17 Different Line Ups in 22 Games. Time for an 18th in 23.
The last thing I want to do is start picking apart Bochy’s line ups. There’s never any resolution and for the amount of time we can spend cogitating and debating a topic, it’s not really worth it. And yet, I can’t stop myself. I don’t care if the Giants are facing the average left handed offerings of Clayton Richard. Yesterday’s line up, despite it’s *match up* potential, leaves us way too exposed on defense. And the supposed extra offense you get in return just isn’t there. If that’s the line up we see against lefty’s (maybe twice a week?) over the course of the season the UZR hit will be harder than any bump in offensive production we might get from it. I didn’t compare our position players using UZR, but I did list off who are *best* defensive players are at each position in my April 28th thread. They are:
Blanco: CF
Cabrera: LF
Panda: 3rd
Posey: C
Nate: RF
Belt: 1B
Crawford: SS
Burriss: 2B
Besides the absence of Pagan, I actually like that line up a lot. The odd man out is Blanco and I wouldn’t mind seeing an outfield of Pagan/Blanco/Cabrera since as most of us understand and should already know, Nate should be coming off the bench, not starting.
The other spot in *my* line up that I wouldn’t mind a change would be at shortstop. I haven’t had a problem with Crawford playing there mostly because it’s a position I understand isn’t going to give me much offense, he’s a fabulous defender and there hasn’t been anything behind him that’s been exciting enough for me to say “Hey! We should be playing THAT guy at shortstop!!!”. Well, minus the exclamation points, I will just say this:
“Hey, we should play Arias at shortstop.”
B-Craw is probably a little banged up, both physically and mentally. Running him out there everyday doesn’t seem to be working. And what you lose with Arias defensively just isn’t that much with the flip side offensive contribution being far more delicious.
At first base, I feel the same way. What Buster and Hector give you offensively at 1st and catcher respectively, just doesn’t justify what you’re losing defensively.
Posey is going to give you more at the plate than Hector will. But Posey isn’t necessarily going to give you more offensively than Belt would at first base. And defensively Posey is better at catcher than Hector and Belt is better at first than Buster. So, if you believe Belt is ready to hit consistently like a normal mlb first baseman, then it doesn’t make a lot of sense to go with this Hector (C)/Posey(1B) thing.
And Brett Pill would never get into a line up card that I would compose. He’s gotta have the softest .934 OPS I’ve ever seen in my life. And to make up for that lack of range in left field, he better start hitting with an OPS of .1000+ to make up for what he’s NOT going to give you defensively out there. Remember, it’s not just about *not making errors*. If you have no chance to get to the balls your replacement player would get to, that is just as bad as making an error on the play if you were able to get to them. On Saturday, this is the play by play box score of the top of the 4th inning:
Looks pretty uninteresting, right? Just a nice, clean 1-2-3 inning for Timmy? Hardly. That inning was all-Cabrera. And if Pill were out there I would bet that he wouldn’t have gotten a glove on any of those 3 balls. Had Pill been playing LF, it is totally conceivable that the Padres would have put up 2 (or more) runs that inning. And that’s how lack of range defensively can turn a 2-1 victory into a 3-2 loss.
You can’t put together a line up card and tunnel vision your focus on solely L/R *match ups*. There’s more to it than that……..
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*****Note*********
I read the idea that Dirt tossed out in yesterday’s thread about an alternative to me shutting the blog down after post 1000 (today was post #721). I liked it, especially the part about having a stable of guest-bloggers to pick up the slack. Definitely a topic to re-visit.
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
Why would anyone think Hector is a better hitter than Belt? It’s a very small career sample, but at the very least he should not be in the line up against lefties ahead of Belt.
DeRosa to the DL with a strained left oblique.
Hector so far this year is 3 for 15 vs. LHP, no XBH so his slugging is also .200. On the season he has 1 BB and 1 HR in 36 ABs, and an OPS in .650 range. He seems to me a capable back up, but nothing more.
I have never been in favor of Posey at 1b; Pill doesn’t impress me in his small sample either. So far he is 1 for 7 with RISP, 1 rbi. I remember on a road trip (NY game vs. Niese with Zito) he grounded out to 3b twice with runner at 3b, and he did it again yesterday before he whacked the double. Capable back up maybe, but not a guy I start more than once in a couple weeks–less over all value than blanco.
I cracked up at blade’s post about all the babes in the stands yesterday, which was evident in the camera scans around the yard–sleeveless tops, etc. I work in downtown los gatos, where weather is pretty mild and there is high babe quotient. A sales rep who lives in SF calls on us every few months–he is early 30s maybe, and I’m nearer his dad’s age. He is always pleasantly amazed to see women of every age, from college to mine, walking around in shorts, tanks/sleeveless tops and sandals—which he says is in stark contrast to life in SF.
Weatherproof games: Diamondbacks-Marlins, Rangers-Blue Jays, Mariners-Rays and Mets-Astros.
Royals-Tigers is in serious jeopardy of a rainout, as Detroit is expected to see heavy thunderstorms throughout the night. However, the other seven roof-less venues have virtually no chance of precipitation on Monday.
My cuz and I like to get to the park 1-2 hours before the game and watch practice/warmups. I was truly amazed by Andrew Cashner and Huston Street playing “long toss.” I know that most yahoos don’t pay attention to other team’s players, especially if they are San Diego and/or you’re not in a Fantasy League like the Flap . . . This guy Cashner is the heir apparent to Street and in my mind, the long toss session between him and Huston yesterday, told me plenty about who will be closing eventually and who will be told to “grab some pine meat.” In short, Cashner was winging long tosses beyond every distance I saw our Giants doing, without breaking a sweat, and easily without difficulty to what Street was hurling (i.e., his tosses were usually 1-2 bounces before they hit Cashner’s glove).
Per ESPN fantasy, this is what they say about this stud, “He’s been lighting up the radar guns, hitting triple digits on a consistent basis. He is the Padres’ closer of the future. Owners in keeper leagues should note his name for now, and be ready to snatch him when it appears the Padres are ready to hand him the closer’s job. He has the stuff to be an elite bullpen option.”
DUH! My eyes told me everything I need to know and I’m no frickin’ scout. By the by, I thought about Glass while watching Cashner throw long toss and I said to myself, “Freddy has little to no chance of coming back if he has to demonstrate his ability to do long toss.” Aint going to happen boys and girls.
Pawlie’s too modest to toot his own horn, so I will do it for him . . . This is an article about his book and also mentions our beloved Flap.
http://blog.syracuse.com/cny/2012/04/two_out_bottom_of_the_ninth_syracuse_author_weaves_fans_memories_to_tell_the_tale_of_the_storied_las.html
By the by Pawlie, I finally finished the two books I had started before receiving your book from Amazon . . . I am now reading it in earnest (in other words, not just page 17, where I “star.” Ha.). Loving the book thus far my friend . . . Steve.
Thanks, Steve. And Hart Seely — excellent writer himself — shined a nice spotlight on the Flap! He knew the Jeffrey Leonard connection on his own.
I know it is a dead and decomposed carcass and we’ll never get it but it would be interesting to hear some rationale from Bochy on the lack of PT for Belt. As I stated yesterday I think he is lining it up to see more of Sanchez and Posey which means less of Belt. Unless he is going to play in LF.
Is just his belief that Belt can’t hit lefties? Is it backed up by any data? Does he think Sanchez is the better player? Does he secretly pine for the return of El Presidente?
Did he and Sabean have a difference of opinion on breaking camp with Belt and he’ll run out there whatever LU he sees fit? This is one explanation that would make sense to me. The BS “we’ll run the best LU out there to win” isn’t supported by the data.
The lineups are only limited by Bochy’s imagination. On a Bochy team everyone plays. Rookies have to be a clearcut superior player to play everyday.
Simple explanation could be Bochy didn’t want Posey catching a day game after a night game. So, to keep Posey in the lineup against the LH…..As the season progresses and Posey’s leg gets stronger, we’ll probably see less and less of him at 1b.
Could argue Belt in LF, but Pill needs some ab’s and it’s only coming against LHP.
What, we’re concluding he sucks based on a 1-7 w/risp? Wow, I’d hate to play for that mgr.
Never mind that no one but Pablo has hit much w/risp.
what i said was he doesn’t impress me (esp hitting gbs to third instead of getting a ball in the air with a runner at 3b), not that “he sucks.” I would disagree he “needs some ABs”—he has shown some pop, but I think blanco is better at OB (critical team lack imo), runs better and is better defensively, and I’d spot start him in the OF over Pill. I’d only spot Pill at 1b to give belt a rest–obviously bochy has multiple guys to do that right now.
And if Posey’s legs need a break, I’d let him sit.
So, you would have sat Posey and started Hector, Belt and Blanco yesterday?
Blanco has been impressive with his .167 (1-6) w/risp, not to mention his .182 avg/ .296 obp.
Pill’s obp btw, is .414.
Personally, I’m not drawing any conclusions about Blanco, Pill or Hector. It’s just too soon.
I have been excited about Belt’s future since he was tearing it up in A ball. I advocated strongly he play last year. I think he should start now. But I see no problem with Bochy going all right handed at this point.
We do not always agree with Bochy’s line ups. But as Craig was eager to point out when Belt sat-Bochy knows more about it than we do. As far as Melky’s plays, Pill might very well have made them, as an inexperienced LFer will play deeper. He made one last night easily that would have been tougher for an outfielder not playing deep. Where you lose out with Pill or any other new and/or poor outfielder are all the balls that will fall in front of them. Anyway, I’ve posted repeatedly that I think Pill is a AAAA hitter, but how can one not give him the chance he deserves -to prove it either way. He does need some starts, “soft” .934 or not. That was a pretty unsoft double that preceded the game winner by Arias.
I think Bochy *will* make changes in the regular line up – Crawford will have to do more than he is, Pagan”s production will need to keep up with his fuck-ups, Nate’s spot could see several changes, and there is the possibility that Fruckie *will*return…
With Crawford, Burriss, and a pitcher hitting you’ve got 3 automatic outs. I’d like to still see Crawford out there everyday but Burriss is not an everyday starter. He has zero extra base hits this year and one last year. Jesus, run into one and roll it to the wall once in awhile. Give Arias and Theriot go at second and maybe next year Panik takes over. Pill admitted he’s not comfortable playing outfield but that’s the only spot to get him some ab’s. I find it hard to believe that anybody in the bigs can’t play a position if they practice enough. Hit ’em a 100 balls a day, that’s what they get paid for.
NL needs the DH for a guy like Pill. Have Pill show up to the plate or your typical pitcher? I like hitting and hate pitchers at the plate.
Nipper, Nipper, a closet AL lover!! over here in the NL, we just say no to the DH!!
It’s pretty simple…the DH just out and out sucks.
How about joining the 21st Century?
There is a difference between having no pop and being an automatic out. Burriss has hardly been an automatic out..BTW, Panik is hitting .221 at San Jose, in a league that some flappers could hit well in. I wouldn’t be counting on him for next year.
In that league, that’s bad news.
Just imagine all the lineup arguments we could have if Freddy returns!
Not to mention Huff…And you know how Bochy just loves the Rohand Man..we’re paying him, he wants to play…
22 games in…I think it a bit early to get wrapped around the axle over line-ups. I would like to see more of Belt, but not going to do a lot of hand-wringing when Boch goes with an all righty line-up.
It’s not that an all righty line-up was thrown our there despite the fact that those left on the bench are demonstrably better against LHP. It’s that Belt can’t get an ass crack of daylight despite a higher ceiling. Bochy rationale would be interesting is all I am saying since it doesn’t correspond to empirical evidence. Here’s the next 4 pitchers SF faces.
R. Nolasco
C. Zambrano
A. Sanchez
M. Estrada
All RHP. I wonder if Belt starts more that two of those games.
It’s a mystery to me what is so great about Belt? What does he do that creates so much interest? So far just another player. Yeah once in while he produces but not often.
Because Pill sucks and Sanchez posts great numbers for a b/u catcher and nothing more.
Dirt – I’m with you…I am one of those who has clamored for Belt to get more starts.
One difference between Sanchez and Belt?
Sanchez OPS = .649.
Belt OPS = .755
So again…you put Posey at 1st and Sanchez behind the dish, you have two hitters with .649 and 1.013 OPS.
Put Buster at C and Belt at 1st, you have .755 and 1.013.
I get it that Bosey is trying to spread around the starts and keep guys fresh. But, I just wanted to throw out the OPS numbers to illustrate the difference it makes in shuffling the line-up as such.
Uh…got my Posey and Bochy mixed…last post was supposed to be “I get it that BOCHY….”
This is going to sound strange when Flav’s main topic is about the best defensive team. But, I have to say that, it seems a lot of the LU bashing is based on the way Fantasy Baseball players look at players. Just looking at the day to day stats and match ups doesn’t always work in everyday play. It is how you win in the fantasy leagues but in the real game it’s a long haul and winning the game is the only stat that counts. Yeah the .240 hitter might not be having the best year but he may be the one with the game winning hit. Games won count in the real leauges, where as the .240 hitter’s one RBI might not count much in fantasy league play. I know everyone here knows that but sometimes it seems to get lost (to this muddled mind anyway).
BLEEP fantasy stuff. Sorry BF.
How was the J&H fest?
Still here chi. I won’t go into how I now equate Springsteen with Bay To Breakers except to say, if they ran BTB through the water and never hit the streets it would make me a fan.
Pagan is currently tied for the MLB-lead with a 14-game hitting streak.
Where does he stand in misplayed fly balls and base running blunders?
Better than the guy that has been on the DL for four weeks.
Not really. We might have benefitted more if Pagan had been on the DL as well. Like all poor centerfieders he plays way deep so besides the balls he misplays, what should be outs fall in. His fuck ups hurt more than his assets help thus far.
“Not really. We might have benefitted more if Pagan had been on the DL as well.”
Ludicrous statement. Same thing with regard to the Melky and Sanchez trade. That trade looked good after the ink was dry on the contract. I wont go back and forth with you Mike because you NEVER want to admit your right. lqtm.
*right . . . meant “WRONG.”
And I’ve heard enough of this being about Torres- I never anticipated he’d be more than a 5th OFer this year anyway. The problem is who they got. They could have/should have signed Beltran without giving up anybody. Failing that there were about a dozen better OFers available as free agents..
Actually, that statement is a total falsehood, Steve. Like anyone who actually goes out on a limb often, I’ve been wrong often- and said so. There is no final judgement on either of these trades, any suggestion otherwise is simply untrue… BTW, Pagan is currently on pace to give 23 runs above average in the field over 150 games, our last CFer was a plus 17.
Fair enough. 🙂
As I said, I like Melky-on the day of the trade I said so. My issue with that was trading a pitcher from an already thin starting staff.
Melky has had a couple of either 7 or 8 game streaks, too. I certainly think the Melky – Dirty trade is working out for the Giants. Dirty for KC – 6.75 ERA with 17 BB in 17 1/3 innings.
If trades were judged based on the first month, you’d have a good point.
That’s not to say I don’t like Melky, I do and said so when the trade happened. Jast as I didn’t like Pagan and said so.
I’m just stating a reality- neither trade can be judged yet.
Definitely. Just early numbers sure look good. I do think in the long-run the Melky/Sanchez trade is going to work out for the Giants.
The long run might just be this year, both could be on the market after 2012.
Until Blade produces a picture proving he and his cousin are not one in the same all trades are null and void 😉
lqtm dirt. Hey, the pics are on the way and will be of the Giants game we went to yesterday.
Dirt, check your ESPN in basket.
Trying to trade me Florida’s JJ again? I’ll take a look tonight.
Okie dokie.
@Blade—I liked your post about watching long toss. I’ve read a little bit about Cashner in the paper down here and he sounds like a good ole boy who likes to hunt and fish and just so happens to also be able to throw 100mph gas. Your comparison to Street reminded me of watching Alex and Troy Smith warm up before the Niners played the Chargers down here last year. They were both throwing about 30 yards. Alex needed to put a little air under each throw while Troy was throwing easy lasers. You gotta love sports—sometimes the guy with the big arm wins out, sometimes he doesn’t.
Sanddog, it was very striking – similar to what you said, Cashner was throwing easy and all his throws were “lasers” . . . Street on the other hand was having difficulty even reaching him and was throwing “feathers” in comparison. Literally took my breath away watching this guy’s physical abilities in play. Like you said though, “sometimes the guy with the big arm wins out, sometimes he doesn’t.” This is the main reason I like going to the park a couple of hours before show time, you really see what type of athletes these guys are. You get a glimpse of it in games for the nine innings of play, but watching them field balls, throw, etc., in practice, gives you a better idea what they can do. Last year, it was Lincecum I saw fielding baseballs in the outfield and looking like Willie frickin’ Mays . . . unbelievable catches he was making . . . all nonchalant and relaxed.
Helluva lot of those big arms are slinging hash..
I’ve tired of the Bochy LU bashing and head scratching, I just won’t go there much, anymore. I’m resigned to the fact he plays musical positions every day based on perceived “matchups” and personal histories, etc. What I will say is I think it’s warranted to some extent given the less than spectacular cast of characters, but he goes overboard on it, and he applies the matchup theory selectively. If he has a vet he likes, he’ll ignore a bad or non-descript history and put him in the LU anyway. That clearly went on over the seasons with Rohand in particular. Belt has quite an excellent OBP against LHPs, I think better than against RHPs (someone can look it up, I’m not going to), yet that history, even given the small sample size, seems not to matter. So far this season, Belt will get the rare start against LHPs. When you constantly move players in and out on a daily basis, I think the disruption of their routine is real. Baseball players are very much creatures of habit. So, I’d say If a guy is hot, keep playing him against whoever the pitchers are, right or left. Defensive skill comes into play, sure. So, the same goes for a top prospect that you need to test to find out where his floor and ceiling are. Belt is a potential 1B for the next decade with great glove work, Pill is, at best, a helpful RH bat on a team with RH hitter shortage. Belt should get the playing time for the most part now that Huff is out…
I agree that Bochy has, in the past, played vets for extended periods of time despite long draughts. Actually, most managers manage this way. Look at that list of guys who are hitting under .200. Very few of them have been demoted. And Clown made a good point earlier about the game-2game analysis that we, as fans, perseverate on. Bochy understands the length and grind of the season.
But he’s got younger players this season. He’s continued to play Pagan despite some questionable play in the field and at the top of the LU: Pagan qualifies as a grizzled vet compared to Nate, Belt, Arias, CrAwford, and Burriss. They lack something Pagan, Melky, posey and Panda already have: track record of at least one full year of major league success.
But I must admit that this 3-headed monster at first of Belt-pill-Posey is strange, especially with Huff down. The only reasonable explanation is that Bochy just doesn’t think Belt is ready to consistently contribute across the course of the entire season. With Sanchez now taking some balls T first it makes you wonder why he’s looking to find at bats for Hector and actively not find them for Belt. Maybe Belt fucked Whiteside’s wife or something. 🙂
I’m with you BF on the Hector try out thing at 1B. I WILL scratch my head on that. It makes no sense to me. Has Hector ever played 1B at ANY level? Your concern for defense would seem to be super magnified if Hector were to take 1B. Panda and the rest of the infield haven’t been known lately for throwing perfect waist-high “seeds” right on the bag. Forget just the multiple short hop dig-outs per game, what about.crashing in to field bunts, and running down foul pops down the RF line. What message does Hector taking 1B grounders send to Pill and Belt? “You guys are career 1Bmen, but you better friggin’ hit .375 with dingers, else I’m playing a guy at 1B who hasn’t played there since sandlot time in grade school?” WTF is that? I’m all for Hector playing more, but not at 1B…
“Cogitating” and “perseverate?” We’re kicking around guest hosting for you when your thousand posts are up and we have to come up with blog monologues using these words that I have never seen used before? Sorry, but that’s like one of us guest hosting for the Jay Leno or David Letterman show.
🙂
Ha, that’s funny. I actually use both words regularly in normal conversation– I used perseverate twice today at work.
Bobby Valentine Special tonight–cody Ross batting 4th. I drafted Ross in three leagues, all at the end of the draft–I’m ecstatic with his early season success—just not “clean up hitter for Boston” happy.
Well, what about Keppinger batting 4th 3 times? Somebody here liked it, might have been Denny, not sure.
Makes as much, or more sense, as Rohand leading off…
But one is not relevant to the other.
The first year the results were pretty darn good:
.294 BA .341 OBP .809 OPS.. You listening PaGONE?
With Huff out, there’s no vet card for the bloggers to play now.
That’s not necessary true– the vet bar has just dropped a little as it relates to age and experience. All the guys I listed have had at least one full year of productive major league baseball– the other guys have not and they aren’t getting the slack that PaGone has gotten
So what’s the new age cut off for the man love “accusation”?
Shout out to Ted! Hope you are doing well and your father is recuperating as well. Stop on by and say hello when you get a chance . . . 🙂
Here’s a projection, not a prediction. A possible scenario? Whatevah. Sabes and Bochy know that the Giants minor leagues are bleeding with good catching talent. They are ;positioning to put Posey at 1B pretty much full time starting next year, since they can stick Hector in the starting C spot after this season of “seasoning”. That, plus bring up Tommy Joseph to be backup C in 2013 or at least backup C by mid-2013, and let competition decide whether Hector or Joseph will be the long term catcher. Consequently, they’re letting Belt sink or swim and don’t care much whether they phuck with his mind and swing. They’ll trade him for a pitching prospect at some point this year or the offseason, because the key is keeping Buster around, and they will still have good hitting at the C position. IF they do that, I will predict that in another organization, Belt will take off and be an excellent player. To me, the ultimate scenario would be Buster at 2B a la another Kent, Belt at 1b, with Hector and Joseph at C. Unfortunately, I don’t think Buster has the range and speed to make that work, plus they’re terrified of another ankle injury. Buster’s position options are limited, and that is why I think Belt ultimately gets traded…
Well thought out snarkk, but I personally don’t think Posey is much of a first baseman – now or ever. Catcher is a weak position around MLB and his catching and hitting skills stand out at that position. First base not so much. Actually, he is weak at that position, not even comparable to James Loney, who at least is an excellent fielder. Consequently, he is a tier one MLB catcher, but a less than middle of the pack first baseman.
Posey has shown to date, that he is back from his injury and I think the Giants can’t coddle him (they haven’t as far as I can see) – he’s the catcher and I don’t see a scenario where he moves to another position in my opinion.
Don’t you also disagree with Craig about PaGONE , Steve?
Not certain about what part . . . What sentence Mike? I have to go run a few miles, but I will answer later when I return.
Yeah, Blade I agree and know that Posey is not a real 1Bman, and in comparable batting stats to the traditional 1Bmen, he’s not a typical power guy. But, he’s a key organizational “asset” which with they are not going to mess around. The key is that catching talent in this organization is deep, which is pretty rare.. Neither Hector nor Joseph look to have other positions in their repertoire. Posey can make it work at 1B. I think Belt will ultimately prove expendable unless he just explodes with success; and the way they are handling him, I don’t see how that can happen…..
Craig doesn’t think Pagan should be playing. Weird you missed that. “He’s continued to play Pagan despite some questionable play in the field and at the top of the LU”
Bochy on Sanchez taking ground balls, Posey catching etc…
http://tiny.cc/gruldw
That’s the piece I just read.
What I read was that Hector could conceivably be used some at first in the late innings. I have no idea how that would come about but I’m not as smart about this shit as others. At one time or another the team has said Belt and Pill are both as good as Travis was in the field, so it ain’t for defense. I love the kid and argued that he DID have a chance to make the team- but he’s a good hitting BACK UP catcher, nothing more. Evidently the team is still recyling
the garbage that Belt won’t listen to them about his swing, a swing THEY built…
If you’re using the “Belt won’t listen to them” thing and then call it garbage, how can you not at least consider the fact that there is more to this theory than has come out in the press? A lot of closed door shit doesn’t come out in the press, as you know.
And if you say it’s a swing *they built* and then *they* decided it’s a swing that needs an adjustment, why can’t he just do it? It’s not like he’s a computer that’s been programmed and that’s the end-result that can never be changed or altered. He’s a human being, fucking make adjustments if you’re told to do so…….
If it was as easy to make swing adjustments, we’d have 8 .300 hitters. This routine about, “hey, just change it” shows no knowledge of hitting at all.
well YOU are the one calling it *garbage*. I would think the men who run the Giants who are considered *baseball people* by many, might not think that making an adjustment is a bad idea. You think it’s garbage. They think it’s necessary. Hmmmm, who to go with there. Tough call.
What’s garbage is that I, like the writer at Fangraphs, don’t believe he has refused help. What I’m pointing out beyond that is that it’s fucking hilarious that anyony would think it’s easy to fix swing mechanics.
Why on earth would they play Hector at 1B in late innings? Of a blowout, maybe. Otherwise, that’s pretty nonsensical, when you’ve got Belt who is very good with the glove, and Pill, who is serviceable, at least. Would they play Belt as catcher in the late innings? Seems to me the management is making a case to support a trade of Belt down the road. Gotta bounce, adios…
Hey this Bochy 1B carousel love feast never will have a resolution. Chronicle on Sunday.With Aubrey Huff on the DL with anxiety disorder, Bochy said Arias is an option at first base.”I think the he’d be fine over there,”is Bochy said.”Now I’m talking more double-switch or something like that.”
Jesus why not have some pitchers along with Freddy (if he ever comes back) play 1B as well.I’m sure
Whitey wants that call up as well playing some first base as well.
1B.Nothing like a 25 man roster with 20 firstbasemens
basement’s.
I forget who it was, but someone did suggest Freddie for 1B..
Think it was Craig Twin….In one of his moments thawing out of “Carbonite Freezing”
We both shot that suggestion down.
You saying something like If Freddy can’t play 2B he might as well just retire.
And I said …The last thing we need is a midget over at 1B.
Craig? Really?
Vungo just drove in a run with a solid single to get the Mets on the board in the 7th. The competition between he and PaGone(!) has begun……..
It will end soon enough when Vungo pulls another hammy.Cold weather never was a allie for Vungo and probably the reason along with the coin that Reyes left NY for a much warmer climate in Florida.
Actually, it was a botched grounder by Downs that was ruled a hit. He was robbed of at least a double earlier. I saw both.
if it was a botched grounder they would have called it an error…….
It was what I said it was. Downs tried to field it but deflected off his glove to the second baseman.. It was a chopper that the second baseman would have fielded . It was genereously ruled a hit. Since you said it was a solid single, you obviously didn’t see it.
Colorado 4, LA 2 is the game to watch. (grin)
“Craig doesn’t think Pagan should be playing. Weird you missed that. “He’s continued to play Pagan despite some questionable play in the field and at the top of the LU”
Continuing on . . . Craig says, “Pagan qualifies as a grizzled vet compared to Nate, Belt, Arias, CrAwford, and Burriss. They lack something Pagan, Melky, posey and Panda already have: track record of at least one full year of major league success.” Consequently, that isn’t what I think he is saying at all. Regardless, I’ll let Craig comment if he so chooses, i.e., I wont put words in his mouth or anyone else for that matter . . . Personally, I believe unequivocally that Pagan starting every game gives us the best chance to win, sans rest days and/or unusual match-ups where he has shown no past success (e.g., Larry Walker almost always use to sit when Randy Johnson pitched).
Nothing he says later negates that he said Bochy is playing Pagan despite “questionable play in the field and at the top of the LU”..
You said I didn’t support Bochy playing him. I never said that. Blade understood my post, you didn’t…….
” “He’s continued to play Pagan despite some questionable play in the field and at the top of the LU”
So that means you supported playing him? Okey-Dokey..
“I never said that. Blade understood my post, you didn’t……”
No, he just doesn’t want to disagree with you.
Yep, we all agree that Pagan should play every durn day
despite “questionable play in the field and at the top of the LU”..
Reply
I totally think PaGone should be playing every day (though a Blanco start in his place would hardly be the end of the world) . The quote of mine above is just acknowledging some questionable play he’s had AND the fact that Bochy is continuing to play him because, on this team, he qualifies as a *grizzled vet*.
I’m growing tired of some of the dumb shit that PaGone(!) does but he’s been bringin’ it enough for me to continue to support him starting, as I have since we traded for him.
yes, I know it’s impossible in your world to do anything other than look at everything as black or white (baseball). He HAS had some questionable play in CF and I’d like to see him take more walks. But I totally support him playing every day and hitting at the top of the LU.
That’s not what you said, it’s what you’re saying now. Do you have a video of that “solid single”, BTW?
So is there in rumors yet that CF prospect. Gary Brown is being converted to a 1B?
First they have to convert him to a hitter. Obviously there’s a hole in his swing that he can fix this evening if he’ll just just listen! (he’s hitting .227)
Torres solid single:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2012_04_30_nynmlb_houmlb_1&mode=gameday#gid=2012_04_30_nynmlb_houmlb_1&mode=classic
I didn’t see it. I was commenting on your description of it as a *botched* grounder. A botched grounder is an error, in my opinion……
Here’s the definition of the word “botched”
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/botched
#1: *to ruin through clumsiness*
When discussing baseball, I would assume that people who use this word would be using it to describe an error. You used it to describe it as a *generous hit*.
*fumble*, *bluff* and *blow* are synonyms/also words I would use to describe an error in baseball….
“#1: *to ruin through clumsiness*
He did exactly that. What can’t be argued is that a was a solid single. That was, uh, untrue.
and I said I didn’t see it. I said *solid single*. 1000 apologies for the addition of a single word in my post that could be called a mistake…….
Many plays are botched without an error being called. Another definition is something ruined by ineptitude. PaGONE! has several of those, a misplayed flyball is rarely ruled an error ( unless it’s touched), but it’s botched nonetheless…
PaGone(!) has had several errors due to ineptitude. I don’t know if I’d say *ruined* unless I was talking about an *error*. But whatever, just semantics…..
I just happen to appreciate the good that PaGone(!) is bringing to the team. I also like writing *PaGone(!)* as his nickname though it takes more effort to do so.
When the good outweighs the bad I’ll be the first to let you know. You know, the guy got real close to evening it up after the game winner followed by the lead off shot… then he gets picked off second with one out and Panda and Posey due, then an OLE! on a flyball..
When you stop obsessing about Vungo’s outlier 2010 numbers and stop comparing PaGone(!) to that you might start liking him more. He had an unreal 2010. 2011 sucked. And 2012 looks to be similarly unproductive (talking about Vungo here). But we’ll see, he’s hardly gotten going yet…..
And earlier you said you thought Vongo would be a 4th or 5th outfielder this year. Now you have FINALLY understood why we had to throw Ramirez into the deal to get PaGone(!)…….
I’m assuming Kat’s 7:24 was joking, pretty funny. But from here (which obviously is very far away from what’s going on in Bochy’s mind about 1B), it’s confounding. Hector taking grounders, Bochy talking about Arias could be ok at first…right, anyone else? If I was Belt, I’d be thinkin’ my days are numbered in SF. Ever have a job where the boss keeps talking to other staffers about their interest in … your job? Time to update your CV. Belt doesn’t deserve “more at bats”, he deserves to BE the firstbaseman, spelled now and then by Posey or Pill, etc. Obviously they don’t believe he deserves to be the firstbaseman. Kind of frustrating to not just give him the job and the chance.
I actually agree with this, he should be the first baseman. He makes far more sense right now at first than some combo of Posey/Pill/Hector rotating around the diamond. He obviously has skills and potential and the ONLY thing I ever said was that I didn’t think Belt’s body language looked too hot after several failures at the plate that I witnessed (as did all of you). And I guessed that this was the reason Bochy stopped playing him. I could have been wrong about this because……
……he HAS hit better over the last 10 days or so and since then Huff has hit the DL. Now is the time to get him out there, unless there’s something we don’t know about what’s going on behind closed doors……
At ST I said, the Giants needed to trade a 1Bman. If they weren’t all in on Belt, then trade him (he probably had the best value) or trade Pill or Huff, I really didn’t care at the time.
I still say Buster’s best position would be third base and although Panda is working himself towards a GG 3B he would make a fine LF and Posey would probably do well at third. The argument that Buster doesn’t have the numbers for a corner position are bogus if another position is picking it up (please see Mueller at 3B and Kent at 2B or in this case, Hector behind the plate). Again, if Belt is the guy, the Giants really only have 3B, 2B or LF for Posey going forward. He could probably play well at all three of the positions, but given his time at SS and C, 3B might be the best. I know this kind of change can’t happen this year, but going forward, IF the Giants are all in on Belt, it is the best way to go. For this year it’s mix and match with Hector learning the pitching staff.
you’re right, his best value was b4 the season started. But Sabean did pull 2 rabbits out of the hat when both Dirrrty and Vungo were at their lowest value so if he trades Belt he might still get something good for him. I hope he doesn’t trade him. As I’ve always said, he’s got an upside.
I’ve got no problem with Posey playing 1B whenever he’s not catching — and that’s going to be more frequent than it was pre-injury — mainly because he’s still one of our best hitters and should be playing as much as possible. Among the regulars, he’s tied for first in HRs, tied for 2nd in RBI and leads the all-important OPS category. I’ll live with the dropoff in fielding.
well if Belt is going to hit like everyone is claiming he’s going to, then the smart move (IMO) is the start Belt at first and Posey at C. There are many angles we are probably missing on why Belt isn’t starting. Not every piece of info gets released to the press.
Why do you keep saying as “everyone is claiming he’s going to”? You have also said he’s going to be a star. Anyway, we’ll see soon enough if they’re still displeased with Belt. If he doesn’t start against RHers-ALL of them, he might as well just tell his agent to get him out. If they actually believe Posey/Sanchez is better than Posey/Belt, they should just turn in whatever credentials they got as “baseball people”.
Agree, as I said, it’s confounding. And as Craig said, could be something going on we don’t know about. If it’s just being stubborn on management’s part, it’s stupid. I don’t give Bochy much shit about anything, trust him on most matters, but not this one.
But Craig has *repeatedly* said Bochy knows what’s he doing in sitting Belt.
I don’t think Belt or his agent are in any position to make demands. As I’ve said before, he should keep his mouth shut, do what he’s told, be a good teammate and try to make the most of his playing time. BTW, Belt was my pre-season pick to lead the team in homers…
Any player is in a position to make a trade demand. And maybe you should pay attention: he IS making the most of his playing time.
When I first saw Belt, I envisioned a young Todd Helton. I don’t think Belt will ever quite hit for the average Helton always hit, but that was the kind of potential that seemed to be there, and it seemed the team agreed. That’s what’s confounding about it. He’s only going to be able to prove if he can meet that potential by having the job and playing almost every day, even against lefties, for chrissakes, for which his numbers are good. Personally, as much as I and everyone loved Huff, I’m kind of hoping he doesn’t come back… as Craig said before the season even began, the team really doesn’t need him, and he needs to work on his life issues without the stress of trying to perform on the field. Huff coming back will just confound the issue even more.
“If it’s just being stubborn on management’s part, it’s stupid.” I don’t think there’s a stat I can refer to here, but I think this is 110% accurate.
I can see Belt having a JT Snow like career. Belt will be 34 in 10 years, and probably well into his decline. It is just idiotic not to be playing him right now.
Yeah, James, I envisioned Helton, but would certainly “settle” for JT…
So the next five pitchers against are R,R,R,R,L. Over under on Belt starting 3 of those games. I say under.
He *should* get all 5, IMO, maybe 4 including against the lefty…
It should never have been about Huff/Belt- until Aubrey’s problem arose, he should have been in left, Belt at first, just as it was opening day. Huff was playing his way out, but none of us have any idea how this problem has affected him and for how long. If he’s cleared by the mental health professionals, he should definitely return-to left field.