A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

The Dust Settled. What Now?

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on August 5, 2022

I turned the radio on just in time to hear Miller say “and that’s 8 straight losses to LA, the first time that’s happened since 1979!”. If I heard that right, and I might not have, that’s wild. Both LA and SF were under .500 in ’79.

Tolbert and Copes were ragging on Giants fans on their show saying “I don’t remember anyone complaining about the off season moves.” And to some extent that’s very true. There was really no FA I wanted them to go get and even looking back on it now there’s no one I think Z missed on—or anyone who would have made a difference this year.

Re-signing Craw and Belt even had to get done. I wasn’t excited about it but I understood it. Shit, Craw had us all convinced that Kap’s team of coaches completely re-invented baseball for him. And while Bryant certainly hasn’t been missed he was productive last year.

And if you look at it that way, that they lost 44% of their hitter production just off those 4 guys not being here (including Posey, obviously). And you can say what happened to the role guys? But guys like Estrada, who was a great find, were never supposed to be playing every day. That’s not who they are.

So when you boil all that down the only thing I’m upset about is that Farhan didn’t trade Rodon. He would have been a nice #2 for a playoff team and I refuse to believe there was no value to be had there.

Even if you say “well SD hasn’t won anything despite all their bold moves”–that is true. But one thing they have done is given their fan base something to care about. God, how could you NOT want to go to the yard and see guys like Machado and Soto and a healthy Tatis?

If Farhan does anything different going forward he has to understand he’s got to add players the fans will care about watching. This is entertainment at the end of the day. Nobody is coming to the yard to watch Estrada and Wilmet hit and nothing else, I don’t care what their record is.

LA and SD have separated themselves from the rest of the NL West. That is fact.

Where do the Giants go from here? They aren’t catching up by rummaging through the dumpster in the alley.


44 Responses

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  1. blade3colorado said, on August 5, 2022 at 6:48 am

    One of your best posts ever, i.e., well thought out, measured (not hysteric), and acknowledged what Z did in the off season was satisfactory. However, most importantly, you made the reader (or at least me) consider a different viewpoint . . . Specifically, “if Farhan does anything different going forward he has to understand he’s got to add players the fans will care about watching. This is entertainment at the end of the day. Nobody is coming to the yard to watch Estrada and Wilmet hit and nothing else, I don’t care what their record is.”

    Again, this post is one of your best.

    • Flavor said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:43 am

      thanks. My anger over Z’s deadline inaction has passed. Honestly, with this being the finale for the Flap I’d like to find the energy for more posts like today’s but honestly it’s one of the reasons I’m shutting her down at the end of the season.

  2. willedav said, on August 5, 2022 at 6:49 am

    Baggs said same thing yesterday, “If you’re in the business of selling tickets to a show you better recognize it.” In same quote he retweets about Cronenworth saying after Pads win at home on deadline night “…that was probably the best atmosphere I’ve ever seen.”

  3. unca_chuck said, on August 5, 2022 at 7:36 am

    Yeah, they were trying to rebuild through the attrition of the bore core. They did that of course to keep the casual fans happy and to replace the old guys incrementally. But that went horribly awry when the bore core all had their best seasons at the same time in a few seasons and they won 107 games. Posey did his part and retired, but Z and Co were cornered in the position to re-sign Belt and Crawfish. If last year had been like this I think Belt would be gone.

    The dumpster diving hasn’t worked out, the pen is a shambles, and the defense is atrocious. And the sore core looks to be down to Crawford next season. The AAA prospects are still Sabevans trash and AA doesn’t look much better.

    This is season 5 of the Farhan rebuild and we are pretty much nowhere. There are exciting guys in high A ball, but they are 2025 material. YEah, they lost a year to COVID and Manfred dismantling the minor leagues, and yeah, it takes time to turn around the barren landscape left by Evans, but by then we will be 8 years in and hoping against hope we have 2-3 bona fide players from that crop of Farhan draftees to build around.

    Wilderness years indeed.

  4. djloo27 said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:13 am

    Rebuild #1 for Z was over in year 4 when they won 107 games and made a “go for it” deadline deal.
    Fluke or not, his 5 year plan succeeded a year early.
    His mission going into this season was to remain a top team and try to get it over the hump.
    Plenty of blame to go around for that failure…

  5. willedav said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:34 am

    “Compelling” was word Baggs used. Obviously no one like that on current iteration, other than Rodon. K n K and Slush said Estrada Joc Crawford all due back this weekend, maybe Longoria too…wonder who will not be here. I’m about ready to see Ramos over Yermin, Estrada as regular SS, plus Vosler/Villar Davis playing regularly and not being PH for in 5h inning. Old guys had their shot and look where team is now.

  6. willedav said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:46 am

    Story on MLBTR details ways in which players still can be moved/ acquired before Sept 1. Giants picked up Jose Quintana that way last year and as example team with worst overall record (Nats) has first shot at Dinelson Lamet whom Brewers just DFA’d after he came over from SD in Hader deal So Giants could still cull some of the herd if they so choose.

  7. snarkk said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:51 am

    The lack of MLB-usable players at Sac is astonishing to me. It’s as if it doesn’t exist. The plug-n-play players are mostly coming from the dumpsters of other organizations…

  8. Winder said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:06 am

    Pretty comprehensive article in the Athletic on many of our minor league players. My take on it is that we are 2-3 years away from the team the FO envisions. What Z does in the meantime is anyone’s guess. Things just didn’t work out this year. After all is said and done we should definitely have some bigtime money available to get some FA’s in the next couple of years. With the core off the books it’s time to seriously rebuild.

  9. James said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:20 am

    Thanks for writing this, Flavor. If you wanted to stretch, you could even give him the benefit of the doubt on Rodon. You know that as a baseball fan, he was no more optimistic than any of us after that first loss to the Dodgers right before the deadline. I believe him when he says he was offered grade B material for Rodon. He said, fuck it, we may have a 1 in a 100 chance of turning it around with a miraculous late burst. I’ll take that over the slightly better odds that any of the minor leaguers on offer will turn into a star.

  10. blade3colorado said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:22 am

    Flav, regarding your 8:43am post, no thanks necessary. There’s a word in recovery (alcohol and drugs), called “trudge.” Within that context, it is usually used this way . . . “Trudge the Road to Happy Destiny.” The proper definition is “Trudge: To walk slowly and with heavy steps, typically because of exhaustion or harsh conditions.”

    In many ways, it describes what you do daily here – waking up early; thinking of ideas to post a thread; researching the content within the potential thread; posting the thread; responding to comments on your post, as well as other hot takes from us or yourself; maintaining this site when issues occur with WordPress; and, “rinse and repeat” the next day ad infinitum. WOW!

    No idea how you have done this for so many years, but it is very clear you have been trudging along with great purpose. Consequently, the “thanks” is all mine, as you have earned a well deserved break many times over. I am grateful for that. Again, thank you.

    • djloo27 said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:54 am

      Perfectly stated, Blade.
      Flavor has been nothing short of amazing…

    • Flavor said, on August 5, 2022 at 10:12 am

      thanks. You know, I think I’m just in a better place in my life than i was years ago. Definitely happier. I think I used the Flap (at least early on) as a way to divert from my problems/feelings. Also, this has just gone on way too long. Nothing lasts forever. I am not deleting the site, just shutting down comments/posts. It can be like an online museum. Also, who knows, I could always fire it back up some day if I choose to

  11. Bozo said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:31 am

    Estrada is a keeper, could be the starting 2B or a valuable dude on the bench. Webb and Junis both look like top of the rotation guys and if Bart keeps doing what he’s doing could be a .260 guy with pop that looks to me like he handles the pitchers well (has a good arm too). I’d love to see Wilmer back but doubt he’ll come back. After that it’s kind of a coin toss for me.

    Our #1 rated prospect, Luciano (20) is at high A ball, depending on what he does in the offseason and with his skill set, could probably jump to AAA to start next year. Doubt they keep him at SS, probably move to 3B or a corner OF spot.

    #2 Harrison (20) is doing well at AA. Hitters are just hitting .171 against the kid. Who knows a good spring and maybe he makes the jump.

    #3 Matos (20) is having a tough time in high A, probably start in AA next year, would be my guess.

    #4 Bender (22) still in San Jose, good stuff mostly FB and slider, could get switched to a BP guy or maybe part of a trade package.

    #5 Ramos (22) hasn’t done well at AAA, will he be a bust or ST phenom?

    Will Wilson has dropped down to #20, he’s the guy we ate Cozart’s $12.7 contract to get. He has some pop but hasn’t hit consistently at any level. He’s at AAA now but I doubt the dude makes the jump at SS probably ends up a utility guy or a frequent bus rider.

    Looks to me like Zaidi/Harris will need to be busy wheeling and dealing this offseason.

    • xoot said, on August 5, 2022 at 10:56 am

      Thanks. How about Auerbach? The AI in the front office must be spitting out great reports about his versatility.

      And Dabovich — he blew everyone away in AA (0.90 WHIP, terrific BB/SO ratio), but it looks like he’s having trouble in AAA, facing more experienced, more selective hitters maybe (all three of those numbers look bad right now).

      • Bozo said, on August 5, 2022 at 12:07 pm

        I think they would like Aurbach to pitch a little besides playing the OF, Inf and catching. And Dabovich was looking like a shutdown pitcher until he wasn’t.
        Except for Wilson, I only went with the top 5 rated, I only mentioned Wilson because I think at one time he was considered a top 5 or a top 10 guy but now he’s at #20.

  12. mrsprtdude said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:54 am

    Great post Craig. I was thinking of the Flap when I saw the score. An amazing run for 13 seasons…, but going out with some level of excitement doesn’t seem in the cards.

    Made smile how odd it is thinking of the lack of excitement by all of us hard core flappers hit me almost as much as the actual team being lousy! Cheers all..

  13. James said, on August 5, 2022 at 10:12 am

    Belt, Crawford, and Longoria had 1200 PAs in 2021 with a collective 900 OPS. If they somehow manage to sign two star free agents with the ability to replace that production, then there’s a chance the Giants will at least be watchable in 23.

  14. xoot said, on August 5, 2022 at 10:46 am

    Forbes annual article on mlb finance says Giants are 5th most valuable franchise, at $3.5 billion. There’s also discussion of mlb’s many secondary revenue sources, including the ad patches we’ll see on unis. “MLB could generate more money from its jersey patches than the NBA because of baseball’s slower pace of play and longer schedule,” says one analyst. We’ll see more Pacifico-like ads in-game, too.

    The Braves put their new ballpark in the burbs in large part so they could build a huge mixed-used development next door to it — as the Giants have done and as the a’s are attempting to do (tho not in the burbs, obviously). Both the Giants and the a’s this year look like they care more about their real estate game than about baseball. How many other franchises are biz/residential real estate moguls now?

    One night last year, the Sac River Cats starting LU comprised ten guys — some option yo-yo types, some starters rehabbing — who all at some point had spent time on the 26 man roster. That overflowing roster dried up like Lake Shasta.

    • unca_chuck said, on August 5, 2022 at 4:57 pm

      To think that was Eddie D’s idea out in Hunter’s Point/Bayview with the Stick replacement. Not sure how that woulda gone, but I’m damn fucking sure I’d love the football stadium to be there rather than in the mudflats of Santa Great America.

      But I digress . . .

      It has been a hell of an entertaining run, Craig. Very very hard to believe that it has been what, 16 seasons since we all kinda coalesced at the Splash? 2006, right?

      Un fucking real

  15. alleykat69 said, on August 5, 2022 at 11:21 am

    Hey Craig that really was a great post my man!
    I suppose you realize that when you started the Flap blog it was 2010 and with it came or 1st W/S championship out of 3 .Just a Coincidence? maybe 🤔 but I think this Blog was lucky charm in winning 3 in 5! And getting that 1st one for long suffering Giants fans ( including many here) who like myself was questioning rather I would and everyone else would experience that ultimate moment of satisfaction of having that weight lifted off are shoulders was just an incredible!
    Yeah like you said Flavor , all good things come to an end, but the friendships created by your outstanding due diligence running the BEST BLOG IN BASEBALL ⚾️ and to all the very knowledgeable guys with great funny/sad stories over will last forever!! And that’s on you Craig by doing such a great job! And Btw Fuck LA forever!!!

    • djloo27 said, on August 5, 2022 at 11:28 am

      Awesome, Kat!

  16. willedav said, on August 5, 2022 at 12:19 pm

    hmmnn there are some .900 OPS guys (or near to it) who will be FAs in off season—Josh Bell and Brandon Drury in NL and Judge and R Devers in AL. Really only about half dozen .900 OPS guys total in each league, per B/R offensive leaders, though I guess that applies only to regulars with x amount of ABs.

    • djloo27 said, on August 5, 2022 at 12:40 pm

      A spending spree might be the only way to improve the team and ignite the bored to death fan base…

  17. willedav said, on August 5, 2022 at 12:42 pm

    Tolbert isn’t entirely correct, as I think most here wanted a RH OF with some pop and really wanted Giants to be in on Suzuki. Giants of course reduced to Ruf and Yermin in that regard.
    I think Unca was high on FA Starling Marte, who signed with Mets at 4 yrs/$78 and is having fine season with slash line .299/.346/.466 .813 OPS and 11 HRs. Interesting that 2021 (contract year) he stole 47 bags/caught 5, 2022 he has 12/caught 6. Marte is 33 and has played RF exclusively for Mets.

  18. sandog said, on August 5, 2022 at 1:23 pm

    I like the lead, Flav.
    I don’t think Z is big on punting seasons. I thought he should have punted before last year and look how that worked out. I think he feels he and his team are smart enough to put together a winning team in almost any circumstance, and after last year, he’s got my support unconditionally.
    I’m sure his feeling with Rodon was that he had a certain floor for an offer, and if he didn’t get that, he was gonna keep him—-and I fully support that. Especially with us on the fringes of the race.
    He could have said he would take highest bid, whatever it is, even if we get shitty value. I’m glad he didn’t look at it that way. I’d like to sell my electric guitar, but I’m not gonna let some fucker steal it for $50. I’ll sooner keep it and fake some AC/DC riffs on it every once in a while. That’s the way I roll.
    Glad to see your bit about free agents. Most of those guys have sucked, and I’m sure Schwarber wouldn’t have come to our shitty park for LH hitters, just like I think it’s the main reason we didn’t get Harper.
    All those dudes care about is hitting home runs. It is how they get paid, how they get publicity, probably how they measure their self worth LOL.
    There is no way they are coming to a park that so drastically fights against that.
    They have to fix that at some point and I think they will. I just wish they would do it asap.
    I don’t care about seeing the bay bridge or a slow ass barge with a bunch of rusty shipping containers on it.
    I’d rather have a fair ballpark in The Tenderloin than “great views” with ridiculous dimensions on the water.

    • xoot said, on August 5, 2022 at 1:55 pm

      The windows in the Giants’ Visa office tower (now visible on the tv) are sculpted to suggest the beautiful curve of a mainsail tacking up-wind. You can see real sails, too, out there on the bay with the “barges.” Not much $$$ to be made in the Tenderloin.

      • sandog said, on August 5, 2022 at 2:29 pm

        Oh, I’ve had some people approach me in the Tenderloin looking to make some money. Goods AND services!
        But that’s another story.
        I take your point. Fix triples alley and they can have their cake and eat it too.

      • xoot said, on August 5, 2022 at 4:47 pm

        ah, the street vendors. yeah.

  19. Macdog said, on August 5, 2022 at 6:21 pm

    Ruf hits 2-run double off RF fence in 1st Mets AB.

  20. unca_chuck said, on August 5, 2022 at 7:28 pm

    Good for him. Wow. He’s playing LF?

  21. unca_chuck said, on August 5, 2022 at 7:38 pm

    When did you guys start posting at the Splash? Or whatever the Chron’s blog was? I think it was 2006 for me iirc.

    • djloo27 said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:08 pm

      2007 for me, Chuck.
      A guy posting as Hawk was viciously on Twin wishing all kinds of sickness and death on him.
      I think even Twin’s daughter and/or son-in-law was posting, too.
      I thought at first that all the regulars actually knew each other.
      I really didn’t know where I was.
      I was just looking to chat with Giant fans on my first computer…

    • PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:32 pm

      I was first on something at the Chron back in the 2000 season, great season til they lost to the Mets in the divisional round. Maybe it was called the Splash at that point, don’t remember when it first was called that. Migrated to the Flap in ’09, I think it was. Yeah, Charlie, the Splash certainly had its share of… characters…..

      • PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:34 pm

        Oops, sorry Loo, you commented on the characters. Sorry, a bit meds-addled.

      • djloo27 said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:48 pm

        How are you coming along there, Paul?

      • PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on August 5, 2022 at 8:57 pm

        I just got home after 6 days at the hospital. I was suffering there more psychologically than physically, truly thought I was about to go completely nuts. I told them I needed to go home, and they let me go a couple days earlier than planned. It’s going to be a long haul, but doing ok, thanks. Just got word a former girlfriend and forever deep friend, Jenny Do, a VNmese living in San Jose, just died. She fought horrible cancers for years, still managed to run an orphanage over here. Feel so lucky I got to see her here just before my hernia surgery. Big sad hole in the heart. No surgery ever helps that ….

    • Bozo said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:02 pm

      I think I started posting after I moved out of SF in 08. Although I was reading the posts for a while before. that.

  22. Winder said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:04 pm

    06/07 I can’t remember. I had a lot of fun on the Splash. Some of those Giants teams were really frustrating.

  23. PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on August 5, 2022 at 9:09 pm

    I still remember one poster on the Chron back in 2000 named The Captain. Insufferable arrogance, but also funny as hell. Used to call the other Splashers (or whatever it was called pre-Splash) “undiapered monkeys”. He lived in NY, otherwise in hindsight I coulda thought he was TF before TF was TF…

    • Winder said, on August 5, 2022 at 10:35 pm

      There were a lot of characters on the splash and the insider. I enjoyed interaction between Twin and OSF a lot.

  24. willedav said, on August 6, 2022 at 6:24 am

    Some of those guys from Splash were something else. Loo mentioned Hawk, there was that guy Hanger who I believe Twin tracked down as some kind of criminal. Talked about Chicken Ranch in Nevada, yada yada. And of course the “Soph” person. Lot of fun to read through in those days.

  25. willedav said, on August 6, 2022 at 6:44 am

    Meanwhile, the more things change, etc. Dogs ended all suspense early vs. Manaea and Pads, Gonsoulin held them to 3 hits with 5 shutout innings and LA thrashed SD again, with Soto. I don’t care who they have, at some point Pads are going to have to beat LA to get anywhere. Nats did it in 2019 and Braves did it last year. Talk all you want about getting into expanded playoffs, but at some point you have to be able to knock LA out.

  26. moseszd said, on August 6, 2022 at 6:28 pm

    What I have noticed is that Zaidi doesn’t prize defense in his bargain-bin shopping. At -35 DRS, the Giants have the second worst DRS in the majors. At -52 routine-plays-made, they have the worst in the majors. And no matter how you cut it, it’s pretty obvious the defense is terrible.

    And there was too much reliance on, and sticking with, fundamentally flawed players like Wade Jr. who started hot but by the end of last season it was clear he had a giant hole in his swing and teams were exploiting it. And we traded Duggar away who is a terrible hitter, but at least can play defense, something Wade Jr. (who is also a terrible hitter) can’t do.

    The collapse really didn’t come as a surprise. To be honest last year was a fluke and before the season started I doubted we’d even have a winning record. So while 2021 was fun, it was the product of multiple mediocre and aging players having some of their best seasons in their careers. Or in the case of some of Zaidi’s juggled pieces, the players just spent a couple of months having serious hot-streaks, like Duggar, Wade, etc. neither of whom can hit consistently but hit very well for a couple of months.

    But there was no real talent base to fall back on if the hot-streaks stopped. And we’re seeing it. We’ve got a few good pitchers and a bunch old, collapsing vets and mediocrities.

    At this point, the only thing reasonably salvageable about the season is if they can establish Joey Bart.

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