Bad Meets Worse
Last night didn’t surprise me at all. Coming off an emotional beat down, the team didn’t get to sleep until 5am Denver time. Their VMI number was terrible and they were facing a team that had the luxury of having been in Colorado acclimating for at least the previous series. Sprinkle some Voggy in there and you get an 11-3 drubbing…….
Today might not be much better. Chris Heston is going to get pummeled. And while De La Rosa is no Kershaw, he definitely knows how to pitch in Denver. Glimmer of hope: this is the 3rd straight left hander we’ve seen. Can we finally get to one of them today?
What am I missing? Why isn’t Petit starting today? Is he hurt? If he fails THEN you can bring in Heston or Huddy for mop up duty. But it seems to me that you go with the guy who doesn’t rely on his ball to sink for success. At least in Colorado.
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
By the time I got around to turning on the game it was already 9-3. I didn’t know about the sleep situation, that helps explain it a little. I wasn’t feeling too bad after the L.A. series because they were in every game. But now my glimmer of hope is starting to fade. Hopefully the gap can get down to 5 games or less by that last week for there to be a shot. But I doubt the rivercats will be able to gain much ground.
One guy that tweets a lot on cbs site during game had one that said “Giants position players have now scored 1 run in 3 straight games.” I get the acclimation thing and traveling, but the air doesn’t change and suck the life out of the ball when Giants get up to the plate. Sherps are 30-38 at home on the year so the yard hasn’t been that big an advantage to them.
One of the confounding things about this year team is how much problem less than .500 teams have given them, along with the streakiness. SF can look so good for 5-6 games, and then same group looks so bad.
Amazing play by Panik at Sacto, to adjust and barehand that ball while in the slide; also the pitcher having to make the scoop while covering.
In column by Shea in Chron today on #55, everyone is being way more optimistic. Groeschner is quoted ,”The doctor’s pretty confident tis is going to help him out and get back to ml pitching for next season.” Thoughts?
I hope Tim is able to have some semblance of his former greatness . . . That being said, put a fork in him – I think Tim is done. He’ll always be #1 to Giants fans, but I don’t see the Giants or anyone else for that matter, offering him a major league contract. He’ll be lucky to get a “make good” minor league deal.
Good point about “air doesn’t change and suck life out of the ball …”. I don’t get this whole VMI thing. I had to look it up at BaseballVMI.com. According to the diagram there high altitude/hot air (which would be Denver) keeps ball low … hmm, I’m confused … wouldnt that mean sinker balls would sink further? What am I missing here?
Btw, Willedav thanks for your Horace Silver BD mention yesterday. I responded to you @ 11:44am. I love those posts of yours!
This season seems to be going in the tank in a most inglorious manner. We’ve been so ridiculously inconsistent all year but now we are taking inconsistency to unprecedented levels. Last year we had the amazing early win streak, then came the long, long, down in flames stretch, then we settled into a relatively nice even pace. This year has been crazy … sputter, sputter, pop, pop, zoom vroooom, poop, poop, plop, stop, blast, putt, bang, putt ….pfffftttt …
I dunno … even Duffy is getting into the act … Does he lead the league in DPs yet? That would be ironic.
I think we need to mind our “P”s and get them back in the “Q” … Remember the time when we had the line up that went Pagan, Pence, Posey, Panda, Panik? … that was some weird magic there.
I heard one track off newly re-issued Silver at the Half Note, recorded live, the early band with Woody Shaw, longer versions of Que Pasa, etc.
Again, hope your gig went better than Giants game.
Vogs HR was Giants first in 6 games; like to see bats wake up and score in bunches rest of weekend.
I thought the same about Shea’s article. What a story that would be if Lincecum came back from this surgery and was good again.
My hope for Timmy to come back and pitch well is about as solid as my hope that our boys can make a run at the West in the last 28 games. Time to put up or shut up. They must win games and series from this point, and get some help re: the bums. I am tryint to remain optimistic, but it is tough. I am beginning to have visions of spring training ball in Scottsdale….
They were showing after the game last night how the Giants have more games at home and against sub .500 teams than the bums. Well, when you get your ass handed to you by a sub .500 team the way they did last night, that offers little in the way of solice.
Props to Mighty Running Utes for welcoming Harbs back to Pac 12 football. No idea how good Big Ten (or however many teams they have in it now) will be, but Utah wasn’t supposed to be anything special I don’t think.
I love college football and there’s a million games on at all hours Saturday so I can catch some after work, catch highlights and follow blog stuff online.
B-ball starts later this month so I’m usually busy Sundays which impacts watching pro ball. I don’t know enough to do fantasy league..
Couple days ago Chron put the typical Niners hit piece by Killion on the front page, and yesterday Ostler (usually equally as clueless) wrote a counter attack “what if” piece I liked. As in what if: Tomsula method of coaching works, Kaep learned some things from warner off season and is better with media, new play caller is more efficient at utilizing what he has, Davis decides he really wants to play again, Bowman and others become new team leaders, yada yada. You can’t tell until they get on the field and games count.
Gigs were fantastic this week, thanks for asking … young alto player from NYC preparing to do his doctorate at Miami is visiting family here and sat in with us on reg Wed gig … Kid can play! Wow, it was fun.
Woody’s son is an acquaintance of mine … Didn’t know him real well but he used to come fairly regularly into the studio I worked at in NYC.
Say Willedav .. Been meaning to ask you … Do you know of pianist Mike Wofford or flutist Holly Hoffman? Mike was with Ella up until her passing and also was with Sassy for some years. Holly worked with Ray Brown. Both are on my CD “Sucker Punch Requiem” which is an homage to the painter Jean Michel Basquiat. Also on the CD is trombonist George Lewis and altoitst Oliver Lake among others. Do you know of any of these players? … Just curious as to how wide a swath your listening tastes cut.
Hey Lisle, sorry, I finally called it a night not long before you responded. I had stayed up to watch the end of Show Me A Hero on HBO, and then checked in here one last time. I guess you eventually found out about the debacle that was last night’s game.
Thanks! Oh yeah … I sure did find out eventually … Wish I had’nt … What a mess!
BBRef’s homepage lists the top twelve pitchers from the previous day, ranked by “Gamescore.” Yesterday, because there were only six games played, the top twelve list starts with Rusin (GS 67, pretty good–bumped up by the CG) and ends with Vogey (8–of course, he didn’t get credit for his HR). If that don’t break your heart you ain’t got one.
Coors Field is just an absurd place to play major league baseball. Remember Lincecum a few years back rejecting a too-light new baseball at Coors with a “fuck that” for the camera? Said a lot about the place. Actually said a lot about Lincecum, as well. So much originiality and intensity and talent and purpose packed into that guy, along with a genuinie humility that you don’t see in stars very often. Best to him as he heals.
Four days into it, this has not been the “September to Remember” I had envisioned….
This one is starting to hurt …uh?
We will probably get salt rubbed into our wounds by the Giants quickly getting eliminated over the next couple of weeks and then catching fire for the remaining meaningless games … to give us hope for next year …
I am not throwing in the towel yet, Lisle. But if they lay a turd like they did last night…well…
http://tinyurl.com/oh9fqvn
And what a ‘GIANT’ stinking foul turd it was .. OMG!!! When I got home from the gig … well … I just about shit myself … I had very poor KNBR reception on the car radio for some reason (it’s fresNO – if shit can happen, it does …frequently) and local ESPN station had already switched subjects … So I did not know the outcome until I fired up my iPad and checked the Flap & my AtBat app … then I went into a full on panic attack … I even reached out to MacDog just after midnight because I saw he posted around that time.
I don’t know about your towel but mine has a pretty thick layer of crust excrement from the all the wiping up of the this past month.
For me, I cannot shake the memories of those fucking games Casilla blew in Texas and Atl … That was the turning point … We should have at least three or four more in the ‘W’ column … more if we had done what we should have in at least one or two of those games against the Cards, Pirates, Cubs … too many wasted efforts in August … for whatever reason they occurred. We should be tied with the bums for first now.
My guess is that this recovery is going to take a long time for Lincecum. If he were smart, he should announce he is going to take a full year off and see of he can really strengthen his core. I just don’t see him returning to all-star form as a starter. Hopefully for him he can extend his career in the AL and maybe be a #3 or #4 starter.
In the immortal words of Draymond Green:
If “if’s” were fifths, we’d all be drunk.
I hope Timmy does come back (with Seattle), but I just have a hard time believing it. His motion was so violent and contorted that I don’t know if he’ll ever get the flexibility back.
.
To all, just remember, on August 25th, 2010, we were 6.5 game back . . .
All we need is a strong push and a bit (ok, 2 bits) of luck.
Chuck, have you noticed too – or is it just me – we cannot seem to get any breaks and it’s been going on for the longest fuckin time ??? … we are “shit out of” when it comes to “Luck” … so many, one pitch, one dinger, one call, occurrences … It really is hard to fathom.
Usually, lucky bounces, hits, pitches, slides, whatever come and go for everybody, individually and collectively … sometimes in bunches, sometimes spread out over awhile … but this … This … THIS fuckin bullshit has been a sustained stream of putrid diarrheal puke that has reached unprecedented temporal proportions!! I ask you how many … HOW FUCKIN MANY injuries have we accumulated by way of hit batsmen? … and that is only one example. What THE HELL did Bochy do last Friday 13th? … step on every crack on every sidewalk in San Francisco on his way to slicing up a black cat with shards of broken mirrors while positioned under a ladder???
Gas can of the night on Rotogrinders is Heston . . . OH OH! 😦
https://rotogrinders.com/articles/mlb-on-the-bump-friday-september-4th-806316
I’ll be shocked if a sinker baller pitching at altitude, already on the skids for over a month like Heston, doesn’t get smoked tonight…
Somehow, with Crawdaddy back and Perez in the lineup and no triple-ought buck, the array vs De La Rosa doesn’t look too shabby. If they can get to him in the first three innings and pile on the conga line, we could see the first major offensive outburst in weeks. Can’t guarantee a winner but it would not surprise me if 20 or more runs rack up on the scoreboard tonight ~ both teams included in that tally.
What’s a “conga line” … .?
It’s when a series of batters get on base and score a few or several runs. Rarely is it interrupted by something drastic like a home run ~ partial exception there being a salami added to an earlier run or two comprised of singles, doubles and walks basically.
Sorry C.C. … That was my feeble attempt at sarcasm .. I actually do know the meaning of the ‘conga line’ reference here at The Flap.
So now Dave Fleming is doing college football for ESPN (Baylor-SMU). Can’t imagine he will be back next year. Miller and Kuiper can’t be happy having to do play by play for an entire game and switching back and forth between TV and radio. No loss as far as I am concerned.
I still don’t get why he would have a plush job like the one he’s got with the Giants and go do so many other things. Maybe he doesn’t like being home. Maybe he’s making a shitload more money with ESPN. Who knows. It costs a lot to live here.
I can’t imagine that he makes anywhere close to what K&K and Miller make. I mean it’s his first professional gig and he will always be the fourth wheel behind the big three. I would think a full time gig with ESPN/ABC would top what Baer and company would dish out as the number four voice.
that makes sense.
Miller, the last few years after his ESPN gig ended, has taken an “assignment” for 3-4 games here and there during the year, unlike when he was younger. Kruk and Kuip, too. Flemm actually IS on assignment, building an announcing resume outside of the Giants booth. I wouldn’t cry if he left for some other gig…
Really? I kinda like Fleming … he seems like the only guy that risks calling BS … at least compared to the rest of them. IMHO
Miller is not afraid to criticize individual players and will tell it like it is. Kruk and Kuip on the other hand (especially Krukow) are a different story. I am still in shock at what Kruk said about Adrianza this week. That was so out of character for him, yet he was so right.
K/K have no problem ragging on the young guys. I hear it out here on their KNBR shows nearly every day…..
I listen a lot to them and they always seem to be cloyingly non comical to criticizing the team in any productive way. Miller can br tough sometime in a round about way.
Fuckin. Auto correct .. Non committal is what I meant … Comical … fuck off!
I was just about to wonder if Heston’s pitches would sink in this non sinking altitude. Guess I can go back to being sad about the loss of a season for my G-men. Love you timmeh!
They might as well walk those two guys the rest of the weekend.
Speaking of broadcasters, the Red Sox’s network, NESN, which has the worst color analyst in baseball, Jerry Remy, just fired the play by play guy. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The guy will finish out the season, and although he’ll probably miss broadcasting the Red Sox, he’ll probably be thrilled to get away from Remy.
Remy’s the typical bad analyst, who does nothing except repeat what’s on the instant replay. And does it with his awful Archie Bunker accent.
“Da shat-stap dere, he trows the bah pass da catchuh, and” etc. etc. etc. It’s unlistenable.
just absurd to send Heston out there tonight. Auto-gas can, this was obvious.
Geez a quick repeat of last night,.
Back to Back Bombs, and the Sherpas are off at running.
Thank Christ football started this weekend.
Gyros on life support, need a win tonite to avoid pulling the plug…
Pagan looked safe to me
If the giants are on the sidelines, I’m backing the Cubs and Pirates in that order, based on length of fan suffering and being a NL guy…
“Fan” really is a contraction of “fanatic,” I think. I remember reading something by Yeats on the point. FANatic heart, something like that. I’m presently wondering why my fan loyalty is any more rational than the Rowan County Clerk’s belief that she doesn’t have to follow the law just because she’s a government official who swore to uphold the law before she took her position. The tea party people who protested Obama Care by holding signs demanding that the government keep its hands off of their Medicare also come to mind. Yet here I am, rooting for a comeback and a surge down the stretch from a team that has tanked on the road in the last few weeks, when it mattered. I’m completely irrational. There isn’t a fucking chance the Giants make the post season now, and yet by fucking god there sure as shit is. Panik, Pence, Hudson will be back (etc.). I’ll throw the towel in when they’re eliminated, but I’ll use it to dry the tears in the meantime.
Great post, xoot. My sentiments exactly.
Beautiful Xoot … I’m truly touched by the sentiment.
I suppose it’s time to prepare ourselves for Heston’s 7th inning ‘one pitch’ ” mistake … Who will it be too? I got Morneau .. a welcome back dinger!
Hey you no what if were going down, we’re going down drilling the opposition. I’m sick and tired of are guys getting hit!!
Fucking “MAN UP PITCHING STAFF”!!!
Like that dude in the in the tower in Top Gun, on Mavericks fly bys spilling his coffee all over him,
“I WANT BUTTS”!!
Dunno about contract status, but I’d love to have Morneau end his career in Giants uni. Just a professional hitter. If you did trade Belt, Posey/Morneau would be great platoon at 1b.
Willedav … Did you see my 9:21 question to you?
9:21am
yes. I’m not very familiar with Lake other than some of his work with the World sax guys. I had a cd by Hamiet Bluiett that I really enjoyed. Notice Olive Lake did a couple tributes to Eric Dolphy, whose music I enjoy but like others sometimes sounds better in ensembles such as with Coltrane Mingus or Olive Nelson.
Lake;s tunes are quite inventive melodically. Must have been great fun to play with someone like that. \
Pianist and others you mentioned I’m not familiar with.
Flems does fair amount of college b-ball in off season, and he’s not bad.
Maybe he sees other sports as a way to get ahead and enjoys doing them.
I’ve always assumed that he wants to be the next Al Michaels, so he’s developing his resume.
Seriously, I don’t know that I can handle another one run loss. Score some fucking runs, already.
Heston was on the griddle tonight and he did not fry. Two runs to the #1 and #2 HR sluggers in the NL over five innings in the Box of Rox rates as a quality start. Tonight’s start was a major test for Heston. He passed with something between a strong B- and a flat-out B. Looks as if he may be the #4 starter next year should SF do what everyone expects and get a #2 to fit between Bumgarner and Leake (if he signs). That would make veteran Jake the #5.
Cain is the 3? Pretty optimistic
In Stix’s scenario, Cain (or insert name here) would be four. Bum #1, acquired pitcher #2, Leake #3….
I think he excluded Cain, Chuck…
Heston was 4. Bummie, Leake, Cain, Heston, Peavy?
My head hurts . . .
Agree Loo. And no way, at this point, do I slot Cain ANYWHERE in the rotation next year. IMO, he needs to earn that slot. And I sure as fuck am not holding my breath in that regards.
He said Heston would be #4. He didn’t mention Cain.
Heaton was money. The guys swinging the bats are the ones not carrying their weight on a regular basis.
Jesus. If we can’t hit here we can’t hit anywhere. Late to the party but haven’t missed much
Those big ice creams look pretty rockin.’
Alright screw it,
Buster is creaming one out to tie this game up, that’s my prediction and I’m sticking to it!
Then again a weak ass grounder to 1st Crap…
snarkk – you still ready to sign Byrd next year? Dilude n is a pure hacker….
Compared to Hologram?
Crawfish?
20 come on.
Aaaaaaand, the Pads are leading. 7 losses in a row isn’t the direction to go.
Start setting the Tee Times…
Byrd is like 2 for his last 35. Rescind what I said last week about him being a keeper.
Whoops. 7 for his last 35 . . . My bad (although I still don’t want him out there next year). 🙂
Blade,
So without Byrd, who atleast has some pop occasionally, are we back to the usual suspects, a broken down Pagan, a Hop-Sing cook, a 4th OF Blanco, and a once ironman Pence?
As much as we’re gonna need some stud #2 starter and another 4-5 guy, have to get more power somewhere for the OF, and Mac Williamson doubt will be that guy for now..
AK, I should have been more clear – I don’t want him starting next season. I could roll with him on the bench.
Two straight losses to the Rockies, a combined 4 runs at Coors, that’s hard to do.
dammit
The Giants’ un-magic number is now 22, I think.
House of horrors. I hate Denver.
Fork. Stuck. Done? I really really wanted a fun September. All this talk about team chemistry, which I do believe in, has a dark side too. As Walter White said, “Chemistry is about…. transformation!” When the chemical bonds are positively forming, they look unbeatable. When the bonds break down, it all falls apart. The team was poised for a dramatic September, but it decided to break bad instead. Anything is still possible… but… well… gulp…
Well, I was shocked that Heston didn’t get tattooed tonite. He didn’t last long, but he made a comeback in terms of looking like a rotation player. I’m on the edge of calling this season done. It sure looks done. 7 straight losses is nasty during crunch time. Even given this fairly paltry an beat up lineup, you’d think accidentally the Giants would win one. Interesting that local radio has gotten a little hard on the Giants. The KNBR guys and callers are starting to question Sabean and Evans on the failure of the rotation, and lack of bench, particularly the disaster of 000…
I’d still consider Byrd signing for next year. Who else has some pop that is in the sights right now?…
Tom, re: your 8:58… in other words, KNBR has picked up their script from the Flap, it sounds like… 🙂
Yeah, and I haven’t even called in…
At this point, my mantra would normally be — bring up somebody, anybody. They already have. I guess they could bring up a couple of young starters now just to get their feet wet. Basically we’re near white flag territory…
According to FanGraphs, Sandoval’s WAR this season is at -1.6 and HanRam’s is at -1.8. That’s kind of amusing.
I wouldn’t bring Byrd back no matter what he does the rest of the way. I’d like to get a look at De Aza – maybe he’s better than Aoki who is starting to scare the shit out of me in LF.
Cespedes is a FA I believe.
Cespedes, now we’re talking. But, I believe the Giants do not consider a great outfield something that is necessary. Pence and two journeyman level OFers are good enough, is what it seems like. That works, as long as your pitching is dominant. When not, like now, then a below average outfield is a killer. I would pay whatever it takes to get Cespedes. But, it won’t happen…
Signing Leake is a huge priority. Our rotation fuckin’ sucks.
Yep.
A lot of us Flappers said stuff this season like “fuck that odd year crap, 4 in 6!”, and I was one of them. But now that this season has seemingly fallen apart, it actually feels a little comforting, not so tragic, etc. Worse to be a Nats fan, or Red Sox fan, or just about any other team not from St. Louis, KC, Pitts, Chicago, or, godbless’em, Houston at last. I’d be perfectly cool with 4 in 7… actually, my 2 lucky numbers. 🙂
This was our 3rd 7 game losing streak . . . Most in baseball this season.
Yeah, Steve, that’s sort of what I was referring to / implying in my 8:52… when they click, they click and look unbeatable. Then when they suck, they really suck. Very streaky. Yeah yeah yeah, it all averages out in the end, but if they didn’t suck so bad at times like this, then the “averaged out” results would look a helluva lot better….
Well, in the world of sports, in Afghanistan, it should soon be the start of buzkashi season, the sport where guys on horseback play polo with a headless goat carcass.
With the carcass? Has anyone suggested they use the head? It would seem to roll a lot better and dollars to donuts, the scoring would be higher.
Good point. But it’s a nation where a high percentage of the men are high on opiates, so maybe that explains it.
Sounds like the right sport for Adrianza…
Weel, yeah, if it has no head, 000 would try to tag it’s ass, and the neck would slide in safe on the bag…
I was so curious about this, I looked it up. This is their national game . . . umm, seriously. Also, it’s been played since the 10th century. This guy is holding the “ball.”
It’s under-inflated! A new Deflate-gate!
lulz!
The only game in the world when after the game is over, you BBQ the ball…
Around 1966, we played street hockey using a dead rat that some kid burned to death as a puck…
How did Norman Rockwell miss that? 🙂
LULZ! Zumie you’re killing me lately!
Ahh, we tried that once. Got lucky the burning rat ran into a field rather than under the house.
I wonder what Cespedes would cost…5/110?
I’d pay it in a NY second…
Seems like he’s exactly what we need…
I watched Cespedes when he was with Oakland and thought he was a tremendous talent completely mishandled by the asswipes who run the a’s. The Metropolitans would be insane not to build a home for him now that they have him in town, but if they don’t he would be great in SF. He’d have to work hard to earn a CF spot; he could cover LF easily. If Pence ever needed an off day, Yoenis could throw strikes from the RF corner to any base. And he could hit a helluva a lot of HRs over the LF wall. On the down side, he apparently chain smokes like the stacks at a Cuban rum distillery. Playing games in Denver might be a challenge for him.
Yikes, I went to a goat restaurant here the other night. Very gamey. But obviously not as “gamey” as in Afghan….
Building a team from the middle out is often a good strategy. Strong up the middle at catcher, SS, 2B, and CF, and you’ve got the core of a strong team. This was one big problem this season: Pagan (and whoever played CF in his absence) was a negative, and while we all love Craw and Panik at the keystone, losing them to injuries at this critical juncture just killed us. Posey has had a fine season but looks extremely tired. Hence, oops, not so strong up the middle anymore. Just bad luck, huh….
Plus the bad year from Affeldt who’s a goner – up and down year for Casilla and the mostly crap rotation.
Kind of amazing they stayed in it at all.
As a parting gesture, the Giants should give Affeldt a year’s supply of frozen hamburger…
Bottom Line: It’s Lisle’s fault.
Yep, Loo, a lot of reasons for the big fade at this time. It all just caught up to the team. Staying in it with all of those problems is what made this team this season so entertaining and fun. Could still be an entertaining September, but actually winning would certainly help….
A Dodgers/Mets playoff series would be an ’88 rematch. That year worked out rather well for the Dodgers. It’s been a journey through the wilderness since then for the Dodgers.
Mets beat LA in 2006 NLDS…
Wow- I remember absolutely nothing of that.
I remember it like yesterday. Bud Harrelson had a fight with Steve Garvey at 2nd base…
I’m pushing for the Cubs, then Bucs. But, watch out for Mets. They’ve got starters, and enough hitting now. Unless those young arms wilt under pressure. Could be a 2010 redux of the Giants with a super strong rotation dominating the playoffs…
A fruitless journey that continues I hope. Met, Pirates or especially the Cubbies would work for me.
I’ve had a lot of good friends from Pittsburgh in my life, not sure why, but there it is. Good people, good fans, nice city. I’ll root for the Bucs this time around, why not. Cubbies are probably not quite ripe yet, give ’em another year or two. Two, actually, because next year is 2016 and you know what that means… 🙂
Giants don’t strike out nearly as much when the regulars are in. Exhibit 1 – Tomlinson has whiffed at a fairly high rate (23.5 K%) for a slap hitter with minimal power (albeit, last night he didn’t whiff), so once his .415 BABIP regresses to a more sustainable level, his high batting average could take a hefty plunge. That said, Tomlinson has made up for his low-contact ways by walking in 9.9 percent of his plate appearances. I still would like Panik in there.
I wondered how things would play out in crowded OF, but here’s this from Bochy:
“We’re going to go with the hot bat, match ups, how they’ve previously done against the pitcher.”
Hot bat? Does that mean Vogs is in LF?
No problem with the statement, except the last part, “. . . how they’ve previously done against the pitcher.” Anyone (especially DFS participants) who knows anything about baseball, knows that batter versus pitcher (BvP) is one of the worst statistics to use. Read this and you will understand why:
http://socalledfantasyexperts.com/batter-vs-pitcher-stats-do-they-have-value/