A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Steroid Guys

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 14, 2014

You know, when you look at the all time home run list it’s pretty condemning of the steroid guys. Six of the top 14 on the hr list are known cheaters. And I don’t count Hank Aaron since, according to things I’ve heard, almost everyone was taking greenies. But Bonds, A-Fraud, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, and Manny were all pumped up on that stuff. And while Frank Thomas can look down upon those six with disdain I’m not certain that he wasn’t taking something performance enhancing. Are you?

Question for those that have been to the Hall of Fame: Is there any memorabilia anywhere in that joint related to the six guys I listed above? A bat? A ball? A signed scorecard? Anything? Because if the Hall of Lame is profiting even one cent off of anything produced by those six players then the whole place is a joke and should be closed up or torn down.

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  1. Bozo said, on January 14, 2014 at 9:37 am

    Haven’t been, but here is a page from the Hall showing a Pete Rose Expos hat. Wasn’t he banned from baseball?


  2. Macdog said, on January 14, 2014 at 9:45 am

    And here’s a list showing “top honored players based on the number of gifts made in their name.” Barry Bonds has 4.


  3. Bozo said, on January 14, 2014 at 9:58 am

    This article from 2007 cracked me up. At the time the HOF was displaying 10 items related to Barry but he wasn’t donating his HR stuff and the Hall was getting nervous. WTG Barry, fuck em.


  4. James said, on January 14, 2014 at 10:07 am

    I’m sure others have explored this before, but, giving it a moment’s thought, I am curious why QBs are assigned wins and losses like a pitcher (I’m assuming “QB record” does not have as long a history as wins and losses do for pitchers). Certainly as an analogy, it seems pretty bankrupt to me. They both have to throw a ball with high velocity and accuracy, but there are obviously many other tangible differences between what and how they do things.

    I do get that the QB is the most important player on the field — it’s easier to overcome having a mediocre halfback than QB. But it’s not clear to me that, in general, a QB has as much of an influence on the outcome of a game as a starting pitcher does.

    One example: Sonny Jurgensen vs. Fran Tarkenton. Similar QB ratings, but vastly different records. Are there any pitchers like that?

    • unca_chuck said, on January 14, 2014 at 12:55 pm

      Someone has to take the fall when shit goes bad. Even with a pitcher though, the defense can fail him, baserunning errors, etc. the guy holding the ball takes the good with the bad. Take a look at Matt Cain. In 2008-2009 he had an era well below 4 and posted a 15-30 record. Guys with era’s in the mid 4 had much better records.

      QB record didn’t really play a big part in football untill the forward pass became the way to advance the ball. I think it came into play as a viable strategy in the 20s.

      It’s funny, I’ve been going back and forth with my son regarding QB records, stats, Super Bowl wins and things like that. He says things like Joe Montana’s overrated (not really seriously) because his numbers are nowhere near, say, Peyton Manning. My argument is Peyton’s playoff record should come into play when doling out superlatives regarding QBs. Marino is the be-all end-all regarding reg season-playoff records.

  5. dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 14, 2014 at 10:21 am

    Didn’t McGwire set the rookie HR record in ’87? There must be something from that season in the HOF. Can that be considered untainted? Who knows?

    When I was a kid McGwire lived down the street from my best friend. He built this walled and gated place off of El Pintado Road outside of Alamo. It was sort of a strange location considering Blackhawk is just down the road and provides all the exclusive amenities those rich folk need . We would see him come and go but never interacted with him around his home. He frequented a coffee shop I worked at called Valley Medlyn’s. The place was opened 7-3 and did breakfast and lunch. He would come in late in the afternoons and sit alone at the bar. He always ordered something healthy and didn’t talk much. He struck me as a pretty lonely guy.

    Madden used to come in and decimate the salad bar. I did all the prep for the place so I would get particularly annoyed by that but he is really a nice guy. I used to steal beers from his gazebo as my own personal revenge but that’s another story.

    • unca_chuck said, on January 14, 2014 at 1:01 pm

      Funny thing is, McGwire looked a lot like his team USA teammate Will Clark when they came out of college. 3 years later, McGwire looked like popeye. Clark looked like Clark.

    • snarkk said, on January 14, 2014 at 1:46 pm

      I saw McGwire back in the late late ’80s or way early ’90s when I was out with Mrs. snarkk (then Ms. girlfriend snarkk) at the old Rusty Scupper near Jack London Square one night. An innocuous Tuesday night or something, barely anybody there. He was in a booth with a smokin’ hot brunette. The guy’s biceps looked like tree trunks. He had to be hitting the PEDs, but it didn’t occur to me then. It probably would have if I’d been around him every day. Does anybody actually believe LaRussa when he said he didn’t know McGwire used until McGwire called him and confessed the day before he publicly admitted it?…

      • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 14, 2014 at 2:45 pm

        He used to come into the cafe with a smokin’ hot brunette from time to time. I think they were briefly married. One thing about him that I remember was he was just a big guy. Sitting on the stool at the counter he was taller than me standing.

  6. snarkk said, on January 14, 2014 at 12:46 pm

    Maybe it’s time a new baseball HOF gets started. The current one is a private organization, it is not a part of MLB. It answers to nobody. So, BF could start the Flap BBHOF tomorrow in a one door garage in Palo Alto. The only requirement? You were one of the best, dominant players of your era, as determined by Flappers. Everybody that fits that requirement gets in. You are eligible for one chance in the year immediately following your formal retirement. Up or down, in or out. No waiting, no strategic votes year to year. One vote, you’re in or out based on what you did in between the lines, regardless of whether you were a prick or a saint, whether you ‘roided or ate greenies for lunch every day. What a concept…

  7. unca_chuck said, on January 14, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    1st inductee: Guy Benjamin . . . Hottest 3-game stretch in MLB history

    • unca_chuck said, on January 14, 2014 at 1:03 pm

      Shit. Football on the brain. MIKE Benjamin.

    • snarkk said, on January 14, 2014 at 1:06 pm

      Controversy at the Flap HOF before it even starts.
      Does 3 games = an “era” in MLB history?…

  8. Flavor said, on January 14, 2014 at 4:54 pm

    I don’t really hold the managers responsible for any of the steroid stuff. What were they supposed to do? They probably knew but it was never talked about or never done in LaRussa’s presence. Seriously though, what could LaRussa have done? Benched Canseco and McGwire? That woulda gone over real well with the fanbase and ownership. These guys took steroids for their own benefit. The coaches/owners/etc reaped the benefits without the risks that the users took. That’s another reason why all this sanctimonious bullshit from the writers has to stop. If it feels good to keep Bonds et al out of the Hall because you falsely believe you are defending the integrity clause then don’t let in ANYONE linked to the steroid era. Everyone was in on it, whether they took the shit or not.

    • snarkk said, on January 14, 2014 at 5:02 pm

      Exactly my point. Cut the BS. If LaRussa didn’t know, he was a moron. If he did know, he was as complicit as everybody else in MLB and reaped the benefits of steroid use — so if players from that era can’t get into the HOF, he can’t either, and the same for Torre and Cox. All in or all out — it’s just stupid otherwise…

      • Flavor said, on January 14, 2014 at 5:57 pm

        well, I see that point but the other point I was trying to make is that Larussa wasn’t taking the steroids, he wasn’t forcing them to take steroids (presumably) and I just don’t think there was anything he could have done. What could he have done?

  9. Flavor said, on January 14, 2014 at 6:01 pm

    and another thing, if you take the “all in or all out” approach (and I’m not against that by the way) then remove EVERYTHING ever put into the HOF from a memorabilia standpoint. It shouldn’t be ok that the HOF increases their traffic or gate receipts from fans who come to see the exhibits contributed to by the steroid guys and yet the steroid guys aren’t allowed into the HOF. THAT is stupid. If I was Bonds I’d go there and demand all my stuff back

  10. blade3colorado said, on January 14, 2014 at 6:09 pm

    I have to agree with you snarkk. If we are going to make the Hall of Lame all about morals, then WTF is LaRussa, Torre and Cox doing in there? Also, Cox beat his wife, but he gets a pass? Again, I don’t blame any of these bozos (sorry Clown πŸ™‚ ) for being responsible for their players taking juice, but what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander. In short, these managers aren’t as pure as snow either.

    Me? I say get rid of the entire charade and just make it a museum, without this bull shit about induction as a “Hall of Famer.” What the fuck does that mean anyway? Makes it sound like some Greece or Norse mythology psuedo Valhalla or Mount Olympus. What a joke. This hero worship shit was great before the 1960s began. As long as the news media hid shit from us, e.g., Kennedy’s affairs, Ty Cobb’s racism, government corruption, etc., etc., the Hall of Fame was relevant. Now it’s an anachronism.

    My next rant will be on getting rid of Santa Claus . . . πŸ˜‰

    • twinfan1 said, on January 14, 2014 at 7:07 pm

      I was pretty much with you until you got to Santa.Get the keys for his workshop before you vanquish him.

      • blade3colorado said, on January 14, 2014 at 8:28 pm

        Shot the bastard and took his keys.

    • Flavor said, on January 14, 2014 at 7:10 pm

      I still don’t know what everyone thinks LaRussa should have done.

  11. DJLoo said, on January 14, 2014 at 6:27 pm

    I wouldn’t mind owning Renteria’s home run ball.

    • Flavor said, on January 14, 2014 at 6:58 pm

      I’d prefer the bat

      • snarkk said, on January 14, 2014 at 9:31 pm

        I’d prefer his WS check…

  12. unca_chuck said, on January 14, 2014 at 7:48 pm

    It’s not that LaRussa should or shouldn’t have done anything. It’s that they should be considered as complicit as the players.

    Everyone knew what was going on. From the players up to Selig. They should all be held to the standards that the players are.

    • snarkk said, on January 14, 2014 at 9:30 pm

      What Chuck said…

  13. Bozo said, on January 14, 2014 at 8:41 pm

    Look Mitchell didn’t mention a Red Sox in his report, as a Director for the team, one would thinke he’d at least know the team payed someone to instruct the players on how to use steroids. When Selig testified that he didn’t know shit about usage, there was also contradictory testimony from ex trainers on when they informed MLB on steroid use. Mitchell’s report is as full of holes as Arods butt. Selig, not being arrested for his misleading and or false testimony (as Bonds was) is a wink, wink, nudge, nudge kind of thing. What should LaRussa have done? I don’t know, maybe not defend his guy as much as he did. But, I’m not really going to bust the managers, it was/is rampant in every club house and their job is filling out a line-up card and winning the game. I will bust Selig and MLB because they ignored it to make a profit (and in my opinion, lied about it later). After the 94 strike, baseball lost a lot of fans, MLB looked the other way for Big Mac and Slammin’ Sammy because people were paying attention again.
    But Bonds? One item in the Hall is the HR ball that was donated with the asterisk on it. The HOF is too chicken shit to put up a plaque for BB, maybe say he was suspected of using, nope, but a rich donor can deface a HR ball and the Hall will put that under a spot light. In my mind, that’s fucked up. Barry should donate some items with a hand giving the finger on them.

  14. Macdog said, on January 14, 2014 at 9:51 pm

    I’m only get pissed off that bands like Yes, Tull and ELP get snubbed every year.

    • James said, on January 15, 2014 at 12:06 am

      They certainly have better stats than Jack Morris.

    • unca_chuck said, on January 15, 2014 at 2:34 pm

      Tull was flat incredible live. Saw ’em a few times.

  15. zumiee said, on January 14, 2014 at 11:35 pm

    It was kind of a sick, twisted thing that the writers waited until Ron Santo died before they voted him into the Hall of Fame. What was the point of doing that? That may have permanently soured me on the Hall of Fame.

    • Nipper said, on January 15, 2014 at 3:25 am

      Finally Zumiee you have written something I can get behind.

    • willedav said, on January 15, 2014 at 9:06 am

      good one Zum. Williams and Banks got in, and Santo was at least as good a hitter and much better defender. Plus he stuck with the team all those years as a broadcaster despite physical ailments.
      Check out his numbers on b-r…always around 30/100, walked near as many times as he struck out, high OB and slugging, 9 WAR seasons. deserved better fate than *hall of the very good*.

  16. pawliekokonuts said, on January 15, 2014 at 7:59 am

    I think I saw part of one of Manny’s dreadlocks at the HOF. In the men’s room. It coulda been something else, though. I’ve been wrong before.

  17. willedav said, on January 15, 2014 at 8:12 am

    supposedly it’s down to dodgers and yanks for Tanaka, after which the rest of the dominoes of the remaining SP FAs fall. Hopefully, as others have indicated, SF picks up one of them for front end of rotation.
    Sunday Chron they occasionally run a column from ’60s writers–last week was one by Stan Delaplane about taking a 747 to Hawaii. He and Art Hoppe were my favs, along with following *Odd Bodkins* comic strip. Hoppe’s rants on Nam war were awesome…referencing the infamous *domino theory* I remember him referring to the *Crucial Trucial states*.

  18. twinfan1 said, on January 15, 2014 at 9:32 am

    New Post- The Baseball Prospectus Top Ten SF Prospects. This is the whole enchilada. It’s a big piece so I’ve broken it into segments. The first 12 comments are the segments. Comment 13 shows the Baseball America Top 10, and a link to the Fanraphs top 10, for comparison. The photos are ones that I thought show the guys in action. There is a quite a lot of disagreement but not for #1- Crick is the Man.



  19. unca_chuck said, on January 15, 2014 at 12:43 pm

    No shit, Zumie. What REALLY pissed me off (and likely everyone else) is that EVERYONE knew Santo would get in post-mortem. They couldn’t see to include him before he passed? Horseshit.

    Is this how Bonds and Clemens get in?

  20. Chipower9 said, on January 15, 2014 at 1:15 pm

    I was discussing Bonds getting in with some friends the other day, and a few of them think he won’t get in until he has passed. I think he will get in before then. The more we discuss the whole HOF thing, the more jaundiced I am with the whole fucking thing. The writers are the culprits of most of my disdain (if not all of it).

  21. Macdog said, on January 15, 2014 at 1:49 pm

    Kershaw staying in L.A. with 7Y/$215M deal. Good lord, that’s $30M per year. For that money, he’d better pitch a little better in the playoffs than he did last time out.

    • unca_chuck said, on January 15, 2014 at 1:56 pm

      The Peyton Manning of postseason pitchers!

    • blade3colorado said, on January 15, 2014 at 2:34 pm

      I wonder what happened to the $300 million rumored deal? Anywho, I’ll stand by my belief that you never give a pitcher more than a 3 year contract. Kershaw would obviously be one of the few exceptions, but 7 years? Hilarious.

      Add this contract to the list of 10 worst ever in my opinion (I love the fact that the Bums already have 3 of the worst on this list) . . . http://bleacherreport.com/articles/598612-mlb-free-agency-the-10-worst-contracts-ever-handed-out-to-big-league-pitchers

      • snarkk said, on January 15, 2014 at 2:57 pm

        These LT starter deals really don’t seem to make a lot of sense. But, the owners are rolling in so much $, I guess it just doesn’t matter that the out years are going to be brutal in terms of ROI. Unfortunately, I think Cain’s deal will not look real good in its last 2-3 years. He’s got too much mileage in that arm already…

      • Flavor said, on January 15, 2014 at 4:54 pm

        pretty sure the 300 million dollar deal was the rumor that Cano wanted that much. Of course its true. Who WOULDN’T want that much?

  22. blade3colorado said, on January 15, 2014 at 3:17 pm

    Who is this pitcher?

    “Hi, my name is (_____________________) and over the length of the 3 year contract I signed, I earned $15.7 million per win, and a bit over sixty thousand per pitch thrown. Hey, don’t blame me, the dumb ass GM offered my agent the money and of course, I took it.”

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 15, 2014 at 3:28 pm


      • blade3colorado said, on January 15, 2014 at 3:52 pm

        Schmidt Dirt. πŸ˜‰

  23. twinfan1 said, on January 15, 2014 at 3:41 pm

    Scroll down to see videos of some of the kids in the Baseball Prospectus Top Ten SF prospects.


  24. twinfan1 said, on January 15, 2014 at 4:22 pm

    There couldn’t be worse news as to Panda- it’s said that he’s in the BEST SHAPE OF HIS LIFE. We’re screwed.

    • snarkk said, on January 15, 2014 at 4:42 pm

      More important — what shape he’s in on April 1 and August 1…

      • twinfan1 said, on January 15, 2014 at 5:02 pm

        It was a joke. Translation of BEST SHAPE OF HIS LIFE: Aaron Rowand 2011.

      • snarkk said, on January 15, 2014 at 5:31 pm

        I never doubted the Gamer was in shape and worked at keeping in shape, he didn’t diss his teammates by being a slob with a big contract. He was just in shape and lousy…

      • twinfan1 said, on January 15, 2014 at 5:36 pm

        Well, you still don’t get it. I thought everyone knew the “BEST SHAPE OF HIS LIFE” joke.

  25. Bozo said, on January 15, 2014 at 4:43 pm

    A nice write up about Flan in the Merc, fuck the Hall, this is the shit.


  26. blade3colorado said, on January 15, 2014 at 7:48 pm

    Flav, this is one of the places (earlier this summer, I saw it mentioned as well), I saw the $300 million mentioned for Kershaw . . .


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