A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

It’s Time. The Giants Need to Retire #22.

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on August 23, 2013

Eric Byrnes spent a lot of time on his KNBR show yesterday trying to drum up support for his #Retire22 campaign. As anyone knows, there is no greater Will Clark fan than me. Growing up, he was the ONLY poster I had in my bedroom and I had like 6 of them. He was the main reason I became a switch hitter, I taught myself how to hit left handed because I had a man-crush on that swing.

The Thrill has no business ever being elected into the hall of fame and he probably won’t ever get the chance anyway having fallen short of the 5% vote needed to be included on future voting lists. The HOF is all about numbers and reputation. People visiting the HOF would get to Will’s shrine, look at his numbers and just go, “WTF is he doing here?”

But to a Giants fan base, he was everything. At least anyone age 8-21 or so who grew up in the mid/late eighties–and that grown up fan base makes up a large percentage of the season ticket holders today. And his number, 22, will be forever attached to his greatness in a Giants uniform. He was the sole source of pride for Giants fans at the time he burst into the major leagues by blasting a Nolan Ryan fastball for a bomb in his first at bat and he led the way as the team emerged from the darkness of their long time losing culture. That’s why I get irritated when I see guys like Roger Kieschnick wear it. And he’s not nearly the worst looking player to ever try to wear that number. Ryan Rohlinger? Keiichi Yabu? Dustan Mohr? Damon Minor? There are others but it hurts me to type their names.

NO ONE should wear 22 for the Giants ever again. No one should have worn it for the last several years. And yet Murphy continues to brainlessly dole it out to, well, pretty much anyone…….

And I’m not listening to the static about teams only retiring numbers if the player gets into the HOF. The Braves did it with Murphy. And they retired Chipper Jones # like a minute after he retired. There are probably many other examples across MLB of teams retiring numbers because of what the number means to their specific fan base.

And THAT is the core reason why the Giants should retire #22. Because of what he meant to the fan base. There is ZERO reason that teams should be held hostage by the stupid HOF and their elitist approach to those they accept or those they keep out.

You can read Byrnes’ blog post about this at byrnes22.com or you can find this worthy grass roots movement on twitter at #Retire22

59 Responses

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  1. zumiee said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:33 am

    I agree. And I’ll even go as far to say that I’d like to see a Will Clark statue at the ballpark someday. And a Timmy one, too. Those two players represent winning eras of the team.
    No offense to Orlando Cepeda, but that Cepeda statue at the ballpark means very little to me, and I’m sure doesn’t mean that much to a lot of the fans walking past it. Cepeda had some good numbers for the Giants, but he doesn’t, individually, represent anything particular to the history of the Giants. He got a statue because he made the Hall of Fame, but a big chunk of his career was with other teams.

    • Flavor said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:43 am

      100% totally agree on Cepeda.

    • chipower9 said, on August 23, 2013 at 11:55 am


    • snarkk said, on August 23, 2013 at 2:02 pm

      I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the Cepeda statue. Where is it?…

  2. salty said, on August 23, 2013 at 10:19 am

    I have to lean No. I get the sentiment and seeing other crap players wearing 22, but Clark 8 years spent half his time with other teams. Dale Murphy was a lot closer to HOF numbers and probably should be in– played 14 yes with atl…chipper is a Lockola…
    Sorry, it demeans the others and opens the door for other very good not great players.
    Does Jack Clark deserve the same honor?

    • Flavor said, on August 23, 2013 at 10:51 am

      no, he doesn’t. Niether does Jeff Kent or Matt Williams. And I’m not just giving a sole opinion, I think anyone who grew up in the 80’s would agree that it’s Will and Will alone who should be retired by the Giants.

  3. chipower9 said, on August 23, 2013 at 11:56 am

    Well, Cepeda was a bit before my time as a Giants fan, but I think there are many who would disagree. But I know enough about Giants history to know that during the time, the dude was huge to the Giants. And he did play most of his career with the Giants (9 seasons). The team with whom he played the second most years was Atlanta at 4.

    I wasn’t an 8-21 year old when The Thrill broke onto the scene in ’86 (I was 29), but I loved him just as much as any other Giant fan. I had a Clark t-shirt that gone “WORN OUT” (had a cartoonish caricature of Will on it). My son “had to have it” when I quit wearing it. He wore it as a shirt to sleep in, and it was like pulling fucking teeth to get him to allow us to wash it. Pretty funny stuff in retrospect…I should have asked him about that while we were having some cold ones last night.

    But should it be retired in memory of Will Clark? I lean a bit no. And Salt asks a good question in regards to Jack the Ripper (he was very popular in his heyday as a Giant, too).

    Will Clark – 15 years, 8 as a Giant
    Jack Clark – 18 years, 10 as a Giant

    I could perhaps be swayed to change on this one, but I lean no at this time.

  4. Rooster said, on August 23, 2013 at 12:24 pm

    What, retiring Monford Irvin’s # 20 just 3 years ago didn’t do it for ya, BF ?

  5. zumiee said, on August 23, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    With Will Clark, you get some memorable legendary moments, but Cepeda doesn’t really have a memorable thing to hang your hat on. He was a very good player, but I think a statue should be for a player considered “magical,” for lack of a better word.
    Plus, if they were going to have a Cepeda statue, they could have had a better one. It’s not a thrilling statue. In fact, what is that pose? He’s taking the ball out of his glove after a routine ground-out? The statue could have at least had him reaching high for a throw.

    I’ll give the Giants credit for trying to keep Cepeda’s Giant’s history alive, and it surely means something to Giants fans older than me, but I just don’t think the statue means much to Giants fans in general. The other ones do. People have respect for Cepeda, but not much love, I think. They’re indifferent to that statue. And I would think that’s the last kind of statue that you want- one that people are indifferent to. Anyone ever see people posing for photos in front of the Cepeda statue? That’s your biggest sign right there. The other statues constantly have people posing in front of them. Think how often fans would pose in front of a Will Clark statue. It would be off the charts.

    • blade3colorado said, on August 23, 2013 at 1:29 pm

      Just my take Zumiee, but your rationale holds water until the last two sentences. Yes, Cepeda was “a very good player” as you pointed out, but not really an outstanding player, as he was for the Cardinals, where he won the MVP during his “magical year.” Since it wasn’t with us, who cares? Right? By the by, in fairness to Cepeda, he was the second National League player, after Carl Hubbell to win the award unanimously. He and future Cardinal Albert Pujols are also the only players in baseball history to win Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player awards unanimously. He was also the first Latin player to win the home run and RBI titles.

      However, your last two sentences could be applied to any “very good player.” Think about it this way – Willie Mays transcends eras. So does Willie McCovey. However, 25 years from now, people will be saying the same thing about Will Clark’s statue as you are saying about Cepeda’s statue. Both were good, not great (albeit, as I have pointed out, Cepeda easily had the better career). Two generations from now, NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE WILL BE POSING in front of a Cepeda or Clark statue. In short, it’s all relative to the era you grew up in.

  6. Nipper said, on August 23, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    I liked Will Clark but not enough to worry about his number or his place in Giants history. Popularity of a former player is not enough to retire a number.

  7. Alleykat said, on August 23, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Will Clark can have a statue,just not outside AT&T Park.
    “It can be located next one of the beer booths inside with Will dousing Gary Parks over the head”
    I would personally get my brews in that line to see that statue.
    Hey I’m guaranteeing a Giants Victory tonight!!
    I have an outstanding record going on my Birthday today,and even in this dismal year they will not let me down tonight…Doesn’t hurt to have “The Undertaker” throwing as well. 🙂

  8. snarkk said, on August 23, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    I’m cool with a Will Clark statue. I’d say he meant more to the fans than Jack Clark did, fairly easily. I was a fan over both player’s eras, and Jack was a good, but spotty player. Kinda moody. No statue for him. The plaque on the wall is enough. Statue for the Thrill, but no number retired. Tito Fuentes was a very very popular player for a long time, and helped get them into a divison title in ’71. He doesn’t get his number retired. If Kent gets into the HOF, I’ll say he’s ELIGIBLE to get his number retired, but they don’t have to. And, I doubt Murph has ultimate number responsibility. If Baer tells him don’t hand out 22, he won’t…

  9. zumiee said, on August 23, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    Snarkk, the Cepeda statue is at the NW corner of the stadium, near the 2nd and King intersection, across from MoMo’s.
    For any people who haven’t been to the ballpark yet- the Mays statue is at the SW corner, the Marichal statue is at the SE corner, and there’s an SF Seals mascot statue at the NE corner. The Willie McCovey statue is across McCovey Cove.
    If anyone’s wondering where would new statues go….that plaza behind the ballpark, where the Seal statue is, has room:

    • snarkk said, on August 23, 2013 at 5:22 pm

      I’ve been by there a lot, I must have never looked at it, or realized what it was…

  10. unca_chuck said, on August 23, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    Hac man and Kevin Mitchell should get consideration then. Fricking Robby Thompson. I dug ’em all. Chris Speier as well. Williams was on his way to breaking the HR record the year of the strike. He’s at least on par with Will. I’d have to say no. Or you do open the floodgates.

    • blade3colorado said, on August 23, 2013 at 3:49 pm

      Fuck statues . . . Give all of those dudes jobs as utility players. I have no doubt in my mind that Mitchell, Hac man, Thompson, Speier, and Williams can perform as well as Arias, Blanco, and Torres. 😉

      • unca_chuck said, on August 23, 2013 at 5:14 pm

        Hac man looks ready . . .Same with Speier.

  11. SanDawg said, on August 23, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    One of my brothers is 61 and he would argue strongly that Cepeda deserves a statue. I think back in the day, fair or unfair, both Cepeda and McCovey were more popular in SF than Mays–and I think Cepeda was especially outgoing and loved by the fans. Plus he is back in the fold with the team and hawks those excellent ChaCha bowls when he’s not getting pulled over for smoking pot on I-80. Yes, for me, Cepeda is a bit of a reach, but I think plenty of Giants fans appreciate the statue. I agree he should be swinging the stick in his statue.
    Re Clark and Clark, I grew up with both and feel Will towers over Jack bigtime. However, I’m just not quite down with retiring Will’s number and I’m definitely not up for a statue for Will. Damn right he was a special player and a key part of that group that led the resurgence of the team back into prominence, but I think the competition to have your number retired number by the SFG is too fierce and The Thrill can’t hang with Mel Ott and the boys. The next statue should be Barry and then Timmy–even if his arm falls off tomorrow.
    …and while we’re on the topic, I still don’t like ALL teams retiring 42 and I think it is a joke that Moffitt and LeMaster have plaques at ATT.

    • Alleykat said, on August 23, 2013 at 4:10 pm

      Marvin Beard as well with a plaque San Dawg.
      What a fuckin joke..He was Dusty’s pet project all those years, like how Boch kept sending out Randy Winn after he was clearly toast.

    • zumiee said, on August 23, 2013 at 4:31 pm

      S-Dawg, yeah, there’s a whole issue I’m undervaluing- how much the future is “statue blocked,” because of Barry Bonds. If the Giants build a new statue of someone who isn’t a Hall of Famer, and isn’t Barry Bonds, then the media will be all over the Giants to admit that Barry will get no statue because of steroids. The Giants simply want Barry Bonds, and the whole issue of Barry Bonds, to stay away.

      • zumiee said, on August 23, 2013 at 4:32 pm

        And it may be the reason the Giants might be “retired-number blocked” for a while.

  12. unca_chuck said, on August 23, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    The plaques are for 10 years service, nothing more IIRC.

    • SanDawg said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:28 pm

      That doesn’t sound right to me. I’m gonna walk my Orange Sombrero wearing ass out there and see if each of those guys played 10 years with SFG. I’ll bet you a Cha Cha bowl, some don’t.

  13. Flavor said, on August 23, 2013 at 6:13 pm

    Just to clarify, I’m not suggesting ANY other non-HOF should have their # retired. I loved HacMan, Williams, all those dudes. But Will Clark changed the culture in SF. Others were part of the change, but he was the guy that just had *it*. And as you can see, his legacy has had great staying power. Ask anyone who their favorite baseball player of all time is (from those who grew up during his time in SF) and they will still, to this day, say The Thrill. Not Williams or Mitchell or HacMan or Jack Clark or Robby Thompson or Jeff Kent or ANY of those guys. It’s Will Clark, all the way across the board. I’m totally with Byrnes on this. And pretty much everyone I grew up with.
    But hey, if they don’t retire his # they could do worse than a statue of him in pretty much whatever pose of that swing that they choose to go with…….

  14. xoot said, on August 23, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Al Rosen, an excellent 3B himself, drafted Will Clark (a Golden Spikes winner, easy choice) and Matt Williams. He brought Robbie Thompson up. I remember Will Clark as a crucial part of the team in that era, but I remember a lot of other players, too. No way his number deserves to be retired. Kent? Bonds? Absolutely, although they’ll both have to wait until they’re inducted into the bullshit HOF.

    • xoot said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:29 pm

      To be clear, Rosen and Roger Craig, imo, changed the culture of the Giants, and many players joined in, preeminent among them, Will Clark. Dusty Baker came along as a coach through that period and had some momentum when he took over in 93. (All of that happening in the shadow of Lurie’s trying to sell the team to some guys who intended to move the team to Tampa.) Actually, when you look at it that way, the team vs. owner story stands out. Really, those were terrific teams.

  15. zumiee said, on August 23, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    I was reading a TV review column the other day, and the reviewer used a term I’d
    never heard before: “hate-watching.” It’s used to describe when someone
    continues to watch a bad show just to laugh at how bad it is. I don’t know that
    I had ever done that, until….this summer! And I’m not talking about Giants games. 🙂 🙂
    I guess, technically, I’m hate-watching “Under The Dome.” The show is so marvelously bad
    in such new ways each week, that it’s become the laugh-outloud surprise of the summer. Bad
    writing, wretched acting, plot-holes and logic gaps galore, and incompetent
    continuity errors all combine to make the show a great satire of itself.
    But the jokes on ME, though- the series just got renewed for a second season.

    “Firefly,” “Wonderfalls,” and “Boomtown” only got one season, but “Under The
    Dome” gets a second season?!
    That just ain’t fair.

    Actually, watching Dodger games would qualify as hate-watching. 🙂

    • blade3colorado said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:43 pm

      Zum, the book was monumentally bad as well. I rarely read Stephen King anyway, but when I do, he usually impresses me (e.g., The Stand is one of my favorite episodic novels). Under The Dome was only good for ensuring I got a good night’s rest, as it worked perfectly as a sleeping pill. It must have taken me 4-5 months to finish that book . . . Usually, I knock out a novel in a week or two, depending upon interest.

  16. SanDawg said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    I have a friend who “hate-listens” to Howard Stern. He loves to bang on the guy, but he keeps on listening. Stern’s gig is not my cup of tea and I don’t listen to him period.
    I used to hate-listen to Silverchair. Some of the lyrics were so bad that I started to wonder if they wrote them that way on purpose just for kicks—which made me start to think perhaps the lyrics were actually fantastic.
    “There is no kitchen and there is no sink. The water out of the tap is very hard to drink”

    Last thing on Will Clark—I loved the guy too, but him leaving for an obvious highest bidder contract did leave a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. The Giants had a great team, just suffered the awful situation of winning 103 and NOT making the playoffs, and he took off. I’m sure he had grown weary of the Giants becoming Barry’s team, but I think he would have really cemented his Giants legend if he had played another 5 years for us.

    • James said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:31 pm

  17. James said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    “What, retiring Monford Irvin’s # 20 just 3 years ago didn’t do it for ya, BF ?”

    At least in my book, that line would get the Rooster one free pass the next time he sets off a Flap shit storm.

    • SanDawg said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:38 pm

      I’m not gonna give Rooster a pass, but throwing up a Sparks video gives you a pass for the next OPS or Body Language Rebuttal Shitstorm you cause James!
      I’m out the door and off to cool places with the kids and friends.

    • Flavor said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:38 pm

      I was at that game. The ceremony didn’t do much for me, I had no idea who the fuck he was. If the team ever gets around to retiring #22, as they should, I’ll get a little more jacked up……

  18. James said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    I read Buster’s lips and I think he said something like “Don’t you dare pass me in OPS, you big cryin’ doofus.”

    • unca_chuck said, on August 23, 2013 at 8:20 pm

      Well, he said ‘call me off’ but go with that.

      • James said, on August 23, 2013 at 8:50 pm

        Sound advice from Buster, but given the end of the play on the McCutchen grounder, Belt probably didn’t want to risk being accused of making false claims.

  19. Flavor said, on August 23, 2013 at 7:46 pm

    Diggity—-I don’t really remember how I felt when Thrill left. There was some shit that went down behind the scenes with how management viewed his personality and the way he conducted himself. And maybe he just wanted to score the deal, certainly not unusual. I’ve never freaked out when my fav players leave, even Joe.
    Honestly, the thing that killed part of my soul was a couple of years ago whenTwin posted that SI article about him. It killed me to read that. I found out that Will the Thrill is a fucking tool. But you know what? I don’t care. It doesn’t change how I felt growing up or how he impacted my life as a baseball fan or a baseball player. And I know Twin was just harmlessly posting a link but I can’t really….I can’t get past wishing he had never posted it.

  20. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 23, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    Hey! got an email from Marty Lurie tonight and he said, sure, I can stop by for his pregame on Sept. 7 and be sure to bring the book. I’m all legit now, girls!

    • blade3colorado said, on August 23, 2013 at 8:41 pm

      Quite cool. By the by, I just sent Jean a message on Facebook . . . Asked her to show up for the Flap fest on the 7th. She hasn’t responded yet.

      • chipower9 said, on August 26, 2013 at 8:14 am

        I have pinged her a couple of times on this, and just to check and see how she is doing…no comment to date.

      • blade3colorado said, on August 26, 2013 at 9:34 am

        Doesn’t sound like she will make it. She is doing well though . . . Just busy.

    • Flavor said, on August 23, 2013 at 8:53 pm

      very nice. Get the time frame. We are also meeting Ted before his thespian antics. It’s right across the street and we have several reps to go back and forth if necessary. And while it’s only about a 50-50 shot, my dad might be in town for all of this and he wants to come if he is here……..

    • chipower9 said, on August 26, 2013 at 8:12 am

      That is bad ass. Good news, Pawlie…

  21. unca_chuck said, on August 23, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    By the time Clark left, at least for me, it was pretty well-known the shit that Clark was causing with the black players in the club house. It sucked to know that, but my take was, he’s a cracker from Mississippi, and he is what he is. Has he learned? Sure, I guess. In the end though it doesn’t change how I feel as him as a player. Cobb was a major league dick, but there are millions of people who think he was the best ever.

    I was pissed when he left. But I was pissed when Perry left. As I was when Williams got traded.

    • James said, on August 23, 2013 at 8:36 pm

      Actually, The Thrill is a

  22. James said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:02 pm

    I dislike Clint Barmes as much as any Dodger. He is a shitty player, yet he has driven in 41 runs against the Giants with an OPS below 600 in 287 ABs. That is insane, even given his Rockies tenure.

  23. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    I liked Will the Thrill and would say he carried us in 1989, correct? But because of my age, y’all know Mays is my guy. But there are parallels. Like Magnus, I brush off, rationalize, or ignore stuff I hear that puts Mays in a negative light personally. But like Magnus regarding Will Clark, it doesn’t matter in the sense that it is impossible for that to detract one iota from the *thrills* I experienced watching Willie Howard Mays Jr. as a kid — and remarkably, it was for a remarkably short time.

  24. willedav said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:31 pm

    Clark (will) was one of those countless guys we all have known and played with—if he was on your team, great, but everybody else thought he was either an idiot or an asshole. Solid hitter with a great swing, sure. Retire the number/statue? uh, no.
    And if byrnes thinks it’s a good idea, that about settles it for me right there. This is the guy who was solidly on board with hitting Belt in the 8 spot last year. Wonder what he thinks of that now?

  25. PawlieKokonuts said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    O ye gods and goddesses, ye demigods and demigoddesses, yea even ye quatrogods and quatrogoddesses, grant unto us, ye Giants, one fitting and “mirabile visu” end to this game, a come-from-behind, melodramatic ninth-inning walkoff for the home team in the city of St. Francis, who may intercede for us also if in the mood. Amen.

    • James said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:49 pm

      Isn’t that “visu mirabile”? Did you screw up the invocation? Can we blame you?

      • James said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:56 pm

        Nope, all I had to do was google it.

  26. blade3colorado said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    The 3 fat guys in Panda pelts behind the back stop look ridiculous. The “Panda” look is hilarious.

  27. James said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    Here is the list of HOF 1B men:


    Will was a better player than a few of those guys, including Tony Perez.

  28. blade3colorado said, on August 23, 2013 at 9:46 pm


  29. blade3colorado said, on August 23, 2013 at 10:02 pm

    This team was worse than the 2013 Giants (I think) . . .

  30. Macdog said, on August 23, 2013 at 10:48 pm

    I’d like to see a statue of The Thrill punching Oquendo while holding that little shit in a headlock.

  31. SanDawg said, on August 23, 2013 at 11:19 pm

    Great day of posts in my opinion.
    Before I go to bed, I really must ask if anyone got my “cool places” reference at 7:38 following up the Sparks video. I think James possibly did, but it may have been a total swing and miss. If there is a lurker out there somewhere who felt that reference, please identify yourself and explain.
    @Pawlie-Did you explain to Mary Lurie that you will be bringing several of your best friends in studio for pre-game on the 7th?
    @James-how can Will the Thrill be better than Tony Perez when Perez was the “greatest clutch hitter of all time?” (I really need to learn how to do those smiley faces)

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