THE San Francisco Giants Blog

Masahiro Tanaka and All Those Pitches

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 2, 2014

It’s anyone’s guess as to what Tanaka will get but it’s almost certainly going to be north of 100 million dollars. It’s been interesting to watch the dichotomy between GM’s wanting to sign him to a big deal and the same GM’s not wanting to sign him to a big deal due to concerns about the volume of pitches he’s thrown over his career. I wouldn’t worry about his arm. He’s been training that arm his entire life. That’s the problem with pitchers today. They can’t throw deep into a game because they don’t have the arm strength to do it.

While I was in Oregon visiting friends this Summer I watched a Little League game that my friend’s son was playing in. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. The game was totally dominated by the pitch count. The game was basically just a merry go round of pitchers coming and going. One kid was lights out but was gone after 5 hitters. My buddy’s team lost because he miscalculated the number of pitchers he was using and had to use like the 9th best pitcher on the team in the final inning and the kid walked a couple of hitters and then gave up the game winning hit, a crushed ball that hit the wall out in center field. And this was a regional championship game…..

If this is how pitcher’s arms are now conditioned in the United States then it’s no wonder they can barely throw 100 pitches in a game even if they’re pitching well.

Back in the late 70’s I was one of 2 starting pitchers we had on our team that won the city championship. Either I pitched a complete game or Steve pitched a complete game. I have a hazy memory of getting relieved once in a game we were dominating. We lost one game that year–Steve was sick so Kendall had to pitch and he got lit up. He got relieved by our first baseman, I think.

The point is that we have pitchers on strict pitch counts now because we’ve trained arms down to the need for pitch counts. And that’s just dumb.

Tanaka’s arm will be fine.


61 Responses

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  1. Nipper said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:30 am

    BLEEP pitch counts. Damn even Jeep isn’t American anymore. What’s happened to America? I walk around and no one is speaking English! What happened?

    • zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:49 am

      When “Firefly” got cancelled after only one season, that’s when I knew our nation had jumped the shark.

      • zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:50 am


  2. zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:36 am

    And pitchers, back in the day, were part of 4-man rotations, pitching on 3 days rest, while piling up their pitch counts. Did they have more sore arms back then? I don’t remember it being that way. Maybe my memory is hazy on that, but I don’t remember all the DL stints for pitchers like there are now.
    Several days ago Mulder mocked Sabean on Twitter when Sabean said Mulder wanted to make a comeback. Well…..

    “ANAHEIM — The Angels have agreed to terms on a Minor League contract with veteran starter Mark Mulder, the two-time All-Star who hasn’t pitched competitively since 2008 and hadn’t really considered a comeback until this past fall.

    The contract — first reported by ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick on Wednesday — includes an invitation to Spring Training and will pay Mulder more than $6 million if he reaches all incentives, an industry source confirmed. The Angels have not confirmed the signing.

    Asked if Mulder would be willing to go to the Minor Leagues if he doesn’t crack the Angels’ rotation out of Spring Training, his agent, Brian Charles of Big League Management Company, said: “When the time comes, we’ll evaluate the situation. Right now, though, he’s looking forward to the opportunity to start in the Angels’ starting rotation.””

  3. zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:44 am

    S-Dawg, in addition to a cool football season for SD St., I see the men’s basketball team is at #21 in the poll. I’ve seen a couple of their games on ESPNU. Fisher has done a great job of building up that program.

    • willedav said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:59 am

      I really liked the team they had last year and that kid in the NBA now, Jamal franklin. Fisher is great coach.
      Tough conference, good b-ball in Mtn West.
      Watched St. Mary’s the other night, they look good too, but next is at Zags.
      Cal men at Stanford tonite. Cal might not be full strength, Dawkins has a couple kids out for the year and he wasn’t deep anyway. Battle of great guards Cobbs/Randle and emerging posts–see who wins Solomon/Nestac match up. Last year end of season dawkins team blasted monty at haas and spoiled chances of conference title. Battle of tempos, I think this year.

  4. willedav said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:18 am

    Pitch count nonsense at mlb level is unfortunate, but I don’t know how otherwise you would regulate younger kids. With all the traveling teams nowadays that play all summer and into October at middle school (6th grade even) age, kids would just get blown up if left up to the dads. the thought of HS kids having TJ surgery is sickening.
    HS ball used to restrict innings in a week, but again stressful innings and pitches thrown under duress can vary quite a bit. But I think some restrictions need to be in place to insure modicum of safety, such as it is.

  5. Chipower9 said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:19 am

    Pitch counts are for pussies. I really do not like how the game has changed in that regards.

  6. chipower9 said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:25 am

    Wonder if Blade dashed out and picked-up some legal skunk for the new year???

    Take 5…smoke ’em if ya got ’em…

  7. unca_chuck said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:36 am

    Dawg, Harbaugh and Roman certainly have taken the brunt of a lot of dissatisfaction with the play calling this year. Me being one of them. Some of this was due to the fact we had no WRs, but there were times where this team still struggles with getting plays in on time, getting any kind of offensive flow, and most especially, getting 1st downs on 3rd and short. What Shaw did yesterday is EXACTLY what Harbaugh and Co. try to do for the Niners. Bring in the Jumbo package and try to stuff in through the line.

    Problem is, EVERYONE knows what’s coming and the defenses will put 9 guys on the line. You can’t block 9 with 8 and expect it to work. It didn’t yesterday, and it doesn’t for the 49ers.

    If they had any sense (and maybe Harbaugh will try things differently in the playoffs), they would put in 4 WRs, spread them wide, and THEN run up the middle. Or (gasp!) run play action. AnNd hit VD on a 4 yard drag route. The point being, the Niners have killed a lot of their own drives by doing what Shaw did yesterday. Sucks that it lost the Rose Bowl for Stanford. That play got stuffed all night. And in the AZ game, the Niners had 3 3rd and 1s, and 1 4th and 1. They ‘gained’ -10 yards. 2 went for 0 yards, and 2 went for -5 each. No 1st downs. That is a recipe for disaster in the playoffs.

    • Irish Kevin said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:52 am

      Yes, yes it is a recipe for disaster!

    • willedav said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:55 am

      When you have a QB who can run like Kap, why not fake the dive and bootleg it? Jeez, old fart slow as hell guys used to make that play work all the time. so did Alex Smith couple weeks ago for a TD.
      Or, as they did at goal first time, throw the play action to Davis. Cards all bit on the fake and Kap had two guys in flat being defended by one. easy money TD.
      Vs. Seattle, Kap’s rollout run left on final drive before the FG got SF the first down and kept clock running. Huge play, Hawks couldn’t stop it and ran out of time to try and score again.

  8. unca_chuck said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:42 am

    Right, Willie. If baseball was strictly summer time, I’d expect pitch counts wouldn’t be that important, but these kids (or parents) that are serious about it play year round now. I think by HS if these kids are going for it, they can stretch it out, but ages 10 through 16, there should be limits. And by junior-senior year they won’t be playing year round anyway.

  9. Irish Kevin said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:49 am

    Hey gentleman, happy new year to you all!

    Ah the great debat over pitch counts, I want to say that during the 60’s and early 70’s the mound was higher? So we’re there more strike outs? Didn’t Marichal pitch an epic 15 inning game? 120+ pitches. IMO pitch count should not come in to play till age 30. Maybe, I would love to know what kind of arm problems they have in there 50’s or 60’s. Supposedly a person is at their peak physical abilities from like 18-25? And we have all talked about better conditioning etc. etc. where all the problems start is….drum roll please…MONEY!!! If you have that $100,000 arm are you going to do everything you can to protect it? YES YOU ARE!

  10. Flavor said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:11 am

    Just heard that the Niner gm might challenge Ice Bowl temp record. That’s insane

    • unca_chuck said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:35 am

      Yup, funny thing is, the undergroud pipes used to keep the field from freezing (installed in 1966) mysteriously didn’t work for that championship game in 1967. More than likely to slow down the aerial attack of Dandy Don and Bullet Bob Hayes.

      I think there was an AFC playoff game in the 80s (Cincy and San Dawg?) where the temperature was -40º. Won’t touch that. I hope.

  11. SanDawg said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:35 am

    Chi/Chuck: I appreciate your follow ups to my Shaw take. Good stuff.

    Flav: A tip of the hat to you for zigging when I was sure you were gonna zag and bury Shaw with your lead today. Way to keep me on my toes!

    Zum et al: somehow Steve Fisher has built an actual program at SDSU where 25 win seasons are the norm. Its completely amazing.

    I’m even feeling pretty good about my Sactown Kings these days!

    A guy who grew up with my brothers is a realtor up in Tahoe, but was a hotshot pitcher at San Luis Obispo High when my brothers were there back in the day. I got a full ride to UCLA, but my brothers tell a legendary tale of him going 18 innings in a playoff game at the end of his senior year. A different era to be sure!

    • unca_chuck said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:36 am

      I was wating/expecting that as well . . .

  12. SanDawg said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:41 am

    HE got a full ride to UCLA. I on the other hand was cut from the basketball team at Cuesta College because I
    all I did was “avoid contact and shoot follow-away jumpers”.
    There’s actually a lot of truth to that–though I did have a decent Alex English fadeaway.

    • willedav said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:55 am

      Hey man, Alex English #2 as Dick Callaghan used to say, got himself 20,000 pts. I learned that move the hard way trying to drive in, pull up and shoot. I’m maybe 5-8, so if I didn’t use a fake or a quick move that shot wound up going right back over my head. MJ’s turnaround, like Bernard King’s, was unstoppable. Harrison Barnes is starting to develop that when he posts up smaller defenders.

      Toughest thing to teach kids, tho, esp girls, is that it’s OK to get fouled–draw a personal on your defender, a team foul, and maybe get to the line. works double if the outside shot is off–couple FTs can get the stroke back. Lot of kids like to hang in the air to avoid the contact, wind up increasing the degree of difficulty and making the shot harder, and don’t get the bailout call from refs who figure shot wasn’t going in anyway.

  13. ewisco said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:53 am

    I’ve been coaching little league and pony since 2007. There is definitely a need for PC for the younger guys. we did a lot of throwing in the course of a practice to specfically build up arm strength. we very carefully monitored the guys but as they grow, they develop various growth plate issues that coaches HAVE to be aware of at that age in both their arms and legs. once they get into their teens, the growth plates fuse to the bone and that issue goes away. But with the year round play, pitchers and catchers both need to watch their throwing. I also met a lot of guys who pitched in their youth and blew out their arms in HS, College and the low minors. Back then, TJ wasn’t heard of and your career was over. There are no statistics that i know of that report on how many people that was but with the percentage i’ve encounterd, a lot of guys blew their arm out that we never heard of. so i don’t think it’s a wussification of today’s youth, it’s just reported more. And the whole point of youth sports is to get them to play again next year. they aren’t going to the WS this year so the parents and coaches should just back off and let them have fun while trying to learn the fine points of the sport.

  14. Bozo said, on January 2, 2014 at 11:01 am

    So was that little league rule what got Colorado to try that a few years back?
    When Nolan Ryan became part of the Texas ownership group didn’t he try to stretch out their pitchers more? I seem to recall hearing about that but I haven’t paid any attention to the Rangers so I don’t know how that worked out. Did that have something to do with him leaving that ownership group?

    Like what some of you are saying about the kids playing year round, isn’t that the same with the MLBers that play winter ball? I guess in the old days some players would do a barnstorm tour for extra cash but most just went back home to do farm work or whatever and probably didn’t throw again until ST.

    Speaking of the old days, I’m reading a book by Steve Rushin called “34-Ton Bat”, and I was a bit surprised to read that players were more willing to wear a cup than any kind of head protection. I guess the players thought that wearing a batting helmet would make them look like a sissy but wearing a cup would prevent them from becoming one, or something like that. Man, think about those poor catchers back in the day, no helmets, no masks, no shin guards, hell no padded mitts and no cups the poor bastards.

  15. Irish Kevin said, on January 2, 2014 at 11:05 am

    Well, the other problem with young pitchers are the Parents. Correct me if I am wrong, but typically the parent that has a potential athlete in the making they are in the coaches face constantly. It is either you let my son pitch too much or not enough. If the parent has at least half a brain they would be using the Internet to see what and how a child should develope.

  16. blade3colorado said, on January 2, 2014 at 11:15 am

    You can book this “face plant” next season . . . Any team that signs Ubaldo Jimenez for what he is asking – a four year contract worth $17-20 million per season. I guarantee it. 🙂

  17. unca_chuck said, on January 2, 2014 at 11:17 am

    Ahhh, I see Flav took it to Facebook…

  18. snarkk said, on January 2, 2014 at 11:40 am

    I ruined my elbow in Little League. As a result, I couldn’t play baseball in high school, and putzes I played circles around as a kid played varsity, while I could not bear to even watch one game. I pitched too much in little league games, and then don’t forget practice, too. I rarely threw a curve ball, it was just too much throwing, and throwing using technique that stressed the joint. Kids that young have growing cartilage and ligaments, with overuse the muscles tend to outgrow those tissues and growth centers, and serious, permanent damage can be done to the joint. Pitch counts are IMO extremely important in little league, and necessary. There’s plenty of time to build up arm strength in high school, if the kid is a pitcher. Plus, high school will have better coaching and better technique can be learned that puts less stress on the elbow. Before then, keep your pitching kid’s arm protected, and just let them have fun…

  19. chipower9 said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    When I said earlier that pitch counts are for pussies, and that I didn’t like how the game had changed in that regards, I was talking about MLB. Of course pitch count is important for little league, and to some degree, maybe HS and college.

    Zumie mentioned the days when rotations were four pitchers, and a lot of those guys (on shorter rest) pitched deeper into the game. Anyway, I think pitch count (in the majors) is over-dramatized.

  20. chipower9 said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:08 pm

    I still dream of hearing Renel’s voice over the PA: “And starting today for your San Francisco Giants…Masahiiiiiiroooo Tanaaaakaaaa!

    ONLY 39 days until pitchers and catchers report!

  21. zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:14 pm

    The basketball talk had me reflecting on my own basketball-playing days. I was a starter during my senior year of high school basketball, and then played one season of junior college ball. Even though I got far less minutes in the JC games, I had much more fun that season. My high school varsity coach was a total jerk, and ruined the experience for everyone. In spite of his lousiness, one of our players did persevere and end up playing pro ball in Portugal for many years.
    One of my favorite memories of JC ball was that, when we went on road games, the school gave us MEAL MONEY. It was the coolest thing, and made us feel like pros. 🙂
    I later tried out as a walk-on at a 4-year college and got cut from the team after a few weeks. It was a fun experience even though getting cut. The coach was Claude Terry, a former NBA player. He eventually left coaching relatively soon. His assistant, Ken Bone, ended up a headcoach in the Pac 12, I think, eventually. I remember Ken as young and super-energetic and devoted to making a life as a coach. He had the mentality you have to have for that, which Claude didn’t really have. Claude could still play some ball, though! He got in the scrimmages with us, and just flat-out left everyone in his dust. He blew everyone’s mind.

    • zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:26 pm

      I just looked it up- Ken Bone is the headcoach at Washington St.

  22. chipower9 said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:17 pm

    Also, I previously mentioned that I had heard of a Fan Fest at Candlestick before they knock the old girl down. I wrote Amanda Tugwell (Director of Tours at the Stick), and she was not aware of anything, and suggested I contact the Niners. So I did, and I got a response back from the guy who is the Stadium Operations Coordinator, and he too is not aware of any such events. WTF! Don’t they know we’re trying to plan a damned Flapalooza at the Stick!

    Anyway, if this whole fan fest thing turns into nothing more than a pipe dream, we’ll have to look at other options.

    Some give-aways (the entire give-away schedule is not up, yet) that might work (another Flapalooza at the yard):

    Sat. May 17 – Giants Fedora (to go with our Orange Sombreros from last year).
    Sun. May 25 – Giants BBQ Apron
    Sun. June 8 – Hello Kitty Giants Plush (just kidding…but WTF…it’s my birthday!)
    Sat. June 14 – Mad Bum Camo Cap day

  23. Flavor said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:20 pm

    I hadn’t really considered the year round baseball that get played in good weathered areas nowadays. When we played as kids it was just 3 or 4 months of the year (as I recall).
    As Chuck noted, I got most of my anger towards Shaw out on Facebook last night. Didn’t really have any venom left for today’s thread, plus i try to keep this blog mostly baseball related. And my Stanford brethren mostly don’t come to the blog so Facebook was the best place to let the expletives fly about the incomprehensible decisions that Shaw made last night……

  24. zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    Every year, I go to some Giants games with some folks who put together a package of tickets. The list of games for this season has narrowed down to this so far. It may not end up being all of these, but there’s a possibility it might:
    4/17- Dodgers
    5/14- Braves
    5/28- Cubs
    6/12- Nationals
    6/25- Padres
    7/3- Cardinals
    7/10- A’s
    7/30- Pirates
    8/13 White Sox
    8/28- Rockies
    9/11- D-Backs

  25. zumiee said, on January 2, 2014 at 12:50 pm

    Last season, I missed a GOLDEN opportunity to be the first Flapper to wear the Flapper shirt at a Giants victory. After getting the Flapper shirt at the Flapalooza on 9/7, I went to my last Giants game of the season just a few days later on 9/11. We were many miles down the freeway before I realized I’d forgotten to wear my Flapper shirt!!!
    The Giants defeated the Rockies that day, and I missed a chance at history that day. 🙂

    • blade3colorado said, on January 2, 2014 at 1:10 pm

      A dark day in the annals of Flapperdom.

    • Flavor said, on January 2, 2014 at 1:20 pm

      I’ve walked around town wearing it several times. *Knowing dude head nods* are the typical response.

  26. SanDawg said, on January 2, 2014 at 1:30 pm

    Zum—great hoop tidbits! I remember having a Claude Terry basketball card. I get what you mean about some guys being cut out to be a coach. The guy I work with has great passion for fundamentals and X’s and O’s. He always seems to know what the other team is doing and what we need to do to combat it. For whatever reason, I don’t naturally see all that so easily. I see it more as a fan, I suppose. I’m great at clarifying things when he tries to put in complicated stuff in a hurry and working and talking with guys individually, but being the head guy doesn’t really suit me that well.

  27. chipower9 said, on January 2, 2014 at 1:57 pm

    Damn – Looks like I’ll have to do the honors (Flapper shirt at Giants victory). I will definitely rock it at Spring Training.

  28. James said, on January 2, 2014 at 4:12 pm

    Every time the pitch count issue comes up, I point to this excellent and to my knowledge not yet refuted piece from baseball prospectus:

    It’s a little dry, but not hard to follow and well worth a read. If Sabes had the guts to play the part of a true baseball conservative by moving to a 4 man rotation, I’d never criticize him again . . . unless he picked the wrong 4 🙂

    Bumgarner, Tanaka, Cain, Hudson — I like the look of that bit of wishful thinking.

  29. gianthead said, on January 2, 2014 at 5:12 pm

    Flav, hopefully you got my commiserating Stanford email…

    From my perspective of watching my oldest play baseball from kindergarten through a state championship tournament as a 13 year old last year (he has never pitched) and watching kids pitch, by the time their county team got through all the tournaments and made it to the state tournament, their pitchers were all gassed.

    A bunch of his friends who started pitching at 8 years old have had arm issues. We have friends that have arm injuries at 10 years of age. I dont remember that when i was growing up. Do you Flav hearing of those type of injuries when you were growing up?

    So I think that is why the pitch count rules have permeated in youth baseball…

    • gianthead said, on January 2, 2014 at 5:34 pm

      On top of that, the kids that I have seen with arm issues are the ones who began on travel teams at 8, play on 3 or 4 teams and play all year long. I suspect that those of you who played growing up played baseball in the spring and maybe summer and then were onto other sports…

      I dont understand the parents that I have seen that have subjected their kids to so much pitching year round or letting their kids make the decision on their own…

    • Flavor said, on January 2, 2014 at 5:40 pm

      well, you bet on Michigan St so i don’t know how “commiserating” that email was. LQTM

      • gianthead said, on January 2, 2014 at 7:57 pm

        Touche..but I was still rooting for Stanford, especially after my parlay went down the drain…

  30. DJLoo said, on January 2, 2014 at 5:28 pm

    For all the Perrys, Gibsons, Marichals, Jenkins, etc.who started 40 games and pitched 300 innings per year there are countless others whose careers were cut short by what they used to call “sore arms”.

  31. Flavor said, on January 2, 2014 at 5:43 pm

    And GH–no, I don’t remember anyone I played with growing up that ever had arm trouble. Not a single player (and I played through high school).
    I DID develop arm problems but that was directly related to the 5000+ hours of whiffle ball I played every Summer. I developed some of the sickest pitches the whiffle ball world has ever known. I paid the price, though,

    • gianthead said, on January 2, 2014 at 7:58 pm

      Same here. Never even heard of someone having arm issues…

  32. Flavor said, on January 2, 2014 at 6:05 pm

    Steph Curry is going insane right now.

  33. blade3colorado said, on January 2, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    if bonehead Shaw is going to continue with a “3 yards and a cloud of dust” offense, then sign this kid out of high school . . .

    • gianthead said, on January 2, 2014 at 7:59 pm

      This is my solution for a hockey goalie, just make him 600 lbs…

  34. Bozo said, on January 2, 2014 at 7:39 pm

    I wonder how many players were pitchers in little league all the way to the majors? I guess Timmy was always groomed to be a pitcher. Buster pitched and played SS but is now a catcher and I think we had a pitcher (can’t remember his name) who came up as a catcher. Really, did most ML pitchers start that way or were they position players that didn’t hit that well at higher levels but had developed wicked sliders?

    • gianthead said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:04 pm

      The kids that have I seen with the strongest arms play short often and maybe that is the solution, dont let the kids with big arms pitch before high school…

      • snarkk said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:34 pm

        That is the solution. The Little Leagues always place the best players at pitcher and SS. Just cut out the pitcher piece of it, or only let the kid pitch once every two weeks. If the coach balks, tell him to F off, you’re doing the kid a favor, saving his arm for when it really counts later on in life…

  35. blade3colorado said, on January 2, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    I haven’t seen the Warriors play for the last week, but keeping up with their stats via my FL teams, so I have a question – what’s up with Bogut? His blocks and rebounds have been down since Christmas. Prior to that, he was averaging plus 10 in rebounds and almost 2 blocks a game. Tonight he scored 6 points, 3 rebounds, and 1 assist. He was a perfect sell high candidate around Christmas. Now? Pfffftttt!

    • snarkk said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:35 pm

      He plays more when the opponent has a low post banger. Heat don’t have that…

      • blade3colorado said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:57 pm

        So, he isn’t injured? He only played 18 minutes tonight.

      • snarkk said, on January 2, 2014 at 10:07 pm

        If he was, I didn’t hear about it. Only heard radio snippets tonight, was out of the house — “Beauty and the Beast” show in SF with the Mrs. and the Snarkettes…

  36. snarkk said, on January 2, 2014 at 9:44 pm

    Cal over Stanfoo in men’s basketball 69-62 at the ‘furd.
    Cal fans love Johnny Dawkins…

    • willedav said, on January 3, 2014 at 7:31 am

      they didn’t last year when his team walked into Haas and kicked Monty’s ass, but I think he gets a bad rap from alumni and won’t survive unless they finish strong.
      Imo, his biggest failure isn’t coaching but in recruiting–he doesn’t have enough talent and depth at league (which is very good) level to begin with, and can’t survive injuries. Late game he had to put Gage (a shooter who forgot to score) in there, and he f-ed up 2 or 3 plays at D end where cal scored off hoops or dishes by Cobbs in screen and roll. Solomon and cobbs won their match ups vs. Cards players Nastic and Randle–Powell fouled out, Huestis and Randle took some dumb shots down stretch and they went 10-20 from FT line. You can only lay so much of that on the coach…but ultimately if you lose, he’s taking brunt of it.

  37. Nipper said, on January 3, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    This is off topic…….. but those meat balls over on the previous thread look very good about now.

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