon. Get off the schneid.

  54. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:33 pm

    hey a walk. That’s new. Try driving in the fucking runs next time.

  55. zumiee said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    It couldn’t have happened to a better doofus than Papelbon.

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:54 pm

      yes. Especially after all his shit-talking last week about “I didn’t come here for this”. You came there for $$$, idiot. STFU and play.

  56. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    Can this team just fucking play good ball for an entire game? Is it THAT hard?…

  57. snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Wow.
    That was some crazy crap right there. Great recovery by Romo.
    2 wins in a row on the road? Knock me over with a feather…

  58. Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    I’m not sure if I can remember a 9th inning like that, ever…

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:13 pm

      I was at a meeting and then driving, but Macdog was texting me from the scene, and then I caught the last two outs with digital circles online. The coolest cool thing was that on-the-scene Macdog texted “Win!” at 9:52pm, seconds before ESPN posted it.

  59. Bozo said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    That’s what I’m talking about.

    Nice to see another team not score with bases loaded and no outs.

  60. zumiee said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:53 pm

    Never in doubt.
    🙂 🙂 🙂

  61. manny said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    Kratz krapped out. Let that Kiesnick kid play.

  62. denniszu said, on August 1, 2013 at 6:59 pm

    The Torch of Torture is back…..but feeling good about it!

  63. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:06 pm

    Macdog brings us luck! Big win. Proves we can win in Philly even if I am not getting texts at the ballet. BIG. WIN. Big Win. big win. win, variey of big.

  64. paulinasia said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:06 pm

    This team’s saving grace will be realizing that winning is more fun than losing… 🙂

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:09 pm

      You are the roshi sensei supreme tonight. Love your #zen epigrammatic pronouncements, and I am not being sarcastic or ironic.

  65. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    C’mon, Cubbies!

  66. SanDawg said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    2 in a row–on the road no less! I was hoping the visit to the White House would wake this team up, but I think it was the Snarkk/WSWins dustup here on The Flap that actually provided the spark! I should have known it would take an event centered around the worldwide Giant Universe to reverse our fortunes.
    …as for the Tour de Francour, I agree it is hard to figure what happened with him. He’s still only 29 years old! The guy drove in over 100 runs twice in his early twenties and I’m not aware of any major injuries he’s had. This should be the prime of his career. I’m still hoping that somehow, someway the Bochy managing style pulls a good performance out of him like I’ve seen him do for fringe guys like Eric Owens and Bubba Trammel down here in Diego—but the early returns aren’t encouraging.

    WSWins–I agree with the others who would like to see you back as a regular poster.

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:22 pm

      Whenever I see a guy have a couple great years and then completely flame out before he’s 30 I just assume it was steroid-fueled. And 9 times out of 10, I bet I’m right. Cycle up for the last couple years of team control, get paid, go off cycle.
      It has to happen all the time

      • sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:27 pm

        Me too, but it isn’t kind of odd when the guys best years came when he was 22/23? Call me naive, but I don’t think Frenchy is/was a juicer and I’m still down with giving him some at bats.
        Ok–let the tarring and feathering begin!!

      • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:55 pm

        well, he started out his career with 3 very good years. Scouts woulda found a hole in his swing if it was there. And then he started flailing, different teams, etc. And then 2 bounce back years with the Royals. Not earth shattering, but decent. And then back to worse than replacement player.
        I dunno, he seems to be trying hard. After that….

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:50 pm

      SDawg, if having a dustup on here would have helped the Giants with a spark, I would have flamed every Flapper’s ass about May 20th. I probably have since then, anyway. Mine’s been singed some pretty often, I know that… 😉

      • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:48 pm

        Bahaha…mine too! 😉

  67. sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    …and is it me, or have the Giants brought in a helluva lot more real good ballplayers at the tail end of their careers with little or nothing left in the gas tank than other teams have? Just off the top of my head, I came up with this list while warming a pork chop for Little San Dawg: Warren Spahn, Duke Snider, Steve Carlton, Goose Gossage, Tommy Herr, Joe Morgan, Reggie Smith, Dusty Baker, Gary Carter, Al Oliver, Manny Trillo. I’m sure there are tons of others I’m forgetting, but I think we’ve loved us some has-beens here in SF over the years– moreso than other clubs.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:29 pm

      impressive memory you have; add fuckin Rennie Stennett

      • sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:34 pm

        Nice addition! It helps having a couple of older brothers who I have heard vent about the Giants for 40+ years.

      • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:49 pm

        well, Stennett sucked when he got here. Diggity has come up with an impressive list of has-been’s that showed up here and “kept-being’s”. I can’t get on board with Manny Trillo, though. Maybe Chris Speier in his 2nd stint with us? Willie McGee? Although you could argue he actually did what you are talking about by going back to the Cards for the last couple years of his career.
        Benny Santiago? Shawon Dunston?
        How about The Big Cat?

      • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:54 pm

        Ryan Klesko, Miggy, Orlando Cabrera, it may be a near infinite list…

      • sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:57 pm

        Flavor/Snarkk—do you agree with me that we have brought in way more has-beens than other teams have?

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:51 pm

      or were you just listing off has been’s that kept not-being? Carlton, Gossage, Morgan, Smith, Baker, Carter, Oliver—I remember those guys still having something left in the tank when they got here. But maybe I’m mistaken.

      • sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:56 pm

        I listed guys who were either done or darn close to it in my opinion. Some of those guys–like Reggie Smith, put up some decent numbers.
        Don’t forget Darryl Strawberry either!

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:01 pm

        Sorry, but my fave pitcher of the era, Lefty, really was done when we got him. HR or SO. But done. I’ve noted this: there he was on TV in the game of the week in the dugout trying to learn the split-fingered (the Roger Craig era). Um, too late.

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:05 pm

        Dang. We simply cannot add Ryan Garko, because he was a never-was-been, or do I err? Thrown in Armando “Wife-beater Homer-launcher” Benitez.

    • Bozo said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:03 pm

      Don’t forget Dunston, Santiago and (this is where I get tarred and feathered) Willie Mac.

      Agreed dog, over the years it seems we’ve tried to catch lighting in a bottle only to sit and watch the dieing flame of a candle. Or some shit like that.

  68. blade3colorado said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:46 pm

    I lost my feed on the internet and went out to the local open space park with a friend to walk . . . Come back and the Giants won! Reading the comments here, it sounds like Papelbon blew the save, correct? AP article will be very interesting to read . . .

    • snarkk said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:51 pm

      Yep, PapelBlown…

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:03 pm

        Ever since his 9/28/11 meltdown for the Red Sox, I’ve seen him as a scared-looking wuss.

      • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:51 pm

        But they loaded the bases against Romo, no out, and couldn’t score. That was tortious and fucking amazing. Big Big Win…hell, they’re all HUGE now.

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:02 pm

      Speaking of AP, they blew it too. Their lead, which ESPN is using, says, “Alex Arias…” Nope. Wrongo. Fact-checker, please.

      • Alleykat said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:13 pm

        Saw that 2 Pawlie…What the hell is in the drinking water in Bristol Conn?
        Geez i guess it’s so long since the Giants have won a couple of games, its easy for ESPN to rip them a new one.

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:16 pm

        well, it shows how lazy they are too. Picked up the AP story blindly. I hope our crack sports editor Macdog is reading this, but prob. on the way home. I told him to text me or Magnus a game photo.

  69. sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    Eric Davis!

    • Bozo said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:06 pm

      Joe Carter

      • sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:10 pm

        Outstanding! I’m telling you, our all-time list of alumni players is off the fucking charts—and that’s not even mentioning the Mays/McCovey gang.
        The Big Cat was also a terrific pull.

  70. Alleykat said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    Dont forget to add Willie Montanez, Bill”MadDog” Madlock & WTF Enos “The Penis” Cabell…

    • Flavor said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:06 pm

      Mad-Dog. Excellent add

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:09 pm

        I was in the Giants clubhouse in Pitts., 1978, Blue, the Count, Stretch, etc. And over in the corner Madlock was whining to reporters about conditions at Candlestick. But being a spineless asshole, I got his autograph anyway. Not that I care now. He sucked. ADD KEN REITZ. This is some fuckin parlor game. Endless.

      • Fergusson said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:17 pm

        Madlock was like 26-7 and hit .300 twice for the G’s. He then played another 10 years and hit .340 for Pitt one year. May have been a jerk, but he wasn’t washed up. Two time AS after leaving the frigid confines of the stick.
        Now, Chris Speier was washed up when he returned. Aurilia. Phil Garner.

      • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:20 pm

        Well, that’s what was so irritating about Madlock. Subpar for us, par or better after SF.

      • sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:21 pm

        Garner is a nice one! I’ll see your Phil Garner and raise you a Ken Oberkfell

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:06 pm

      Mr. Miquel Tejada, move to the front of the line, please, or dang near it.

    • chipower9 said, on August 1, 2013 at 10:55 pm

      How about Ernest Riles? And to top it off, he got the 10,000th Giant’s hit.

  71. sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    One of my brothers tells a great story about how (supposedly) nobody on the team fucked with Barry back in the day. No hot-foots, kangaroo court, didn’t mess with his stuff—-shit like that. He claims he heard that once Dunston arrived that all changed and Shawon went out of his way to mess with Barry and show him he didn’t think he was anyone who should be treated specially. I think the story went that Dunston used to sit in Barry’s chair a lot and dared him to have a problem with that.

  72. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    Jose Guillen

  73. sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:19 pm

    I wouldn’t let Garko into this club for the reasons you mentioned.
    I also have reservations about Montanez and Madlock, who both were fairly young and productive when with us. However, I love their names coming up as Montanez is far and away my favorite short-term SF Giant of all-time. I remember keeping track of his RBI’s and being so stoked when he reached the 100 mark. What made it even cooler was the fact that he reached the number while playing for 2 different teams in the same season. I wonder how many times that has happened?

    • PawlieKokonuts said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:23 pm

      A showy first-baseman, too, as in “hot dog” — but very good. Magnus can back this up if true, but something tells me he made a decent play to save Halicki’s no-hitter. Hank Sauer.

  74. Alleykat said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    Todd i still have freakin nightmares over Wellenmeyer!!!
    Brett Tomko, John Cumberland,shit even goofy looking Frank Linzy and Ron “Gerbel” Herble.

  75. sandog said, on August 1, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    Very entertaining 60 minutes—thanks for playing Flappers!


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