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Hall of Lame

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on January 7, 2016

If you change your HOF vote, doesn’t that make you kinda vindictive? Or uninformed? Or worse, a pussy?

I really don’t care, I stopped worrying about who was/wasn’t getting into the HOF a long time ago. Plus, I’ve never been there so it’s an *out of sight/out of mind” thing.

If you have a vote and you do the research then you should either know or not know on a guy the first time you vote/don’t vote for him. There is no new information coming out. They haven’t put up a stat in AT LEAST 5 years.

And now I’m reading about some softening from the voters regarding the steroid guys. Although, I’m not so sure about that since their % only seems to have gone up because of the sweep the BBWAA did to get rid of the guys who haven’t been voting.

Still, there are writers saying they’ve changed their minds. And while changing your mind is a right and as human as it gets, I don’t see what’s changed other than the calendar.



73 Responses

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  1. Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 7:57 am

    nice first step and CA and Illinois are only making NY look more and more foolish

    • snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 12:21 pm

      Note in the details of the bill discussion that there will be a licensing fee for these fantasy sports outfits. As predicted …

  2. xoot said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:04 am

    I really think the BWAHAHA turncoats, craven as they are, have developed some perspective. In the end, if Bonds and Clemens are permanently black balled the petty hypocritical voters themselves will be seen as the villains. I think your take, Hall of Lame, is right. And I think more fans, serious and casual alike, will grow to agree as time moves on. So the writers will adjust. Easy enough to do for those without spines.

  3. zumiee said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:24 am

    They do a crafty thing by picking a day in the middle of the cold winter to add people to the Hall. It can dominate baseball news for a few days.
    There was a sportswriter on the MLB Network the other day that went through a list of circumstantial evidence that Piazza used steroids.
    In one of Canseco’s books, Canseco said that about 80% of the players were using PEDs during the height of the PED era. So many of Canseco’s accusations have turned out to be true, that he even titled one of his books “Vindicated.” Canseco was bitter because he got black-balled from baseball when he had 495 career HRs. He believes that MLB didn’t want him to get to 500 HRs, and they wanted him never to have a chance to get to the Hall of Fame. Probably some truth to that. Clearly Bonds was black-balled out of baseball. He could have helped an AL team for a few years as a DH.

  4. Irish Kevin said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:27 am

    have any of you been to the Hall?

    • zumiee said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:37 am

      I haven’t yet. I would like to go someday, because, first and foremost, it’s an awesome baseball museum. And it’s a hugely important resource for authors writing baseball history books and biographies. Its archive of rare photos, alone, is incredible.

    • xoot said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:16 am

      I went when I was an ten year old LL player. I remember the small ballpark nearby more clearly than the hall itself.

    • chipower9 said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:17 am

      I have not, but do want to at some point.

  5. zumiee said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:32 am

    In Baggs’ latest book, one of the things that he mentions, that I had forgotten, is that Selig refused to be at Bonds’ games to see him break the career HR record in person. That’s pretty lame, considering how Selig basically turned a blind eye to PED use for so many years in order to make baseball more popular, and bring more money into the sport. And, as others have mentioned, the sportswriters aren’t guiltless in that regard, either.

  6. Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:50 am

    Piazza absolutely used steroids. He was an admitted Andro user and we now know that was a supplement to use in conjunction with steroids to act as a *mask*. Like a guy who gets fouled and the dude with 1 foul (Andro) raises his hand quickly so his teammate with 4 (Stanozolol) won’t get another one. And that is a spot on analogy…….

    • willedav said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:07 am

      Shea had an interesting column on voting for Piazza, whom he suspects (and Bonds) and how he has changed his mind on things. I can see that and he makes the same point Snarkk has made here over and over—who really knows who did what and when in an effort to gain an edge?

      His issue is with Sosa and McGwire and how they weren’t HOF material beforehand, as opposed to what Bonds and Clemens accomplished earlier in their careers.

  7. willedav said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:59 am

    Don’t know where I read it, but apparently there is quite a lot of Pete Rose stuff in the Hall, just not his plaque.

    • Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:04 am

      I’ve written that here, so you might have heard it here. And it’s true. Pete’s already in the Hall. So is Bonds. It’s absurd that they profit from their memorabilia but won’t let their bust in there.

    • zumiee said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:04 am

      Yeah, and a lot of Bonds stuff, too. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they have something from Joe Jackson, too. It’s a strange situation.

  8. unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:11 am

    Yeah, the fact that Piazza’s in totally smacks of hypocritism (ok, maybe it ain’t a word, but I’m starting it).

  9. willedav said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:20 am

    Watched end of Cal game last night as they lost first league road game to Oregon.
    Sharpshooter Matthews went 0-4 on 3s and rest of team 0-8.
    Senior point Wallace missed 3 of 4 FTs in last couple minutes.

    Jaylen Brown, tho, dominated. No way this guy is sticking around.

    Warriors next game at. Portland, where they run into another Cal kid who left early and is staring to blossom, Alan Crabbe out of LA powerhouse Price HS.

    • unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:27 am

      Yeah, my son and I watched that game last night. Too bad Cal couldn’t hit an outside shot to save their lives. Side note, my son’s roommate at Monterey is friends with Ivan Rabb, Cal’s freshman forward. Went to O’Dowd. . .

  10. unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:24 am

    Willie, I’m totally down with that. Bonds and Clemens were 1st ballot guys by the time they started using. Much as I dislike Clemens, he should be in as well as Bonds. Sosa and McGwire (and Canseco for that matter) weren’t hall-worthy IMO.

    Whether Bonds was just sick and tired of seeing shitty players (e.g. Brady Anderson) suddenly hitting 50+ bombs and getting away with it, or Clemens trying to return from injury, the reasons for players using were varied and irrelevant. When Ken Caminiti talked steroids back in 2002 he said it was about 50% players using. Canseco said 80% 3 years later. Either way, that’s a lot of players that aren’t on the user radar.

    If the BBWHOFWHOREs don’t get this, then it’s all about a popularity contest for the next 20 years.

  11. wilcojoe said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:27 am

    Bagwell might have been the biggest user of the bunch. Take a look at how big he got after playing with Caminti and then look at how small he got when he quit playing. That dude is a lock for next year ( based on how close he came this year) and is probably the biggest name to never get caught.

    • willedav said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:42 am

      Must be the Mike Scott affect. Craig could never get umps to bust him for whatever was going on with baseball..
      Wasn’t Joe Niekro the guy they found with sandpaper on him?

    • Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:51 am

      great point.

  12. zumiee said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:54 am

    I finished the first season of “Mr. Robot.” There are some major plot twists in the last few episodes. I also finished the second season of “Manhattan,” and liked it a lot.
    Here’s some “Saul” news I saw online:
    ‘Better Call Saul Season 2’ will be streaming on Netflix starting February 16 this year, right after it starts premiering in AMC. When it comes to ‘Better Call Saul Season 1’, Netflix will stream new episode per week.
    The upcoming ‘Better Call Saul Season 2’ will have a total of only 10 episodes-same as the first season. However, this number is still 3 short of what AMC asked.
    However, according to Peter Gould (co-creator of ‘Better Call Saul’) the upcoming ‘Better Call Saul Season 2’ will compose of “10 big, big episodes”.
    Both Bob Odenkirk (Saul Goodman) and Jonathan Banks (Mike Ehrmantraut) are going to reprise their roles in ‘Better Call Saul Season 2’ will be joined by other actors like; Michael McKean (Chuck McGill) and Rhea Seehorn (Kim Wexler).
    ‘Better Call Saul’ was nominated for 6 Primetime Emmy Awards including Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series (Bob Odenkirk) and Outstanding Drama Series. However the show has failed to win any category.

  13. chipower9 said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:13 am

    Good thread Flav. Sure, nothing has changed in regards to the actual stats put up by those players who are eligible and on the ballot, but for me, my take on different topics has changed with time, so I can see that being the case for the writers. I do think that feelings have, and will continue to change in regards to the writers’ view of the steroid era.

    I am not a big Ray Ratto fan, but the other day he was discussing the vote, and he said one thing that I really agree with. His comment was that if you cannot write the history of baseball without mentioning a player, then that player should be in the hall. I absolutely agree.

    The BBHOF is a fucking museum. It is there (or should be, IMO) to chronicle the history of the game as it applies to the top players. The roid era was a part of the history of baseball. Players have tried to gain an edge since the game was incepted (spit-balls, corked bats, amphetamines, and of late, steroids). IMO, this is all a part of the history of the game, and should have little or no impact on who is enshrined, or not.

    I believe Bonds and Clements will get in eventually. Bonds should have been a no-brainer first ballot inductee.

  14. Macdog said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:17 am

    One of the sillier parts of the process is how certain writers won’t vote for a certain player the first time around because said player isn’t deemed worthy enough to get into the HOF in the first year of eligibility, but then he’s somehow good enough to go in the second or even third time he’s eligible. Huh? As Flav said, the numbers are there permanently, if a player’s worthy enough at the start, then vote him in. One of these years they’ll probably vote in somebody posthumously, heck, it already happened with Ron Santo.

  15. unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:17 am

    ‘Saul’ is a great show. Bob Odenkirk is outstanding I it as he was in Breaking Bad. And Fargo for that matter.

    Watching the ‘I’m Chris Farley’ retrospective a month ago, I had no idea they worked together in improv comedy in Chicago back in the day. If you haven’t seen It, it’s very good if not cautionary as hell. Odenkirks’s bitterness and frustration at the death of Chris Farley is palpable. As is Adam Sandler’s. David Spade couldn’t talk about it for a year. As with stuff like this, it’s funny to reminisce but very sad in the end.

  16. unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:23 am

    Yeah like the 100% thing. Who gives a fuck? If Mays doesn’t get in on every ballot then the voting is rigged. Ron Santo was a tragedy. Rose will suffer the same fate. For different reasons. I don’t give a flying fuck about Pete though.

    Shit, why not Lefty O’Doul? He did much to promote the game around the world as anyone. Plus he was a damn good player.

    Speaking of rigged voting, Kobe Bryant is leading the vote for the All Star game. I hope he begs out as he s so not worthy.

    • Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:31 am

      Kobe starting in the AS game is like the ONLY thing I support in this dumb ass farewell tour. His idiot GM says this entire season is all about saying goodbye to Kobe. WTF???? I’m sure the season tix holders enjoyed hearing that the GM took a year off from putting a competitive team together to say a 1 year goodbye to Kobe. lol. But letting him start the AS game? I’d be down with that. Pull him after a couple of minutes and 6 or 7 jacked up airballs……..

    • unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:55 am

      Let him throw up the tip-off then. Can’t miss that.

      I hope Kobe gets his ass booed relentlessly come Jan 14th.

      A fitting exit from the coliseum arena.

  17. snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 12:27 pm

    The 100% thing is meaningless. The 3 that left Griffey off May have concluded he’s in anyway without my vote, I need a voting slot to vote for a guy I think is close but might not make it. The voting limit if just 10 slots is stupid, and designed to keep the entering classes low. Baggs has repeatedly said it’s a messed up process..

  18. snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 12:34 pm

    I heard on radio that the number of votes for Bonds and Clemens actually fell from last year. The percentage went up because the HOF kicked a bunch of voters out of the process who were basically inactive for years. I’m trying to imagine the NFL hall if the voters for it considered suspicion of PEDS use to be a disqualifier — there’d be empty classes for the last two decades…

  19. Irish Kevin said, on January 7, 2016 at 12:44 pm

    If you could get sports writers to just look and a players numbers and abilities then yes Bonds and Clemens would get in on the first ballot. But because sports writer interact with players through out the players career the personal factor comes into play, don’t know much about Clemons attitude towards the press but BB had a terrible relationship with the press. I would love to know how Bonds treated the press in his younger pre steroid era. But the writers look at the way you treated them at the end. And let’s face it Bonds was not a great people people person, he did not even treat his team mates very well. So yes it is going to be a while for BB to get into the BBHoF

  20. snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 12:45 pm

    I’ve been to Cooperstown twice — as a kid and as an adult. If u love ball, the museum is well worth the visit. The private institution of the HOF and the voting though, has become a joke with this steroids business. Even Kruk has repeatedly dissed it. I don’t need a bunch of hypocritical writers who kept their mouths shut in the steroid era to tell me now which guys should be in there. And the attitude of a lot of the guys already in it — they are in the lifeboat pulling up the ladder — is just BS…

  21. snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 12:54 pm

    So, Piazza is a HOFer, and Bonds is not? That’s like Stallone having a best actor Oscar, but Peter O’Toole never got one. Both situations denigrate the value of the prize…

    • snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 1:02 pm

      Ok, so Sly only got nominated. Same idea… 🙂

  22. zumiee said, on January 7, 2016 at 1:53 pm

    “BB had a terrible relationship with the press.”

    In Baggs’ book he mentions that one of the things Bonds would do is often refuse to cooperate with the press, only bothering to say to them “get a real job.” And not said in a joking way. These writers are only human; that has to be irksome. BUT, they should still be professionals when it comes to voting, and not let personal vendettas enter into it. Or personal vendettas disguised as something else.

    • wilcojoe said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:41 pm

      Bonds was a true visionary. He saw the downfall of the print journalism industry long before everyone else. 😉

    • xoot said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:50 pm

      after the chronicle published the leaked Bonds GJ testimony transcripts Bonds treated Schulman like shit. Schulman writes about it occasionally. Schulman also strongly supports Bonds for the HOF.

  23. djloo27 said, on January 7, 2016 at 1:54 pm

    I was at the HOF in 1981. I found it kind of boring. Don’t know what I was expecting – it was a long time ago. What’s the big thrill about a famous bat and ball in a glass container? And plaques with awful likenesses of guys and some info that I already know. I think there’s a lot more going on in town now then there was back then. A friend of mind goes there and loads up his truck with cases of beer from some local brewery.

    • Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:50 pm

      Loo— ever been to Shady, NY? I looked it up on google maps. Looks very rural…….

      • djloo27 said, on January 7, 2016 at 4:44 pm

        Never heard of it, Flav. Seems like one or both of us belong there.
        Did you know there’s actually a Florida, NY here somewhere?

  24. chipower9 said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:45 pm

    Per John Heyman the Giants are nearing a deal with Denard Span…

    Thoughts from Flap Universe?

    • snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 6:04 pm


  25. chipower9 said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:47 pm

    Per Schulman – 3 year deal is done…

    • Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:49 pm

      that’s fine. Better than Will Venable. This should make Clown happy. I hope his hip is ok, physical isn’t going to be a slam dunk….

  26. Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:52 pm

    When Tim Duncan decided to hang ’em up you can bet he won’t fiddle around with this good bye tour nonsense that Kobe is doing. And you could easily argue that Duncan had a better career…….

    • unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 3:48 pm

      Much cleaner rap sheet anyway. Even before the rape I never liked Kobe. That just made it all the worse.

  27. dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 7, 2016 at 2:56 pm

    Denard Span #1 similarity score at Pagan. lulz

  28. gianthead said, on January 7, 2016 at 3:08 pm

    Span for $30 mill? A deal I can love…maybe he got an opt out after a year. Good enough for me.

    Zum, I am looking forward to season two of Saul and loved Robot. How about the episode when he breaks the drug dealer out???? Maybe the most intense scene in tv history…

  29. sfsarge said, on January 7, 2016 at 3:21 pm

    This just in, Jeremy Affeldt announces his retirement…lulz? Poor attempt at humor, i dont know much about Span other than that he was supposedly really good before his injury and now, we’ll see. I have to say based only upon the hip injury, im nervous about this. We don’t need a Pagan redux. But, if he does go down maybe we can see what one of the kids can do. I do like the price and the fact that they didnt have to give up anything to get him.

  30. dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 7, 2016 at 3:26 pm

    In my minds Parra is a more expensive Blanco. Younger sure but probably would’ve been too expensive. Why duplicate what you’ve got at a higher salary rate? I like the Span signing. He’s a good add to the OF mix, doesn’t have extreme splits and the deal is reasonable in both duration and dollars

  31. unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 3:45 pm

    Beats Denorfia. He’s not quite the triples machine Fowler would be, but he does hit a lot of ’em. Not exactly a power guy, but that’s a good thing I suppose. Maybe he can hit a lot of cheapies down the line.

    Funny thing is, the ‘Similarity Score’ on baseball reference, the #1 similar guy is Angel Pagan.

    • unca_chuck said, on January 7, 2016 at 3:47 pm

      ahate it when I wrote something, and forget to post it for 35 minutess . . . .

      • dirtnrocksnomo said, on January 7, 2016 at 3:49 pm


  32. blade3colorado said, on January 7, 2016 at 4:11 pm

    Absolutely love this signing. As recently as 2014, Span was an All-Star-caliber player. Prior to his right side core injury, he was the catalyst of the Nats offense. We need him in the lineup. The dude doesn’t strike out (something like 10% I think) and he plays great defense and can steal you some bases (great success rate @ above 80%). In 2014, Span put up a .302/.355/.416 line with 39 doubles, eight triples, five home runs and 31 stolen bases in 147 games and 668 plate appearances over which he was worth +3.8 fWAR.

    Come on down Denard! 🙂

  33. Carstie Clausen said, on January 7, 2016 at 4:34 pm

    All spic and Span in the OF now, i guess. Outside of the injury worries and the fact that he is yet another LH bat, he seems like a good compromise choice. Liking the fact that he is a centerfielder, a leadoff hitter, a true threat on the basepaths and a contact hitter. Conga lines firing up and going strong usually require a leadoff hitter with a good OBP. Span does that. Then he starts dancing off first. In many cases that could cause the opposing starter to go into an immediate Panik. Like that too. Next thing the fielders better get off their Duffs or we’re gonna witness somebody Buster wide open in the 1st inning.

    Sources say Denard has slipped somewhat in his CF coverage. But he just about hasta be an improvement over Pagan in that role. So the outfield defense should be modestly improved. Infield may be the best in MLB. Pitching could be ditto that. Lineup now looms as the best in the NL if there are no major injuries or regressions.

    Isn’t 2016 an even year?

    • ewisco said, on January 7, 2016 at 5:55 pm

      flat loved the conga line description.

  34. djloo27 said, on January 7, 2016 at 4:42 pm

    I’m not thrilled. He’s obviously Pagan’s replacement next year and maybe even this year, but who is our everyday LF?

  35. Bozo said, on January 7, 2016 at 4:44 pm

    Span’s hip must be healthy, if so, that will equate to about a triple ever other AB at Pac Bell. The times I’ve seen him play I wanted the guy. The Nats not trying to get him back kind of bothers me and I thought he was going to do his showcase tomorrow. Whatever, with my guy Blanco, they can go with one of the kids or Byrd (preferred) for the bench and have a hell of a line-up (Pagan batting 7th and playing LF?).

    So does this mean Ehire is finally off the 40 man?

    • djloo27 said, on January 7, 2016 at 5:03 pm

      After the hot start, Byrd homered once in his final 128 PA last season.
      I think he’s fat and cooked. Maybe he was eaten on Thanksgiving.

      • Bozo said, on January 7, 2016 at 6:10 pm

        Thanksgiving Byrd? Burp.

        Hey where is the Nipper these days?

  36. djloo27 said, on January 7, 2016 at 4:51 pm

    I really want Jason Werth if the Nats sign Cespedes and agree to pay a good chunk of his remaining $40 million…

    • ewisco said, on January 7, 2016 at 5:56 pm

      i wouldn’t want werth if the nats paid for him. guy is a bum.

    • Macdog said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:39 pm

      Hey Loo, you’ve had a change of heart about Werth’s worth?

      djloo27 said, on August 15, 2015 at 9:48 pm
      Werth seems to have no interest in baseball. One of the worst contracts ever…

      djloo27 said, on August 15, 2015 at 9:51 pm
      Werth plays like he has Fibromyalgia…

      • Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:48 pm

        ha! Now THAT is a find. That’s something Loo woulda pulled off back in the day on someone else.

      • djloo27 said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:17 pm

        Great job there, Mac!

      • djloo27 said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:16 pm

        I am obviously a very sick person.

  37. Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 6:07 pm

    Span is like a younger, more muscular Kenny Lofton. We got Lofton when he was 35. If his hip is ok (and that’s still an *if* with me) then I really like the signing. Pagan and Blanco can play LF……

    • willedav said, on January 7, 2016 at 8:14 pm

      Someone has to hit 8th and it ain’t gonna be Crawford no more I don’t think.
      Nats fans I’ve seen on blogs seemed to love the guy.

      Lofton was a cool player too bad he bolted. Good b-ball player too at U of A…who I just watched make 13 point comeback only to lose on 3pt with 1.8 left by Bryce Alford of UCLA.

  38. Irish Kevin said, on January 7, 2016 at 6:33 pm

    I was listening the Rise Guys on ESPN radio, they were talking about the starting lineup, is Span going to lead off and if so where do you put Pagan! They were suggesting batting Pagan in the 8 hole. Which is where I would put him. At this point Crawford, Panik, and Duffy are better hitters than Pagan.

    • Flavor said, on January 7, 2016 at 7:02 pm

      I’m not that worried about Pagan. He’s not going to last, he’ll be hurt by middle of May and probably gone for the year…….

  39. Macdog said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:14 pm

    Catching up on the Span signing. I’m a little leery about bringing in a guy off hip surgery, but man, IF he’s healthy, this is a damn-good get. Speed, low Ks, top-notch D that bumps Pagan out of CF, what’s not to like? There’s little doubt that part of the Nats’ downfall last season was due to Span only playing 61 games.

  40. snarkk said, on January 7, 2016 at 9:43 pm

    Are we sure Baalke isn’t making this choice — he loves drafting and signing injured guys…

  41. pawliekokonuts said, on January 7, 2016 at 10:29 pm

    I guess the Span signing is okay. What I don’t get is this: did we really have a LF problem? I’m a Blanco guy. This is just backup if Angel goes down. Who knows; maybe Pagan has a great year. Span gives flexibility; good leadoff IF healthy.

    HOF? I’m with Loo. Kinda boring. Has been for years. I have never understood why there aren’t more videos and stuff like that. How would a 12yo know what Willie Mays looked like as a player?

    Florida, NY. Right near Warwick. Dennis Z’s backyard.

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