A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Gifting the Art Dealers the NL West as Sabean Sits on his Hands, Silently

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on December 23, 2013

I must say, the Dodgers are going about building their bullpen in a unique way. Bee-Wheezy? JP Howell? Chris Perez? Sure, all guys you’d like to have around but they’re all still slated to come in before K-Jan (who is better than all of them, by far, as a closer). But when you don’t have a budget, this is what you do.

Jansen/Wheezy/Perez/Howell destroy the bullpen team of Romo/Casilla/Affeldt/Lopez (come on, it does). It’s a new world, a new Sheriff is in town  (Art Dealers). Sabean wants to “Kapernick” his flailing bicep after all the *heavy lifting* he’s done. But come on, this isn’t 2010/2012. Players are still getting signed, at reasonable costs. Why stop now?

I have been preaching this and no one cares, but we are major danger of losing next year’s division if all we do is sign the bare bones guys. The bullpen is the most important part of the team, we proved that in both our WS wins. How do you guys think our BP currently stacks up against the ‘Dealers? And how does our offense stack up? And our starting pitching? Should I keep going? Is there anything left? Oh, the bench. Um, never mind….

We have the money to compete with them. Sabean chooses to go “stay the course.” This is a stupid, idiotic approach, especially if money is not an issue which it isn’t for the Giants. I’m disgusted with our off season and unless Sabean is banking on the Dodgers team plane going down at some point this season  we are FUCKed. I guess there’s always the wildcard………..

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  1. Nipper said, on December 23, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    Is Al Rosen still kicking?

    • salty said, on December 23, 2013 at 8:39 pm

      Even Al had to stick to a budget.

  2. salty said, on December 23, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    49ers could get lucky. Wow.

  3. Flavor said, on December 23, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    Turn out the lights. The party is finally over…….

  4. Bozo said, on December 23, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    Yeah that was a win, yup, a fucked up win is still a win. I don’t recall a playoff clinch feeling so much like a cheap cold one.

  5. DJLoo said, on December 23, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    I think it’s definitely all about that extra wildcard. Save a few bucks, make the postseason, and roll the dice…

    • James said, on December 23, 2013 at 10:04 pm

      I think this is exactly the calculus. It might be good for the team to go 2-3 years out of contention to show the ownership that it isn’t all about the fucking ballpark. There’s my Candlestick tribute.

  6. willedav said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:32 am

    Flav, you still dooming it up?
    I agree LA LU and more importantly PS looks good. I can think of a few guys I highly doubt have near as good a season 2014 as last year, but I’m not gonna argue.
    What I am saying is that all this is on paper, or *back of the baseball card* as you so eloquently put it.
    And my argument is Kershaw vs. Wacha. Twice, the rookie kid bested the billion dollar bums and their Cy guy.
    2 trips and their brain trust (oxymoron if I ever saw one) altered the rotation on purpose to set it up, and wtf happened? Kershaw and the rest of them got their asses handed to them and they were sent packing.
    Thankfully it also sent our Gloat boy to that *busy* hiding place…which must be a good one since he’s been using it since ’88.

  7. chipower9 said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:41 am

    Craig – I appreciate the blog, and all you do to create this space for us to discuss our passion of baseball, and specifically the Orange and Black. My opinion? Seriously, I am tired of the rant on Sabean.

    First, if he is pinching pennies, it is only because he has been given a specific budget (and by the way, the budget has gone up every year…this year it is to increase from about 136 mil to 145 mil). If you want to whine about how the Giants are not doing what is required to compete with the Bums, then direct it at Charles Johnson (principal owner…and yes, the RICHEST MFer in baseball), and his ownership group. I have no idea how many swinging dicks are on the ownership group, nor how many have a voting say in how the Giants spend their coin (and I doubt that anyone on this blog does either). So personally, if anyone wants to rant about not spending enough to fleece the lineup, it should be directed at the ownership group.

    Also, this “New World Order” or paradigm being employed by Los Bumbinos is nothing new. The Yankmees have been doing this for a looooong time, and how many WS titles do they have in the last decade or so (rhetorical question – two since 2000). The point is, just because you have fools money, and you spend it like a fool, it does not guarantee you winning jack shit.

    I think Sabean has always done a good job given the financial parameters he has been dealt (by the owners). (8th in 2013…putting them in the top 25%.)
    The Giants will add another arm or two to the bullpen, and maybe make some minor changes with the bench, but that is all that is going to happen. And all the pissing and moaning by the entire Flap Nation will not change that.

    With that said, I think the Giants will be in the thick of it next year. You punch your ticket to the dance, and anything can happen.

    Sorry if I come across as harsh or negative, but I just feel the Sabean bashing is unjustified. That’s my opinion…we all have one.


    • blade3colorado said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:53 am

      Great post and excellent points . . . and similar to what you said Chi – We love ya Flavor, so this has nothing much to do with you, as much as it does for our love of the Giants.

  8. blade3colorado said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:47 am

    I have to agree with WillieD. Flavor, you are one of the most optimistic guys regarding the Giants (and in general), so your take on Sabean is surprising to me. Moreover, as Willie alluded to – you’ve NEVER put much stock on what’s “. . . on the back of the baseball card,” so this makes your take even more of a conundrum to me. I wish the “old Flavor” was back, but that’s your take and I have to respect it.

    One other point (that has been made a few times by me and a couple of others, e.g., Salty) – The Giants double downed on their World Series players (Tiny Tim, Preacher, Loogy Lopez, etc.) and that’s a statement right there that Sabean has confidence in the 2012 WS team. In other words, he is betting that last year was an aberration. I hope he is right. However, we won’t know until the games are played, eh?

  9. chipower9 said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:57 am

    I agree with Blade – this “New Flavor” of the past several weeks has had me scratching my head, too. I too wish the “Old Flavor” was back, but with time, our views do change. If this is the case here, so be it. Bottom line, none of what I said is a personal attack on you. And the beauty of this blog is there is a diversity in the voices and opinions, and by and large, we can all share that respectfully while sharing our passion for the game of baseball, and more specifically, our love of our Giants.

    It is all good.

    • willedav said, on December 24, 2013 at 8:18 am

      Yes, it is, well said Chi…whether anyone’s drinking Yuban or not.

  10. Nipper said, on December 24, 2013 at 8:31 am

    I like the doomster Flavor. Dark and foreboding gets this blog away from all the good cheer and false bravado. Drink the dark roast and enjoy!

    • gianthead said, on December 24, 2013 at 2:25 pm

      I for one prefer the dark side, especially with coffee, liquor, books, movies, chocolate and dark leaf cigars!

  11. chipower9 said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:30 am

    False Bravado Nip? You are SEROIUSLY disillusioned from drinking a cheap hot beverage that is not worthy of being called coffee.

  12. Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:32 am

    Hey I’m not a doomer i think I’m more of a “Reality-ER”. And many of you guys know me, I’m optimistic by nature. If circumstances change I’ll my take on the team will change. And of course, we have the upcoming 2014 season to play out to see if I’m right or wrong. All opinions are welcomed here, btw.
    My take is that the Dealers are putting something together that baseball has never seen before (including the Yanks). We can’t compete with what they are doing financially. I’m not suggesting they try to do that. But there a bunch of guys getting signed that would be nice compliments to what we already have. KellyJohnson can fill in pretty much anywhere. 3 mil too much for the Giants? Pleeeeeze. Howell? Perez? They woulda looked awfully good in our BP– that’s all I’m saying. Bad Penny year is coming. Or I’m wrong and that’ll be better.

    • chipower9 said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:16 am

      I get it and appreciate it, Flavor. While I may regularly be more a “glass half-full” optimist, I also think of myself as a realist. I don’t ever see myself being drastically one or the other (Doomer or Polly). Like you said…2014 will tell the tale, but I think the Giants will be right there. I think they have the required pieces to make the post-season (as long as they perform to expectations and stay healthy).

  13. wswin said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:32 am

    The new Flavor not only doesn’t taste good, but has been prepared all wrong too.

  14. Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:36 am

    And James’ post of the day is one of the best I’ve picked in a long time. If it were longer I’d dump it into “best-of”

  15. Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:38 am

    And btw– same Flavor here. Anyone who read ’07/’08 Flavor would have given him props for being “spot on” about both teams amidst all the “wait and see” rabble

  16. snarkk said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:46 am

    I friggin’ love the “new” Flavor…

    • Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:57 am

      We stand alone my man. We stand alone

  17. snarkk said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:47 am

    Nippy, get off the Yuban. Use that to clean the naugahyde.
    Get some Peet’s so you can serve some decent coffee in that van…

  18. salty said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:58 am

    Not to pile on but I agree chi, blame ownership. I read Sabean had to even request some extra dough to get Morse and Vog signed.

    I think ownerships position might be we gave you $140m last yr and look what happened. Let’s get to the deadline in contention and we’ll be open to stretching the budget for add ons.
    That’s when you can snag some pricey talented players being dumped, not in Dec. No, they won’t do a Boston/ LA deal, but they could get Lopez, Pence and Scutaro type aquisitions.
    No guarantees but right now there is no one out there worth the cost who is significantly better than what they have. For example, think Hembree could be just as tough as Perez. Dodgers spent big on League and look what happened. No guarantees. Wilson has two TJ’s. Who knows?

    • salty said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:06 am

      Wouldn’t mind however seeing a solid utility guy with some pop added.

      • snarkk said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:34 am


  19. twinfan1 said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:15 am

    Christmas Eve, I like it better than Christmas day. Probably stems from childhood. I was a die hard Santa believer and even though I was rarely disappointed with the presents, the anticipation was even greater than the booty. And so it goes with the upcoming baseball season- even this early I’m willing my doubts away- Morse is gonna smoke ’em, Timmy rediscover the magic…my transformation from cynic to Pollyanna begins in earnest. By opening day- we’re gonna win a 100…Christmas Eve. Even my paperboy was on target today- the paper is in the pond. Occasionally he misses and it’s at the foot of the front pathway. He hates that.
    OK-reality-ville. We are not going to beat the Bums by pitching better than they do. Not by returning the whole staff and adding Hudson. Ain’t happening. We *can* outhit them- there are ‘ifs’ there but 4/5’s of the rotation are monster “ifs”. The offense is more plausible- the 2012 Pagan, the 2012 Morse, don’t even need the 2011 guy, the new lean hittin’ machine-Panda, A better year from Buster, continued improvement from Belt. This is all reasonable to hope for, even reasonable to expect- but out pitching them is just not happening unless one thinks that they can lop a full run off of last year’s ERA..
    Good morning, you wastrels…

    • chipower9 said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:19 am

      Good morning, Twin. Nice post…glad to see you here.

    • snarkk said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:24 am

      Your “reality-ville” is spot on the mark.
      BTW, Merry Christmas…

    • twinfan1 said, on December 24, 2013 at 11:04 am

      Craig and I had a very productive correspondence the other day. We hashed things out, decided to let bygones be bygones, and to face the harsh reality – he has no frigging idea of what he’s talking about..
      Hi Craig.

    • WilcoJoe said, on December 24, 2013 at 11:41 am

      Great post Twin!

      • WilcoJoe said, on December 24, 2013 at 11:42 am

        Referring to your 10:15

  20. willedav said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:17 am

    I think pen is one area SF stacks up pretty well vs. LA actually; as long they don’t get overworked by too many Zito esque outings by the SPs. Love to see them pick up one more high grade SP, and like Snarkk I’d have loved to see them go after Balfour.
    All I’m saying is that given the chance to make it happen, Dodgers folded like a freaking old card table vs. Cards and the kid pitcher they were seeing for second time in a week. It would not surprise me one iota if a bunch of them had serious drop offs like what happened to SF last year, and you’d see a repeat of the early 2013 scenario where 2 trips is calling out his players in public and commentators are wondering if he’s intentionally trying to get fired.
    I’m glad Sabes didn’t get into bidding wars over guys like choo and ellsbury and sign expensive long term FA contracts. Sure the Kelly Johnsons of the world can help, but they aren’t difference makers–it’s SF established guys, Cain Lincecum Bum Posey Pence Sando Pagan that will ultimately put them in or out.

    • chipower9 said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:23 am

      Well said, WillieD.

  21. chipower9 said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:21 am

    Craig – one thing I did NOT do on my rant was to call you a Doomer. I was more pointing out that I believe the vile directed at Sabean is unwarranted, and belongs more to the ownership group. I still think Sabean does a pretty damned good job within the confines of the budget with which he is presented.

    Merry Christmas all you Knuckleheads. May the Flap be with you.

  22. snarkk said, on December 24, 2013 at 10:33 am

    Merry Christmas to all Flappers.
    I’m busy the rest of today, then onto a nephew’s house tonight for a traditional SF (Bay Area, maybe) dungeness crab feed for Christmas Eve dinner. I’m bringing a bit of a higher end Muscadet from the western Loire Valley, a white the French traditionally match with seafood in Brittany and the surrounds. On tasting it last week, it has a fairly neutral, steely/minerally quality. But, when it’s mixed with that strong, somewhat fatty, great crab flavor and some rustic bread, should be better than just fine…

    On Dasher, on Dancer, on Prancer, and Vixen
    On Comet, on Cupid, on FLAPPERs, and Blitzen…

  23. Nipper said, on December 24, 2013 at 11:59 am

    Don’t forget to spend….spend….spend at the malls. Your relatives and the economy depends on it. I bought extra cheap Folgers to contribute. As for Sabean he probably has more up his sleeves.

  24. twinfan1 said, on December 24, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    New post, time to talk about your favorite actor, Christmas film, whatever you like.


  25. Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    good to see you Twin, everyone here missed you. I’ll check out your blog post later today.
    But just to be clear about something (to all, not a specific person), I’m not comparing the 2014 Giants to either the ’07 or ’08 team. I think the 2014 team will be very good as long as no one gets injured. What the Dodgers are doing is building in multiple contingency plans. I listened to Colleti on KNBR this morning and he sounded like he’s got this figured out. Remember when everyone mocked them in Spring Training for having too many arms and wondering why they weren’t trading any of it away? Well, as we know, they ended up needing all those arms and then some throughout the year.
    That is sort of the crux of my whole point with my Sabean rants (and I’m fine with what was said by Chi and others—blame it on ownership. not Sabean). But it just feels like Sabean has filled the obvious holes and then that’s it, done, over with. Meanwhile Colleti is signing a bunch of solid relievers at reasonable costs. If Sabean can’t afford a couple extra mil for a “Howell” or a “Perez” or a “K-Johnson” then that is pathetic and Charles should sell the team to someone who will give his GM flexibility to make these low level additions……..

  26. gianthead said, on December 24, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    I have asked this before but may not have not seen someone’s reply, but Charles Johnson and his billions is not the owner correct? He does not have the majority of shares or does he have controlling interest?

    I thought he had an equal share and was just the face of the ownership group and Larry Baer is the voice of the ownership group.

    They have increased payroll year by year, but they definitely have a max cap on payroll. So I think Sabean has his hands tied. But the Scutaro, Affeldt and Morse contracts roughly add up to what Choo is going to get this year. I think Choo could have had a bigger impact than those three combined.

    • gianthead said, on December 24, 2013 at 3:00 pm

      And Merry Christmas you Flappers…

    • wswin said, on December 24, 2013 at 6:15 pm

      But can he play left, 2b, and pitch all at the same time?

      • gianthead said, on December 25, 2013 at 6:32 am

        We have a go to lefty in the pen and I think we could have added Kelly Johnson on our own to play second. Imagine Choo hitting second in the lineup and playing lock down defense…

  27. DJLoo said, on December 24, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    Back when the Giants made some of the key trades in their history such as the Chicago 7 deal, the Matt Williams/Kent + deal, etc. was payroll any consideration ? for either side? I really don’t think so. I doubt those trades even required ownership approval. Now I bet almost every trade does.

    • gianthead said, on December 24, 2013 at 3:06 pm

      Bob Lurie was a tight ass, I think he certainly had a say in every major move. The difference was that when he was running things, no one was making more than a couple of million at the very top end of baseball. So the overall scale of contracts was all fairly relative and the overall dollars in baseball and franchise values was all very finite.

      Remember when they signed Bonds, it was for an unimaginable 7 years and $42 mill if I can remember the terms…

    • xoot said, on December 25, 2013 at 8:33 pm

      DJL–I still think Neukom got tossed to the curb because, without ownership group approval, he agreed with Sabean to dump Rowand and to sign Beltran for the late season run in 2011.

  28. unca_chuck said, on December 24, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    There’s a long time til April, and I’m thinking some shit will happen between now and then. How much I have no idea. But there must be a trade in the works. Or it’s a Brad Penny year.

  29. paulinasia said, on December 24, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Christmas morning in China, a sort of dreary grey bone-chilling day, but it’s Christmas nonetheless. I will be teaching all day today, damn heathens… 🙂 Just want to wish all Flappers a Merry Christmas. Christmas Eve was also my favorite time with family, and last night I was missing it, even though I haven’t been back in the US at Christmas since ’04. God bless ’em, a little group of students was wandering around tne university campus singing carols in English and lighting those *candles in paper bags* things that float up into the sky, very festive. As for dooming or reality, I’m a bit with Craig and Snarkk, feeling like Sabean doesn’t *seem* to be doing enough, but it’s also still only December and feel that he’ll do more. The Dodgers likely are going to win a lot of games; the best way for the Giants to keep pace in the West next season will be to beat LA as often as possible when they go head to head. Every game against LA will be meaningful in that regard, and that’s great to stoke the rivalry. Can’t worry about what the Dogs are doing when the Gints ain’t playin’ ’em. And on we go. Warm and festive holidays to all of you.

  30. unca_chuck said, on December 24, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    The Yankee comparison is valid. As in they haven’t done shit in their last spending binge. They were winning when they drafted Rivera, Jeter, etc. sure, the paradigm now appears to be spend spend spend, the game is still played on the field. Boston got better by dumping their bloated salaries and getting (relatively) small-potatoes guys. The Cards got better by losing pujols, not signing him. These great paper teams usually don’t win. I have no illusions as to know who does what this year, but I’m not too worried about this season.

    Besides, we just witnessed the pick at the stick. The Catch IV? What better way to close the joint? Good to see mays there yesterday. Montana? Couldn’t be bothered.

    • DJLoo said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:29 pm

      It did work once for the Yanks – 2009.
      That off season they had signed Sabathia, Teixeira, Burnett and Swisher.

  31. zumiee said, on December 24, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    I thought ESPN did a nice job of honoring Candlestick Park during the Monday night game. Ultimately, the players and fans made a lot of memories there and it’s been cool to reflect on that.

  32. twinfan1 said, on December 24, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    I thought it was pretty darn cool of Matt Ryan and the boys to make the last game one to remember…it’s no easy feat to get that throw to end up in Navarro’s hands. Probably the best pass he’s ever thrown. A friend of mine in the organization says he saw Jed write him a check after the game…

    • Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:37 pm

      I’ve watched lots of different video of that play many times. In one of them they key in on Ryan’s face after the pick-six. He’s not mad, he looks indifferent at first. But then you watch his eyes, they’re shooting around the stadium. He’s just a dude playing on a team going nowhere who was appreciating an epic moment in sports.
      I have a new appreciation of him.

      • DJLoo said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:49 pm

        The Falcons were my pre-season pick to win the Super Bowl.

      • DJLoo said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:49 pm

        …..over Houston.

      • Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 8:02 pm

        I’ll believe that when I see it but that gave me a solid laugh

      • twinfan1 said, on December 24, 2013 at 8:24 pm

        Even though it was a pass he shouldn’t have thrown, it really was a fluke that we got the Int. He’s a great pure passer. With time he’s as good as it gets.I watched him, too. He knew they had played a terrific game against a team with a lot to lose. On their turf.
        Obviously I’m imagining what he might have been thinking, but I guess it’s close. And it really was a great game, IMO. Night all. Merry Christmas Eve.

  33. Flavor said, on December 24, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    And Chuck, comparing the Yankees and the Dodgers (now) only makes sense on the surface. There are a ton of underlying things the Dodgers are doing from an organizational foundation standpoint that the Yanks never did. If I get bored between now and tomorrow am, I’ll write a thread about it. Otherwise, merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

    • unca_chuck said, on December 24, 2013 at 9:21 pm

      Maybe they are building the next dynasty. Maybe they crater for 2 years and sell these guys off.

      Until they do something, it don’t mean shit to me.

  34. Nipper said, on December 24, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    Merry Christmas!

  35. Macdog said, on December 24, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the blog
    Not a Flapper was stirring, not even Sandawg.

    A very Merry Christmas to all!


  36. willedav said, on December 25, 2013 at 8:09 am

    I don’t see how the Dodgers are building a foundation for anything, including their pen.
    Most of the team is hired hands–AGon, Hanley, Uribe, Crawford, Ethier, Johnson (to replace another one Mark Ellis). They haven’t come up with any IFers out of their farm system worth shit in a long time, and the kid Gordon at SS, a position Hanley isn’t going to be able to handle much longer, is useless. They dumped off two back ups, Schumaker and Punto.

    In the OF, you have the Puig monster, exposed in playoffs and not exactly a management favorite, Ethier basically a $17 mil platoon guy, and Crawford, who did have a nice half year but is no longer a speed guy and way overpaid. No one knows what they are going to do with Kemp, who seems a shell of his former MVP worth self. Only other back up has been Van slyke kid who went up and down btw LA and AAA. This could be serious area of concern for them 2014; as I said earlier it wouldn’t surprise me to see serious drop offs from all these guys..

    The top 3 of rotation is solid, tho Greinke seems to wear out his welcome and get antsy to leave every few years. Haren? Barbs? Not guys I worry about.
    As to the pen, I don’t get dumping off Belisario and keeping the way more expensive League, who pitched like shit. Perez is coming off major disappointment, and let’s see how/if Wilson can handle a full season of pitching. His last one, 2011, wasn’t very good. Rodriguez isn’t better than Lopez either. Stockpile all you want, but other than Jansen (who also missed time with injury) there’s a lot of mediocrity.

    Imo all the Dodgers have done is add insignificant pieces to what they already have—and like SF last year are counting on big seasons from guys who got it done for them in division winning year. Giants re-signing of Pence is a better move than anything colletti did, and he is a better player than anyone they picked up. No way do they compare to Sabes getting Scutaro for Culberson, Pence for Nate, and the Pagan steal, plus what he did in 2010–and these of course all resulted in those 2 World Series wins, something Colletti is still dreaming about.

    So stop dooming or *reality-ing* and enjoy your Holiday!

  37. unca_chuck said, on December 25, 2013 at 8:18 am

    Bingo. Their farm system isn’t rated very high. Until they do something other than spend money, all they’ve done is spend money.

  38. Flavor said, on December 25, 2013 at 8:20 am

    new thread.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 25, 2013 at 9:00 am

      Much appreciated. Usually, I don’t figure this out until 4-6 hours later. 🙂

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