Yesterday’s Press Conference, A Few Must Do’s and A Great Pic to End The Season
Kind of a weirdo news conference from Bochy and Sabean yesterday. Things that stuck out:
1) He nixed the idea of Hector Sanchez being ready and yet they never really took a look at him. Bochy talked about him not being able to do the *little things* and I’m down with that, I trust his assessment on catchers. But when did he assess him? In practice?
2) Both Sabean and Bochy alluded to Huff not coming to camp in shape. I’m sorry, but this didn’t get explained enough. I can dig the Panda thing, he came in fat and got fatter and finally couldn’t play baseball anymore at the end of the 2010 season. But Huff looks exactly the same as he did in 2010 as he did this year. Was this just 100% a cardiovascular issue? What would that have to do with him hitting 46 million ground balls to second base? And if he wasn’t doing something in the offseason to prepare why wasn’t he doing it during the season? I guess what I’m asking is, what did Aubry Huff NOT do last Winter to set himself up for this horrible season? There weren’t enough questions asked about this *not being in shape* thing….
3) Sabean used Pill as an example for why Belt wasn’t ready. I used the same example last week to explain why Pill *looked* like the better prospect right now. But Pill isn’t a prospect and that’s an example from Sabean that concerns me. He is on record as saying Pill isn’t a prospect, he’s a filler guy who they brought up to reward him for his two big RBI year’s in the minors. And now he’s using Pill as a reference to Belt, their top position player in the minors? That makes no sense. He went on to say that he thinks the Giants are going too fast with these guys through the system. Sorry, but putting on the breaks on all the prospects is dumb. You bring guys up who are ready, they aren’t all on the same calendar. Belt got a chance and so did Crawford. They weren’t ready. Apparently, Hector wasn’t either though I don’t know how the Hell they figured that out with Whitey and Stewey getting most of the at bats in September. That doesn’t mean that ALL the prospects need to be brought along slowly………
4) I don’t pay a lick of attention to press conferences, everyone lies. But it’s interesting to try to read through the BS and try to sort out the semi-truths from the all-out lies. I’m not optimistic about the off season. I think Sabean is going to fall back on Posey and Franchez to fix this and that’s a huge mistake considering Freddy is a glass tiger and Posey is coming off a horrific ankle injury. Sadly, he might not have any money from the *rainy day guys* to sign anyone anyway. That could turn out to be a saving grace. The Free Agent market, outside of a few of the guys we’ve discussed, really sucks.
I have a feeling that this off season is going to have me doing a slow burn…….
A few moves (or non-moves) I’d like to see this year:
1) Don’t trade Dirrrrrty. At his lowest value and with us in huge need of a #5, it would be a mistake to trade him. Hope for the best with him. Surkamp will always be there if need be, laying in the weeds……
2) I think we have a better chance of signing Santa Claus than Beltran. Therefore we need to either fix the lead off spot or put another bat behind/in front of Posey. One of those things HAS to get down. I’d sign Josh Willingham to play LF and bat in the middle of our LU or sign Coco Crisp to play CF. I am far more interested in Willy than Crispy. I’d take the Crisp from 2010 with Oakland, much less enamored with the Crisp from 2011. But he is the only CF leadoff guy I can see on the FA market–his health is my biggest concern about him.
3) Find a back up catcher. A guy like Doumit, if the Pirates don’t pick up his option, would be fine. No more Stew-Whitey jibber jabber….
4) If they don’t sign Crisp find a way to sign Rollins. I don’t really see how a deal like this gets down, it’s more hope than anything else. He’d be much more expensive than Crisp and more years but would be much better at the top of the LU and if the Giants find a way to give JR a 3-4 year deal than maybe they start looking at the shortstops in their system as trade bait instead of *future star* guys. You can never have enough trade bait….
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
The free agent sluggers we know Giants won’t go after like Pujols and Fielder. So you need to make a deal to get one. Willingham is just not thew answet.
Yes, if you dangle Sanchez, and don’t get decent offers, then of course keep him till people get desparate. But the Marlins opening up a new field needs pitching upgrades, a puerto rican lefty with their new venezuelan manager would have increased interest.
Plus, you are going to have teams like the White and Red Sox desperate for pitching help and everyone with baseball knowledge knows Sanchez has the stuff of potential greatness.
The Sabean-Bochy handling of young players is not a great track record. You can see that Belt has the best swing of anyone in the system and I think he is a potentially more potent bat than Posey.
Willingham had a stellar season in Oakland as he belted 29 home runs and 98 RBI for the A’s. Both those are career highs for Willingham. However, he is frickin’ 32 years old. He also struck out 150 times this year. Do we really want another .246 batting average (his BA in 2011) in our lineup? This cat is injury prone too (injured his back in last game this year and has been injured off and on throughout his career). Sorry, I am not convinced. He will also be looking for a big pay day.
Crisp is even more injury prone, but I like him more than Willingham because of his speed and batting average. That being said, he is 31 years old and probably wont steal 40 plus bases again (as he did this year). I think Sabean and Bochy were playing “poker” yesterday with other clubs by saying that Sanchez was going to be in the rotation next year, i.e., raising the ante whereby clubs must provide some real value if they want Sanchez in a trade.
Don’t fall in love with any of our players . . . Look at each one like you would a stock or other investment. We were out of the playoffs this year, so I think Sabean will do his due diligence and listen to all offers, as he should do.
Post mortem on this season – Considering the Giants scored just 570 runs while giving up 578, it was amazing they finished second in the National League West at 86-76. That’s only six victories fewer than the 92 they won on the way to last year’s World Series championship.
In 1985, the Giants scored only 556 runs – and lost 100 games.
What a terrible waste it was of World Series-caliber pitching by Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Ryan Vogelsong, Madison Bumgarner, Sergio Romo and many others. My point is that the Giants definitely can’t hold pat and must upgrade the offense during the off-season.
Blade– I admit, I’ve always been a Willingham proponent. I was talking up trading for him mid-season the year he hit two grand slams in the same game a couple of years ago. I know he’s 32 but he didn’t really get a legit start-the-year-as-a-starter until this year with the A’s. he’s a poor man’s guy, I like how he earned where he is now, nothing was ever given to him. And he DOES have power. For the right deal, I’d love to see him out there if LF….
Craig, you even admitted as much – The Free Agent market, outside of a few of the guys we’ve discussed, really sucks. I have a feeling that this off season is going to have me doing a slow burn . . . ”
If Willingham is targeted, I’m on board in lieu of the paucity of choices out there (as you pointed out in your blog opening). The Giants site had this blurb, “No realistic options exist within the organization. If Cody Ross and Andres Torres are re-signed, they’ll likely have to accept reserve roles. David DeJesus, Grady Sizemore and Coco Crisp are among the more intriguing names on the list of leadoff/center-field free agents.” I like the aforementioned insofar as I hope the Giants don’t rely on Torres or Ross, except for reserve roles. I also like Crisp and DeJesus, both are players that can hit for average, which is perfect for the Phone Park. What I don’t want is someone who hits a HR every 25 at bats and doesn’t do anything else. Giants have a big, big, big conundrum insofar as retaining an expensive pitching staff and finding reputable hitting in a “desert” of free agents. I think that one of the pitchers will be traded because I don’t see how they do it otherwise. The payroll is already maxed out, unless the “wise men” in the glass upper floors decide to spend some of that reserve fund. Ha.
Nice phrase….”the paucity of choices….”
Given the #5 starter options, I don’t see how you can trade J Sanchez. I don’t want to see any more of Surkamp (or Zito) starting, at least not for SF. wonder if they still think Runzler could start?
De Jesus didn’t hit for much avg this year, and Sizemore (whom I loved couple years ago) hasn’t been able to play much lately. Crisp runs well, but that’s about it. Andres runs well too, he just didn’t get on base enough or hit as well as the year before. Same with ross, who can play CF if needed. Willingham at least has been consistent .850 OPS guy who can get on base and hit with pop. Cuddyer is a defensive liability anywhere you play him, including 2b, and best years might be behind him.
All these guys have strengths and weaknesses…all have had decent seasons in the last few years, yet come with caveats. From what Sabes and Bochy said, it appears they are still unsure what to do exactly with Belt. Is he the starting LF and back up 1b, or the other way around? He has to figure in there somewhere.
I think Pill is intriguing. As a RH, he has some pop. I don’t care how he was rated or how old he is, if the guy can play then WTFN shove him in there? From all accounts, Sabes isn’t going to spend mega bucks on anything to improve the O much, and Pill seems as ready as anyone to contribute.
I said this a couple years ago…I’d really like to see SF get younger and more athletic. Just doesn’t appear that’s Sabes MO, and having won with a strong vet presence in the past, I doubt this leopard changes his spots.
From reading the Chronicle stories about the press ocnference and trying to read between the lines, they fortunately realize Belt is a premier defensive first basemen and it is a waste forcing him to play left instead of Huff. So Belt is going to be the starter at first until he losses his spot.
Willingham was better than I expected with the Nats, but I suspect an AL team with DH needs will be more willign to give Willingham more than he is probably worth or more than the Giants will be willing to offer…
The other interesting comment was saying Coco the Crisp has been dropping hints of wanting to play for the Giants…I now put the odds of signing him at 80%…mark my words…Bochy’s comment that Nate is the likely starting RFer was the shocker. Why are they even pretending than that they are going to make a play for Beltran. I think it is also likely that Cuddyer will be signed on the cheap and maybe in a platoon with Huff, I think that makes it less likely they will then trade J Sanchez for a slugger, but he is eventually getting traded for fiscal reasons. Sanchez is penciled as the #5 starter, I think Vogelsong has shown that you can find back-end rotation guys on the cheap and pitching at ATT probably enhances their abilities…so I think the following lineup is looking like a decent possibility, but I think it lacks the big hitter that we still need:
1) Coco the Crisp – CF
2) Franchez – 2B
3) Panda – 3B
4) Posey – C
5) Cuddyer/Huff – LF
6) Belt – 1B
7) Nate – RF
8) Crawford – SS (lack of better options)
Bench – Stewart, Huff, Fontenot, Keppinger and Torres
This lineup looks just a tad better than last year’s…still need a basher…I guess Willingham would be a better option than Cuddyer/Huff, but I still dont think that happens…
Note to Pawlie…what an odd confluence of Charles Dickens yesterday. I flip over to that awful Hereafter Clint Eastwood movie on HBO last night and not only does the Matt Damon character tour Dickens’ home, they make a reference to his unfinished Drood and then I found out that they are adapting Simmons’ book Drood into a movie, so deifnitely read the book when you can. It is a lengthy novel, sort of Simmons’ style.
The first book I read of his, “The Terror” is so unebleivably good, you all must read it…
Reading is obsolete. Just give the pics.
I posted that pic of Bryan and his son yesterday. It’s not like that gives me rights, but you might mention it…
I’d be very surprised if Pill made the team. Did he even get a hit on anything but a “get it in fastball”? I’d now expect Belt to be the first baseman and Huff in left. I’ve had some misgivings about Belt but even with his struggles-9 HR in 187 AB is impressive. Very real shot at 4 hitters with 20+ HR…
Younger and more athletic? I expect Posey, Belt, Sandoval, and Schierholtz to be starting next year. Possible are Crawford and Pill. 2008 opening day starting LU was:
Dave Roberts, Aurilia, Winn, Moina, Durham, Rowand, Castillo, Bocock…
There has been a huge and totally misguided panic over the 2011 offense. As has recently been pointed out- of the guys in the opening day LU, everyone but Huff missed at least 25% of the season.
CrisP? He’s ‘decent”. His best year was 6 years ago, the only year he even approached Vungo’s 2010.The point is not that I’d prefer Andres, but Coco, other than his SB totals, is not a very good leadoff hitter now. .314 OBP- in his yearof great suckitude, Torres was .312. As I’ve said before- Brown will open in AA. If he hits, he’ll be the starting CFer here by the end of 2012. Ross and Torres can keep the seat warm.. more coming
Crisp is at best in a fantasy league, I dont disagree may not be the perfect solution as a real leadoff hitter, but think they are going that way…
Link on the right for playoff picks- there will be a prize. You have until first pitch tonight.
I didn’t see you post it but if you did, cheers.
I was struck by oddness of that photo and even wondered if it had been photo shopped. He’s tan with clear muscle definition in his arms. How does someone who’s been bed ridden for 6 months (and in a coma for most of that) get a tan and have muscular arms? Bizarre, but good to see nevertheless…..
Sorry to piss on the parade but just for clarification that picture was taken before the incident in L.A.
That’s a pisser. (It was accompanied by a story that insinuated itb was a couple days ago. )
I was thinking the same thing Flav – too much arm definition. Regardless, it’s nice to see that he is thinking, remembering his family and friends, and talking to them as well. Still a miracle.
I’ve always liked Cuddyer but he is not defensively adequate anywhere but LF or 1B. He’s just not a good fit now unless they bail on Huff or Belt. I don’t see that happening…
Lead-off, smeed off- if they could win with Rowand there ( and they did), they can win with Bengie Molina, Jr.
Most pressing needs are SS and a strong back up for Posey. I think the “strong back up” statement pretty much confirms that Whitey and Stewart won’t be back. Other than Rolllins, the only acceptable FA SS I see is Scutaro- and Boston has a club option for 2012. FA catchers available are Barajas, Doumit ( Bucs have 7 milliuon plus team option, forget that), Ramon Hernandez. Ramon is most likely to accept a back up job. I think he’s the man.So- SS. The options aren’t good. Start with the least likely but cheapest option- Crawford learns to hit a little. Scutaro becomes option 2 if Boston lets him go. Option 3 might be most likely- they resign Keppinger and he plays there. I liked Rollins but I don’t see him taking a 2 year deal..so, as you can see, I don’t see them making many changes. My revised 2012 OD LU:
Ross CF
Fruckie 2B
Pablo 3b
Huff LF
Posey C
Belt 1B
Nate RF
Keppinger SS
I am not too far off your sense of things Twin and I had Keppinger on my bench and was going to write I could deal with him at SS if they think Crawford needs more AAA (I dont htink he will ever be a major league hitter).
My sense is Ross is going to get a two-year deal in Atlanta…Atlanta will think they need moderate upgrades after their collapse and think they can capture his 2010 magic and he seems to feed off playing against the Phillies…
Here’s the Stow story. I’m sorry for posting the pic, I should have noticed the muscle tone, etc. But the writer should not have accompanied the story with that photo. It’s still my bad, though, I’m embarassed.
http://tinyurl.com/5v89gq8
Not your fault, twin. Intentional or not it was misleading
That didn’t come out right. I meant the story with accompanying photo was misleading.
Twin admiting a mistake?
Yeah, I really wonder about Huff. They came down on him pretty hard. Basically saying 2011 was a free pass. Get your shit together from the get-go next year, or your going to the bench. More and more it sounds like they get one guy tops. I’d like to tsee them get Willingham and Crisp. They’ll be cheap. Torres I don’t think will come back remotely to anything resembling 2010. Crisp is a better hitter. He’s had a better track record of success. Not just a one year wonder.
Maybe Huff should quit smoking. If I can quit, anyone can.
If Crisp has an average year for him, he will be better than Torres for 2011, and not remotely close to as good as Torres 2010. The point being, they’d be obtaining a barely acceptable lead off hitter.
What about the BLEEPS?
I noted this before, though, and it should certainly be an inspiration for Bryan and his family: Gabby Giffords retiurned to the House floor on August 1 to vote on the debt ceiling, just 7 months after she was shot in the head.
Here’s the family’s official website. Plus a pic . . .
http://support4bryanstow.com/
Again, sorry to piss on the parade but that picture was taken before the incident as well. Remember what his occupation was.
There’s been so much noise about Crisp, though, they probably will get him. As Flavor said, those 2011 numbers are not exciting, though.
Crisp alluded he wants to be a Giant. Personally, I’d go with Flav’s intro suggestion and go after Santa Claus
His gifts are better.
I hear the big guy has a bit of a weight problem.
Neither were Torres’ . . .
It seems like the consensus here is to NOT trade Sanchez. I want to know why. Many of you keep saying his value is at an all time low. Clue to the wise . . . It can go MUCH, MUCH LOWER.
We should have known better with Sanchez.. Long enticed by his ability to strike out more than a batter per inning, we all wanted to believe his 13-9 record and 3.07 ERA in 2010 were signs of progress, but we were kidding ourselves, rationalizing that because he lacked the symptoms, he must have found the cure.
For Sanchez, the sickness has always been a lack of command. Instead of putting away hitters as quickly as his arsenal would allow, he’d give them free passes to first base. During that magical 2010, he issued more of those free passes (96) than any other pitcher in baseball. His walk ratio of 4.5 per nine innings wasn’t any better than his career mark of 4.6. He managed to survive it by allowing an MLB-low 6.6 hits per nine innings, but it was like the foundation of a house of cards. Any slight movement, and the whole thing would collapse.
Naturally, that slight movement has happened. Sanchez’s hit rate has risen to 7.1 per nine innings, which is still an impressive number, but when combined with the walks, the “house of cards” collapses. Sanchez’s walk rate has shown no substantial improvement from year to year. He still has trouble pitching deep into games, lasting seven innings only twice this year. He hasn’t changed one iota during his four years as a full-time starting pitcher. He offers strikeouts and strikeouts alone.
Again, please explain to me why he is going to get better next year, when there is NO evidence showing this. In my mind, he has better value in a trade.
I said last week it was clear Huff came into the season out of shape, and got ripped. Now, Bochy and Sabes admit the same thing after a season of his wheels coming off, and huff and puff that he better get his act together this offseason, and it’s like well, yeah that was obvious…
You’re not very cuddly, pal. Who ripped you? Quotes.
I think they will trade him, Blade. I think they should trade him. I think the team has moved on from his scattered ways. Last year was a flat nightmare for him. Beyond the injuries, he forgot to cover bases, field his position very well, and was basically lost out there. Bochy wanted to punch him in the face on at least 2 occasions.
Get what they can. There are a lot of pitching-starved teams out there. Fla, Balt, LAA, and plenty others.
You mentioned the Marlins Chuck . . . What do you think of Logan Morrison. I like him very much. That being said, I have no idea why something went wrong for Morrison during that 60 plus game stretch from June 1 to Aug. 13 in which he hit .213 with a .693 OPS. Maybe his late April foot sprain got him into some bad habits. Maybe he was trying too hard to hit home runs. Whatever the reason, he was no longer the patient hitter he had been throughout his professional career, walking just 21 times in 240 at-bats. But after a brief demotion to the minors in August — whether for slumping or for running his mouth (probably the latter) – he appeared to be back in form, producing a .384 on-base percentage and .900 OPS in September. Those are the numbers that made him such a hot commodity in April, when he looked like the second coming of Lance Berkman. The increased power is great, but the patient approach is what sets him apart from the glut of 20-homer outfielders. Perhaps, Florida would bite on Sanchez for Morrison. Flav, what do you think of that trade? I know you are high on Morrison too (must be because you wouldn’t fucking trade him to me. LOL).
I think I traded Morrison to Flav..I posted this yesterday about trying to nab both Bonifacio and Morrison…I think their one player you cant touch in Florida is Stanton and the one no one wants is Hanley Ramirez, so I not convinced they would unwilling to move Morrison. I think sliding JSanchez into their rotation with Johnson always getting hurt would be very tempting…I added that the Puerto Rican heritage probably has some marketing flavor in Miami.
I still think a JSanchez, Runzler and Peguero deal is pretty fair for Bonifacio and Morrison. I would expect that J. Sanchez straight up for Morrison is a possibility, so do they go for Runzler and Peguero for Bonifacio? I would add a middle-tier prospect if that greased the deal…
Oh sorry . . . Maybe it was you who turned me down flat regarding Morrison (grin). I know that Flav likes him though. Regardless, I can see the possibilities like you can GH. Both Morrison and Sanchez are in the “Dog House” for different reasons. I really doubt that Bonifacio will be moved. Jack McKeon loves him like a son. Bonifacio is probably the player who most benefited the most from Jack Mckeon taking over as interim manager. The 26-year-old became an everyday player under the Marlins’ new interim skipper and thrived with his extra at-bats. He has hit safely in 70 of the 85 games since McKeon took over, which translates into a .313 batting average and .379 on-base percentage. Bonifacio has also racked up 35 stolen bases over that stretch. Little or no chance the Marlins will trade him.
Zumie and you ripped me for raising the out of shape / cigarette issue, and that the dude was clearly out of shape when running the bags. Find your own quotes…
Since its confirmed now by management that Huff was out of shape, why didn’t they do something? After crapping out for 3 months, they could have DLed him mid-summer with a back issue, sent him to Ariz to workout and get in shape for a coupla 3 weeks, then come back. Meanwhile, Pill or Belt could have taken his spot, and possibly made a difference…
Zumie argued with Snarkk about Huff’s conditioning, and smoking. That’s the extent of the big rip that Snarkk feels he suffered. Flavor makes a good point, though: what is being referred to when they give Huff his ultimatum? The smoking? Partying? And remember he had a big Cactus League in 2011. ( .369 BA 6 HR 1.084 OPS) .
You jumped on the bandwagon. Zumie was adult about it. You weren’t, as usual. And you’ll never admit I was spot on right, now proved by management. Par for the course…
I think it’s fairly obvious about the Huff issue.
He switched to boxers
I did discuss the piece about Huff drinking and smoking that the suddenly Oh Goody Two Shoes brought up. Never addressed whether he was out of shape coming to camp this year. As is often the case, Snarkk is not being truthful.
It’s typical Snarkk- he makes an allegation he can’t support, then wants the “accused” to disprove it. I never argued about or discussed the issue of whether Huff reported to camp in shape.
So let’s get this straight: in late September of 2010 it became clear to Snarkkles that Huff reported to camp out of shape. It wasn’t clear in February, March, April, May, June, July, or August. It only became clear after Snark read a piece about Huff being a smoker..
GH, I answered you above . . .
took the pic down. I don’t know why I didn’t just let common sense guide my decision to not put that pic up. Dumb.
***** BETTING ALERT BOZO *****
Bozo, the Tigers-Brewers matchup for the World Series (as we have both guessed in Twin’s pool) is getting 17-1 odds!!!! That is good money!
I got 8-1 odds earlier in the week on the Tigers winning it all…Tigers get by the Yankees, they are going to the World Series….I think the Phillies are going down to the Brew Crew…
Thanks GH. I think the Tigers have as good a chance as anyone. The Brewcrew maybe not so much. I just don’t like the Phillies.
Blade, all good points on Bonifacio, hopefully McKeon’s tenure as manager maybe gives some idiot the idea to listen to Bonifacio offers, but I suspect you are right on them not dealing him. Morrison for Sanchez I think is a pretty good deal for both.
We know theat Sabean talked to the Malrins before about dealing Sanchez there. If my memory serves, the Malrisn wanted a swap of Cantu for Sanchez and thankfully Sabean laughed in their faces for that. What I can gather is that we offered Sanchez for Uggla and they laughed in our faces, so there may be a history of them talking about Sanchez and I still get the sense that there is bad blood there with Morrison. Sanchez was our #2 starter to start this year, wouldn’t you be willing to obtain a #2 starter for Logan Morrison?
I think they would…Morrison and Crisp as the two main additions? I would be satisfied with that if they are not signing any major free agents…I douubt Rollins settles for anything less than 3-years and $10 mill a year..
The Marlins are not going to trade Morrison for a guy whose health status is a total unknown… If it were ever entertained, it would be in March or so. But remember- the Marlins don’t pay people. They’d have to pay Sanchez MINIMUM 6 million. Ain’t happenin’..
I still like what you said about Bonifacio GH . . . Remember, they still have Hanley Ramirez there and seem committed to him at SS, i.e., Guillen said he expects Ramirez to return to form next season under him . . . I would really be excited about either Morrison or Bonifacio coming over here. I would cream my pants if both came over.
This is how I look at our pitching – Lincecum will be as good as ever. Same for Cain, Vogelsong may regress. However, Bumgarner will be much better. Since his poor April (0-4, 6.17 ERA), Bumgarner has been lights out, with a 12-9 record with a 2.94 ERA, 1.18 WHIP and 8.6 strikeouts per nine innings. And it’s not like he achieved those numbers with a bunch of early exits, coddled by a manager who didn’t trust him to pitch more than six innings at a time. At age 22, Bumgarner already knows how to extend himself, pitching seven innings or more in 15 of his 32 starts and eight innings or more in five of them. I’ve already said what I had to say about Sanchez in my post above . . . to me, he is the key to making this team better offensively. We should deal him while he has any value at all. All other options to obtain better hitting are mediocre or worse.
After next year, all bets are off on our pitching. In short, we have a limited time for the window of opportunity to remain open, insofar as another World Series championship with this group of pitchers. Just sayin’ . . .
Then you should look for a different trading partner, Blade.
Not “married” to Marlins at all. I could give a rat’s ass who we trade with.
However, we already have a high payroll and it’s very unlikely that it will increase significantly via the signing of a free agent(s). I know how much Sanchez is likely to make next year (as you pointed out). If you believe Sanchez will rebound next year, then paying him 6 large is a good investment. However, if you think that this money can be better spent on someone else, why not trade him? I fall in this camp. I have no idea if Sanchez is damaged goods or not . . . His record speaks for itself and it’s very clear that he is digressing. Signs weren’t just this year, but as I pointed out, have been there for his entire career. Even you said his problem isn’t being a head case, but lack of control. Here we both agree.
My Dirrrty for Jose Reyes trade 4 months ago is looking pretty good now.
Funny. Dirty and what other 4 players..
That wasn’t the point. The survey asked if you would make that trade. It had nothing to do with fair value. Simple question, would you make that trade? Over 80% that voted said, “No.” I’m sure you were one of the many that vetoed it. Stoopid mook.
Until his last 2 starts in June, he was still a better than average 4 or 5.His ERA was 3.47 and he had given up more than 3 earned runs just twice in 14 starts. As far as not improving, his walks are all that are noted by many- actually his whip improved every year from 2007 thru 2010, as did his ERA. Despite the foolishness posted by another commenter, one cannont rule out injury as the cause for the last two performances before he went on the DL.Obviously we disagree but one thing is certain, they won’t get shit for him until he shows he’s healthy. The question then is obviously what they would get and who replaces him in the rotation. Vogelsong was an anomaly, he’s hardly evidence that there are others like him hanging out… Chuckles’ Harang idea isn’t his worst, Adam would probably pitch pretty well here.
My opinion is that if he shows he’s healthy, he’ll be in the rotation here. We’ll see.
The two guys I wanted (both trades) and I put this down in my 2012 line-up pick in room B, was Bonifacio and also McCutchen from the Pirates. Bonifacio is arb ready in 2012 and I figured Ozzie would want room for his buddy Omar. The Pirates need relief pitching and we have a bit of that.They also need a first baseman and we have a bit of that. Sanchez isn’t our only trade bait, Pill, Gillaspie, Burriss and Ford don’t really have spots and they could probably be used in trades (I know those guys aren’t considered prospects but I don’t think they’re Bowker types and we were able to trade him).
I just think the FA market sucks for what we need and maybe trades are the way to go.
The prize in the playoff contest will be a new external USB Blu-Ray drive. This is not a burner, it is to play Blu-Ray movies. It will read and burn CDs and DVDs.
Excellent
Here’s Baggs’ review of the 2012 payroll.
$31M for Zito and Gamer…
http://www.mercurynews.com/giants/ci_19008472
Yeah, Zito got a raise. LMAO.
One can’t ignore the numbers either. What gets me about Drrrty is the fact he looked so spaced out this year. There were times he couldn’t find the strike zone to save his life. But that’s a given. Strike out the 3-4-5 guys, then walk the 7-8-9 guys. that speaks to more of a concnetration issue rather than in injury. But what do I know?Then there’s the times he fails to cover 1st on grounders to the right side. He failed to cover home in that Nat game. The look on his face is, huh? What just happened?
Doc Ellis used to pitch on acid. It looked like Drrty was pitching on Qaaludes. Frankly, I’m tired of his game. Potential is for the younger guys. He’s pushing 30.
Gillaspie, Burriss and Ford? Not sure what you’d get there, Bozo. Try to pry Willingham at least, and maybe get the cereal box. Shit, I’d love to get McCutcheon. Drrrty, Peguero, and Pill?
Whatever, he was still a better than average 4 or 5. Check out the bottom of rotation guys on other teams. Duke, Gallararga, Enright all tried in AZ. Miley was their last try-and by far the BEST- at 4.50 ERA, 1.650 WHIP.ore after lunch..
Your right Chuck. I was trying to say we had other people we could trade besides Dirty to some low salary teams. Would I trade Dirty for McCutchen? Yes I would. McCutchen would probably win more games than Zito (as the fifth starter) would lose.
You’re right, not your right.
Johnny Damon with a 2 run dinger in the 2nd. 2-0 Tampa
Johnny Damon? Now, that is a blast from the past.
Drrty wasn’t pencilled in as the 5, Mike. Or even their 4. He was supposed to be their 3. Who happened to be 2nd in the rotation.
Whatever. Like I said, I’m tired of his act.
Francona’s out in Boston. That’s pretty shitty of them. His team totally failed down the stretch. Crawford was about as big a waste of money as possible. They had injury ptoblems as well, and their closer had 2 outs, no one on, and 2 strikes on the last guy, and lost the game. yeah, fire the guy that has won two world series’s’s’s
TB’s pounding Texas.
6-0
6-0
Is there a worse announcer than Buck Martinez? He’s fingernails on a chalkboard.
The Fox clowns excluded of course . . .
He wasn’t the fucking 2, that was just to split the RHers. Look: right now he’s being discussed as the 5 for 2012 .And he is who they want.. what you think doesn’t mean shit. I’ve been nice about this but it’s your act on this that’s tired. He’s gonna make 6 milion dollars starting next year and his past performance makes him worth every fucking penny.This all started with he retarded idea that he can be traded for a starting YOUNG power hitter. He can’t. He will be here unless he doesn’t recover from his injury.
I forget which but Sabean or Bochy said Sanchez and Zito would “compete” for the 5
There are conflicting reports on that. According to Baggarly,”Brian Sabean says Surkamp not ready, Zito had his trials. So Jonathan Sanchez looking very much like No.5 starter.”
This Matt Moore kid is the real deal. The only negative I can find is that he has eyebrows like Groucho Marx.
So let’s review what we’ve got: Sanchez is injured and before he was injured he was a basket case who sucked and was getting worse. He’s currently making 4.8 million and he’s due arb and will be a FA after next year. Yet Florida is going to trade a 23 YO making minimum and under control for 4 more years- who had 23 HR and 72 RBI in his first full year.
My point about Huff’s conditioning or supposed lack thereoff was people using examples of him breathing hard after getting a triple or scoring from first on an extra-base hit. I’m just saying that’s not proof of anything. Conor Gallaspie was sucking air after his inside-the-park homerun. Does that mean he’s out of shape? No. It just means he ran as hard as he could. I mean, he MIGHT be out of shape; but that’s just not proof.
Plus what else is management going to say? They’re certainly not going to want to say that Huff’s skills have eroded. They have to pay him 11 million next season, and hope to get a good season out of him. In other words, let’s all HOPE that Huff was out of shape this season, and that’s all it was.
Anyone else see that documentary on one of the ESPN channels about Bartman? If you can catch that, see it while you can. It’s one of the best sports documentaries I’ve ever seen. I was still thinking about it long after the show was over. Very well done, and very thought-provoking regarding a lot of things about sports.
OK, here’s what Baggs reported:
” Sabean all but said Jonathan Sanchez will be tendered a contract. Eric Surkamp clearly isn’t ready and Barry Zito has had his ‘trials and tribulations’ Zito will be in camp this spring to compete for the No.5 starter job. It’s looking like Sanchez will be the guy, though.”
And Schulman’s report:
“He (Sabean) expects to hold on to Jonathan Sanchez rather than trade him or let him walk as a free agent, and Sanchez and Zito will compete for the 5th spot in the rotation next spring”
So yeah, basically the same thing. 8-0 Tampa, BTW
Zumie, they never explained what was being referred to when it was said that Huff was out of shape. Hell, it might have just been the reports of his smoking. Now we all know to not take Cactus numbers seriously, but when Huff has a monster spring after the year he had in 2010, we’re all pretty optimistic.
I have 9 contestants for the Blu-Ray drive. I haven’t checked for ties- if there is one, tie breaker will be total HRs for both teams in WS. You can E-Mail me that total.
blade and Macdog could tie
Did I say he was the 2, Mke? No, I didn’t. Please try to read and understand what I type. He certainly wasn’t the 5 last year. Next year? Maybe. Or maybe they are tired of his act, as I am.
You’ve been nice about it? What exactly, Mike? The fact he was struggling with a mystery injury that only you know about? That I should listen you to you regarding Sanchez and how he’ll go 15-3 next year? Right, skippy. Past performance? The past is getting farther and farther away. Same with Huff. He’s on the same short leash as Sanchez. A guy due to make a ton of money who could very well be benched, and/or dumped early next season. Sanchez is in the same boat. Produce or adios. Contrary to what people think, Drrrty does have trade value. He’s a lefty who at times is unhittable. However, he’s lost. The trade, if it does happen, will be during camp next year. Either that, or get RJ back here to hold his hand and make him feel better.
I’ve been nice in toleratring more of the basket case bullshit from you. Now fucking drop it- the brass expect him to be the 5 and so do I. Although he could certainly end up the 4. You are obsessed on this. Listen dipfuck– I’ve only said he might have been hurting and only a dumb cocksucker would rule it out. Again- argue with Bochy and Sabean about him- and DO NOT bring this over to “B”.
I never said he had no trade value- I said it was low. I also already said that IF it happened at all it would be in March or so- but no team is giving up a young, minimum wage power hitter under team control for a guy coming off injury and due to make about 6 million. Period. If Sanchez IS healthy he’s worth far more to us than his value in trade. Let me help you again- Surkamp is the BEST starting pitching prospect. As far as being even close to ready, he’s also the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best…they’d be fucking nutz to trade Sanchez.
Again, I never said that you thought Sanchezs had no trade value. Just that a lot of people here think they should wait til his value goes up.
I don’t have to drop it, Mike. What I’m obsessed with is your inablilty to see ANY other alternative than the one you proclaim to be gospel. Sanchez might have concentration issues, Mike. It’s as valid a point as your imaginary injury hypothesis.
What of his failing to field his position at times?
Just because management says, the day after the season ends, that Sanchez is in a fight for the 5th spot in the rotation means nothing happens between now and when pitchers and catchers report in 143 days?
Right.
In other words, if the Giants can trade Sanchez for a good enough player, they can certainly find a 5th starter out there.
So spit it out- who can they get straight up?
Chuckles- you’re right, he’s a basket case, and he sucks. Now fucking drop it or at least discuss it with someone else. He’s going to make 6 million dollars to wander around aimlessly, what do you get paid for that?
Well, this off season should show the mettle of the giants front office. Do they have what it takes to put a winning team on the field more than one year running? They have the fans, the ballpark and the team. Can they make the player moves that is required by a top tier team? One of the hardest things to do no doubt. We should know a lot by April 5th.
They’ve put a winning team on the field three years running. I don’t see any indication they are going to move into the Yankee/Red Sox/Phillie payroll range so the reality of what to hope for is what we’ve seen for those three years- a contending team with a legit shot at the postseason.
Spooky. dirtnrocksnreno posts on A Winter without basking.…and it’s gone!!!!
I guess Twin didn’t like my post or something.
Regarding Sanchez. Who is SF going to find that is better? $6M is peanuts in today’s game a the upside with Sanchez is to good to pass on. If he strings together a good first half he can be flipped for a bat and prospects. Call him the 2, 5, whatever. After opening day the order is meaningless.
Sorry, Dirt. Didn’t se it. There had been so little response, I dumped the thread..
Twin, no problem. I was just being a wise ass anyway. I enjoyed the 2011 season. The club fought and persevered. Just ran out of bullets. Looking forward to 2012.
New page- “Whither Dirty?”
So, I’m not supposed to brng it to B, and now it’s the topic? Brilliant. Are dissenting opinions allowed?
Good to see you go with the personal attacks, Mike.
Stay classy.
BLEEP dissent!
Read the post- you get to state your opinion but do NOT respond to other posts. You really don’t realize that you are a major shit disturber. Anyway, feel free to state your opinion on Dirty. Just do it without responding to other opinions- that’s not just for you, it’s for all.
That was a touching moment when that little boy, Cooper threw out the first pitch prior to the Rangers game. Hamilton was both warm and receptive to the kid and his mother. Kid’s got a arm on him. Wash shoulda started him instead of Wilson.
A soft moment of feeling from Dennis? Where’s the hard drinking guy ready to eat nails?
Lying next to you passed out in the van, Nipper . . .
Nipper, I may play the part of The Grinch most days, but when I saw that little boy throw out that ball, “my heart grew THREE sizes today.”
Merry Christmas
Seriously. How many other guys wish you a Merry Christmas in September?
Deep down I have a good heart. You just need a shitload of shovels to get there.
McCutchen’s balking on signing a long term deal in Pittsburgh (do you blame him?). Trade Drrrty, Peguero, and Surkamp for him. Hey, we can give them Rowand’s phone number as well.
Flling the 5 hole (and eating Zito once and for all) won’t be that difficult. There are a boatload of FA pitchers they can sign. Either that, or Zito goes to the pen, and guys take turns injuring him. For 2 more years.
It’s not just a winter without basking, it’s a winter without bravado, without dash.
Despite all the press-release and press-conference fiction, the team has left us with uncertainty. WallSt mogul Johnson now controls the partnership. The insults he shot at Neukom, via the Chronicle muckrakers, sounded exactly like what you hear from corporate insiders all the time when they’re trying to manipulate public perception of — their business. (Johnson apparently told Matier & Ross, who I think is just Matier, that Neukom expected “CEO pay for Chairman hours.” In corporate-speak, that insult essentially said that Neukom’s leadership was not really relevant to the WS championship.) So now we have Larry Baer as liason between the baseball ops and the hard-headed investor/owners. Baer, presumably, demands the salary the owners are willing to pay him. All to often, you really do get what you pay for.
Meanwhile, from the 2010 team, by the end of 2011 only the pitching staff remained. The staff is the backbone of the team, of course. The team easily can reach winter deals with all the important pitchers. And the fact that things aren’t the same as 2010 is not all bad news. Pablo’s back; a few of the rookies look like they can play, maybe not at the AS level, but well. Beyond that, uncertainty . . . . .
Combine the uncertainty of the corporate commitment with the uncertainty of the position players who will be healthy and on the team next year, and you’ve got a double dose of uncertainty. So we don’t go into this winter just missing the bask. It’s a stange situation. Everyone’s expectations are high. The money flowed in all year long this season. Even the money-minded owners can see reasons to compete at top level. They may do what’s necessary.
Maybe moves over the winter will warmlhy reassure. It won’t be a warmth you can bask in. But it may be enough to get the Giants back in the PS next year.
Nice take. I do actually have some respect for Baer. He’s definitely not stupid. And this is a guy who has been with this organization longer than anyone except Murph the equipment guy. All I’m saying is, it could be worse. And the thing that binds all of them together is the desire to make money. You can’t do that if you’re losing. So, I am hoping for the best……
Sanchez had a disappointing 2011, but I take issue with the idea he is regressing. From 2008 to 2010, take a look at what he did and how he improved his numbers across the board. Everything, from WHIP to ERA to BA against was better. He walked a lot of guys yes…he is tough to hit, among the toughest in the entire league 2010. So the plan was obvious–since they couldn’;t hit the guy, batters took more pitches than usual in an effort to get on base and get him off his game. It was their only weapon.
I also think missing Posey hurt his game–Whitey has issues catching the baseball, and I don’t think Sanchez trusts him to catch his stuff. The only alternative was Stewart, again a young and inexperienced guy behind the plate. With Posey back I think very likely he returns to closer to 2010 form which was very good….not playoff vs. the Phils form at all.
Further, and maybe most important, there is no one behind him in the rotation. The rarity of the success of Vogs types is actually proof of that–no one just finds guys that can start and be effective at mlb level.
Last, the Pirates are not trading Andrew McCutchen for Sanchez, and we aren’t getting LoMo either. You aren’t going to get equal value/young good hitter who either runs well or has pop, as Twin said. And there’s the decision maker for Sabes–will any team offer something SF could really use? doubt it.
willieD, you usually provide excellent cogent reasoning, however, I’m not following you insofar as Sanchez’s poor 2011 season. I totally am mystified about, “So the plan was obvious–since they couldn’t hit the guy, batters took more pitches than usual in an effort to get on base and get him off his game. It was their only weapon.” Huh? Do you have quantitative evidence of this? The other “excuse” of his catchers I don’t understand either. Sanchez is a veteran pitcher. Most important of all, Sanchez is responsible for himself and his baseball performance. No one else.
actually, I totally agree with WillieD. He had wild movement on his ball and he’s leading the league in walks. Taking more pitches than you normally would take is a perfectly reasonable approach to hitting against a pitcher like Dirrrrrty.
Flav, let me get this right – Poor Sanchez is the victim here because the big bad hitters are taking more pitches, thus, they are at fault for his poor season????? Did I just enter a bizarro world of reasoning? Please explain, I’m all ears . . .
Umm, just wondering – does Sanchez have any responsibility for . . . umm, let’s say a counter-plan when the hitter employs the “I am just going to let him walk me” approach?
Then Drrrty’s fucked. They are on to him. He will continue to throw too many pitches and get into trouble by the 5th. We all hear about arm slot, keeping the shoulder back, leading with the elbow, blah blah blah, but I’d think if his problems were mechanical, they’d have figured something out by now.
The reasoning is sound, just based on the fact Drrty’s pitch count is usually pretty high by the 5th inning. Guys are taking.
If taking pitches was their only weapon, well, it worked in spades, Willie. What did he do to counter that? Well, nothing. If they found his achilles heel, he needs to rethink it. He didn’t. Can he come back? I guess. He’s worn out his potential tag, though. He’s going on 29. As we all know, the FA market is pretty flat. Sanchez should be able to get something decent.
Blaming Drrrrty’s struggles on Posey’s absence? No one else seemed to falter with Whitey or Stewie. Stewart has been in the bigs parts of 6 seasons, and in organized ball since 2001. He’s 29 for God’s sake. He not a kid. He is a above average defensive catcher.
You are talking about 2011…I’m talking about 2010, and explaining that as the reason for his high walk count. 2009 and 2010, he struck out more guys, gave up less hits, and lowered his ERA, yet still walked a lot of guys. Why? Because they couldn’t hit the guy even when they swung. Remember Ryan Howard? He knew he couldn’t hit wilson, so he watched it go by.
This is not Zito we are talking about, who when he has to come in gets hammered with that 80 plus excuse for a fastball, and batters are just waiting for him to throw something near the strike zone. Sanchez has mega heat and a good breaking ball, and was damn near unhittable 2010…best in the National league, the same league as Lincecum, Wainwright and Carpenter, and Hershaw, Cy candidates all.
Remind me again of stewart’s experience handling major league pitching, knowledge of major league hitters, or whitey’s for that matter, which is quite different from being a good defensive C. Sanchez needed help last year, and he couldn’t get it from either of these guys. There wasn’t anyone with vet presence behind the plate to get him through his bad outings. He pitched very well 2010 with Posey, and in 2011 not very well without him. It’s not that simple, sure, but I think he (and I bet he isn’t alone among entire PS) will be more relaxed and comfortable with Posey back behind the plate.
I realize how bad he looked this past year, but you can’t ignore the two years before that, when he had shown steady improvement. If he is never better (or much worse) than 2010, it is still pretty damn good, and a damn sight better than Zito or Surkamp.
A couple interesting things about Morrison- the White Sox wanted him in exchange for Ozzie Guillen, Marlins turned them down, sent a couple minor leaguers instead. Also he filed a grievance against the Marlins for his demotion.
So he couild be one of the few good young position players who might be traded, but only for similar-not a guy who would have to be paid 6 mill and then become a FA after 2012. Think of the Hamilton trade to Texas for Volquez- two guys with problems. Not sure of his status but Villalona and maybe a young reliever come to mind..
Again, I support WIllieD on this. While I’ve never called Dirrrty a *headcase* he is definitely a pitcher that gets in his own head and starts to perseverate on all of his mechanics when things aren’t going well on the mound. This isn’t my opinion this is something Krukow is on record as saying he’s talked with Raggs about. The fucking pitching coach and the color guy are saying this is what’s happening with the pitcher. I trust their take. When this is happening you need a catcher who knows how to manage the pitcher as well as the pace of the game. And if you are the pitcher you have to trust your catcher. Do you think Dirrrrty trusted Stew-Whitey? Or Posey? Exactly…….
Flav, who was Sanchez’s catcher when Bengie was here? Who caught Drrrty’s no-no . . . ?
Whitey . . .
It was pointed out often that Whitey’s defense took a big hit this year.
As TF just pointed out, our Farm System is bare in the cupboard when it comes to SP. Maybe when it comes to FA, we should look long and hard at another starter if as it seems, we’re not going “heavy” for the bat.
Could someone post the FA list of SP pitchers please?