List Time
My buddy Chris (I think he’s known here as something like “birddog in Pdx”) texted me last night and said he was having dinner with his son and they were coming up a list of “top 10 all time Giants.” I made my list and we exchanged them and of course now it is causing different levels of dispute.
Let’s go Flappers, let’s see your list. No questions about what qualifies “top 10 all time.” Just list off your 10. You can qualify your reasoning but it’s up to you to determine the meaning of “top 10 all time.”
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
Great thread and I will assume this is not limited to Giants who we saw play:
Brian Wilson and Rod Beck as honorable mentions…
Players whose stats and performances I’ve cared about the most:
Had Bill James published a few years earlier, Darrell Evans might have been in there. Where’s Timmy, I ask?
That’s in what I hope is chronological order.
I’m sorry, Bill Swift!
oh, no, Romo!
lol
James had 4 on his list I wish i could have squeezed on to mine but alas we only get 10.
I’m 59. Started rooting for the Giants in 1975, when I was 10
My list excludes players like mays, who are clearly great, but I never saw and thus can’t be on my list:)
McCovey
Jack Clark
Will Clark
Robby Thompson
Barry
Kent
Cain
Timmy
Posey
Bumgarner
can’t believe i left off Jack Clark
yep me too. He was my first Giant I rooted for.
Tough to leave another fav JT Snow:)
Not the greatest maybe but all guys I loved to root for!
Mays
Bonds
Posey
McCovey
Timmy
Clark
Cain (Perfect Game gets him on the list)
BCraw
Mitchell
Zito
I’mm gonna have to roll this around my head for a bit.
This is pretty funny. Poor Pirates. It’s Grandahl, not Bart.
https://x.com/i/status/1802166197540057427
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Juan Marichal
Gaylord Perry
Jack Sanford
Joe morgan
Timmy
Will Clark
Posey
Darrell Evans
Shout our to all the fantastic pitching we’ve had over the years.
Mays
McCovey
Marichal
Posey
Burks
Evans
Mitchell
Beck
Santiago
McGee
Great pic of Mays HOF plaque that will be at Rickwood tonight in TA.
And no Wade Jr. can’t legally be fudged around IL and roster rules. Playoffs as of now are 9 teams battling for 2 spots and this game counts in the standings. Think of the $$ one home game in playoffs means…and what DBax (very mediocre team 16 games worse than Dodgers) did last year.
Does appear Wade Jr. close to coming back anyway.
doesn’t shock the conscience, huh? Gotta agree. I like Bruce Jenkins’s idea to have both teams at Rickwood tonight wear 24.
Fuck thinking, and bless your computer heart James. . .
In no particular order:
WIllie McCovey
Willie Mays
Chris Speier
Bobby Bonds
Timmy
Will Clark
Kevin Mitchell
Bummie
Barry Bonds
Buster Posey
Mays, Marichal, McCovey, Matt Williams, Will Clark, Barry Bonds, Rod Beck, Jeff Kent, Lincecum, Buster.
If we were allowed an alternate mine would be Santiago Casilla…with proviso he gets to hit.
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Juan Marichal
Buster Posey
Jack Clark
Jeff Kent
Tim Lincecum
Will Clark
Kevin Mitchell
Bobby Bonds
Mays
McCovey
Bobby Bonds
Montefusco
Clark
Barry Bonds
Timmy
Buster
MadBum
Crawford
I hope that’s Jack!
Sorry, Will.
I’m excluding Barry because of the taint of steroids, and using that opening to put in his dad, Bobby, who was my first Giants hero and who will always have a special place in my heart.
Matthewson
Ott
Mays
McCovey
Marichal
Bobby Bonds
Will Clark
Posey
Lincecum
Cain
Cameron Brink tore the ACL in her knee and her season is over. Tough loss for the LA team in the WNBA. And she was a member of the Olympic 3X3 basketball team, whatever that is, so now there is an Olympic spot open, and get ready for more Olympic roster drama, lulz.
Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Speier, Perry, Posey, W. Clark, Fuentes, Kent, Crawford.*
*Conflicted about Craw, because Speier was my favorite player (that I actually met too) after Mays; and, he had more WAR all time versus Craw . . . But ended up saying fuck it, I loved them both. Couldn’t look past the cheating of Bonds, so left him off. Only 10? Could have easily added another 10. Decisions, decisions, decisions . . .
Damm another great actor dies… Donald (Oddball)Sutherland at 89..Its been a rough week with Say Hey Mays also..
Kelly’s Hero’s,Dirty Dozen,Italian Job,Space Cowboys,Hunger Games, Invasion of the Body Snatchers,Animal House countless others..
AK, my favorite too. YOU FORGOT MASH THOUGH!!!
I recall one month a playboy centerfold picked Eye of the Needle as her favorite movie. (Woman I know wrote some of that stuff for a while.) Not a horrible movie.
OH SHIT! Yeah Xoot, that movie was a fav back in the day. In fact, that made me recall another war movie that I also loved that starred him and Michael Caine, The Eagle Has Landed (read the novel too).
Klute and Don’t Look Back were hip back in the day. And MASH. His range was astonishing.
Yeah, I had to put Speier in over Crawfish as Speier and the 1971 team was my first live-or-die-with-every-game team. Marichal should be on the list as well, but I just HAD to get Mitchell in there.
Then again, I really wanted to put Jeffrey Leonard in there as well. Just for the badassery factor.
So:
** Juan Marichal
** Penitentiary Face
Kelly’s Heroes is one of my all-time faves. That and The Great Escape for war flicks. Body Snatchers as well.
I swear, the dog in Body Snatchers has Jerry Garcia’s face!
“1971 team was my first live-or-die-with-every-game team”
Me too, especially after the 1960s “2nd Place Groundhog Day” annual redux. I had no clue we wouldn’t sniff the playoffs again until 1987 . . . grrr.
Same for me, too. I know I was never as into baseball in my entire life as that 1971 season.
I well remember listening on my transistor radio the Giants clinching night game in San Diego to get into the 1971 post season…
Honorable mention to pitcher Carl Hubbell whose stats are off the charts, and who was so great his teammates nicknamed him the Meal Ticket. His #11 was retired by the Giants. Matthewson’s number would have been retired but he played in MLB before the players even had numbers on their uniforms.
The Giants retired numbers:
“3 Bill Terry; 4 Mel Ott; 11 Carl Hubbell; 20 Monte Irvin; 22 Will Clark; 24 Willie Mays; 25 Barry Bonds; 27 Juan Marichal; 30 Orlando Cepeda; 36 Gaylord Perry; 42 Jackie Robinson (retired throughout Major League Baseball); 44 Willie McCovey.”
so far I am most bummed about not having speier, Evans and Beck
and jack Clark
MLB Network is doing stuff all day from Rickwood Field. And the game is not even on their network. I assume everyone knows the game is on Fox.
I’m limiting my Top 10 favorite players to those I either saw or heard play live on the radio. Mays is in his own category, so he’s not on here.
Bobby is the one I personally saw play at A ball, so he’s got a special place for me. These are in chronological order, not by most favorite. I don’t care if Barry used ‘roids — he played in a MLB-complicit era that more than winked at ‘roids and he played against loads of others ‘roided up, so he stays, and should be in the HOF. Stretch and Timmy are my #1 and #2…
Stretch
Marichal
Speier
Bobby Bonds
Sarge
Will Clark
Barry
Timmy
Buster
Craw
Honorable Mention:
Nen
The Beard
Tito
Kenny Henderson
I thought about Kent, a lot.
I liked him for being so productive, and he should be a HOFer. It’s a crime he was dissed for that. But, he was more than a bit of a prick, I never had a good vibe from him. Barry was Barry, he was freakin’ beyond amazing, and he was our prick, so he’s on my list…
I also had a hard time keeping Matt Williams off the 10.
Helluva player when he was with us. Need more than 10, especially for us older dudes who’ve been Giants fans for now close to 60 years…
Shit, forgot about Matt.
Yep. I could do a top 10 from 1968 to 1978. 4 of my top 10 are from that era.
Vida Blue
Gary Matthews
Garry Maddox
Mays
McCovey
Marichal
Speier
Gaylord Perry
Jim Ray Hart
Jack Clark
Yep. It’s funny, I had a rivalry going with my Chicago cousins in the late 6os about the Niners, Giants, Cubs and Bears. In 1967-69 they all sucked. 1969 espescially. So I finally was able to gloat in 1970 with the Niners making the payoffs and the Giants coming around in 1971.
That’s why 10 is too small a list. Robby Thompson should be on there as well. Shooter. Kent. Jack the Ripper…
I guess a top 10 of guys I didn’t include would be:
Penitentiary Face
Jack the Ripper
Shooter Beck
DEvans
The Count
Tito Fuentes
Chili Davis
The Beard
Crawfish
Matt Cain
Starting to look like a top 10 nickname list.
Loved those old Bears dark unis from 60s. They won it all (pre Super Bowl) earlier in decade with old man Halas stomping around sidelines and killer defense.
1963 w 24 yr old Ditka as All Pro TE.
Renteria,
Mitch,
Mays,
Barry Bonds,
McCovey,
Timmy,
Will Clark,
Royce Clayton,
Nen,
Beck,
(I wish I could keep adding to this list).
Ha, yes.
yeah, there are so many Players that 10 doesn’t begin to cover them all.
Panda
Woody
Lavelle
Bailey
Kuenn
Kingman
Hart
Big Daddy
Burks
Gladden
I really liked all those guys
What’s with Kuiper not going much on the road now? And, Jon Miller taking lots of games off. Anybody caught wind of anything?
I don’t much care if SF wins/loses tonight. Of course I’d prefer they win, but I really don’t want them to have one of these horrendous Keystone Kops defensive games or a 4 hit snoozer — all on national TV. Don’t be an embarrassment in such a special, one-off game…
I feel pretty much the same way. If we lose a cleanly played game it’s not so bad.
Agree with you both.
If they made a couple errors, missed a pop up, got only 4 hits, and still won, I’d be ok with that.
Luis Aparicio oldest living HOF now at age 90? I do remember watching some of 1959 WS btw Chi Sox of Aparicio and Nellie Fox and victorious Dodgers and Sherry brothers battery
Cepeda is 86.
RCs lost yesterday 5-4. Whisenhunt went 4.1 scoreless innings, 5 hits 2 walks 7 Ks 89 pitches. Bishop threw out a runner at plate from CF, 1-5 w triple and 4 Ks. Matos 1-5 w double Luciano 2b and SS 0-3 w BB. Sabol 1-3 w double at 1b
Saw note RCs will get synthetic turf put in off season to accomodate A’s and Cats playing full time there next year. That will be only ML yard w synthetic turf that is not a dome.
Wow. Cheap fuckers just keep on cheaping.
An honorable mention to Frankie Frisch, a key player in the Giants winning back to back World Series over the Yankees. I first learned his name from a pretty cool baseball board game my mom bought at a yard sale when I was a kid. The game only featured retired legends of the game. It used round player cards and a spinner, and my friends and I were enthralled with the game. We played it all summer until the spinner finally broke off. Man, did kids care a lot about baseball in those days.
you go Reggie!
Did BF post his list? I’m not seeing it.
There’s also the colossal racism in the history of Birmingham. Bull Connor being asked if he was going to stop integration, and he said he was going to die trying. He pronounced the word “die” with a big drawl as “daaaaahhh.” “I’m going to daaaaahhh trying.” And now he’s remembered in history as a rotten evil racist. That’s his legacy. He eagerly chose the wrong side of history.
yeah tell Tommy Tuberville that.
Oh, shut up already…
shut the fuck up you dishonest mouthy little bitch
When was I ever dishonest?
I’ll remove dishonest from the indictment. Too much trouble to prove that point. You mouthy little bitch.
I’m sure if your tantrum continues tonight you’ll provide us with an example of your mendacity. It seems to spew out when you get really upset. Not that I want to upset you. I’d prefer to avoid you, as I’d try to ignore a rat in the corner.
And we all learn another new word. You in on the poll or not? Here’s your chance to free the Flap of my fuckin mendacity. You can be a hero!
Don’t think you can back up the other ones either, but have at it since you’ve finally found a purpose in your life as the blog scumbag……
How about this, Xootie. Let’s have Big Flavor put up a poll and our brethren here can vote to permanently ban one of us. I’m in. You?
Yeah, let’s stone the infidel. You’re such a measly vicious little asswipe.
That’s how we grow ’em here, hotshot. No doubt your constituency will turn out in record numbers…
you’re such a dumb fuck. Did you hear that pregame interview with the guy who was the first Black pitcher on the Cardinals? No one on the Cards spoke to him. But he pitched. I like that guy. You now know what I think of you. But it doesn’t matter. Cara de verga.
How clever. Tell it to my degree from Amherst…
hoho! The lifelong loser comes clean! Or does he? Does he know Jack about Emily? Every Amherst grad I’ve ever met had Emily stories. First lawyer I ever worked for was a Brooklyn kid who’d gone to Amherst before Columbia. Maybe that was their version of aff action. I know the Calif version helped me.
It was a spellcheck error, I meant to type Aqueduct, you gullible cunt…
yeah, you pussy, you claim typo. No emily stories huh? What a coward you are.
And you’re too fuckin stupid to know when someone’s fucking around with you. You wouldn’t last 30 seconds here. Have you left the house since the wife bailed?
oooh. Here it comes! The mendacity’s about to spew! This is Fuego over Antigua level of incandescent ejecta on its way.
And btw I’ve dealt with rabid rats like you my entire life, at every level you can imagine. I’ve done well.
I’m sorry did you say something? I was busy reading the texts from 11 Flappers thanking me for burying you…
stone the infidel, you coward. you pathetic pussy. Ain’t no thing.
You need support. You crave it. You’re still living on that moment when your daddy told you that you were a great natural secondbaseman. As you once described here. And you’ll always do what you need to do to get that mush.
I think I’ll end this where it started the other night: adios, cara de verga.
I say again that MLB blew it by not giving Wade a special dispensation to come off the IL to take one AB in this very special game, especially important for a Black player, given the circumstances. And, given that there are now so few Black players. I just head BoMel talking pre-game with Miller about it. They would have let Wade lead off the order, then take him out after the at bat, and go back on the IL where he was before. MLB said no, not that way. To do it, they’d have to activate him, then put him back onto the IL which period would be forced to start all over again, meaning he’d be ready to go probably by early next week, but blocked from coming back by the running of the re-started IL period. BoMel was diplomatic, Miller basically understatedly let it be known that Manfred could have easily OK’d it, it was ultimately his call. Manfred usually comes up the aszhat, and this time was no different…
I just heard there are 60+ former Negro League players in attendance tonight for the Negro League celebration aspect of the game. But NO, Wade cannot be given an IL dispensation to make one official plate appearance before those guys and a national TV audience.
Manfred the Moron…
I hear you but…he’s been the Giants best freaking hitter all season, and this game counts in the standings. If I’m the Cards I’d protest it too. If it was just an exhibition, no. but a real game that could ultimately decide playoff berth, no way. Wade Jr. would have had to sit another full 10 days. He’s almost ready now–why F around with another stint away from team?
Willie, give the company line a rest for once. There was no Cards protest that I’ve seen, this was brought by the Giants FO to MLB, and MLB canned the request. Even if they had protested, so what?
How many Negro League celebration games are going to played in the next 50 years? Is there a nefarious, abusive piece of Giants intent anywhere in that temporary bending of the rules, for one fucking AB? What precedent does that set that somebody is going to cite for trying to abuse it in some later regular season on a Tuesday night game of Tigers vs. Guardians? Gimme a fuckin’ break…
Rules are the rules. One AB for Wade isn’t worth 10 additional days missing in action. They need him back full strength as soon as he can play. Every game matters and has to go according to Hoyle as my grandfather used to say.
whoever wrote that line in Don Cheadle’s monologue did well: “Watching Willie Mays play was like hearing jazz for the first time.”
LaMonte gets a moment in the celebration. Nice.
Looks like that’ll be the highlight of the night.
Top 10 in no particular order:
Pre-World War II (3) – Mathewson, Ott, Hubbell
Golden Age of 50’s/60’s (3) – Mays, McCovey, Marichal
Y2K Period (1) – Bonds
World Series Glory Years (3) – Posey, Bumgarner, Crawford
Honorable Mention – Cepeda, Perry, Will the Thrill, Kent, Lincecum
I value longevity with Giants and sustained years of success though Lincecum’s dominance from 2008-2010 and Will the Thrill’s all-star caliber performance in late ‘80’s to early 90’s deserve commendation.
Giants defensive faux paus again results in damage. The first thing you’re taught in baseball about catching a guy off base is to run at him to make him commit himself so you can direct your throw to the proper bag. Sheezus…
Ramos with the 3 – run jack equalizer !
He’s proving to have some serious oppo-field power. I think it’s safe to say now the Giants have found themselves a productive young outfielder. Hopefully he follows through on what looks like real promise…
Winn is getting clobbered so far. Get somebody up…
Well, BoMel does the right thing to take Winn out, then yet another mistake — leads directly to run #5.
This team is adept at giving away runs…
I’ve seen enough of Winn to know he sucks and needs to go back to even AA instead of getting lit up at Sac ERA even went up again too 6.99 ..
my son texts that he likes seeing a powerful young CF playing there for the Giants tonight. Gotta agree
Coming in alittle late to the party but am I seeing an all black umpiring crew? Which is great to see ..
yeah.
Yes, another deviation from “the rules” of a regular game. These umps were taken off their regular rotation with their regular crews to field an all Black ump crew for this special commemorative game. Even the replay ump in NY is a Black ump to make the commemoration even greater. But, but isn’t that against some rules or regular order?…
Im glad they’re not playing these Crawford at 3B games in SF.
Taylor Rogers — contributing to Rodriguez’ ERA…
Yes, that was definitely worth commenting on, out of all the thousands of plays this year, a low and outside slider that a hot hitter did a good job of flipping into CF, because, well, any T. Rogers sucks, the overwhelming evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.
Whatever, James.
Total bloop BABIP hit which Rogers had zero control over.
Pitchers have lot less control on balls in play than we think. That hit definitely evidence of it.
Exactly..Rodriguez was dealing and yet Moron Melvin says its time to give up a run so he brings Rodgers in to do that!
Gave Winn to much credit on his 6.99 it’s actually higher at 7.18 atta boy.
Was picking up my daughter from the Boys and Girls club . . . What happened to Yastrzemski? Hamstring again?
Blade..Think they mentioned right side Oblique injury figure another DL stint and Matos call up..
Ty AK.
Melvin pulled a Kapler there taking out Rodriquez:(
Great job by Ahmed fouling off the 2-2 pitch to say alive.
This game has be so amazing. As a lifelong baseball fan the history has been terrific.
The 99 yo guy asks if ‘that turned out ok? after his interview. So good!
Story about Dodger scout saying Mays couldn’t hit a breaking ball fun too!
I seem to remember that Willie did pretty well against Koufax, the guy with the greatest curveball in modern MLB history. James can confirm or deny…
Wonder how much the lefty/righty match up comes into play at that level of greatness…
https://stathead.com/baseball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=mays–002wil&player_id2=koufax001san
What stands out for me is that Willie didn’t swing at the curveball out of the zone and took his walks.
Mays struck out more often than not against Koufax iirc.
spoke to soon a .278 BA against Koufax is pretty good
Just nonsense , huh? And Dodgers had been at forefront adding black players couple years after Robinson, like Newcombe and Campanella.
That one cracked me up.
I first saw the Giants on tv when we moved to socal desert mid sixties w/ LA tv. Innovative camera showed the Koufax 12/6 curve and the guy with the hand held gun and the flat brim Panama hat behind the screen. The Giants were different than every other team they played. Style and power; and discernible unease among the dodger announcers.
Snarkk I looked up the Mays/Koufax stats and Willie did just fine..
122 total PA ,97 AB’s,5HR’s,8 doubles,1Triple,14RBI’s,25 Walks 20 K’s( more walks then K’d against Sandy)
.278 average.426 Slg,.426 OBP,OPS.962
Yeah Say Hey more then held his ground against Koufax..
yeah, .962 career OPS against Koufax. Not bad at all. /s
He probably fared the worst against some no-name, journeyman hurler. That’s usually how things work…
Mays would often say that he could’ve had a lot more doubles but held at first so they wouldn’t walk McCovey. I wonder how many times he really did that especially with Hart or Cepeda lurking. I think Willie may have exaggerated that one…
If you simply go by stats, particularly sabermetrics that MLB uses today, Mays was robbed of 6 additional MVPs. That’s a fact jack! Read the ESPN column below:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40382708/mlb-willie-mays-new-york-san-francisco-giants-all-great-career-stats
how many more HRs and xb hits would he have had if he hadn’t had to play in Candlestick?
Just guessing – 100. Couple that with losing 2 seasons in the Army. Also, the Polo Grounds wasn’t exactly a band box either. Wasn’t center field almost 500 feet back?
My best friend in junior high school and high school would argue almost weekly about who was better, his favorite, Hank Aaron or Willie Mays. I avoided that subject after Mays had that stint with the Mets. Humiliating.
Mays rolling in his grave saying:Say Hey can u win just one game for me?
Those 2 years in his super prime years going into the military cost him 80-100 HR’s and easily passes Babe Ruth while he was still playing in NY instead of Aaron for 1st alltime back then who played at launching fields.
The Bland Boys of Alabama.
oh.
game wasn’t good. But the celebration of mid century African American life and culture was terrific. Fox execs and racist fans everywhere must be apoplectic, as they say.
Willie Mays is the face of MLB.
24 patch way cool.
Bailey worked so hard to get that single at the end to keep the rally going, and then Chapman whiffs on three straight pitches.
To paraphrase Walsh talking about DeBerg, the Giants are playing just good enough to still lose.
Great job on all aspects of the event and broadcast. The only thing missing was, because of it being a neutral site and it being a much smaller venue, it lacked louder crowd noise.
MLB should take a strong look at having a game there every season, IMO.
There’s plenty more to learn about the Negro leagues in a broadcast each season.
Something the broadcast only barely touched on is how, during the winter, to make more money, the white MLB players would put together all star teams to play black all star teams. These games drew huge crowds and people could see Paige pitching to Ted Williams, and so forth.
Williams later pushed hard for Paige and other Negro leagues stars to be in the Hall of Fame. He was successful, as we know.
I know Ted was big on getting Negro league players into the Hall, but I didn’t know he was barnstorming. Dizzy Dean and his all stars played Satchel’s all stars so maybe Ted was part of that?
The Bona Fied Legend of Cool Papa Bell is a great book to check out. a lot of history about the league and for me, Cool was someone I wish I could have seen play the game.
I don’t know if it’s just me but after Brooks earned a really great leadoff walk and then they pinch run with Fitzgerald (still ok move) but then Wisely hits one to the warning track in RF that was even carrying down the line farther away and Fitzgerald can’t tag up? Then Bailey gets a hit that would of tied it up.Giants are never aggressive enough especially down just one, so they lose on cue which sucks on this night.Guarantee Willie’s on second and it wouldn’t be close..
Giants had Fitz PR for Brooke who drew the BB. He had to steal 2b there as their best threat. He’d have been on 3b after Wisely fly ball to deep RF with 1 out. Changes everything, for pitcher hitter and D.
Fitz was never going to steal 2nd it’s always the Giants stop light special, especially for a team that’s dead last by a mile in Steals.He tags up on Wisely’s ball to deep right he should make it to second then send him home on Bailey’s but since with 2 outs he should be running on the crack of the bat.But whatever we can agree to disagree Willied,it’s the usual choke job , get within 1 run lately in games late and just roll over..
Fair enough Kat, and I’d agree he could have tagged up on deep drive and gotten into scoring position at 2b. I just don’t get why he didn’t run in first place, being Giants fastest guy and best threat to steal.
As for Rodriguez, he’s the one who threw the wild pitch that allowed run #5 on Winn’s behalf, Then he hit Burleson and gave up single to Golds moving Burleson to 2b so Rodriguez had put both these guys on and doesn’t deserve an excuse. Rogers fooled the hitter who unfortunately leaned out and blooped the single that scored Burleson.
And of course the Doghairs win and minutes ago after Brewers tie it up 6-6 in the 9th, 2 outs 2 strikes and Crowenworth hits a walk off HR!!
We have to worry about the other 7 mediocre teams in the NL, not the Dodgers.
fwiw great TA column from Eno Sarris, referencing present day hitters as comps to Bochy and his career .685 OPS. Lot of depressing data that goes back to equating 2024 with 1968. Interesting words from guys like Yelich Arenado and Goldschmidt on how hard it’s become to be good hitter these days.
Talks about TrackMan data that lets pitchers know what not to throw and where, pitchers adding multiple variations of fastballs and sinkers that are more effective than ever, OFs playing deeper ( up to10 feet for CFs) to take away XBHs in exchange for bloop singles, etc. And they ain’t about to lower mound again either.