Play The Kids
I love this:
While I definitely lean more towards being *politically correct* than not, there is one thing I’ve been doing a slow burn about for years: the wussification of young baseball talent. I’ve gotten over how the arms are babied, there’s enough evidence to suggest that’s the best route to go. What I do not and will never get is the way we baby young talent in general. You don’t want to start their clock early, fine. But none of that is affected by playing in ST games. I’d bring up ALL my blue chip talent and play them RIGHT AWAY vs other teams major league players. Of course the teams don’t do that because they don’t want the player to fail and have it deflate their delicate psyche. Man, fuck that. These are grown ass men. And yes, 19 is grown up. Will he grow up more as he ages? Of course. But you need to be able to handle adversity to succeed in life. Getting blown away by a major leaguer shouldn’t ruin you for life especially if you have the tools to make it. And what if the kid can handle it? That’s how you find out and maybe we get ourselves on a phenom that we might otherwise have had to wait years on.
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
The teams that are succeeding are not babying there top players. Only the Giants are.
Acuna Soto Pederson betts sano Buelhler and many more were brought up to MLB early, and had been in spring training before that. Ramos not in big camp is lame…
Not enough time to research exact ages but as a fantasy player for 20+ years ( NL only league) I can tell you the young Giants players are never a target because they won’t get brought up and won’t play if they are….You could say Posey was the exception, but he wasn’t young after 4 years of college.
“On June 10, 1944, 15-year-old Joe Nuxhall becomes the youngest person ever to play Major League Baseball when he pitches in a game for the Cincinnati Reds. Nuxhall threw two-thirds of the ninth inning in an 18-0 loss to the St. Louis Cardinals; he was pulled only after one wild pitch and allowing five runs on five walks and two hits. The game was played during World War II, when it became common for adolescent and older players to fill in for big leaguers fighting overseas.”
He looks like he’s 35.
That’s the 1963 Topps card, he turned 35 that season, so close enough.
Except the idea you learn something about a kid facing ST pitching isn’t accurate. Most everyone is just trying to get loose or working on one pitch in particular so results are mostly meaningless. Plus hitting in AZ is way different than hitting at Oracle; Krukow has said there are Arizona HRs that only carry well there.
Realize too Kapler is trying to finalize a ML OF and his bosses brought in a bunch of vet guys to complicate that (probably to avoid the disaster Z created for OF to start last season)— Ruf Pence B Ham to add to Slater Yaz Dick Davis Shaw Rickard yada yada. Ramos hasn’t seen much pitching above A ball in San Jose and the Cal league. He might work out but he is NOT the next Acuna, yet anyway.
All great points 👍
lot of talk about Dubon playing OF this season too, so he has to get some ST experience out there if that is part of the plan once season starts.
All true, and I agree with Flav, good points, but getting them ABs in ST is one more data point they have on the kids that they would not have otherwise. There needs to be a balance between fielding a solid OF, and also evaluating the kids, IMO.
Play ’em. Joe Nuxhall (a fellow Connecticutite, I believe) is a good example. That dreadful first outing did not ruin a decent career, capped by a longtime announcing gig in Cincy.
Some bathroom reading for Spring Training: http://amzn.to/1iP9Hd9
A wonderful read…highly recommended. (I do not believe I ever reviewed the book on Amazon…need to fix that.)
My favorite of your books is “Chasing Willie Mays,” Pawlie.
I forgot Duggar and he likely gets long look at being CF going forward, and if that’s a fail gets waived or traded off somewhere. -Nothing wrong imo with going all kids all the time for the OF during 2020 season to see what you have and who out of the dozen guys here can play at this level.
And Ramos should be up at some point though likely not as everyday player as corner OF. He will have to adjust to that, getting limited ABs and in there 3-4 times a week. I think that is large part of what Kapler will be trying to figure out—who if anyone is an everyday player and who needs to be platooned.
Ramos? What, and take ABs away from Jamie Westbrook, a minor league 2B who I guess Farhan wants to try in the OF and/or Drew Robinson an OFer who has played a bit in the Inf. I doubt either of those two stiffs make it past the first cut, but they received invites.
I hope they don’t screw with Dubon’s head giving him a look in CF.The kid is a natural infielder and very instinctive in his decision making playing 2nd and can fill in nicely at SS as well.
They have a shitload of outfielders to siphon thru, Dubon shouldn’t be one of them.Hell they have 4 Centerfielders now in Davis,Duggar,Yaz,and Ham to look at, that should be plenty..
I think the idea is he’d be part of the RH platoon line up for OF and Giants could use Flores and Solano to cover 2b and SS. I think this is a Dodger thing for what they do with Chris Taylor and Kike Hernandez.
While limited, it will not be completely new territory for the kid. He started five games in CF in the AZ Fall League in 2016. He has predominantly played SS to date. Followed by 2B and SS.
Yah, that’s what makes this ST so funky, like Bozo said there are all these odd off season pick ups that only add confusion. Why bother with old guys?
another thing that complicates evaluating anyone is the inflated stats from minors using juiced ball last year, especially Coast League.
Slater in AAA had .500 slugging, .965 OPS and 12 bombs in 240 ABs. For the Giants the OPS was .750 and he hit 5 HRs. also finished the season with awful September where he went 6-47 with 19 Ks.
Shaw had .500 slugging in tough AA ball pitchers league then .600 slugging in Sac with .868 OPS. He hits LH but has raked at minor league level, with abundant power while playing OF and 1b. I’d like to see him get a decent shot, just seems doubtful.
You’re bringin’ your A game today WillieD these are all great points
MR. CROWLEY (said in my best ozzie voice) knows his shit. This is a good article.
72 players in camp, dat dere is a lot of folks to keep an eye on.
I like that Crowley included this minor league blog link, this list here has a lot of those guys not named Bart or Ramos on it, who are trying to catch on.
http://giantfutures.com/2020/02/the-prospect-round-up-2-13-20-grading-the-new-minor-players/
Good read. Thanks for sharing, Flav.
Love snarkk’s comments, and good thread Flav. I agree that the pussy-footing around with young talent is BS. Play the kids.
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/heliot-ramos-could-still-get-some-time-giants-spring-training
Some? Give the kid a long rope and see where it goes.
This year should be PREDOMINANTLY about playing the kids and seeing who are keepers and who needs to “hit the road jack.” (No offense to Johnny-Jack, our clown in residence.)
No offense taken, now if you had said, who are keepers and who needs to jack off…
lulz…
It’s all about the FA clock. They can couch it however they want but it’s all about controlling the players as long as possible.
Which ticks me off because they’re 2 most exciting players to watch Dubon&Davis both have options to be on the Sac train.Yeah give them their AB’s but not in Sacramento at 23&25 years old!
Can’t believe they’re is 72 players in camp and you have to trim 46 guys?
Hell they have what seems like more players in camp then football teams have?
26 players:
Let’s say 13 pitchers
2 catchers(Posey and a scrub)
7 Infielders Belt,Crawford,Longoria,Dubon,Flores,Sanchez,Solano…. That leaves room for only 4 outfielders and you have to assume Pence&Dickerson and Yaz are locks?
So 1 spot left between Davis,Ham,Slater,Shaw,Duggar,Ruf,Rikkard (sp who cares)something has to give? you don’t want just 4 outfielders especially if 2 of them are old&slow(Dick&Pence) maybe Sanchez gold glove,are Solano gold bat start in Sac?And then theirs Panda when he’s ready to go, that’s another spot somebody will get dumped..
I think the mix will more likely be six IFers, and five OFers (especially if Dubon is not a serious part of the RH-hitting OF plan, and with Dick in the OF mix, and his propensity for getting hurt).
26?
that’s the new active roster # this season
Wasn’t Miguel Cabrera 19 when they beat us and went on to win a World Series???
Huh. Didn’t know they raised the limit.
Yeah like my alcohol intake limit was raised starting the New Year🥃🎉🍺🍻Cheers!
Looking at the roster options underlines the point even further that signing Pence makes no bloody sense…
Damm right GH!
No need for a 37 year old cheerleader on a team that’s going to lose 100 games. Taking AB’s are even a demotion for Jaylin Davis to Sac is plain horseshit manure to me.Get real like other teams and start your future not your past..
I hope Crowley is wrong and Dubon isn’t sent out. He seems to be guy with most upside over others. Solano is older guy and Sanchez hasn’t ever been much of a hitter. Leave one of them off and there is room for another OF.
However hope he’s right and they do get enough pop and improvement from Belt to increase likelihood he can be traded. Kapler is raving about him again. “We value his approach at the plate so much and I think it’s going to play very well for him.”
The Flap reacts to how Z/Harris/Kapler are running Spring Training.
About the same for Sabean and Boch, even when they were winning championships. Wait til you see my next post.
“Why do we play the game?”
According to Pavlovic, this was a question one of the Giants had for Herm Edwards today.
So, the first week of Spring Training and the Giants have already brought in a motivational speaker and we have at least one player who doesn’t even know what he’s playing for and/or why he’s at Spring Training. This is going to be one long ass year, when does Zaidi’s contract run out again?
that player is just razzing Edwards. That’s from a viral speech he made years ago
My bad.
lol. That’s gotta be 20 years old,when Edwards was coaching the Jets.
I’m getting a feeling some Flappers may want Zaidi to fail, or at least won’t be too unhappy if he does. I hope I’m wrong…
“You play the game to win!”
Nothing else matters!
You play to win that piece of shit scrap metal trophy the Commissioner calls it!!
Nothing else matters but that piece of shit junk!!!
lulz!
this dude found another gear IN THE AIR
I’m taking a break for a few weeks. I’ll check back here sometime in March after the Giants have some games under their belts. Ciao…
bozo- Don’t worry about it, they’re holding this guy back for the June swoon.
Pop Fisher to Hunter Pence:
People at your age don’t start baseball they retire!
lot of great college b-ball going tonite. USF currently up 9 on the road at half vs. Zags, who only have 22 points lowest total of season.
No one here hopes Z fails and Giants suck, I don’t believe that. He has taken a very curious route this off season, and as a result it seems unlikely SF will be very competitive. Him and Harris built this, so whatever happens, it’s their record. Things could have been done differently than only signing likes of inferior older players like Pence Gascan Smyly yada yada while letting some good players walk. Could be a long season.
I am not a fan of bringing in whole crop of new guys for couple weeks and then running them back out when they suck. If your scouting is doing its job then it should be obvious from the start that guys like Kratz or Gennett didn’t have it and did not deserve to take up a roster spot. Seems like the lazy way to do it–oh X is available? Let’s bring him in and see if he has anything left.
and i’d say the same thing about Pence. what is the point of acquiring young players like Davis and Dubon along with the players who did well at AAA Sac, then adding in multiple older average to below average players to compete for their same position?
By the time Zaidi might “fail,” there won’t be any old schoolers left, and all they’ll do is bring on another Zaidi. There is no going back.
Finding players in their mid-20s who have established themselves, who will help provide the illusion of competitiveness in the near term, and who are still likely to be productive a few years from now was never going to happen. So, platooning a combo of cheap and sunken cost veterans you can’t trade could at least give you a glimpse of the happy illusion, if that’s something you value.
Yeah I’ve mentioned these points too Willied.
I get their stuck with Craw,Longo,Belt,Posey,Shark,and Cueto due to past management blunders, but know reason at all to keep adding to the mess by bringing back Pence&Panda and blocking while they’re still young Jaylin Davis maybe even the 3B Zach Green? Did they already give up on him?Bottom line they still have the oldest team in baseball and they apparently feel happy about that😫
I somewhat disagree on the “stuck with” in regards to Belt and Cueto. If both have decent years, I could see them generating some trade interest, especially if the Giants are in a position to eat some of the salary, and I do believe they are in that position.
LAME!!!!
So why did they sign Wilmer?
Flores is a good get, as part time player who can be moved around and smash LHP. I’d have been OK if they had unloaded Belt and played Flores part time at 1b with another LH platoon guy, or just given Shaw a shot.
“Illusion of competitiveness” unlikely to be a factor til 2022, or year 4 of Plan Z.
It is the 4-pronged approach of sucking during a rebuild.
1. Sign past heroes for the casual fan (Pence Panda)
2. Play the Bore Core and hope against hope they do something (you know who)
3. Sign marginal talent and hope for the best (Flores, Smyly, etc )
4. Play the kids when 1-3 fail.
Nice summation, Chuckles*
*Nickname stolen from Twin
Like The Who Song goes “The kids are alright”
Play them!
Your going to drop close to 100 games, why do it with retreads? Put some young treads on and be aggressive atleast.
Lol Kapler calls Belt “The Assassin”, Am I missing something here? He’s a guy that’s never hit 20 HR’s are knocked in 100 RBI’s at a position that usually does.Far from Assassin statuses in my book..
HBD, flav!!!
First ST pitch for Los Gigantes is tomorrow against the hated bumbinos.
I am just ready to hear some baseball over the airwaves, and to see how the Zcrew begins to whittle-down that 72 players in camp.
PLAY BALL, bitches!
It’s supposedly on tape delay on the MLB Network at 6:00 PM Pacific Time tomorrow. (Don’t quote me on that.) 🙂
I’ve learned that the Spring Training listings on the MLB Network’s schedule are not always 100% accurate.
Happy Birthday to the big guy, the one who makes this place rumble and roar.
Hope your day is awesome Flavor!
Happy birthday, BF!
Happy Birthday BF 🎉🍻🎊🎂🥃
The utmost leader of the insane asylum!
Barely even lukewarm support for Huff from Posey.
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/buster-posey-reacts-giants-not-inviting-aubrey-huff-2010-reunion?fbclid=IwAR3OLWb5Vuj-iUgD0HKC5MZJ_d2AR06WpRN5JGho7jBl-TJf2swg7Fr6V0k
Sounds like Sandoval isn’t a big fan of Huff. It would be interesting to hear from a local scribe re the Posey/Sandoval dynamic in the clubhouse.
Apparently Huff said Panda was a bad teammate.
Happy birthday, Flav!
thanks!
Posey has never been a vocal leader in his approach.Its Panda&Pence that do that with Cueto mixed in with some antics in the dugout.
When Panda left for Boston it was Pence and Bochy he was going to miss the most.The only time I remember Buster getting his 2 cents in was when Melky got suspended and bailed on the team in a hurry, and he didn’t want him back for letting the team down..
I admit I haven’t been on board with a complete rebuild and I’m still not. I took Zaidi at his word when he said “he wanted the Giants to be competitive as deep into the season as possible” and that we wouldn’t be in a complete rebuild mode. After not getting Harper he said something like, don’t worry I had a plan before pursuing Harper… Well, those statements seem to have fallen flat IMO.
I think getting Harris was a smart move (although, I’m not sure he has done anything yet), but I’m not impressed by the Kapler hire, at least not yet. I’m also not a fan of the waiver wire revolving door. I can’t think of one waiver wire pick that has actually stuck, but there has been so many that I guess I could be wrong and someone is still in the organization somewhere
Do I want Zaidi to fail? No. Do I think he’s doing a good job? No. Do I trust the ex A and Dodger? Not until he proves me wrong.
fair points. You want him to prove it to you that he knows what he’s doing and that the team will get better. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Bozo, I just don’t think it is possible to get where they want to be by trying to be ‘competitive’ during a rebuild. The Pads, BJays, Detroit, the Angels, and countless other teams try to retool on the fly and it doesn’t work. Spending wildly on free agents rarely works. Unless you are the Yankees, Dodgers, or Red Sox and spend through the nose while trading decent draft capital.
I hear ya, Unca, although I’m pretty sure the Pads have been in rebuild mode for the last 10 years. But yeah, the Pads and the Angels have had some poor FA decisions over the years. Right now I’m looking at the AZ model, they got rid of Goldschmidt and Greinke and not only stayed competitive but it looks like they could give LA a run for their money. I just think Zaidi could have done more to bridge to the kids. Just my opinion and hopefully Farhan proves me wrong. At the very least, I think I’m done talkin’ about the guy for awhile.
Here’s what Huff had to say about Pablo.This was in 2015.
I’m truly surprised there are so many Flappers who give 2 shits about what Huff has said. I couldn’t care less. He’s an idiot. But he’s an idiot I will be eternally grateful to for what he did for us in 2010….
Sort of funny to me that, other than Affelt, Huff lists all of the red asses on the team.
Lol I noticed that too
How can you start a rebuild when you keep adding old players?
At some point they need warm bodies. That’s all they are.
I see there are several bday wishes up above, THANKS!
Cheers, Flav. I hope you have a good one..
In Zaidi’s first season, the Giants won 4 more games than they did the previous season. But somehow that doesn’t count.
Totally rebuilt the farm system, and it’s now considered one of the farm systems on the rise, but somehow that doesn’t count. Their AAA team last season won the national championship.
No 2020 regular season games have been played yet, but somehow the season has already been predicted by people who own crystal balls, I guess.
Sabean did an awesome historic amazing job, but it even took him 13 years to win his first championship with the Giants.
After 1 1/4 years, Zaidi is a bust somehow. Yeah, that seems fair.
“Fire Sabean now” ring a bell? “Lunatic Fringe”? I think Sabean took quite a bit of criticism during his whole 13 years in SF.
But hey, Zumiee, I’m looking forward to seeing what kind of numbers Melvin Adon puts up this spring. Do you have a longshot guy you’re keeping an eye on?
The first spring lineup! Pav later corrected Longo to 3B.
Crawfish is 3 seasons behind.
I tend to agree with much of what Bozo is saying and don’t think it’s accurate to categorize it as hoping Zaidi will fail. I get it the front office is taking risks, being unconventional, yada, yada. Whatever. I can see the San Jose Giants down the street anytime. This is the major leagues. Let’s see the boy wizard’s results.
To be honest I think the club will be better than many expect but that only translates to a .500 club. Will the pitching staff be competitive? A good to strong defense up the middle of the diamond? Will Belt produce now that the club is being “positive” and handling him like the big p the previous regime thought he was? If we’re making predictions I think Slater is going to be the Yaz of 2020 club. Maybe not matching the HR total but an overall improvement in offensive production.
“Let’s see the boy wizard’s results.”
2020 isn’t going to be a result type of season. Hope you can be patient.
It would be nice to be a contender in ’21, but ’22 is more realistic. I have a hard time seeing us being a contender with the Bore Core on the roster.
You’re too easily accepting failure, zum.
I don’t consider rebuilding to be failure.
“Do you have a longshot guy you’re keeping an eye on?”
Oddly enough, it is the Bore Core that I’m most curious about. Kapler has sounded gung-ho about trying to help them reverse their decline. I’m curious to see if he can actually have any success with that. Launch angles, batting stances, computer analysis, and whatever else. Good luck with that Kapler, I hope you can do something with those guys!
Spoiler alert: I’m not betting on it.
That could change the whole season or make some of those guys more tradable at the deadline.
How about getting those fat slobs in shape for openers?
That tends to help an athlete’s performance…
My breakout player is coming from the bullpen.I’m predicting big things from Jandel Gustave.I liked his stuff and he went after hitters with no fear.I will even say he could end up being the closer.Are atleast a tandem setup with Watson(though I don’t think that’s the most effective spot for Watson)
Also unless the Giants expect Posey to catch 162 games lol, they need to figure out his backup( Hieiman? Tromp? and a silent partner from the law firm? are still a chump from the waiver wires like last year when Z brought in anybody who would squat with his cup)and add him to the 40 man roster then to the 26 man squad, cause all they have at #2 is Aramis Garcia who’s pretty much done for the year.
It sounds like Kapler is trying to psych up Belt, who is probably beat-down mentally about his baseball career lately.
Belt’s AB’s are so hard to watch, as we know. 0-2 counts that grind their way into 3-2 counts, that often end with called thrid strikes that Belt disputes.
Hey he’s calling him “The Assassin” for whatever that is worth..
In his defense, he probably loses a half dozen homers a year in shithole alley…
Man if something happens to Posey the Giants are screwed at Catcher. Atleast they had a solid backup with experience in Steven Vogt, the guys trying out for that 2nd spot is led by Tyler Heieman’s 15 AB’s late last year with Tampa Bay after spending his 1st 8 years in the minors.The other guy Tromp has only seen Rivercats baseball, no big league experience.
Zaidi can’t really believe either one of these guys can be ready to help can he?
There’s always some old scrub available on the scrap heap if not the dumpster…
Seeing as it looks like Mr. Kotter could kick all their asses himself, hopefully they WILL get into better shape. Fucking Crawfish looks like he’s the one who is pregnant.
And who can forget this?
Go to the 8 minute mark. I watched this live, and loved every second of it. Conrad cheats and gets rolled by Mr Kotter.
Kaplan. Fucking Beast.
Here’s my take on what the 2020 Astros, who won rings in 2017 should be doing. Give the rings and the bonus money back and say “you know what, take the title away from us as if it never happened and now we will go out in 2020 and win one the right way.”
It would open up the door for record breaking class action lawsuits against Crane and possibly even MLB itself. Astros season tickets holders would argue that the players acknowledgment of it being a fraud should be evidence enough for them to recoup season ticket fees on top of other special damages.
This is the only possible way in which the players could save face with the fans and in doing so stick it to Jim Crane.
A bold idea that isn’t going to happen. It’s outrageous that the players had 2 months to come up with a response and they chose the most brain dead of them all. I will say it would be fun if they came back and won it all. What a story that would be.
The O/U on Astros getting hit this season is 88.5. I would HAMMER the under on that. They’re going to start out getting hit, MLB will come up with massive consequences, none of them will be hit in the second half. Book it.
Wilco, what’s your son think about all this?
It was a disgrace how “Spineless Rob Manfred” handled the whole Astro scandal.Once he granted immunity to the players he lost all credibility to even be in his role as a commissioner.Add in his stupid remark about the Trophy being “it just a piece of scrap metal”, the guy should step down.Its unfortunate that he has the backing of most owners..
Astro players all know they can skate even though they’re all guilty as hell, and what gets me they should just be keeping their pie holes closed and yet they’re still mouthing off,just pathetic..
Here are the Stros new unis.
this entire group is dumb as a post starting with their dipshit clueless owner
imagine being the last chick shooting
i just watched this again. This is so fucking rad.
prop to Jenkins who had nice column in Chron today on Sabrina Ionescu, triple double machine and senior leader of 3rd ranked Oregon, in town to play Cal and Stanford. She’s destroying last place Cal, with another triple double at end of 3rd Q, with Oregon up by 30+.
She has tremendous vision, throws great passes, can score going to hoop or from distance and rebounds like someone much taller. Tremendous player, local gal from the Creek, played at Miramonte of Orinda. Steph and his crew in the house watching tonite.
I really hope teams don’t decide to take out frustrations by trying to bean Houston players, especially any pitch thrown above waist. You have to know Stros pitchers will retaliate in kind to protect their teammates, and it won’t be vs. opposing pitcher obviously so by starting it you risk injury to one of your own hitters.
Plus even doofus Manfred realizes he can’t let this happen freely and will instruct umps to be proactive about warnings and ejections.
Take your revenge on scoreboard. And as wilco said, don’t be surprised Houston wins it all anyway, galvanized by the “everybody hates us” animosity.
A.P. Indy died…
one of my favorites. All Time. I could be sad that such a great champion died on my birthday or I could celebrate what a badass he was to live to 31. I chose to do the latter…..
Absolutely choose the latter.
Hope you had a great birthday 🎂🎂🎂
Wow So Sad..What a marvelous horse 🐎 was A.P. Indy!! RIP Champ!!
speaking of bathroom reading, I found lib book “The Ultimate Basketball Trivia book” by Sam Amico, 600 questions/answers divided into different chapters.
I’ll drop one tmw I read that I couldn’t believe until I looked it up myself.
my buddy PaSalon went to school with Kris Kristofferson’s son (also named Kris). Cool dude, I actually got in an argument with him once and tossed him across a sidewalk. But nevertheless a very cool dude. Kris’s dad told him he was never interested in meeting celebrities, said they were lame. The only one he ever wanted to actually meet was Lee Majors. When he met him he said he was a total dick. I thought about that long ago told story when I saw that video Chuck posted about the Battle of the Network Stars and Farrah was front and center.