Belt is The Man and Pagan Needs to Dial it Down a Little
Brandon Belt past 500 plate appearances last night and all signs are pointing to him being a critical piece in the line up for the 2014 season. Aside from Buster’s bomb, Belt was the man last night doing what we will always need him to do: drive in runs. His two hits were brilliant swings, the first one beating a breaking ball like he knew it was coming and the second one driving the ball impressively in the opposite direction for the walk off win in the 10th inning.
On a team that has had no identity since Pagan went down in May, Belt has stepped up and gone beyond just putting up a nice OPS. But I was surprised to see where he ranked vs NL first basemen on bb%.
Votto is walking at an unnecessary rate but it works on that team with so many other hitters in their line up. Plus, as the identified team superstar in the line up, there are times he just has to take his walks and eat them. We need Belt to do more than take walks and he’s doing those things this year, especially since he sat down for a few games and had brett Pill take over the reigns at 1st base. Doesn’t that seem like it was a dream?
Side note on NL 1st base power: Outside of Goldy, this group is hitting home runs at an underwhelming rate. I’m not sure if I can ever remember a limper collection of first basemen in the NL, at least when it comes to home runs. Regardless, Belt is having a very productive year. He’s taken the next step and while I don’t think he has another step in him I also didn’t think he had the step he just took in him. But where he is right now is a good place to be. We are lucky to have him.
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Angel Pagan:
Did anyone catch Pagan’s post game dive attempt on top of a group of STANDING TALL, JUMPING players? That’s quite a leap to try to make (he failed, only getting about 2/3 the way up the *mountain of men* before giving up and coming down). If he was looking to re-injure himself he gave it a pretty nice go with that stupid move. I’m guessing the surgeon who preformed the work on his hammy a few months ago would probably frown on him trying to leap to the top of a group of standing, moving men.
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
the celebration stuff is increasingly ridiculous, including Pagan trying to leap on guys standing up, but it was also evidence Giants players still want to win games. Bochy let TL go 8 last night and day before he brought in heavy artillery from the pen with lopez casilla romo and those two finished up last night too.
I don’t mind watching kids in the OF on getaway day or seeing Dunning or Hembree in there occasionally. I can also understand giving Scut and others a couple days off a week. but again, if you enjoy watching SF win games, there is no reason to just chill these guys and let them spend the rest of the month riding an exercise bike for 2-3 hours while a game is going on. If you just want to watch tryouts of prospects/suspects, well…
Giants have to be encouraged about Belt and Pagan, and about most of the pitching (Vogs, I dunno) over the last month or so. I don’t mind losing the torture games as much if they are well pitched and well played in the field–SF won that way in 2010 when everyone else thought they needed more hitters and couldn’t compete.
Good point about Pagan Flavor. I actually lost my PC feed last night during the 6th or 7th inning, so was following the ESPN Gamecast dots and they don’t jump up or down, much less show any emotion. You need to get in Mr. Peabody’s Wayback machine and re-visit the Reggie Jackson era, along with the subsequent era of Ricky Henderson. Great players, but terrible hot dogs. In short, this is where “hot dogging” started in my opinion.
By the by, speaking of hot dogs, I had indicated that there were a half-dozen threads from the Flap Fest, and one of them is a follow up thread/story on the hot dog you had at the game compared to the one shown in the Flapper Photo Bucket. 😉
I’ll get the 2 hot dog pics together and post them later. San Dawg sent me his video to my phone but I’m not able to post it anywhere.
That’s a shame, because the cinematography on that video is outstanding.
Great thread, Flavor. I have to run (damned 3 hour meeting) and then another one hour one this afternoon, but will provide my thoughts on this later. Make it an awesome day, Flappers.
there were some comments last night about ‘not caring what the stats say’ about pagan-well, we should. the pagan we’ve had since his return is hitting .333 with a .368 opb and over .800 ops- and good defense. that’s a new guy, not the pagan from earlier this year. the stats absolutely show the difference- and so does the sniff test, he’s been far and away a better player since his return. hopefully it’s a harbinger for 2014. the 2012 pagan is crucial to the team making a rebound.
Yep. That would have been my comment, Twin. And I get it…stats DO matter. The point I have tried to make a number of times is that I believe outside of the stats, that there are intangibles that Pagan brings to the dance (call it spark, vet presence, etc.). And I stand by that…I believe his being around and the way he plays the game positively adds to the team. There is no tangible way to “measure” this with statistics, but I believe it to be true, and other Flappers have agreed.
Ideally you get him playing with fire and flair as he almost always does, AND you have to quality stats to go along with it.
i understand your position, especially with his last play before his absence being the walk off inside the park job. but i’m sorry, *performance* sparks a ball club and he did not deliver that before his injury. what is being missed his peformance for most of last year. if the pagan of april and may of 2013 had been the pagan that we see now, we’d be in for the probability of 3 loooooonnnnng years to go. that’s why i’m glad to see a better pagan in september.
Don’t disagree re: performance sparking a club, but IMO, it is not the only thing that can supply a spark. A guy who is slumping (as Pagan did) can also provide it via his play in the field, the way he interacts with younger players, what he brings to the dugout, etc. And I don’t believe you can discount that either. If you disagree, we can respectfully agree to disagree.
as to belt, this is his 4th professional season, i absolutely expect him to continue to get better. maybe they’ll leave him alone now, he’s had more make overs than joan rivers. and he’s done a hell of a lot of listening for a guy who doesn’t listen.
I didn’t think Pagan’s jump into the pile was any more extreme than what the rest were doing. However, I agree with everyone here who thinks these celebrations are way over the top. If the Kendrys Morales injury a couple years ago wasn’t enough to make the players tone it down, I guess nothing will. Either these players have very short memories, or they’re just young and stupid. I lean toward the latter, if that play by the idiot Broncos linebacker last week was any indication.
Finally, something to look forward to: The 2014 schedule.
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/schedule/index.jsp?c_id=sf#m=4&y=2014&calendar=DEFAULT
Yep…saw this Mac. Thanks for sharing.
Belt to me is a latter-day Matt Williams. A fairly mild mannered guy who was yoyo-ed relentlessly by the team. Matt hardered to it, and eventually flourished. My hope is Belt flourishes here. These last few weeks may have finally cemented him into place. That’s my hope anyway.
Yeah, it was a bit surreal to say the least meeting everyone for reals after so much time just shooting the breeze (and the barbs!) on the interwebs all these years. I didn’t get to spend as much time with the gang as I would have liked, so next year, no family. . . ! 🙂
I agree on the time spent. Next year I am flying solo for the Flapalooza. Regardless, it was a kick-ass time, and awesome to put faces with names. And the shirts…off the damned hook.
I made that same comment to James at the game (about Belt and Matt Williams) and he damn near threw his Manhattan in my face! I agree with you! ( Actually, I think James agreed with the personality part, but was quick to point out that he feels Belt’s numbers have always been pretty good and Matt’s were horrible when he first came up)
Matt got jerked around a lot because he could not hit a curve to save his fucking life. And we all know the hitter he eventually became. Belt will be fine, Matt Williams comparisons notwithstanding.
Somebody was doing an amusing Matt Williams rub-his-chin-on-shoulder batting stance imitation in the middle of the Public House the other day. It may have been Chuck–who was also sporting a Williams jersey. It was pretty funny. Some of the memories from Saturday are a bit hazy.
There it is. My first gay-ass smiley face.
Kendrys broke his leg, right? Someone else, about a week after Morales did that, tore ligaments in his ankle or knee or some shit. Can’t remember who that was.
I agree with what most have said in regards to Belt. I hope they just leave him the hell alone, and let him play 1st base regularly. I too think he will only get better with time. Was awesome to see him come through twice in the clutch last night (coming through in the clutch has been something this team has struggled mightily with all year).
And on the celebrations, I agree…they need to be toned way the hell down. I am surprised that Bochy, Sabes, etc. don’t say something about it. Is it going to take someone getting seriously hurt in one of these melees to bring about the change? I sure hope the hell not.
Fwiw.
Overall, G’s are 6-5 since Angel returned. In the games he has started, they are 3-5. He did get come off the bench in Sun win.
Oddly, the games they scored 8 and 13, he didn’t play. In the other nine, they have not scored more than 3 runs in any game.
Well what the hell, I guess that settles it…the reason for the “team’s” inability to score must be Pagan. 😉
My theory on the over-the-top celebrations is that the baseball players think it makes them look as cool as the football players and basketball players. I think baseball players have a slight inferiority complex when they compare themselves to football and basketball players, as far as “hipness” is concerned.
Ragging on Pagan repeatedly for his statistical performance over less than 2 months of the start of the season and yet giving others a full year before assessing them is hardly fair treatment for a confirmed team leader like Crazy Horse……
I think everyone agrees with that statement, except . . . umm . . . uhh . . . one Flapper. 😉
However, I might as well fall on my sword with regard to Belt. I gave him zero, nada, zippo, donut hole, no mas chance of ever amounting to much. I have no idea how he will do next year, especially after the Giants as a whole surprised me with their face plant this year. Nevertheless, I have been totally wrong about him this season. He has been the most valuable player the last month and something days in my mind.
Couldn’t agree more.
i would not point out his subpar performance before his injury if not for the *repeated* nonsense that his subpar numbers were not of significance. a lead off hitter with a .314 obp- before the injury- and poor defense is not the guy who has -so far- returned from injury.we have the guy that we saw for most of last last year. there’s really nothing to argue about with any of that.
Well, as I said above, I never said they were not of significance…and again, I believe a guy can be slumping but brings energy to the team through other means. I’m done with this one…
well, he’s back, as and i posted before , i wanted to see him back this year in the hope that he would show more of his performance of 2012. so far he has, and i’m delighted. if hoping he’d be better is ‘ragging’ on him, so be it. but i’m all for moving on…
Me too Twin…it’s all good. And I do appreciate your knowledge and comments. Even when we disagree.
Post All-Star game, Belt is the best hitter on the team, in several categories. Has .906 OPS (top) 5 HRs (tied with Pence), .519 SLG (Pence .484). 3rd in RBI with 17 (Panda 30, Pence 25, Posey 14). Second in BA .325 (Pence .330, excluding Pagan with just his meager # ABs coming back so far). I don’t know the number, but I’d guess he has the most walk off hits, too…
San Dawg, that would be snarkk with the batting stance imitation I believe.
Nope, it was Unca Chuck…
Seriously? OK, I didn’t drink Saturday (or the last couple of decades plus). Who put the “mickey” in my diet Pepsi?
*performance* sparks a ball club
That would be wrong too Twin. You can say, “performance” and/or inspirational play sparks a ball club and I would be all right with that statement.
To attempt to say that inspiration plays little or no part – would be disingenuous. Moreover, no one here is buying it. Pagan, Pence, and Scutaro were largely responsible for transforming the 2012 Giants into workmanlike, lunch pail-carrying winners with their leadership, grit, hustle, aggressiveness and attitude. That has been missing for much of this season. Yeah, performance gets it done, but I can cite numerous examples, e.g., Kirk Gibson, Bucky Dent, Jim Abbott, Jackie Robinson, etc., where just their presence or a singular play was a spark to their team. As Chi said, you can’t quantify it, but it is there.
i don’t post based on what i think other flappers will agree or disagree with. obviously you don’t either. look, i”m not getting to an argument about ‘chemistry’ and ‘inspiration’ and who has it and who doesn’t. moreover, i’ve never said that a player can’t provide inspirational performance- *all* of the players on the 2012 team did. and they’ve all done it this year. just less than we would like. pagan’s walk off hr was inspirational, petit’s game was was inspritional. timmy’s no hitter was inspirational- much of his performance has not been. it *is* performance that inspires. scooter, pagan, and pence ( to a much lesser degree) provided great play- that inspires. but i don’t confuse *performance* that inspires to be a trait that only select players have. so it’s not accurate that i don’t believe that inspiration plays little or no part- in fact, i’d say that i believe in it more than most. a guy like abbott is certainly a different matter- he was an inspiration just to have achieved what he did despite his handicap. but we differ in mostly in that i believe that all mlb players possess and have shown the ability to inspire by inspirational performances. it’s a little bit like the ‘clutch hitter’ argument- there’s no such animal but all big leaguers are ‘clutch’ performers in that they have overcome great odds and obstacles to become among the few who are the best in their profession.
Well said by both of you, Steve and Twin. Really good points by both.
Think we.might see an Adrianza start tonight with the lefty throwing?
nope, guess not.
1. Angel Pagan (S) CF
2. Marco Scutaro (R) 2B
3. Brandon Belt (L) 1B
4. Buster Posey (R) C
5. Hunter Pence (R) RF
6. Pablo Sandoval (S) 3B
7. Joaquin Arias (R) SS
8. Juan Perez (R) LF
9. Ryan Vogelsong (R) P
Belt hitting against a LHP? Shocking. For the season, he’s only hitting .275 with an OPS of .775 against lefties (3rd highest OPS on the squad of hitters with > 100 ABs against lefties)…
I’m glad Crazy Horse, Scutaro, Pence etc are still playing. I’m all in on our Questfor4th. If we finish in last place it will get brought up all the time forever anytime a WS team sucks the next year.
Look at it this way: no one remembers who finished 2nd, right? Well, no one remembers who finished 2nd to last either. I want us to be that team and to accomplish that we won’t get there with the scrap players we just added from Fresno.
belt’s been playing against nearly all lefties lately…
and i’m also glad that pagan, scooter, and pence are playing. but for those looking for a major shakup, if they sign pence we may just have a new and younger platoon in left field, with the rest of the starting 8 remaining as it is now.
Exactly what I’m afraid of…
well, it’s not neccassarily what i hope for but the changes i’d make if i were king wouldn’t be popular, either.
What are those changes, Twin (if you were King)?
I can always tell when the end of the season is near, everyone is giving their opinion on who played up to their capabilities and who did not. lets face it the whole team played pretty poorly all season long. There were those who did play quite well, but over all it was a pretty dismall year. I am not so much disappointed that they are not going to the WS, as I am very disappointed they were not very competitive. I wish they were in a a position to at least knock the Da Bums out of the playoffs. I always liked the end of the year where either the Dodgers were knocking the Giants out of the playoff or vice versa. Made the end of the year wourth watching. this year, not much to watch, except the guys who got brought up. that is my take, enjoy gentlemen. wish I could have been there Saturday.
I have NEVER, nor will I EVER, like it when the Bums knock the Giants out.
Where’s James? Yeah, the whole NL race thing is kinda disappointing. The central is up for grabs, but all it means is 3 teams get in from the central. the only thing to determine is the order.
I am very much looking forward to the replay next year. It will have kinks in it, since Bud’s in charge. But, last night the Giants got a very good break with that DP late, that really was not, the Rocks got screwed at first. It will not be a surprise to me that there will be a TON of reversed 1b safe/out calls next season…
I still want to know what they’re gonna do with the neighborhood rule. As you know, I wanted to ask Montague this after he got off the air. Unfortunately I couldn’t get to him, there were 3 or 4 older babes lined up to rub their tits all over him in long hugs.
I coulda talked to him on the way out but he didn’t look like talking *neighborhood rule* ball after all that…..
He seems like a very cool dude though .
Well, they are going to have to call it right from now on. In other words, they have to pay attention.
They’re paying attention, they know when a shortstop isn’t touching the bag when he takes the actual throw. It’s an accepted part of the game. For good reason, it saves defenseless shortstops from getting their knees blown out. There are some examples of the infielder being like 4 feet from the bag when they take the throw. Are those going to get overturned? How about the ones 2-3 feet from the bag? How about 6 inches?
It’s a huge part of replay that’s going to have to get sorted out. You can’t overturn the guy who’s 2 feet off the bag and not the guy who’s an inch off it, right?
I don’t think saving the 2nd basemen has anything to do with the neighborhood play. They already protect 2nd baggers by not letting runners go over the bag to hit them and the runners need to be able to touch the bag on a slide,
The ‘hood play is the 2nd baseman coming across the bag without the ball. The ump is looking at the feet of the fielder to see if hits the bag. They aren’t necessarily looking for the ball in the mitt.
In other words, I’ve seen plenty of times where the ump has called the runner at 2nd safe even if a play is fairly close. 4′ off warrants a safe call. That is a blown call every time. A couple inches? Whatever. Off the bag is off the bag.
whoever is in charge of the graphics probably shouldn’t have put helton’s home and away splits up while the boys were blathering on about helton being a hall of famer.
tho I didn’t see either of them, for the second night in a row a Giants RH power hitter(oxymoron or not) pulled one into the corner and out the yard, something I’ve seen just all too rarely at ATT this year. Hey if Pence can hit one 500 freaking feet in Sherpaville or wherever it was, he can sure make it over the 349 sign dead corner.
Another encouraging sign, along with the nice running grab by Perez in LF.
Let’s see how long Vogs goes.
Vogs has shown enough since he came back that his option will get picked up in a nanosecond. And I’m 100% supportive of that. 6 mil? Shit, we’re paying Zito 7 mil to GO AWAY. And we need a 4/5. Voggy is gold in that role and if we somehow get to the playoffs next year we have his chainsaw gamer attitude to ride!
He has hit a wall sometime 2nd or (last time) 3rd time through order since he has returned. Maybe he’s just not quite all the way back to normal arm strength/health.. His numbers are still pretty unsightly tho, even for a 4/5.
i agree 100 percent with bf.
before tonight he’s 1-1, 3.57 in 6 starts since he returned.
uh, i *did* say before tonight 😉
that ‘power’ wager is still a long shot but not as much as it was a couple weeks ago. pence/belt/sandoval/posey are now at 63. btw, i will be paying up if i lose, with a signed andres torres card. if i recall, the o/u is 79 1/2. is that right ?
In a rare quick Giants game ‘turn-around’ for me, I’ll be at tomorrow’s game. That’s a game I already had tickets to before the Flapalooza date got set. That’s a quick trip back to the yard! And I’m not even rested up from the last trip. (grin)
Very cool. Love midweek day games. Like playing hooky.
Vogs is running out of gas . . .
Bochy trying to get him the win. Big mistake.
he was just trying to wake everybody up. it worked.
Oh. Fuck.
Even the outs were line-drives.
sorry, you guys can have Vogs. Once again, just like Kruk said about his last outing, he runs out of gas early, leaves pitches up and gets his ass hammered. tulo cracked the last one right at Sando. Cuddyer hit one where you got to have a ticket to catch.
His unsightly 5.60 ERA ain’t going down any tonite either. F this guy and his $6 mil option.
well, this is 3 starts of 7 since he returned where he hasn’t gone 6 or more. the 4 have been ‘quality starts’. considering the alternatives, i think they’ll excercise his option. obviously his remaining starts will influence that decision. but i think they’d do it if the decision had to be made now. imo.
Yeah, but they are playing in Mount Sherpa . . . Umm, wait a sec . . . scratch that last comment. 🙂
Vogie’s still a bit rusty, but his outings should get better and longer, If not, I’m with you.
i think it’s right nice of us to make the sherpas feel at home tonight…
The visions of 4th place dancing in my head were a bit premature apparently.
Machi on the other hand should try pitching with it. . . .
as bad as it’s been, getting cuddyer could turn out to be the out of the game..
nitey night. i’m going to catch the rest of this one tv only.
Wow. Stellar defense once again.
And again. Shouldn’t Belt call Kickham off the play?
Christ, every time I think they look halfway decent, they start selling Buicks.
Nite, Twin.
Belt continues his clutch hitting.
Rally killer Posey’s up.
And out. Can’t get the ruin from 3rd.
Is there anybody out there?
Pink Floyd
One more memory about The Flapalooza. Dude in the Public House sporting a–wait for it–fucking Rowand jersey
Now back to our game
Hah! Missed that, Ted. Hard not to ‘accidentally’ spill a coke on that!
“Oh, sorry dude…..”
PENCE!!!
SAFE!!!! Pence is smokin’
Cool. Pence tied it up
It’s Cuddyer vs. Pence Night.
Feck me, Cuddyer. Just feck me into kindling wood.
I’ve been under the weather all day with some fever/cold crap that I must have gotten from Snarkkette #2. I was in bed and fell asleep when SF was up 6-0. Now it’s 8-8. Check that, 9-8 with Romo giving it up. Why didn’t we sign Cudeyer? I must have missed a few things. My head hurts, G’nite…
Oshkoshbegosh. This be not looking good
Don’t hafta winnit. Just put the ball in play
Walked him. Scutaro time
Well, the good news is there won’t be extra innings.
Uhm….6-0 lead and the Giants blow it
Hi, Ethel, meet the 2013 Giants
Of course, the good news is, they can still be in 2nd place before the season runs out. Behind, oh 12 or 14 games.
Fuck it. Pence looked great, hit the 20 HR plah-tow. Scutatarian had a good game. And if I drink more wine, I might have a really satisfying bowel movement tomorrow.
Goodnight, gentlemen (question mark)
Thanks BF for the kudos on my man Belt. I DO (definitely do) see another step for him.
Still clinging on to the rare flashes of brilliance this team shows me every week (or so) 2012 lives!
Go Gigantes! (into that long off-season of rest and regeneration)