THE San Francisco Giants Blog

New York Just Won The 2018 World Series

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on December 9, 2017

 

I never understood all the noise about Stanton going to the Dodgers as it didn’t look like a good fit from the start. He wanted to go there? So what, the Dodgers don’t need him at the price it would take to get him. The Yankees are going BIG and it’s really a fantastic move for them. If Stanton doesn’t like NY (even if he wins a WS there he might not like it) then he can opt out in 2020 and I bet the Dodgers have far more interest.

Stanton, Judge and Sanchez—144 home runs in 2017. Lol.

Let’s just check in on what a dumbass Chris Mish is. There are MANY sideways, misguided tweets from him but I don’t want to clog up the thread. Here are some examples from just yesterday. Guys like this are what’s wrong with reporting on the internet…..

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  1. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 6:27 am

  2. zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:16 am

    I kind of liked the Yankees last season, but now the media overkill and Yankee fan obnoxiousness will make me dislike them again.

    • Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:22 am

      i like that they’re legitimately relevant again. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be a Red Sox fan.

      • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:28 am

        Lots of pressure on Aaron Boone.

    • gianthead said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:23 pm

      Here here. Go Stros…

  3. blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:32 am

    Done deal (or nearly done). Castro and low level prospects for Stanton.

    The Yankees don’t need Stanton, but the Marlins are desperate. Stanton has made clear that only 4 teams are acceptable to him – as Craig has noted, the Bums have zero interest; Cubs are looking for pitching; the Astros don’t need Stanton; and the Yankees are set in the outfield already and equally important, Hal Steinbrenner has made it clear that the Yankees will not be over the luxury tax.

    The key issue for the Yankees was that the Marlins take either salaried veterans and/or a portion of Stanton’s remaining contract so they can stick to their vow to stay under the $197 million luxury tax in 2018. Stanton counts as $25 million toward the tax and Castro, at $8.6 million toward the tax, would defray a piece of it. What was not publicly known yet is if or how much of Stanton’s salary the Marlins are eating to make it palatable for the Yankees to do a deal.

    IMO, the Yankees are going to “nut a pearl necklace” on Jeter’s face.

    • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:36 am

      People will be suspicious of the Jeter connection.

      • Lurker John said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:23 am

        What’s to be suspicious of? It’s not a conspiracy, Jeter is an all-time Yankee. If that connection facilitated the deal, good for him and them. Nothing untoward about it.

  4. zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:34 am

    Possible ad campaign:
    “Your 2018 Giants: better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!”

  5. willedav said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:34 am

    cbssite guy said it’s Starlin Castro and some combo of prospects, with maybe Marlins picking up some $$$.
    Leaves Yanks with surplus of OFs too in addition to teams like Stros and Cards. Plus Marlins might still dump off Ozuna/Yelich.
    Yanks SPs still ?. Stros are defending champs til knocked out the box.

    I think the SanDawg (who I hope is OK down there now that entire SoCal has turned into fire zone) plan is sound. Add a quality CF, who you needed anyway even with Stanton, see what is out there for 3b/pen depth and hope Bell turns farm system into more productive part of the org. in next few years.
    Stratton looks like keeper, maybe Shaw and Slater too.

  6. blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:40 am

    Getting late in Vietnam, so I apologise in advance for posting this again. Besides myself, I think snarkk is the other Lone Ranger insofar as believing our franchise needs a complete rebuild. If that’s not the case, I apologise to snarkk too.

    “I hope we forget about Plan B (Lorenzo Cain or Mike Moustakas both come with a qualifying offer that would cost the Giants a pair of high draft picks). Sorry Sandog, that would be insane in my opinion . . . We need MORE draft picks, not less.

    Same deal with Santana – we can’t afford the shit load of prospects which they’ll want. Besides, our prospects wouldn’t even cause the Brewers GM to even consider such a deal, much less even take Booby’s phone call. Again, a fools errand.

    We have 1 life line – only 1 . . . Trade Bumgarner, Posey, Belt, Alphabet, and Crawford for prospects and bite the bullet on our journey through the wilderness years. Wake up Flappers! Embrace reality!

    CBS Sports agrees with me . . . ”

    https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/spurned-by-shohei-ohtani-and-giancarlo-stanton-giants-can-rebuild-in-a-big-way/

    • sfsarge said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:02 am

      Yes, the retool/reload ship has sailed, it’s rebuild time. It would be wise to trade Bum while you can still get some value in return. My sentimental side would be very sad to see Posey go, but my practical side understands this could bring in some much needed GOOD prospects in return.

    • wilcojoe said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:35 am

      I am with you and Snarkk, Blade. It’s the only logical way to go. The thing is, if they went this route TODAY, and came out and admitted their plan (like the Astros ownership did) they could turn this ship around after just two more shit storm seasons. Unlike in Houston, where attendance suffered during the rebuild, SF has the “Cubization” factor that Snarkk always references. The ballpark itself, will sell itself. Instead of 3 mm annual attendance, you live with 2.25 mm for a couple of seasons.

      Quite frankly if they don’t tear down and instead continue with Sabes “we don’t rebuild” mantra, this shit team is going to be so boring and hopeless for so many years, that eventually the “Cubization” factor will wear off and even the park in its trendy location will lose its luster. Trade em all I say and do it NOW.

      • snarkk said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:10 am

        What you said, wjoe…

      • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:01 pm

        Excellent post Joe!

  7. willedav said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:42 am

    Dan Hicks b-day today, Jim Morrison yesterday, Tom Waits day before that 7th.
    Also today trumpeter Donald Byrd, famous for recording the beautiful hymn “Cristo Redentor” in ’63.

    • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:40 am

      Speaking of music, I’ve been reading the new biography of Paul Simon. It’s interesting and well-written. I like the Simon and Garfunkel recordings more than Simon’s solo career, but his overall life story brings in a lot of interesting connections.

    • xoot said, on December 9, 2017 at 10:52 am

      Junior Wells today too. Wish I could see that KY Monmouth game

  8. zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:30 am

    Well, that’s two different things: what needs to be done and what WILL be done.

  9. unca_chuck said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:31 am

    From Schulman. Reminds me of the pilots reported on KTVU a while back.

    • unca_chuck said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:32 am

      Flavorway?

      • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:42 am

        lulz!

      • djloo27 said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:13 am

        It’s like their mocking us…

  10. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:57 am

  11. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:00 am

    Steve– I’m not sure what you mean by “wake up Flappers,embrace reality.” I think I’d say the same to you about your strange belief that the front office would know how to re-build. Those *6 bullet point* article from the other day? LOL the Giants have never done any of that and would have no clue how to even take on a project like that.
    I’m on board with the need for a complete tear down/re-build. I think that’s fairly obvious with all the aging players and bloated contracts we have. I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect this ownership/management group to successfully do that. So, in lieu of that, I’ll take the best players they can get to replace the shitty ones we have. I’m a fan of this team year to year and game to game. I want them to win as many possible games as they can, every year. I’d be cool with a few 100 loss seasons if I thought Baer and Sabean had a plan going forward from there. They do not.

    • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:15 am

      To be a little fair to them- they understood how to win in the pre-“juiced ball” era. The juiced ball has completely flummoxed them.

  12. djloo27 said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:13 am

    It’s also not so easy to find takers for big contracts of 30+ year old guys…

    • Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:22 am

      that’s true. What should they do? Release all of them and bring up shitty AAA fodder? It’s never going to happen. The Giants are stuck and there’s no way out. They could have possibly made the post season next year if they’d signed Stanton and Ohtani. As currently constructed, adding guys like Lorenzo Cain or whatever, it’s just not going to do much except win them a few games.

  13. Macdog said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:19 am

    Someone compared this to McHale giving away Garnett to Ainge. I fail to see how this is good for baseball. The Marlins should be contracted.

    • djloo27 said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:29 am

      Where did they get the money to build that big new toilet bowl they play in?

  14. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:20 am

  15. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:30 am

    Dodgers weren’t going to do this.

  16. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:33 am

    to reiterate: I have endorsed, MANY TIMES, trading Bumgarner and Posey. Trading them would be the only place to start a complete re-build. Management would never do it. I accepted that, that’s why I stopped talking about it. Chatting shit up that’s never going to happen is a waste of time.

  17. Macdog said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:39 am

    Cashman and Boone sitting courtside at MSG for the exciting Kentucky-Monmouth game (Wildcats up 33-20), I’m surprised Jeter isn’t there serving them drinks.

  18. wilcojoe said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:54 am

    Could the Marlins with Jeter be a glorified crew to the Steinbrenner family up north? Makes you wonder.

    • Macdog said, on December 9, 2017 at 10:03 am

      He’s now Mr. December for the Yanks.

  19. zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 10:33 am

    In the ’50s and ’60s the Kansas City A’s were a glorified farm club for the Yankees.

  20. Macdog said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:07 am

    Xoot: Kentucky cruised 93-76, and it wasn’t that close. Even Calipari’s kid got a decent chunk of playing time. Ah, but BC just took down Duke.

    • xoot said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:59 am

      thanks. KY’s point guard looked a lot better the last time I watched them than he did vs. KS early on. And Knox is the real deal, I think.

  21. snarkk said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:19 am

    Looks like the Fix was in, Stanton going to the Pinstripe Nemesis, not the Blue one. Yanks, with the juiced ball, are looking like the Murderers Row redux. Stanton may hit 70 in that launching pad…

  22. Lurker John said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:20 am

    The fucking Yankees? Are you fucking kidding me? What happened to all the “I’m from L.A. I wanna go home bullshit?” WTF.

    • Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:42 am

      LA wasn’t going to take on all that salary. Plus, that guy is a party-er. He needs the big city to rage in with the ladies.

  23. snarkk said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:26 am

    The total re-build is what the Giants SHOULD do. It’s not what they WILL do. The Niners finally realized they were absolute crap, with a crap front office, and cleaned the stable out to start over. They’re on the way to being relevant again, maybe even by next season after the deft Jimmy G pickup, some high picks coming up, and a smart set of FA signings this offseason. Year after, they should be playoff relevant, they have smart people running things again. In contrast, Giants can plug and play as usual with castoffs over the coming years, and struggle for .500, which is what will happen. If they refuse to recognize a re-build is needed after 1.5 seasons of crap and a guy like Gorkys is playing a ton of games, then we know where this team is headed for the foreseeable future. Their best move was getting Bell over from the Cardinals. If he can implement quickly a Cardinal type minor league system of talent eval and acquisition and training, there’s hope maybe for 2021 and later…

    • Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 11:58 am

      and that’s a good parallel with the Niners. Of course, the Niners didn’t start to get better till they cleaned house. Giants are stuck with the same people in charge who are trying to navigate through a new world they simply don’t understand. I’d be ecstatic if the Giants shitcanned Bochy and Sabean and Evans and brought in their version of Shanny and Lynch. If that happened I could see a different organizational direction being fulfilled. But that isn’t going to happen either.

      • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:17 pm

        The Giants, under Baer, have built a massive marketing strategy built on history, nostalgia, and player recognition and love of these players. They’ve marketed heavily to women, a new and growing market. It’s not an atmosphere and climate of treating players like interchangeable parts. It’s a quandary now. Baer has sort of philosophically boxed the Giants in.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:17 pm

      Again, great post. You, Joe, and I are spot on knowing what’s necessary to extricate this franchise from mediocrity.

  24. gianthead said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:10 pm

    Yanks now need a 2b…thoughts on what
    we would want for Panik…Clint Frazier is awfully interesting and he is left out in NY as a starter. Yanks would make us take an awful contract like Ellsbury or one year of Gardner/Headley.

    We then force them to take Belt and they add Bird to the deal. The cash difference would $2 mill or less going Giants way.

    Frazier in right
    Gardner to center
    Pence/Spam left
    Headley third
    Crawford short
    Arroyo second
    Bird first
    Posey catcher

    We keep Shaw, Beede and Ramos or they go for Ozuna and we would have payroll around $200 mill. And bonus of Gardner, Headley, Spam and Pence all gone afrer 2018 along with $52 mill in payroll and Belt’s $17 mill plus also gone. That magically would leave the team with $80-$85 mill or closer to $100 mill if no Ozuna.

    Donaldson, LF with no Ozuna, CF, upgrade Bum’s contract and bullpen all with $85-$100 mill to spend for 2019.

    • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:19 pm

      That’s some serious rosterbating.

    • snarkk said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:34 pm

      Bum will not be getting any better as he gets older. Fact.
      Why keep him to pay an astronomical amount for a predictably declining performance ala Cain? And, with a so-so squad.
      The only reason to do so has to be non-baseball related…

  25. djloo27 said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:24 pm

    The talk here FWIW is that Ellsbury must be unloaded…

    • gianthead said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:37 pm

      Ellsbury and Belt is almost perfect swap in salary remaining. We would need Bird or Frazier to be added..stick Ellsbury into leadoff in my mock lineup. Arroyo at third if we kept Panik.

  26. gianthead said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:34 pm

    My hypo magic lineup:)

    1) Gardner (left) – CF
    2) Crawford (left) – SS
    3) Clint Frazier (right) – RF
    4) Ozuna (right) – LF * this Santana guy would fit as well and probably take less prospects
    5) Bird (left) – 1b
    6) Posey (right) – C
    7) Headley (right) – 3b
    8) Arroyo (right) – 2b

    Maybe not Wild Card material for ’18 but entertaining and something to build around…

    • djloo27 said, on December 9, 2017 at 12:57 pm

      Yanks LOVE Bird.
      They would definitely part with Betances if that helps you, GH.
      I admire your efforts…

  27. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 1:49 pm

    • xoot said, on December 9, 2017 at 2:17 pm

      they need to add some bleacher seats up there too

  28. xoot said, on December 9, 2017 at 2:05 pm

    Domingo Santana struck out 178 times last season–3rd worst in NL, I believe. Houston got him in the trade that sent Pence to Philly. The Astros took a pretty good look at him and said vaya con dios. Then they said the same thing to Santana’s replacement, Carlos Gomez, as part of their very successful effort to reduce SOs.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:52 pm

      Good post Xoot. Agree 100%.

  29. blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    Yes, I agree with you 100% Craig that the front office has no clue right now on how to do a “rebuild,” as indicated by their pursuit of Stanton. They’ve wasted 2 months of the Hot Stove season on this fools errand.

    So, in telling you and others here to embrace reality – you’re right, I’m speaking to the wrong group . . . Unfortunately, Sabes and Booby aren’t taking my calls from my Vietnam area code (lulz). Anyway, I am counting on Sabes to eventually “get it” by the end of the next season, when this Franchise has wasted more millions of dollars on the Frazier’s and Cain’s of the world to prop up our old, nearly 100 loss existing roster.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:10 pm

      One other thing – I disagree that anything here said by you, other Flappers, or me is a waste of time . . . Just my take, but that’s what makes me come back to read and post on the Flap. If I want the company line – I’ll go to the Giants or Gate websites.

      . . . Or, am I wrong?

      • Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:20 pm

        no, I think you’re right. It’s a good place to vent, I guess. It just felt like you were talking down to me (others). Like we don’t get that this team is fucked. Because of the 3 WS wins I can tolerate the wilderness years–as long as I don’t have to watch the same players fail year after year. I’m fucking sick to death of watching Belt walk with men on base and/or Posey deftly going the other way all the time.
        That’s why I am looking forward to any changes that are made, realizing that the main changes that need to be made, tearing down the team, trading Bum and Posey etc…. aren’t going to happen.
        Gimmie some new players. I can get into that, especially while our record in 2018 still hasn’t fallen under .500 yet.

      • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:39 pm

        I’m sick of this team too. Frankly, I think the catalyst was the Flap trip to Boston and New York. We were shitty right after the All Star game . . . and the losses got worse (embarrassingly worse) in Boston and New York. If not for being with other Flappers – which was great – I would have considered the trip a waste of time.

        My point is that this team has disgusted me and continues to disgust me. Bum being selfish riding a dirt bike; Belt and his walks and concussions; Gorksky being on a major league roster; the 2 other fools in left; Panda being back; Pence and his ditzy wife; Cueto and a fucking blister that lasts an entire season; Moore and his nervous condition; Span playing CF, etc., etc.

        This entire roster sucks and I want them ALL gone.

  30. unca_chuck said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    Thing about the 49ers is they cleaned out coaching staffs 3 times before they got it right. It wasn’t until Baalke went that they really turned it around. And fucking Jed has shut his mouth and stopped with the tweets.

  31. willedav said, on December 9, 2017 at 5:59 pm

    well I disagree with complete tear down as a philosophy to get better.
    IF, pitching staff is healthy—Bum Cueto FLR and Melancon—Giants will allow significantly fewer runs and lessen run differential. More experience for Stratton replacing Cain, any bump from Moore or Smrdz, plus Gearrin or Strick helps move needle in right direction. Emphatic NO to trading Bum, true ace.

    Other side, I do not believe Posey Belt Panik Craw fall off the offensive table at their age which isn’t exactly social security eligible. the middle IFs are certainly OKs hitters for their position, Posey is excellent and Belt acceptable, again at full season of health.

    Add in a quality CF (.800 OPS guy) to LU and hope for best with Slater/Shaw/Arroyo as young building blocks.
    .500 equals a contender in the NL. Giants have money to spend and OF/!F/pen depth is attainable in off season.

  32. unca_chuck said, on December 9, 2017 at 6:10 pm

    Last year truly was an embarrassment of epic proportions. Everyone here and elsewhere was concerned about the outfield and the pen. Then Bummie acted stupid and the OF went sub-zero and they trotted out fucking Ruggiano? Drew Stubbs? Calexico? They were beyond horrific and they sat on their hands as the losses mounted. And they continued to spin their wheels while teams got better at the deadline. Now they are still hoping the vets come around and they will turn back the clock and it’ll be just like 2014. Fat chance. I’m irked at this point. I guess it won’t really be an issue until they start blowing leads and losing a lot of pen games and getting blasted 12-4 continuously.

    They just suffered 2 more losses by not getting Stanton or Ohtani. An even 100 losses for the fucking year . . .

  33. unca_chuck said, on December 9, 2017 at 6:17 pm

    The thing about a rebuild is it can’t happen unless the front office eats Belt’s, Crawfish’s, Span’s, Pence’s, and especially Posey’s bloated contract. Then there’s Samarj and Melancon. I don’t have the interest to look it up, but I’m sure it’s about $1 gazillion dollars. And they are all coming off dogshit years. Posey has decent numbers, but 3 XBHs after the break?

    Posey may get interest at the break next season, but we would be eating what, $70 mill just on that?

    • Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 6:31 pm

      that’s a point I forgot to mention—as much as I am positive this current front office has no clue how to teardown and rebuild, I also doubt that ANYONE could fix this mess. As you point out, we have several players who make a shit load of $$$ who no one wants. Just DFA’ing everyone isn’t realistic.

  34. djloo27 said, on December 9, 2017 at 6:51 pm

    Posey is probably a Giant for life.
    At least the life of his contract…

  35. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:00 pm

    • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:47 pm

      Great photo. I’ve been a big Elton fan over the years. Not every album, but a lot of them.

  36. Flavor said, on December 9, 2017 at 7:46 pm

  37. blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:25 pm

    Bryce Harper, Manny Machado and possibly Clayton Kershaw available after next season . . . “Roster Holes R Us” @ all outfield positions, 3rd base and pitcher.

    • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:45 pm

      More Marlins deals are possible at the winter meetings beginning Sunday in Orlando, Florida, with Castro and outfielders Christian Yelich and Marcell Ozuna possibly on the trading block.

      If I am the Giants, I don’t miss this 2nd (and probably last chance) hot stove opportunity to acquire all three of these guys (Castro can play 3rd). This would be part 1 of 2 parts. The 2nd part being next year’s goal to acquire Harper, Machado and/or Kershaw next season.

      However, knowing the ineptness of this Booby led Front Office – they will undoubtedly be shut out.

      • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 8:57 pm

        And the rumor mill will continue to churn.

        Dustin Nosler
        @DustinNosler
        Source: #Dodgers and #Marlins still talking Marcell Ozuna. Nothing close; still in the early stages.
        6:28 PM – Dec 9, 2017

      • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:14 pm

        If the Giants sit on their hands this off-season, I’m out . . . Window dressing additions won’t cut it. Go big with sweeping changes: exorcise the entire/most of the roster for prospects . . . Or, acquire 2-3 impact players like Yelich, Ozuna, and Castro.
        Plan A or B.

        The only reason I’ll check in once in awhile, is the same reason traffic stalls for a car or train wreck, i.e., morbid curiosity.

      • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:17 pm

        How about you Zum? Are you going to be watching games every day next season?

        A better question – Flavor, will you continue to write a daily blog if we again march toward 100 defeats (especially, if Booby lacks a plan, besides figuring out how to increase garlic fries and crab sandwich sales)?

      • djloo27 said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:47 pm

        Yes, just re-name it “The Flop”…

      • blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 10:26 pm

        The Flop . . . hmm. You’re onto something there Loo.

      • zumiee said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:53 pm

        Yeah, I can hang in there even if they’re spinning their wheels next season. Something has to give next season. Some kind of change has to happen. I think even Baer will wake to reality at some point.

  38. gianthead said, on December 10, 2017 at 6:06 am

    There is no way on an unfrozen earth we ever land a Machado or Harper….they will use us Team Gianfucko did. And Boras has Harper…fuck them both.

    Now the post-Gianfucko trade analysis has the Yankees definitely looking to move Clint Frazier with the clear hint of Headley and/or Ellsbury having to go.

    Sabes/Evans need to go back and employ their only strategy: desperation!!!

    They can afford to take both (half of Ellsbury) and that amounts to about $23.5 mill. Belt and Panik will be about $22 mill. Clean swap. Giants could deal with two more years of Ellsbury at $21 mill while they get rid of three more years of Belt at $17 each. Giants come out ahead.

    Yanks could be enamored of Bird but they are not dumping Headley and/or Ellsbury without bringing back equal contracts and presumably they have a hole at 2nd now. Maybe Smardaramjam would be a more likely target and his contract is almost the same as Belt.

    I would take Betances if they wont give up Bird and Frazier would look great roaming RF. Still leaves all of our prime prospects available for a Ozuna or Yelich target acquisition (McCutchen as well may be take less to acquire). A McCutchen-Ellsbury-Frazier outfield again is a far more entertaining than what they trotted out there last year. Cutch would put them just slightly in luxury cap territory.

  39. […] Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on December 10, 2017 blade3colorado said, on December 9, 2017 at 9:17 pm (Edit) […]


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