THE San Francisco Giants Blog

Bullpen Nightmare

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on October 12, 2016

Once you get past the maddening decision to pull Moore and dive into that pathetic excuse for a bullpen, it gets a little easier to tolerate the insanity that unfolded after that. Look, I wanted him to leave Moore in too.  But 120 pitches is a lot of pitches. Bochy might be the only manager in baseball to even CONSIDER leaving him in.

If you can’t hand your bullpen a 3 run lead in the 9th and still win the game you simply have no business being in the post season. None. What was the plan? Pitch our starters 9 innings every game? That’s just not realistic. Sure, he could have left Moore in last night and probably would have gotten the win. But then what? We still had a Game 5, an NLCS and a World Series to go. At some point you have to use your bullpen.

So in one way we got put out of our misery a little early and that’s better than a long, slow painful death. I think. I’ve never died before.

No, I’m not going to fault Bochy too much on this one. Yes, he looked like a doddering old man shuffling back and forth in that 9th inning. But the guys he brought in were paid to do a simple job and they didn’t come close to performing. Law looked scared as fuck out there. He threw one ball nearly over the batter’s head, another ball yanked left in the dirt. And then a hard hit base hit. Lopez? I mean, he’s there to do one thing and he couldn’t do it. I’m actually surprised Rizzo didn’t blast that swing and miss strike two deep into McCovey Cove. That was a straight up cookie he missed. Romo’s pitches looked worthless. He finally had to come in with a nothing-slider and it got belted. I wouldn’t have left him in either, lol. What was Bochy supposed to do? Use Casilla? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

At least that fucking lefty reliever got them to hit a ball on the ground. I don’t know what was going on with Crawford last night. It’s like he was channeling the ghost of Steve Sax or something.

Yes it was a disgusting way to lose. It reminded me of the Roger Craig fumble. Or more recently, the Warriors collapse against the Cavaliers. But there was really no where to go with this. Winning would have just delayed the inevitable. The bullpen is incompetent. This morning, they are ALL that fucking lefty reliever to me.

This is more on the front office than anyone else. They built a 200 million dollar team and a 10 cent bullpen. That’s indefensible.

Tough way to be forced into the off season but we were not winning a World Series with that ‘pen. It was never going to happen.

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143 Responses

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  1. sfsarge said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:10 am

    It was even worse to see it unfolding in person. On top of it all, I was sitting in a section filled with Cubs staffers and it sucked watching them celebrate.

    • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:14 am

      i can’t imagine paying money to watch that. You must have felt so deflated on the way to your car.

      • sfsarge said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:28 am

        Just numb. It was a somber ride home to be sure.

  2. Cardinal70 said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:30 am

    My condolences on the end of the season. After Monday’s stand I thought y’all might pull it off. Tough to deal with an Achilles heel, though.

    • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:32 am

      Agreed. If it was just one guy, you could avoid it. Like if it was just Casilla, just don’t use him. Easy. But when every single reliever is unreliable it’s pretty much Russian Roulette for Bochy when he goes to that joke bullpen.

  3. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:38 am

    the good news is that it’s not that hard to build a pen. If Evans pays attention to that part of the team this off season, he should be able to shore it up no problem. And it’s not like trying to coax hitters to come here. Pitchers want to pitch at AT&T. But they need to clean house. I don’t want a single member of that bullpen back. I don’t care how unrealistic that sounds, I don’t want one freaking one of them back.

    • Lurker John said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:18 am

      I said as much last night, outside of Law and Okert, I’m done with the lot of them. I’m assuming Blach will be used as a starter, but he’d be someone to look at for the pen, maybe in something like Javy’s role.

      Time for some fresh blood.

  4. blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:50 am

    While you guys were all sleeping and having nightmares about the game, I found time to reflect after reading about a half dozen articles on this game. Craig, spot on and I’m glad you said what has to be said – Bochy played it right. Moore was at 120 pitches and NO manager in MLB, with the possible exception of Bochy would have considered putting Moore out there for the 9th. Equally important, he had to weigh the 130 pitches Moore had thrown recently. I wasn’t able to find one article, except a Fans Graphs opinion piece, which placed any blame on Bochy. Even the Fan Graphs article didn’t really question him, as much as point out that he didn’t trust “the fucking lefty” reliever as much as he probably should have (interesting article – read it if you get a chance).

    Now, this is where many Flappers might part – in the 2nd half of the season, Botchy made some questionable decisions. I wont quibble with that. However, he had a team which had the BEST record in the first half of the season. He expected, as we did (or at least I did) that they would be way better than mediocre. Shit, this team didn’t even approach the piss poor level. In short, they were terrible. All the roles that were well oiled and running like a Swiss watch, suddenly began working like a cheap Hong Kong knock off Rolex. Perhaps the only exception, was Casilla – who sucked in the first half as well as the 2nd half. I think we blew more 9th inning leads in the last 30 days of the season than any team has in recent memory.

    Consequently, I can’t blame Bochy for the team’s poor play in most aspects of the game, especially the bullpen. James, help me here – I think I read where a manager is responsible for 2-3 wins during a season? Again, not going to look up the stat, but the point is that the players play the game and while Bochy does manage the games, show me where he didn’t do it by the book? Also, he doesn’t just manage the game, I think most of us can agree that he does much, much, more. For example, he relates to the players well and always has their back. Ensuring that a large roster is not back stabbing each other is just as important as game management in my opinion.

    Again, outstanding thread post Craig. I was thinking much the exact same thing during the day in Vietnam. It didn’t make me feel any better about the loss, but Bochy’s legacy remains untarnished in my opinion.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:06 am

      Great post, Blade. I am with you on this one, brother. Do not get me wrong…I was pissed with the way Bochy handled the 9th. And I do beg to differ and feel that Moore should have at least started the 9th, and been left in there for another 15 pitches or so (or until he put a runner on). The way he was pitching, there was a really good chance he wins that with a CG at under 135 pitches. Other than that…I am with you 100%, brother. Hope you are enjoying your stay in Viet Nam.

  5. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:11 am

    I beg to differ. Once the parade started I knew we were in trouble. It’s not like he hasn’t seen it before. Like 20 times the past month.

    They WEREN’T getting it done. 117 pitches is a good load but not onerous. Give him 1 guy or 2 if he’s quick.

    As I said, Lopez was unconscionable. He should have been as toxic as Casilla.

    Handing them a basrunner in that spot was idiotic. Yeah the pen sucks. BUT HE KNEW THAT.

    • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:18 am

      If you are saying he should never use the BP then the argument is over. That’s no argument

    • snarkk said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:48 am

      Totally agree with Chuck.
      Bochy KNEW the Pen was suspect. We all knew. Virtually all Flappers said keep Moore in the 9th until / unless somebody gets on. He hadn’t given up a hit since the 4th, he was dealing. This was like Matt Williams taking out Zimmerman in the 9th several years ago. You play one game at a time, one situation at a time. Moore’s next start could be next spring, saving his arm was baloney, given the gas can nature of this Pen. Even freakin’ Giants apologist Marty Lurie criticiized Bochy last night for not at least trying Moore in the 9th. Epic failure by Bochy given the facts and circumstances…

  6. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:22 am

    You can’t look to the future when the game is right there in front of you.

  7. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:26 am

    What I’m saying is Lopez should not have gotten anywhere near the game. Since he put Law in, he should have left him in there. The fucking pen parade hadn’t worked all of September. To try it in the 9th inning of an elimination game is ludicrous.

    • blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:38 am

      Chuck, Law was spent from the game before (he through 35 pitches I think). Law was put in because the situation called for it and perhaps, more important, Bochy trusted him. That Law failed was more due to fatigue than anything else. Regarding Bochy, as you pointed out correctly – he had few options with a bullpen that could have doubled as an Exxon oil rig. All 5 relievers he put in the game face planted. How is that his fault?

      • unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:55 am

        It’s his fault because he knew their track record. Give Moore 1 or 2 guys. Or the shot at the CG. We’re at the point of no return. If Moore wins, he gets 6-7 days rest. Law? Well, whatever. Strick should have come in then. There’s 100 ways to play that, and he did it wrong.

        It reminds me of Matty pulling Zimmerman with 2 outs in the 9th and blowing the game. It was an unnecessary move.

        As I’ve said, the biggest fuckup was Lopez. Everyone on God’s green Earth knew what was coming. 5 or 6 pitches 3″ off the ground and a walk.

        2 on and none out, and you’ve just breathed life into a dead club. They took it from there.

  8. willedav said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:44 am

    Disagree Chaz and Flav sums up how I feel too. Bochy had a plan, and my guess Gomer would have stayed in longer if he hadn’t given up the base hit but Law was all over the place. Lopez had one LH to get out and Rizzo had been terrible. Romo cannot locate his pitches properly vs. LH, left one in the wheelhouse and Zobrist whacked him. Smith was better than any of them and Giants had Heyward doubled up til Craw threw it away.
    Common theme was all of them except for Strick immediately got behind in the count. Strick was up 0-2 and then leaves one where guy can get just enough to put nail in the coffin.

    All involved came in to face a batter they could not get out. In the famous words of Carlos Santana, ” I ain’t got nobody/that I can depend on.”

  9. willedav said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:51 am

    If you think about it, this is the same thing that happened to Maddon the night before. He had the lead late in game and his set up guys in there who put men on base. Then he figures, all right F this BS I’m bringing in my best guy, whom the Giants proceeded to ruin.

    And realize these 2 mgrs. probably tops in the game. You put your best guys in position to help the team win, is all you can do.

    • unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:01 am

      So, you are saying Lopez is one of our best? Chapman is just a tad better than Lopez I’d say.

      This is my problem with the whole scenario. The walk to Rizzo was killer. Romo shouldn’t have been in there due to his workload the day before. He’s got 40 guys to go to and he puts in Lopez before Will fuck-me Smith?

  10. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:57 am

    Lopez is on the roster to do one thing. Get out the toughest lefty they have deep in the game. If you aren’t going to use him then he shouldn’t be on the roster. But if he’s not on the roster who do you want doing that job? Fucking Osich?
    I can mildly get behind the argument that he should have left Law in. But Law was ALL over the place. Kruk is saying this morning that it was bad luck cause Bryant beat the shift but he hit the shit out of that ball. In my opinion, Law was spent from the night before (as Blade said) and frankly so was Romo. Maybe Bochy was just praying they had something left but in Oct after a long season, counting on two relievers who threw 70 combined pitches the night before was a little “lotto-ticketish”. But again, who else do you use? Casilla?
    Moore was at 120, not 117. If it was a close out WS game maybe you let him keep going. But there was still 2 tiers of post season games left even if they win game 5. You can’t just breeze through the post season without using your bullpen.
    That’s just not realistic.

    • unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:46 am

      .

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:58 am

      See my 8:56 on Osich, below. I would have rather seen him be “the guy” against lefties, all day, and twice on Sunday. Fuck Lopez…fucker should have been watching from the fucking dugout. He should give back his fucking Willie Mac award.

  11. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:00 am

    Strickland? His fuck up was arguably the dumbest of the inning. You’ve got a hacker 0-2 and you throw him a fastball? He fucking feasts off that shit. Had Strickland come in to start the inning I have no doubt we would have seen the same outcome. Look, everyone in that bullpen sucks. You can’t set up a post season roster with no bullpen. it doesn’t work that way.

  12. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:03 am

    That’s on Posey, Flav. The next 3 pitches should have all been in the dirt. Why he called for a fastball away is one for the ages. Strickland’s slider was working.

  13. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:05 am

    You act like Lopez’s walk was some sort of mystery. As fucked up as Will Smith is, he’s better than Lopez. Osich as well. You said it yourself. If they are on the roster, use them. Instead he uses Romo and Law. Who had pitched a lot the day before. Even then, I’d have given Law more than one guy.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:56 am

      I keep telling you guys that Osich should be strongly considered to take Lopez’s slot as a lefty specialist.

      Against righties: SO/W – 1.00, BA – .274, OBP – .371, SLG – .528, OPS – .899
      Against lefties: SO/W – 3.50, BA – .186, OBP – .255, SLG – .307, OPS – .562

      Those are killer numbers against lefties. He is young, throws hard, and is lights fucking out against LHB. Case closed, IMO. Hey! SabeEvans and Bochy – you listen’?!

  14. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:07 am

    This is up there with Matty pulling Zim. An unnecessary move. And the conga line bullpen shit was a known disaster.

  15. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:12 am

    The point being, we were close to extending the series one more day. Bochy went with the book. And it bit him. Something he usually thinks his way around. Everyone bemoans pitch counts and how managers overthink it. Well, here you go. A perfect example. Moore was cruising. Low stress innings, and he wasn’t begging out of the game.

    With Cueto I like our chances in game 5. He can go 8 as well. Again, we were 3 outs away from at least one more game. We may never be here again. To save Moore for an undetermined future is the wrong way to play it.

    • djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:49 am

      I’m with you.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:52 am

      Abso-fucking-lutely…Moore should have started the 9th.

  16. Irish Kevin said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:19 am

    Good one Flav, after a restless sleep, I thought thank God that was not game 7 of the World Series, now that would have been painful!!

  17. Lurker John said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:32 am

    In their heyday, the Giants pen was excellent at coming in and getting ahead in the count and immediately putting the hitter on the defensive. The current iteration seems incapable of doing this and against a good fastball hitting team like the Cubs that’s a recipe for disaster. All year long this shit went on. It’s easy to forget that despite the great first half by the team, there was still issues with the bullpen, the team was just scoring more runs then.

    And, frankly, with as soft as Lopez has become, I would rather have Osich or Okert in there, if only because of their superior stuff. The result may have been the same, but Lopez is just done and he doesn’t trust his own stuff anymore. He’s been a great Giant but it’s time to move on. And by the same token, giving Law one more batter may have allowed him to settle down. He’s got strike out stuff and had pitched well in the series to this point. He pitched 2 innings the night before but he’s also 25 years old. Hindsight being 20/20, I would’ve left him in.

  18. willedav said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:34 am

    Reminds me of opening line in Anna Karenina.

    Giants off season will be interesting, and hopefully there are reassessments by FO that are more realistic as to what they have and what they need than what started 2016. But honestly, I can’t watch any more baseball.

  19. dirtnrocksnomo said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:35 am

    Even year tears are the worst.

  20. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:41 am

    Shitty hockey starting today. Kaep back in the starting QB spot. Everything going against me right now.

  21. sandog said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:41 am

    Go Indians! Go Nats!

    • Lurker John said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:52 am

      Yeah, I’m down with that.

  22. sandog said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:45 am

    I think Kaep is going to go off. His self-esteem has to be sky high. He went out on a limb with this anthem deal and has gone from pariah to trailblazer. I don’t agree with what he is doing, but I am big on personal freedom and anything that bucks trends, goes against the grain etc, so I find it all fascinating.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:50 am

      I do agree with “what” he is doing (the message), but I totally disagree with “how” he is choosing to convey his message. Can’t be much worse that the shit we have seen so far from the QBs…

    • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:52 am

      kaep is more concerned about his great social kneeling movement than doing the work it takes to be an elite qb. He’s going to suck, book it, although possibly not as bad as Gabby.

      • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:01 am

        …although probably not as bad as Gabby…and there you have it…the Niners are fucked, and MUST draft a QB in the off-season…

        At this point I am ready to see what Kaep can do, and I have NO expectations…

  23. djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:47 am

    Moore should have started the inning. If he had a no-hitter going and the same number of pitches, I’m sure he would have. I’ll leave it at that. I refuse to even think about everything that occurred afterwards…

    • unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:48 am

      Bingo. Bochy knew his pen was a mess.

      • djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:53 am

        It was the most stress-free 120 pitches I ever saw. it looked like he was playing catch in his backyard with his kid for 8 innings…

      • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:01 am

        He was envisioning all those snacks he would get after the game…

  24. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:48 am

    I’ll be mildly interested if Dusty gets past the Dogs. Other than that, Cleveland? Meh. Might as well go to the Canucks.

  25. chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:49 am

    Great post, and thanks for pulling a bit of sanity into it, Flav. I agree…the bullpen arms own this one more than Bochy (will have to agree to disagree with snarkk and others on that one…no way BOCHY owns this one wholly, IMO). And I understand what you are saying about pulling Moore, but I still think he should have started the 9th.

    After some thought on this vs. the game six loss in 2002, yeah, 2002 hurt more…I was just caught-up in a moment of absolute fucking anger last night and was not thinking rationally.

    Look, Bochy had some swings and misses down the stretch, but look at the pathetic group he had to work with in the BP. Agree….this is more on the front office for trying to nickel-and-dime a bullpen together.

    Bochy, IMO, is going nowhere. If you guys have forgot, he just signed an extension, and is signed through 2019. Sure, he could decide to move into a “consultants” role, but I don’t see it happening.

    Priority ONE is go out and get a fucking BONAFIDE closer. I mean a guy like Chapman, etc. No more scrap-heap bullshit here. Chapman, Jansen, and Melancon are all FAs…giddy the fuck up!

    Next are a few other holes in the BP that must be filled with reliable guys who can get some fucking outs. Some possibilities: Trevor Cahill, Neftali Feliz, Travis Wood, Brandon Morrow, Marc Rzepczynski (and you had problems with Smardj…)…there are quality arms available…giddy the fuck up, again!

    After that, we need to go get a power-hitting OFer (seems like this is a broken-record from years-past, but it is so glaringly true now). Desmond, Saunders, maybe Rasmus…LF FAs is a bit weak…

    Only ~143 days until pitchers and catchers report.

  26. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:50 am

    good take.
    Grant Brisbee ‏@mccoveychron 59s59 seconds ago
    The worst part of the loss are the scores of people yelling, “BOCHY SHOULD HAVE …”, like he could have pulled the Andrew Miller lever.

  27. Lurker John said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:50 am

    The Giants had the Cubs on the ropes. Theo Epstein looked like he was trying to shit out a grapefruit sized dooker (check out the GIG if you don’t believe me), Maddon had the 1000 yard stare going and their dugout looked like they were wrapped tighter than a Cuban cigar. Finishing them off and having Cueto going on Thursday would’ve put all of us in a pretty good frame of mind and the Cubs and their fans thinking, “Here we go again…”

    But BF is right, there’s no way to go play any decent stretch of baseball games without using the bullpen and, for the Giants, the chickens finally came home to roost. The only move the front office made before the trade deadline to bolster the pen was to bring in the fucking lefty reliever. Watching Andrew Miller against the BoSox the other night sure made me wish he were a Giant. He touched 99 mph a couple of times and was just filthy. Would he have given the Giants a better chance, who knows, but it would’ve been nice to find out.

    Matt Moore was brilliant last night, a total gamer in an elimination game. He has tremendous talent. and he used it to completely throttle the Cubs. Moving forward with him, Bum and Johnny C bodes well for the future. But the pen is a cesspool and job #1 for the front office to address. After that, hitters. The G’s had the #1 defense in MLB this year by fielding %, so that’s not an issue.

    • Lurker John said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:55 am

      GIF, the one BF posted last night.

  28. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:56 am

    Well, Crawford picked a shitty night to channel Orel Sax . . .

  29. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:58 am

    Hope you’re right about Kaepernick, ‘Dawg. He’s mainly playing for next year’s paycheck, so he needs to show something. Gabbert got a shitload better protection than Kapernick did these last couple years, so the hope is he can actually hit open guys.

  30. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:03 am

    What pisses me off to no end is the decision to put Lopez in was like a going-away present from Bochy.

  31. Irish Kevin said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:04 am

    We can argue all through the winter on who was to blame, the bottom line is the bullpen is crap. It should be at the top of the list of things to fix in the off season. Romo, Strickland, Lopez, and Casilla should not be on the team next year.

  32. chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:06 am

    Well, time to go cut some firewood…it is going to be a long-assed winter around the hot stove…

    Also need to find my damned fly rod and hit the Sierras with my son to get the skank of that loss outta my head…

  33. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:08 am

    Stix was finally the lucky one. He didn’t have to watch that.

  34. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:14 am

    That, and the OF, and the bench.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:10 am

      The bench is not terrible. I think Specs and Dizzy are very serviceable utility guys. Definitely need some depth and a starting LF in the OF, IMO. Priority one is a bonfide closer.

  35. zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:26 am

    Snarkk mentioned Bill Walsh at the end of the last thread….the Giants needs a Bill Walsh-esque cold clinical purging of the bullpen and bench in the off-season. It can’t just be a “tinker with things” kind of thing. I want to see harsh reality being dealt with. And I’d like Sabean to sit down with Bochy and debrief the season (which they probably do anyway), and Bochy needs to hear some criticism from his bosses. And he needs to get the message that even though he has multiple years left on his contract, there’s no guarantee the Giants wouldn’t make a change before that, if he sleep-walks his way through next season. The stupid sentimental stuff needs to stop. The core got old, and Bochy didn’t adjust. Trotting an injured Blanco out there for months, for example. And Blanco getting starts in the playoffs this year was incredibly frustrating to see. Adrianza needs to be dumped. Baer needs to do his own debriefing with Sabean/Evans. They need to get the message about not sleep-walking through next season. There needs to be urgency this off-season, or we’re just going to watch a team slowly decline for the next several years.

    • zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:28 am

      Or maybe even rapidly decline. Sheesh, what if they start next season the way they played the second half this season? Yikes.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:12 am

      “The core got old, and Bochy didn’t adjust.” The core got old part is on the front office, NOT Bochy. Bochy runs with the players he is provided. He has shit to choose from. Sure, he made some bone-headed decisions and needs to hear about them, and be held accountable, but the team getting old is not on him.

  36. zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:32 am

    Sure, we’ve got the championships and rings, and that is awesomely incredible and amazing and wondrous; but I hope the team is still hungry. It keeps the fun-factor very high for fans to still be a contender on into the future.

  37. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:42 am

    Kaep’s gonna do shit. He’s probably only half-assedly interested in playing anyway. He’s way more concerned about how his hair looks with his helmet off. Plus, he’s got the worst receiving core ever assembled in NFL history. I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest that.

  38. gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:58 am

    I agree sadly with Flav’s reality check assesment of this bullpen not going to help win a championship. I almost wished Rizzo blasted that two run homer. Romo would have been better off with no one on base and I said that all along thatvWill smith just cant pitch with any one on as well.

    But I just wanted one more game to keep the hope alive and enjoy one more game with my son (he will likely be away for college next baseball playoffs and probably last playoff run we could watch together on a daily basis) and I really thought Cueto could pull it off with or without a pen

    • gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:00 am

      And I thank Bochy for what he has done but I think we need fresh blood and some new energy managing the team and Decker would be a very fresh upbeat change of speed…Bochy as an advisor…tell Decker what wine goes best with what food…

      • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:13 am

        I disagree. I do not think Bochy is done. And he has three more years on his current deal. Sure, they could go another direction, but do not hold your breath…you’ll suffocate waiting.

  39. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:00 am

    Not really. Gabbert isn’t even trying to get the ball deep. Even though he blocking is good enough to get the ball downfield. .Streater is fine, as is Kerley. T Smith is getting open. Fucking Gabby either doesn’tt see him or overthrows him by 10 yards.

    Fucking Gabbert makes Alex Smith look like Daryle Lamonica.

  40. blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:09 am

    Down with most of the bullpen being jettisoned. That’s an easy and relatively inexpensive fix as noted by Flavor @ 6:38am. Get rid of the Cain/Peavy flotsam and the starting rotation is set, with one of our young guns taking the 5 spot (e.g., Blach).

    We need a legit power hitter. Outfield or 1st base – I don’t care. Bye bye Blanco and Pagan (unless he is down with a bench role). Meh on the following, i.e., all these guys are trade chips in my opinion . . . Talking about you Panik, Pence, Span, and Belt. If they stay, I’m down with that, as long as they perform in the first half of next season. If they don’t perform, get rid of them at the trade deadline.

    Last, but not least – serious consideration of moving Posey to 1st base.

    • Irish Kevin said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:16 am

      Panik and Pence get a pass due to injuries. Panik was just starting to hit the ball. Pence on the other hand, I don’t think he is completely healed.

      • gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:19 am

        Completely agree and dont think Posey was healthy until this series..

    • gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:18 am

      Panik as we finally saw was healthy tbis series. He is not going anywhere soon since he is undervalued and wint bring back much amd is very inexpensive.

      Belt is now expensive so other teams are not going to be in need of a Belt, so he is fairly untradable. If they perform well first half next season and increases their value, then it akes more sense holding on to them.

      Posey is not moving to first because he does not want to yet. So I am all good with Belt to left if we get a power hitting right-handed first baseman and I can only think of one who will be available next year…also Belt ended up having to hit in the two-hole and not where he needs to hit long-term…

      • blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:32 am

        Read what you wrote . . . Just wondering – when do you trade someone? Undervalued or overvalued (i.e., or as you said, “untradeable)??????? lulz

      • gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:46 am

        Well as a stock guy you know you never trade something undervalued. And when you have something valuable it doesnt make sense to trade that property if it is producing for you. Buyers are not going to buy expensive things either if they think the price is inflated.

        You trade an overvalued chip if your team is not going anywhere and you then are rebuilding. But the best time to make a trade is when the market value and the market itself is in alignment. Duffy for Matt Moore was the quintessential deal making.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:15 am

      Panik is going nowhere, and this nonsense of trading him is, well, IMO, nonsense. If he is healthy and tanks the first half of next year (really bad), then I might change my tune.

  41. gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:12 am

    Blade I think it is unfair to say Law blew it. He faced one batter and it was the one guy who had been on fire in Bryant. Let him pitch to one more guy. 35 pitches for a young reliever in one non-stress inning as Game 3 should not have been a burden on Law.

    Maybe they should have just gone Romo since he was their closer and give him the first two batters. And then maybe Strickland in on Zobrist and go from there. If they pull the double play there as well, we get out of the inning tied.

    But we have decent set up guys. Just need a closer and all the pieces will fall in place.

    • blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:20 am

      I said he was “fatigued,” having pitched the night before (35 pitches). However, I did add that all 5 relievers “face planted” during their opportunities last night.

  42. blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:27 am

    Small sample size on “. . . Panik was starting to hit again.” Dude is injury prone. Here we go again. Another case of “Gee wiz, give Cain (or fill in the blank) the keys to the Kingdom” and fast forward the next season after getting the megadeal, they go south insofar as perfromance. Getting tired of the face plants coming immediately after the multi-year megadeals. Granted, Panik hasn’t made his coin yet. However, the dude is always getting injured. Put up or shut up next season.

    • gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:33 am

      Only been a big leaguer 3 years. Now Tomlinson should get every start against a lefty but I have faith in Panik having a solid return next year.

    • Irish Kevin said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:44 am

      Yes, and that is why I wanted to keep Duffy. I thought for sure Panik would go before Duffy.

      • blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:55 am

        Hitting the sack (quite late in Vietnam). Kev, I loved Duffy. To me, he epitomized what Giants baseball was all about the last 6 years since our first WS. Like the team as a whole, he never gave up and more important, he was always team first – a humble guy who would sacrifice himself if it meant the team would benefit.

        That being said, Moore is a fantastic player and I get why Duffy was dealt. Even though it kills me to say it, Panik has accomplished more and to most observers, Panik has the better upside. Consequently, my mind says the right player was dealt, even though I like the Duffster more.

        Good night all.

      • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:18 am

        Duffy went because Tampa Bay was adamant that Duffy MUST BE a part of the Moore trade. Without Duffy, no trade.

  43. gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:32 am

    Even though I am rooting for Dusty, I am only praying they knock the Fodgers out tomorrow.

    The Cubs clearly have the best team in baseball and I’d rather have our Giants thought of as losing to the best team in the NL. I clearly prefer to have the Cubs win the pennant then I dont care.

    Hockey? Wake me when the Stanley Cup begins. Warriors (besides fantasy) is the only thing I care about next

  44. wilcojoe said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:32 am

    It’s easy to say “he should have done this or that”. I wasn’t shocked when he took him out in the ninth. Hell if you go back and look at my posts last night, I thought he would pull him after 7.
    I applauded his decision to let him pitch the 8th, but after 120 pitches and knowing the game today, I didn’t expect him to let Moore finish the game. The bottom line is a major league bullpen should be able to get 3 outs with a 3 run lead. The one thing I did have an issue with was his brining Lopez in. That mofo shouldn’t have been on the playoff roster.

    • blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:36 am

      Shit, I even said, “Put Madbum in” or words to that effect. I doubt anyone saw my post because we had just started a new page of comments.

    • gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:38 am

      Wilco, my son and I said the same thing that we were shocked to see him pitch the 8th, but offensively they also had a chance to try and score another run in the bottom of the 8th and flailed next having Panik bunt over Gillaspie…also having two players in Pagan and Nunez on the roster and unable to playbea sa retarded decision. They aint playing the next series now so how would it have hurt to replace one of them…but all on the pen. And Lopez should not have been on the roster…they dissed Lincecum and Panda in the past on post-seaspn rosters they should have DFAd Lopez…and I have loved Lopez since he arrived..

  45. Macdog said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:42 am

    A lot of good posts. I get what BF says about the bullpen that sooner or late it woulda let us down in the playoffs.

    But there were two different ways Moore was handled in his two best starts of the season. In the no-hit bid he started the 9th at 119 after throwing 22 in the 7th and 24 in the 8th and with a month-plus left in the season — he would make 7 more starts.

    Last night he was at 120 after throwing 9 in the 7th and 14 in the 8th — a bit less stressful than in the no-hit bid. And there was no tomorrow. So why wasn’t he left in like in the no-hit bid? Moore now has 4 months to rest up.

    • wilcojoe said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:48 am

      That’s a pretty good argument Mac.

  46. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:20 am

    Yeah, I’m down with that completely, Mac. I said earlier that Moore was cruising. If that was Bummie he would have told Bochy ‘you’ll have to pry this ball out of my hands after you kill me to keep me from pitching the 9th.’

    Moore may not have that cachet with Bochy, but Boch should have recognized it. The pen has been a disaster for weeks and he leans on them then?

    And it all comes down to Lopez and Bochy’s farewell tour with him. Fuck that hard. I’m convinced that is Bochy’s reasoning. That walk shifted the momentum pretty heavily.

  47. alleykat69 said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:27 am

    I’ve been pissed at work all day rethinking that fucking 9th inning meltdown for the ages!!
    Besides retooling that whole pen, know thinking get another stud starter and make Shark the closer like what the A’s did with Eckserley at about the same age.

  48. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:32 am

    I said last night Moore should have stayed in and as I said today, it probably would have worked. But the bigger picture is that we had no chance to win a world series this year if Bochy can’t go to his bullpen with a 3 run lead. It’s stupid to spend any time worrying about what happened. Unless one of you can come up with a scenario where we pitch every starter we have 9 innings the rest of the way. If he can’t bring someone in with a 3 run lead, when can he? 6? 12? It’s October, these guys aren’t machines. The bullpen matters all season but especially in the post season.

    • Macdog said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:38 am

      And I absolutely get that.

    • zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:47 am

      Game 5 in Chicago would have been a lot of fun, though; and we got cheated out of that.

      • Macdog said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:53 am

        Only night I was off work for the series. I was so looking forward to it.

  49. Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:57 am

    Casilla is just not smart if this is how he really feels:
    “I never had that moment before during five years here,” Casilla told the San Jose Mercury News. “I had a little struggle. But everybody [in the bullpen] has had their bad moments. I think they forgot all the great moments I’ve had here. I’ve pitched a lot in the playoffs and done my job. I know I am a good pitcher.”
    “I’m a pitcher. I’m part of the bullpen. I know I have had some bad moments in September and during the season, but I have good numbers in the playoffs and I know I can pitch in that situation,” Casilla told The Mercury News. “I know I can pitch in the big leagues.”

    • zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:13 pm

      Good luck for him trying to get a major league job next season.

    • gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:23 pm

      Pitchers that have that kind of confidence ala Brian Wilson has that cold dead look in their eyes. Casilla had the look throughout Sept that he just shat his pants…he would have looked the same last night.

      • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:17 pm

        Agreed. He’s the exact opposite of a nice long nap

    • pawliekokonuts said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:27 pm

      Casilla was pigheaded and stupid in his pitch selection. He is stubborn and delusional. Or vain.

  50. zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:16 pm

    I don’t know, obviously, how much say Bochy has in the personnel decisions. I like to think his championship capital with the team gives him a fair amount of say. Couldn’t he press the GM for certain things to happen with the personnel during the season? Sabean used to say “Bochy and I talk all the time.” Well, what were they talking about? I assume it was personnel stuff. And if this season, to Evans, Bochy was saying “I’m OK with Blanco and Adrianza, and Casilla as the closer,” then he bears some responsibility, too.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:49 pm

      I am sure Bochy has some input, and we will never know about those conversations. But I think the primary responsibility on the crap bullpen and bench rests on Sabevans.

  51. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:16 pm

    Casilla can prove that somewhere else. The pen was a tire fire and Bochy was throwing gasoline on it. All August, September, and now October. Frankly, Bochy stuck with Casilla too long down the stretch. I’m about 95% sure that’s what led to the friction between Romo, the rest of the pen and Bochy.

    And I don’t buy the ‘We wouldn’t win the series this year” crap either.

    You can say that about the 2010 team, the 2012 team, and the 2014 team. They were always the underdog. We won’t know now because Bochy fucked it up. We may not even have won on Thursday, but now we’ll never know. Protecting Moore’s arm? Bullshit. Like I said, Bochy wouldn’t take the ball out of Bummie’s hand in that situation. Why Moore?

    Love Bochy and the job he’s done, and he has had a great run, but he’s mainly responsible for the loss last night.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:51 pm

      I agree with you and many that Moore should have started the 9th, and I think Bochy owns “part” of the responsibility for last night, but not sure I buy that he is “mainly” responsible. We can agree to disagree…not a big rock…

  52. gianthead said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:19 pm

    My 8 and 10 year old boys came crashing into the house from the school bus (they leave at 7 am for school and my ass is asleep) and so happy the Cubs beat our Giants…little bastards. On top of that, because all the other boys in their school want the Nats to win, he is also cheering for the Fodgers!!!! He is about to be disowned…

    • pawliekokonuts said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:24 pm

      gotta brainwash ’em better

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:52 pm

      Have you tried bamboo slivers under the finger nails? That gets their attention every time…

    • blade3colorado said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:59 pm

      Read this and am still laughing. One of your funniest posts ever GH.

  53. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:21 pm

    Pen problems or no, these starters would always have a shot to get us deep into games. All the way to and through the world series. Maybe we are up 6-0 every fucking game. No one knows. You have to play the game in front of you. Bochy didn’t. He fell victim to what cursed Matt Williams in 2014.

    Fuck it. I’m done.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:54 pm

      I love ya brother, but thank goodness…I think you made your point…at least I got it. 😉

  54. pawliekokonuts said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:22 pm

    Is it fact or myth about Lopez being so bad? He was terrible early on but his numbers greatly improved. Does someone have facts that he always walked the guy he faced? I thought he had become his old self in recent weeks. And I wouldn’t know where to look to prove or disprove any of this.

    True, Bochy would be one of the few managers to let Moore pitch the 9th. He lets Bum do it. He let Moore do it for a possible no-hitter. But EVERYONE is right. At some point, you have to go to your bullpen. Every starter wasn’t going to pitch a CG for the postseason. Nope. Not a strategy.

    Hey, a lot of other teams didn’t even get as far as the Giants. Good teams. With better records and better players.

    But that doesn’t make me feel much better.

    Like Loo, I don’t want to even recall the sequence. My feed stalled. It was 5-5 when it came back. I felt if we kept it at that we had a chance, but not if we were behind.

    Still, you ain’t winning a WS with that ‘pen.

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 1:03 pm

      4.05/1.463. SO/W ratio = 1.00 (not good). That is for the entire season.

      Splits:
      April – 6.75, 1.688, SO/W – 2.00
      May – 4.91, 1.636, SO/W – 0.50
      June – 4.15, 1.846, SO/W – 0.25 (one strike-out for every four walks – OUCH)
      July – 0.00, 0.800, SO/W – 4.00
      August – 4.50, 1.750, SO/W – 0.67
      Sept/Oct – 4.15, 1.154, SO/W – 2.00

      So, he had a very good month in July, Sept/Oct were OK (good WHIP and SO/K decent), but rest of the year, he flat out sucked.

  55. pawliekokonuts said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:25 pm

    32 blown saves . . .. and think about it . . ….Romo sucked the night before…..bullpen blew that but we escaped

    I’m out too

  56. unca_chuck said, on October 12, 2016 at 12:40 pm

    24 hits in 26 innings is fair to middling but throw in 15 walks and you have a shitty Whip for Javy. Around 1.5

  57. djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 1:33 pm

    I’m wondering what I’ll be up for next year. The WC game at Citifield was a great way to go out. I don’t know if I have the energy to stay up till 2:00 AM all those nights again. Might just get the radio package and let Miller put me to sleep by midnight…

    • chipower9 said, on October 12, 2016 at 2:29 pm

      As long as you continue to run rampant around here, it is all good, brother.

      • djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:17 pm

        Thanks, Chi…

  58. zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 3:13 pm

    Lopez’s cowardly pitching this season told us what he thought of his stuff. 15 walks is an insane number for a pitcher in his situation, who was often brought in with somebody else already on base, usually to face one batter. He was the very essence of a gas-can relief pitcher. Rough way to end his major league career. I can’t imagine he makes a major league team next season. Does Romo even make a squad next year? Casilla, of course, no. The Giants kept all of those guys one season too long.

    • wilcojoe said, on October 12, 2016 at 4:08 pm

      There were some great comments last night and the night prior. One of my favorites was your line about the “cowardly Lopez” winning the Willie Mac award.

      • djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:30 pm

        I think they gave that to Lopez as kind of a lifetime achievement award…

    • Macdog said, on October 12, 2016 at 5:21 pm

      I’ve been wondering about the last part of this paragraph ever since last night:

      I’m convinced that if the same Game 4 circumstance had come up on the road, Casilla would have pitched in that ninth inning. Bochy simply had made up his mind that he was not going to use Casilla with a lead at home. (Now, why would Casilla even be on the roster, if that were the case, is another question.)

      • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:56 pm

        Well, the roster is set before game 1. So, in theory there are up to 3 road games he might play him.

    • zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 5:49 pm

      It’s well written, but I have some problems with some of it. The fans didn’t forget Casilla’s good seasons. Hey, Father Time gets every player in the end, and often the player is the last one too see it.

      • zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 5:49 pm

        “to see it”

      • zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 5:50 pm

        Unfortunately, the manager was one of the last to see it, too.

      • zumiee said, on October 12, 2016 at 5:53 pm

        Can the average worker be successful 77% of the time without getting fired? Most of the time, no. But Steward thinks that’s darn good for the average worker. A little disconnected I’d say.

      • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:54 pm

        Agreed, there are several issues I have with it too. I just thought it had a nice emotional take i hadn’t considered.

      • djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:55 pm

        How’s a 77% success rate for airline pilots?

  59. James said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:21 pm

    Blade asked earlier about how much a manager contributes, and the 2-3 wins number is one I’ve heard before, too. Not being tactically stupid seems like the manager’s biggest positive impact on W-L.

    Watching them give up 2 and 3 run leads in the 9th on *consecutive* nights was just about as sickeningly bad as it gets. I’ve defended Romo for many years now, yet last night when he pulled that glove in front of mouth shit, I let loose with my first ever “Fuck you, Romo!” I totally get BF’s wish for 100% turnover in the bullpen. Lopez’s walk and Strickland’s 0-2 meatball . . . .

    Over the course of the season, I’d look occasionally at the starter/pen splits. By the end of the year, the bullpen’s ERA was actually slightly lower than the starters’. The bullpen WHIP was a little higher, but, basically, SF’s shitty bullpen performed as well in the aggregate as the starters. The Giants had the third best ERA in the NL.

    If you look at the distribution of runs allowed for each inning over the year, you’ll also see that the numbers for innings 7-9 are pretty good (3.41 ERA), in fact better than innings 1-6, although the 9th reflects some of Casilla’s troubles. What the fuck went wrong?

    See horrible stats for save situations:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=p&team=SFG&year=2016#outco

    Now, a save situation is basically any time in the 7-9th innings where there is a lead of 3 runs or fewer. Casilla’s troubles aside, it is pretty bizarre that the bullpen pitched so much more poorly in save situations, given how broad the definition is.

    I’d bet you could trot this exact same bullpen out there for another 162 games, and get far more satisfactory results. It’s a lot of random shit.

    • Flavor said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:20 pm

      Thankfully (or hopefully) we aren’t going to have to see how this plays out over next year’s 162. Tomorrow’s thread is gonna be guessing who stays and who goes in the bullpen next year. Gonna noodle that out as I drift off to sleep tonight and then cobble something together tomorrow in the dark when I rise.

    • sandog said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:04 pm

      Nice post

  60. pawliekokonuts said, on October 12, 2016 at 6:50 pm

    I still can’t believe it. Oh. Wait. Of course I can. It had happened for two months similarly.

  61. djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:23 pm

    Possible explanation: Bochy thinks the crowd is singing “Don’t Stop Relievin”…

  62. PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on October 12, 2016 at 7:48 pm

    The main thing that bothered me about Bochy in the 2nd half, and this is just observational, was his apparent over-reliance on the dudes he knows best, which is fine when the dudes he knows best are performing. Several younger, newer Giants plugged some key holes and greatly contributed to that *best record* at the break, and yet in the 2nd half, we hardly saw those players anymore, mostly because injured starters returned. With the team in extended free fall even after those returns, those “other guys” still could have contributed, but the team continued to go with the likes of Blanco, 000, etc. I think this is one reason I wouldn’t mind seeing Bochy retiring: the team *should* have a bunch of new players next year, and it just seems like a good time to change management too, to meld a new team together in new ways. Not overly confident Bochy can do that anymore. Actually, not overly sure he would even want to, after this, his self-admittedly most challenging of seasons.

  63. willedav said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:08 pm

    “…couldn’t pull the Andrew Miller lever.” Well, Evans turned the Yanks down when they asked for Panik or he might have been available all September and last night, and under team control going forward. To me that was a no brainer, and the fact that Evans couldn’t do any better than the FLR an epic fail.
    Panik’s first half season he was .700 OPS guy. Last year, which he couldn’t finish, he was .800, this year again with injuries, back to .700.
    These last few days are more what he really is? Oh, anyone feel that away about Span? Anyone?

    Overlying theme for me this entire season is Giants FO/mgmt consistently overvaluing what they have. Hope they reassess and make better decisions this offseason.

    • djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:28 pm

      Never heard that one, Willie. Thought the Yanks were real happy with Castro…

      • willedav said, on October 12, 2016 at 10:05 pm

        McCovey Chron guy Brisbee reported it in a column defending Evans and Giants afterward, said at the time things went down he wouldn’t have gone for it either.

    • Macdog said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:31 pm

      Miller 4 scoreless innings in two appearances in ALDS with 7 Ks, and of course the Indians are still playing.

      • djloo27 said, on October 12, 2016 at 8:38 pm

        The Giants didn’t have the prospects to get Miller…

      • Macdog said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:03 pm

        Yeah, yeah.

  64. PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on October 12, 2016 at 9:29 pm

    Ahead of tomorrow’s thread about the bullpen, just curious if anyone knows the contract situations of all of those relievers that most of us seem to want to permanently relieve of their duties. Just wondering how easy it would be, or are we stuck with some of them because of contracts..

  65. mrsprtdude said, on October 12, 2016 at 11:48 pm

    Specs was as good as Panic down the stretch. If we make the trade to get Miller or Melancon we win the west and are waiting to play the Cubs in the NLCS…Just a thought…


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