A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

Changing Of The Guard

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on March 8, 2021

Well now that The Grave Duggar has blasted away from his lower rung competition with yesterday’s spring bomb and I have once again proven to have the keenest eye for spotting true baseball talent it’s time to move on to more important things:

Heliot Ramos needs to be starting opening day. I’m not saying that because of his two home runs. Although those were real real nice. Ramos looks like a ballplayer, he walks like a ballplayer the ball comes off his bat in ways our Bore Core could only dream of replicating.

This year is going to be ugly. Baer will bill it as a swansong for the aged vets and that’s a total cop out. I don’t need a year of losses to say goodbye to the past. A few knowing dude head nods will suffice. Hell I can do that in two seconds.

If we have to watch the boring what’s wrong with sprinkling in some exciting? Isn’t that what this is all about? Entertainment?

77 Responses

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  1. zumiee said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:32 am

    Some of the Bore Core did bounce back a bit in last year’s mini-season. Not likely to see it sustaining during a full season, though.

    • willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:55 am

      Sure but you can say that about anyone’s numbers off 2020. Can Giants trust Gausman?
      btw you have to let us know what publications you read say about SF. I go back and reread baseball books I have around house or get from libraries this time of year. Going back over Keith Law’s Smart Baseball right now.

  2. willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:48 am

    No. This is Arizona spring ball=zero connection to reality of ML pitching. Ramos at AA ball, which was late 2019, was a barely league average hitter with 3 HRs in 95 ABs. He was worse than Bart, who also by coincidence homered I guess yesterday. The Giants have plenty enough OFs (and IFs for that matter) who have proven they can hit ML pitching. Unless you want to tank the entire season there is no way they promote Ramos or any of the other prospect Arizona HR hitters.

    I didn’t find last year hitters at all boring–they finished well in top half of league for runs scored etc. Exception of course was Bart—the inexperienced one who couldn’t adjust to what ML pitchers were doing to him.

    • Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:57 am

      Come on, you’re going back to 2019? He was a freaking teenager. He’s developed into a man. He’s ready now. And who’s spot is he stealing that has you bummed out?

      • willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:02 am

        Everyone of the OFs–Yaz Dickerson Dubon Slater even Ruf have proven they can hit ML pitching, including last year while Ramos was diddling his thumbs at the alt site with 19yr olds and scrubinis. Do you really think you can go right from the alt site to ML? He isn’t a “man” as a hitter either he’s a freaking inexperienced kid who has played 25 games in his life above A Ball.
        This is why I don’t follow day to day of ST— it’s 99% meaningless.
        Btw, Shea said he also dropped routine fly ball in OF after losing balance and had a collision with Luis Baseball on another play. shea blamed Basabe for not deferring to CF, but can you imagine if that was Yaz that he ran into instead?

  3. blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 7:32 am

    A day late and a dollar short Flavor, but I do agree . . .

    “blade3colorado said, on March 5, 2021 at 7:28 am (Edit)
    If the Giants want to sniff .500 this season, they better bring up my “boy” Ramos. Heliot’s a “Porsche” compared to all the “Gremlins” they have right now. Add him to the Yaz and Dubón outfield and you’ll have something to cheer about this season. The Giants gave that “phenom” Bart a shot last season and he failed miserably. Ramos deserves a shot, as he is ranked equally to Bart now.

    Dickerson, Ruf, Wade Jr., and AK’s “boy” Davis deserve shots for reserve roles. Slater, Basabe, Duggar and McCarthy they might as well cut right now, so they can look for other career gigs or reserve their normal spots on the taxi squad/minor league teams for the 100th or so time.


    Promote Ramos or it’s all DraftKings and minor league ball for me, insofar as following this uninteresting team.

    • djloo27 said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:47 am

      Welcome to the Grave Duggar’s list, Blade.
      Your weapons are powerless against his deadly shovel…

      • blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:51 am

        Shovel vs. gun? Okay, tell him to hunt me down with his shovel. I am in Pollock Pines. lol

      • Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:52 am

        Deadly shovel, lmao

    • chipower9 said, on March 8, 2021 at 2:43 pm

      LMAO. Uninteresting team? They aren’t even close to shaking-out the OD roster, and you think a guy who has played only a handful of minor league seasons is going to make the team “watchable?” You’re a smart baseball fan Blade, and a good friend, but I think you’re way off base here, brother.

      • blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 3:03 pm

        Thanks Chi . . . I just have better things to do than watch a 70, maybe 75 win team. I am totally into what Z is doing. I have said that consistently, but no way, no how, am I going to give my money to an ownership group that has players that should have been put out to pasture years ago (entire bore core). Conversely, I will attend minor league games that feature the Giants future. I just spoke to Snarkk, and like him, “baseball is the last thing on my mind.”

        Besides, now that I am fully vaccinated, I will be on the road soon (hopefully, by July, if what Paul sent me is accurate, i.e., Vietnam will open their “doors” to foreigners again).

  4. willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:31 am

    The “Entertainment” factor ratchets up quite a bit if you can win games and score runs, which Giants did last year. The roster Z has built is here to win games now and Kapler will manage it accordingly. He’s big on platoons and versatility of being able to move players around and create best lineup vs. pitching match ups.

    Cursory look at difference of what Ramos did in second season at A ball vs. 25 games of AA per fangraphs:
    BB pct almost equal, K% rose from 25% to 31%.
    Iso power fell slightly from .194 to .179
    BABIP went from high of.385 to more pedestrian (and facing better defensive players in bigger yards) .339
    BA dropped 64 points, as did OB. Slugging vs. better pitching etc. dropped 79 points.

  5. gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:43 am

    Giving a roster spot to a hot young prospect/talent just isnt the Giants way and dont see Heliot breaking camp with the big league team. But no doubt he will be up by the summer as this will be 10 games out by June 1…Vosler I think will be the lock for left-handed bat on the bench and expect Solano, Ruff and Slater are the other locks with Casali as the backup catcher. Does that leave one extra bat for the bench and is that the Gravest Grave Duggar’s spot??? A back-up solid glove to back up Dubon or maybe adding another lefty to the random line-up makes sense…

    • gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:44 am

      Then Heliot could see time once Dickerson, Slater or the Grave Duggar inevitably get hurt..

      • gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:51 am

        I got Flores as the starting 1b fully expecting Belt wont be on healthy by the start of the season. So once Belt is back then the Duggar may be in trouble or maybe he slips in for one of the forthcoming injured three…

      • djloo27 said, on March 8, 2021 at 12:19 pm

        Wilmet and Barrels could be highly sought after at the deadline.
        Not that either would bring back much…

  6. Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:55 am

    how’s he supposed to show us he can hit major league pitching if he’s not given a chance to face it? Ronald Acuna had 1002 minor league at bats. Ramos has had 1012. Next.

    • willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 11:21 am

      see Bart–and Bart did lot better than Ramos off AA pitching plus whatever he learned the hard way last year. the rookie league stuff you can’t count. And any comparisons btw one of a kind Acuna and Ramos get you laughed out of room. fangraphs has him as 61st best rated prospect and behind Bart, as 50FV. If you really believe he can go from alt site BS hitting off our own scrubinis every day to hitting ML pitching I give up.

      from May 1 he’ll be with minor league team at some level, and after couple months we’ll see Now, n effing way.

  7. Carstie Clausen said, on March 8, 2021 at 9:04 am

    If Ramos is still lighting up the pitching in the last ten days to a week of S.T. when the roster pitchers are in there for half the time or more; THEN maybe the brass will feel compelled. Ten dingers spaced throughout the Arizona experience would raise some eyebrows.

  8. blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 9:24 am

    Willie, why are you always looking backwards? Ramos has 3 things going for him: 1. A pedigree (a family of athletes, e.g., bro is in Rangers system and another bro is a soccer player . . . #1 round draft choice); 2. Confidence – “I wish I could play in the big leagues in April,” Ramos said; and, 3. Don’t downplay “alternate site” instruction last season – I suggest that it was just as beneficial, as he probably got more individualized training. While he didn’t get any official game action in 2020, he focused on handling off speed pitches, maintaining patience and sticking to a game plan according to one scouting report I read.

    I get it that the odds are that the 21-year-old outfielder won’t likely make his MLB debut until the summer at the earliest, but you are FLAT WRONG that he has zero chance to join the Giants after spring training . . . or why even have spring training and competition for positions? So, I agree with you that he’ll probably be in Sacramento or another minor league team; but if he continues to perform in spring training and is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best outfielder and doesn’t get promoted, I will be very disappointed in the Giants.

    • willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 11:27 am

      Because there are so many OF ahead of him in camp that have already played ML ball. Sf isn’t Pirates and scrambling to win 50 games. Z and Kapler want to win right now, even if you’re assured they can’t and won’t and they aren’t going to fill ML roster in front of fanbase with bunch of wannabe kids.
      The alt site can only do so much. what I read is sometimes they hardly played at all depending on how many pitchers/catchers were available. Level of quality had to be low and no substitute for real game experience at all.
      Give the kid a few months to see how he looks at whatever minor level he goes too, then they will have better idea of what he can and can’t do.

  9. James said, on March 8, 2021 at 9:55 am

    I’d maybe rather see Ramos than Ruf or Slater, who both played well last year, but not as an everyday replacement for the LF platoon. I’ll be thrilled if Heliot ever puts up numbers close to Yaz’s or Dickerson’s. Too bad he’s not a CFer.

    • blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 10:01 am

      Huh? He is a CF . . . Whether he ends up there is another question (likely will be a corner outfielder is my take).

      • James said, on March 8, 2021 at 10:21 am

        Projected CFer.

      • xoot said, on March 8, 2021 at 10:51 am

        He is big. He has an arb clock waiting to start too.

  10. unca_chuck said, on March 8, 2021 at 10:41 am

    This will all play out according to how the Bour corps(e) plays out of the gate. If the Dead Boys play dead, then I see Heliot getting an early call-up. If Crawfish starts out scuffling defensively and batting .213, they will bring up Luciano for a taste.

    I mean, is anyone in the front office really thinking that they have built a contender? Do they even care? The answer really doesn’t even matter. The point here is they will tread water while they see what happens with the vets. Everyone is jizzing over the return of Posey, and sure, I’m a bit excited to see of he has more than edge of the grass power, but even still, this is a huge transition year, and they certainly can mix the kids in with the vets as they get cast off, or develop mystery injuries.

    • James said, on March 8, 2021 at 11:12 am

      I think FO is interested in seeing how much mileage they can get out of the current strategy. The roster isn’t going to suddenly one day exclusively comprise 22-year old hot shots and glamorous free agents.

      • willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 11:31 am


      • Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 12:15 pm

        it’s not either/or. Just add ONE 21 year old. Don’t you guys get tired of watching these boring ass 30+ year olds slodge their way through games?

      • chipower9 said, on March 8, 2021 at 3:02 pm

        I do get tired of watching 30 YO retreads, but I also know the reality of how the Giants run things. Sure, there is a chance that Heliot makes the OD roster, but I think it is a long-shot at best. Just being real vs. being hopeful.

    • unca_chuck said, on March 8, 2021 at 11:23 am

      If the vets are horrible, say Hunter Pence horrible, they will have no choice but to jettison them. If Crawfish is batting .215 in late July, the roar from the fans will be deafening. He WILL be the next vet to go if he creeps out of the grave to start the year.

      • djloo27 said, on March 8, 2021 at 12:13 pm

        The thing with Craw is he’s so damn streaky, you can never be too sure.
        The other thing the Brandon’s have in their favor is their first rate defense…

    • Carstie Clausen said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:22 pm

      Luciano callup before September is most unlikely as he is very young and has not done well vs mediocre ST pitching to date.

  11. djloo27 said, on March 8, 2021 at 11:18 am

    And they only have 11,000 tix to sell, right?

  12. Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 12:17 pm

    The Giants brass don’t think much of their fan base. They think it’s exclusively comprised of the Facebook housewife crowd. I’m sure Baer is terrified of what will happen when Posey, Belt, Craw etc….are finally gone. The truth is, nothing will happen. Because the fan base is much more than just FB housewives.

    • blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 12:43 pm

      Spot on Flav . . . “They think it’s exclusively comprised of the Facebook housewife crowd.”

      . . . and a few Flappers.

  13. Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 12:18 pm

    If Ramos comes up and sucks like Bart what is the big deal? Just send him down and trot Slater out there or whatever. And starting the arb clock isn’t as important as it used to be with the way arb years are getting bought out now like they never used to before.

    • Carstie Clausen said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:24 pm

      Yeah, high-end prospects–should they even come close to living up to their potential–aren’t likely to be dangling on that arb clock.

  14. blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 12:40 pm

    “Sf isn’t Pirates and scrambling to win 50 games.” Willie’s total misinformation and slur toward the Pirates.

    So, I decided to go back to 2017, essentially this is when the Giants began to stink up the joint, having their last hurrah in 2016 (i.e., playoffs):


    Pirates: 19-41 (.317)
    Giants: 29-31 (.483)


    Pirates: 69-93 (.426)
    Giants: 77-85 (.475)


    Pirates: 82-79 (.509)
    Giants: 73-89 (.451)


    Pirates: 75-87 (.463)
    Giants: 64-98 (.395)


    Pirates 4 year record: 245-300

    Giants 4 year record: 243-303

    . . . lol

  15. willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 1:01 pm

    Current Giants certainly aren’t the Pirates of today, the worst team in all baseball, and they weren’t last year either at 29-31. No projections remotely comp Giants to Pittsburgh. If that’s your opinion, so be it.
    Being a young athletic ballplayer and high draft pick means zilch–Billy Hamilton was 3 sport star in HS but is about done as ML ballplayer, while Darin Ruf is not. I’m not polishing HOF plaque or comparing him to R Acuna over Ramos one day in ST.

    Speaking of yesterday, couple things not reported here amidst all the gloating. LaMonte Wade also homered and stole a bag while adding to versatility and playing 1b. Shea also said of Glass D and his bomb, “…a significant moment for the OF who opened camp with 6 strikeouts in 8 ABs.”

    • blade3colorado said, on March 8, 2021 at 1:09 pm

      No, I had NO opinion about the Pirates. You’re the one that said they were “. . . scrambling to win 50 games.” That is outrageously untrue of the Pirates, much less any MLB team. Tell me who else is scrambling for 50 wins???

      • James said, on March 8, 2021 at 3:35 pm

        A 317 winning percentage does equal 51 Ws over 162, although it is pretty rare to be that bad over consecutive seasons.

      • djloo27 said, on March 8, 2021 at 4:02 pm

        I doubt WillieD meant “50” literally…

  16. unca_chuck said, on March 8, 2021 at 1:47 pm

    Still, go back 2 years and you have 88-134 (.396) for the Buccos. 106-116 (.477) for Los Gigantes.

    We are trending up. They are trending down.

  17. unca_chuck said, on March 8, 2021 at 2:03 pm

    Crawfish is the next man out. If he sucks, he’s gone.

  18. Winder said, on March 8, 2021 at 2:15 pm

    I thinks it’s gonna be a difficult path to .500 ball no matter who we throw out there. We will probably feast on a few team and stink it up with a few also. This year is still all about the money.

  19. chipower9 said, on March 8, 2021 at 2:46 pm

    I knew this shit was coming as soon as GD hit a home run. LMOA. I’m glad you guys have fun with him, as I will be VERY surprised if he makes the OD roster.

    RE: Ramos – I will also be VERY surprised if that happens. He could force the issue, but I seriously doubt that happens. I think the best he gets is a late season call-up.

  20. James said, on March 8, 2021 at 3:40 pm

    Flavor, I’d be interested in seeing how Ramos does on the ML roster, but not at the expense of Dickerson PAs. AD is not boring, even if he’s an unhip 30+. Who doesn’t stay? If Ruf is out, then Ramos could take over his platoon. I think Yaz is an everyday player in RF. Maybe Ramos could take some of Dubon’s PAs in CF. I agree with others that this seems an unlikely scenario, and that Ramos comes up after injuries or bad play from the incumbents.

    • Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 4:01 pm

      yeah, I don’t want him snaring any at bats from The Dick either. I don’t see why Dubon should be guaranteed of anything especially if Ramos is the real deal now like I expect he could be

  21. djloo27 said, on March 8, 2021 at 3:55 pm

    I think the fans that want Heliot now are rightfully envious of guys like Acuna and Tatis.
    They want one of their own and he’s the logical choice…

    • Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 4:03 pm

      the thing we need to check ourselves on is, not all these guys are going to hit. KNBR keeps hyping the kids like “they’re coming.” uh, some will some won’t. We’d be lucky if ONE of them was a superstar. Likely most will flame out.
      I think Ramos and obviously Lucky are the most likely. But who knows, until they come up here nobody knows what they’ll do. Bart seems to be trending down who would have predicted that after he was drafted? And didn’t we draft another catcher last year in the 1 or 2 round?

      • gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:03 pm

        We drafted Bailey…I thought when we did last year that may have been a reflection by the org about Bart’s upside.

  22. unca_chuck said, on March 8, 2021 at 4:11 pm

    My whole point is I don’t think Farhan gives a flying fuck about Crawfish and the Bore Core. Well, except Posey.

    The rest are on notice. If Belt comes back and tweaks an eyelid, misses 3 more weeks, hits .224 until July 15, and shows little power, then I think Farhan will cut his ass. Same with Longo. They have enough bodies to cover the spots for those guys.

    • Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 4:25 pm

      i’ll believe it when I see it. And Baer is still influencing things don’t kid yourself just because he stepped down from his role. If Z pulls the trigger and cuts one of the Bore Core I’ll tip my cap to you for calling it March 8 I just don’t think he’s got the sack (or the green light) to do it.

      • gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:05 pm

        He certainly will never cut Longoria with him under contract next year. Both Belt and Crawford played better last year as the season progressed and think as an org they will be hard pressed not to give both that leeway in their out year…I have given up a couple years ago about their trade value…

      • James said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:12 pm

        One thing UC’s prediction has going for it is that by mid-July there’ll only be 2.5 months left on the Brandon contracts. If they perform as shitty as some anticipate, it’s conceivable Z sees a major upside to giving others the playing time, and he could hand one or both the “freedom” to lend their veteran, 3 in 5 savvy to a contender.

  23. gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:09 pm

    Flav, your arguments for Heliot starting the season are well reasoned but you know the Giants under Farhan or under Sabean/Evans never ever would give a 21 year old a chance to start the season on the big league roster as the Braves did the rational thing with Acuna for a team going nowhere a couple years ago. The whole service time clock has more value to mgmt than us fans who want to see new blood…

    • gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:10 pm

      I also hope Posey has a good rebound year making him highly sought after as a trade candidate before the deadline…we need an upper tier arm…

    • James said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:17 pm

      The Braves won the division in 2018.

      • djloo27 said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:48 pm

        Details, details, details…

      • gianthead said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:05 pm

        And??? Heliot going to make this team a division winner??? I think not. And my point is that it aint in the Giants mgmt DNA…not whether it is a smart decision or not.

      • James said, on March 8, 2021 at 6:40 pm

        The implication of your post was that as a team going nowhere — like the 2018 Braves — SF should play Ramos. The comparison was bogus.

    • Flavor said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:21 pm

      I’m not giving up the dream that management stops obsessing about the service time clock, not with so many young guys getting their arb years bought out these days.

      • xoot said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:49 pm

        Depends on the player. Low level guys this winter, who cares. If Ramos comes up and rakes a bit but otherwise doesn’t impress much (cf Solano) an extra year on the arb clock could make him more marketable. Etc. May be a factor, may be slight. I don’t know. Things will change next year with the new Cba and revived revenue. Or failures thereof.

  24. willedav said, on March 8, 2021 at 5:47 pm

    Dubon is here to play CF and backup Crawford at SS. Last season he started 33 games there and during September stretch run for playoffs he played almost every day somewhere, getting over 70 ABs.
    by contrast, Glass D got 8, the entire month.

    He had only few bombs (and steals) and wound up with .725 OPS but remember bar is lower offensively for guys who play CF and SS. Teams are willing to accept lower than average hitting for superior D at those positions. It is of course interesting Z has many different ways for Kapler to go regarding CF. See how it plays out–who starts season off might not be same guys getting more PT by seasons end.

    Totally agree with your 4:03 Flav–until they do something at ML level, not rocking anyone. Most of the better guys have yet to even play A ball, which is light years away from MLB. Great year to follow their progress but, at an appropriate level as decided by upper mgmt–Z GM and farm directors. No more Free Bart nonsense on prospect in way over his head. It sure didn’t help team win any more games.

  25. xoot said, on March 8, 2021 at 7:47 pm

    Interesting Shea article in the chron about Jose Alvarez getting his testicles crushed by a 105 mph LD last year. That’ll put you on the injured list.

    • alleykat69 said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:27 pm

      Man that’s a real ball breaker deal he must of signed for…

    • xoot said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:34 pm

      I bet kruk and kuip will be compelled to talk about it all season.

  26. zumiee said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:10 pm

    Both baseball magazines I have pick the Giants to finish 4th in the division this season, above the Rockies.

  27. mrsprtdude said, on March 8, 2021 at 8:24 pm

    Why is everyone assuming the 2 Brandon’s will suck? Both were good last season. Especially Belt who had an OPS+ of 142. By contrast Bellinger was 110. In his MVP year the year before it was 144.

    • James said, on March 8, 2021 at 10:38 pm

      I don’t assume it. Over his career, Belt has had only one other 50 game stretch like 2020. Another way to look at his year, for those who discount it because of the shortened season: if he had played another 100 games with a subpar 742 OPS (his career low number for a full year), he still would have finished around 830. I’d take that in 2021. Crawford has had only one truly bad year since 2014, and, like Belt, he easily could have put up avg. (for him) season numbers over the entire season, even if the stats in the other 100 games weren’t as good.

  28. snarkk said, on March 8, 2021 at 10:58 pm

    50 years ago tonight, the Fight of the Century.
    Smokin’ Joe v. Ali at MSG.
    Truly one of the greatest American sporting events in modern times.
    It may have been the single greatest celebrity-gathering event, too, in modern times.
    I may not remember properly, but I think to see it, you had to go to theaters, on closed circuit pay per view.
    It certainly wasn’t on live TV, no cable then.
    It lived up to the hype, and then some…

    • snarkk said, on March 8, 2021 at 11:30 pm

      The full HBO special on the fight is on youtube. A bit old, but very good.
      The fight itself is shown in important parts the last 20 minutes or so.
      The both went to the hospital after it.
      If that fight had gone one more round, one of them might had died in there…

      • djloo27 said, on March 9, 2021 at 3:49 am

        Manila might have done both of them in…

      • djloo27 said, on March 9, 2021 at 3:53 am

        No one ever says a word about the rematch in ’74.
        It was a yawner…

    • djloo27 said, on March 9, 2021 at 3:47 am

      You’re right, Snarkk. It wasn’t even on radio.
      And even years later, the quality of the cc was often fuzzy at best…

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