Finding Ways to Lose Games + Thread Number 5-Hundo
There are lots of ways to lose baseball games: bad hitting. bad pitching. bad defense. Because of the historic *badness* of the offense, that gets most of the publicity for why we lose. But ther fact is, this team has been bad defensively this year, especially in the 2nd half of the season. Last year they had 73 errors for the entire season. This year, we’re already at 98 and near the bottom of the NL. Cabrera made his 5th error in his 32nd game as a Giant. That’s bad. Really bad. By now, everyone has read Bochy’s comments about Cabrera and why he will continue to play him. Sorry, but he’s just being stubborn. Last year he played the vets through rough patches because that’s what they would hit: rough patches. Cabrera has been horrible all season. He was bad in Cleveland and has gotten worse in San Francisco. It is an obvious mistake to keep playing him………
Another big mistake: not pinch running for Pill yesterday. It was the 7th inning and you’ve got a bench full of speed, Huff ready to come in and play first base (or Belt) and maybe your last chance to score in the game. If Burrell didn’t hit a no-brainer fly ball you simply HAVE to have your fastest runner barreling down the line. Pill has marginal speed, at best…….
Neither of these decisions seem complicated to me (sit Cabrera and PR for Pill). And yet BOTH didn’t happen and the failure to make either or both changes led to yesterday’s loss. And I don’t want to hear any drivel about me not being a major league manager and Bochy being freaking God because he is one and he won the World Series last year. I’m not questioning for a second his genius run through the playoffs last year. He was brilliant. But he’s not perfect, no one is and he’s made several questionable decisions down the stretch this year. With a team so barely on the margin of winning and losing right now, the tipping point sometimes is going to be the manager’s late inning decisions. Bochy, along with several of his players, needs to tighten up his game right now………
And now, it’s time to recognize a Flap Milestone: Today is the 500th Thread I’ve posted at wordpress. It’s actually more than that, but I’ve had to delete several whole threads due to, well, I’ll just say “sub-standard content”. But today there are exactly 500 out there to read. There are over 69,000 comments by all of you guys, I can’t imagine the number of total words written here. There have been some high points and low points for the blog but I really am proud of the overall 500 and I honor the contributions from all of you. Collectively we make this, in my opinion, the best Giants baseball blog out there especially in terms of fan interaction. If you haven’t been able to tell, my goal for the Flap has always been this: Create a place on the internet where Giants fans can come together and watch a game, share their informed baseball insight in an honest, sometimes raw way, without fear of mindless moderation but at the same time feeling protected from unnecessary troll abuse. For the most part, I think we’ve nailed that goal. Let’s make the next 500 better than the first………
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
I also think they should have pinch-run for Pablo in the 9th and have to be more aggressive on the basebaths to avoid the inummerable DPs…not our year boys…bring on the NFL…
Congrats on the milestone Flavor. I look forward to reading the blog everyday. There are some very knowledgeable and insightful posters here. Agree with GH.
Spot on regarding the club’s D this year. It’s just been shit generally.
I don’t see the problem with questioning Bochy. He’s made some questionable moves. He’s also lost his cool more than I remember in the past. Can’t say I blame the guy though with all the injuries and nightly cobbling together of line ups with a bunch of spare parts. I’m surprised his head hasn’t just popped.
Haven’t had much time to post recently as my wife gave birth to our second child early Monday morning (yeah, Labor Day)…Rider Joseph is doing great…He caught his first Giants game from the hospital room on Tuesday night from the Iphone…Just in time to see Pill go yard in his big league debut…Gave a knowing dude nod in appreciation of the blast…Course that’s about all he does is knowing dude nod’s…Eat, sleep, shit, knowing dude nod, repeat…
Great post Wilcojoe . . . Props to you and your wife with regard to the new amigo. Flav, congrats on the 500th! Go Giants . . . WE ARE NOT OUT OF IT YET. I REPEAT, WE ARE NOT OUT OF IT YET!
Go Giants!
congrats Joe…from a father of 5, I miss those old days of two…piece of cake:)
Mission accomplished, Flav. It’s always good reading here, and sometimes it’s the most fun thing I do all day, whether or not you agree with what’s being posted (uh, no to Carlos Lee).
As to Beltran, I think he has proven what he can do at the plate, which is spray line drive rockets all over the park from both sides, with some pop. His D is less than impressive, but he did have a nice play and throw off the carom to the cutoff the other night that almost nailed a guy at the plate. He’s hardly going to be the last baseball player out partying in the early hours who might not be at 100% for the next game.
But…if you don’t re-sign him, he is exactly the type of hitter you aer going to need to replace in the middle of the order. Over the season he has produced runs at a .285 clip—add up runs scored and rbis then minus out the HRs, and divide by ABs. Next highest on the Giants is Pablo, at .228, followed by Nate at .220, Ross at .215. Huff’s at .175 btw, Belt at .162. I added these up yesterday so they might not be completely accurate.
Anyway , my point is that if this is the type of FA guy you want, be prepared to pay for it. Trade of course, is going to cost you more than a runzler type. Fangraphs writer (hey, just one guy’s opinion) last week listed Cuddyer as one of guys most likely to be overpaid as an FA….reasons being as follows: his age, poor defense anywhere, disparity in splits l/r, and fact that his offensive numbers aren’t stellar in comparison vs. OF/1b. One blogger listed Sabes as a likely suspect to do just what the site’s writer feared.
500 more? Yikes!
While i don’t expect them to, it will be interesting to see if they make a play for beltran. My only problem is I can’t see giving him more than 3 years (really i’d rather see 2 and an option) and that’s just not going to fly with the market i suspect. Someone is going to offer him 4 or even 5, and they’ll be deeply stupid (can i say that on this blog? oh wait, I can!!! Thanks Flav!). Frankly, there’s not a hitter out there that i’d give 5 years to (how old is albert?). One sort of key in looking at next year (I know it’s not OVER, but one can start to peak) is that Huff should be due for one of his good years. Lead off/center field then becomes the big hole unless the giant’s know something about Torres that we don’t. . It would be smart to add an additional bat though as Huff may NOT have a bounce back year and then there’s always injuries. But as we’ve seen over the past few seasons, wanting to add a bat and being able to are very different things. Enjoy the day sports fans!
NO to Beltran.
Agree Nipper.
Congrats, on the 500, BF. Helluvan effort.
As for Bochy, well shit yeah. Yesterday he blew those moves, and he’s blown some before this year. He’s gotten a deserved golden and teflon toilet ring this year for last year’s efforts. But, he should not and will not get a break for stupid ass managing of personnel like this Cabrera stuff. He’s getting reamed for it all over the media, and deservedly so. Read Bochy’s explanation via Baggs or Schulman. Essentially it’s the inane “Well, uh, we brought him over here to be a vet for the stretch run, and its the stretch, so we’re going to play him”. That’s it. Hello, you play him even when he can’t catch pop ups, can’t hit a lick, is basically shite and costing the team games, AND he’s sure as hell not going to be back here next year? Sabean’s allowing it, so he’s on the hook, too, with Bonehead for such inanity…
Sabean loves vets……distrusts rookies. Reasonable policy.
Well, when you state an opinion, you *are* going to get a lot of drivel in response, happens to me several times a day..anyway,, as an example, I thought they should have run for Pill nd Chuckles said it was too early (7th inning!!!??). That was a no brainer, IMO..Cabrera/Mudbug isn’t. Fact is, Crawford hasn’t been the Ozzzie that he’s made out to be– he has 7 errors himself, better than Cabrera but as not as much as fervid imaginations would have it. By range factor, Cabrera comes out on top. Factoring in their offense, neither deserve to play, but Crawford is hardly the BETTER choice. With the suckitude pretty equal, going with the vet is a reasonable decision…
Second guessing in general: there will always be more when a team isn’t playing well because most bloggers confuse a poor result with a poor a decision…
Beltran? The way he plays RF, as if he’ll he’ll break a leg if he goes all out, suggests a guy who is not going to last long in the field. He’s probably DH material in a year. Somebody will pay hin 15-18 per year for 4 years, pray it isn’t us…”He’s hardly going to be the last baseball player out partying in the early hours who might not be at 100% for the next game.” Uh, he was ZERO percent, he couldn’t play.
I thought it was the 5th . . .
Now you know.
Beltran is old in baseball years. Giants have to find younger players that can hit.
I’ve had to delete several whole threads due to, well, I’ll just say “sub-standard content”.
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Sure. Some of my best stuff. Congratulations, Flav!! Let the great run keep running.
And Wilcojoe, congratulations as well!! I give you a mazel tov and a knowing dude nod!!(not that I..like..know or anything)
Crawford is clearly the better choice over Cabrera. He makes the routine plays, he doesn’t drop can o’ corn pop ups that lead to pitcher exasperation and gimme runs. That is unforgiveable and an immediate ticket to the pine as a MLB player. You don’t drop EZ popups under routine conditions. This is an example of why Bochy should not be given the reins to this team the next couple of years if there are young players coming in, which is obviously needed after they blow up this team in the offseason. Bochy is terrible at managing young players, doesn’t like them unless they bowl him over with skills he can’t explain away with some comparative vet experience, and one of the reasons he got pushed out of Diego. If he’s the manager next year, and I hope he is not, Belt and any other young players will be operating under a manager who will diss them whenever possible. Bring up Decker…
If Crawford were the certain SS of the future, that would be one thing. He’s not. He’s now the 3rd best SS prospect. Offfensively, Fontentot is Cal Ripken, Jr. compared to either of the other two, BTW.
(BA, OBP, OPS)
Crawford: .192 .276 .539
Cabrera: (with Giants) .217 .232 .477
Font .222 .302 .661
He also has the highest fielding percentage, but the least range.
Bochy has done his best job under tryng circumstances, all fans should pray he returns…
Congratulations, Wilcoe!
Rider Joe . . .
Your next son can be Surfer Joe . . .
Then Biker Joe . . .
I know you, rider, gonna miss me when I’m gone;
I know you, rider, gonna miss me when I’m gone;
Gonna miss your baby, from rolling in your arms.
Laid down last night, Lord, I could not take my rest;
Laid down last night, Lord, I could not take my rest;
My mind was wandering like the wild geese in the West.
The Sun will shine in my back door someday.
The Sun will shine in my back door someday.
March winds will blow all my troubles away.
I wish I was a headlight, on a North bound train;
I wish I was a headlight, on a North bound train;
I’d shine my light through cool Colorado rain.
I know you, rider, gonna miss me when I’m gone;
I know you, rider, gonna miss me when I’m gone;
Gonna miss your baby, from rolling in your arms.
Get back to BLEEPING, Chuck.
Thanks Chuck (and everyone else)…I actually hadn’t heard that song before and the fact that it was written by The Grateful Dead makes it that much more special….The name was inspired by one of my very good friends in Austin…In fact when I told him on Monday that we named him Rider, he wrote this the very next day:
http://tinyurl.com/3j3j2ef
Willied, I like your 8:06am post. I like Cuddyer if we can get him for a reasonable price. However, I agree with what your source said about him. The facts are that he saw a serious drop-off in power in 2010 but stayed on par with his other career averages. He hit .271 with a career-high 165 hits, but his home run and RBI totals went from 32 and 94 to 14 and 81. Some of that could have been attributed to playing in the new Target Field, but the 31-year-old really just had a flash-in-the-pan season in 2009. Fast forward to 2011 . . . His numbers mirror almost exactly last year’s stats, with a slight uptick in HRs (18) and down tick in RBIs (64).
Consequently, I am more lukewarm about him than I was last week. By the by, he is injured right now (wrist injury . . . OH OH!!!!).
Somebody asked about the Giants other three AFL slots. Here’s the explanation from Baggarly, if you haven’t checked yourself yet::
“The Giants haven’t filled any of their three AFL pitching slots, but they aren’t procrastinating. They have three minor league affiliates in postseason play and want to see how many innings pitchers like Heath Hembree log the rest of the way before they decide who needs work and who needs rest.”
Irrelevant whether Crawford is assessed as the 3rd or 1st SS prospect for the future. He’s the one here NOW. And, NOW, Cabrera sucks and is costing games. As for Bochy, he helped win a first SF WS. He’s in the pantheon of all-time respect for that. Time now for the team to move on from him while it recreates a team that can hit, gets younger, and still has exquisite starting pitching…
Snarkk, I’d love to have the type of team you mention in your last sentence, but…if Sanchez comes back to play 2b, and they figure Kepp can play SS (with a young backup, perhaps), I still don’t see much youth movement on the horizon. Unless one of those guys goes as part of a deal. FAs will be expensive.
Actually, over the last few years Bochy has given PT to a number of young guys, none of whom (outside of Guzman) has ever made it. bowker, velez, ort, denker, downs, the loudmouth SS I can’t even remember..none of these guys are mlb caliber. Nate got quite a lot of run this year and performed OK, but really is borderline start material.
If he’s in there, and belt is either at 1b or LF (I doubt they dump Huff), then there isn’t room for more than 1 or 2 OF new guys. Add in Posey to the LU, I’d say you’re one bat away.
Hard to fault bochy too much this year, imo…he didn’t have much to work with. Sure you could make the argument Crawford and Belt wouldn’t have put up worse numbers than Ross Huff Tejada Cabrera. Next year would be the “hot seat” one for me.
Presuming Posey and Fruckie are healthy, the LU to start the year ( without acquisitions) is most likely Posey C,Huff 1B, Fruckie 2B, Kepp SS, Sandoval 3B, Belt LF, Nate ( I returned Grok to the forest) RF, and Torres, Christian, Ross, or maybe even Peguero CF.
This is in my ever so humble opinion.
and the forest thanks you 🙂
What’s relevant is that he is not significantly better than Cabrera. Factoring in the pennant race experience, it’s no more than a toss up, in fact Fontenot might be the best of the three. Don’t give me the drivel on Bochy- you only acknowledge his great job last year because you have no choice.
BTW, it’s conjecture that Cabrera is costing games in the field- yesterday the error led to the third run. They lost 3-1. And can you say with certainty that none of Crawford’s 7 errors have been costly? Of course not. Fact is, as I’ve so very politely explained to you, both players suck. Arguing that a .192 hitting rook with a below league average fielding pct. and range factor is the no brainer choice for SS is… well, I promised I’d be nice.. it’s, uh, not defensible..
I don’t have a particular problem with Crawford playing, I was surprised he wasn’t in yesterday. But what’s silly is the idea that it’s a must.
Did Cabrera’s bonehead error lead to the loss? No. But would Bochy have managed the 9th differently? Of course, Pablo would have been replaced for a PR, a steal might have occurred. There are a lot of possibilities in the 9th that never happen because of Cabrera……
I don’t deny that- but it still can’t be said that that error cost the game, it might have. And many errors are costly, Crawford made his seven in his earlier stint. I’m sure some were costly., a high percentage of errors are. But whatever- Crawford completely sucks, as does Cabrera. You guys want a young terrible player vs. a vet terrible player. To each his own.
If not the game, certainly the momemtum towards winning. Heath Bell was already in, we weren’t gonna get much … 3-1 became a canyon of margin vs. 2-1.
That’s been acknowledged. Let’s do that with all the errors this year instead of cherry picking one. Maybe Snarkk can get us started. I’m assigning him gmes 1-20..
Christian in CF next year? Let’s stop that shit right now.
There’s a reason he’s 31 and still trying to get a full time MLB gig — he’s not a good player.
He’s new to our eyes, and anybody new looks good right now compared to this desultory squad of hitters and slow runners. Part of that goes for Pill, but at least he’s 27.
Criminy, get somebody in here next year to lead off that’s under 30…
I listed him as one of the several possibilities among players currently on the roster. It was hardly a fucking endorsement of any. I was clear that these were the options if no acquistions were made. Settle down.
ah, I just love the arguements over vets vs. rookies/younger players. I don’t get the trying to compare OLD vets stats to younger player stats. If an older players stats are only slightly better that a younger players, why not play the younger, the younger player has a better chance to improve, where as the older players stats are just going to continue to decline due to age and abilities.
Go ahead TF, ruin my logic
How much better is Bocock getting?
You really have lost it! Younger players are not always better, Kevvy. You must be a Cult of Nate member!
That was for Kevin!
Learn how to read son, I said they have a better chance to improve than vet. and just so you know the working word there is “Chance”.
Son?
Yeah Son, I have not been called Kevvy since the 3rd grade or so.
The offseason will be interesting for the blowing up process, sure. But, also it will be very telling whether Cain agrees to an extension beyond 2012. I believe the two are related. He’ll have plenty of coin in the bank to maybe roll the dice as a 2013 FA, especially if Sabean comes up with some lackluster offseason moves that restock the lineup with oldsters and re-treads, as per usual. If Cain does not re-up, the question will arise continually through early season 2012 if he’s trade bait for the 2012 deadline. Timmeh is another question altogether, I would say they’ll come up with another 2 year deal only. He may go the same route and bank the coin for 2 years at probably around $40M total, and not commit to any FA years…
Kudos, props and congratulations Flav for a labor of love well done. This has become one helluva blog where one does not have to wade through reams of babble and scads of badly informed attitudes on a constant basis; but one where most of the dialog is thoughtful, meaningful and to the point by a group of bloggers who love the Giants.
Congrats too to WilcoeJoe on your new Rider clause. Odds on the street are almost overwhelming that there’s yet another Giants fan in the developmental state.
Shortstop: Cabrera is crap. Whether its Fontenot or Crawford or some combination of the two, i’m as ready for change as Rider Joe. Don’t have the time right now to ascertain whether Crawford’s errors were indeed costly, or the relative difficulty of the plays. Repeating from last night: With Giants now possessing two alternatives behind the plate, why the hell start Whitey?
Manager: Bochy has recently made some boo-boos. No excuses beyond the accumulated frustrations of a season plagued with injuries and lack of anticipated performance levels by key players, centering on Tejada, Rowand and to a lesser degree, Huff. My suspicion is that nobody can come up with a cogent argument denying that Bochy is extremely partial to veterans with track records and consequently tends to have an extremely short fuse when it comes to rookies. Twin will wanna argue the case on this one, but who can postulate that a more psychologically astute manager would not have had a more positive rapport with and consequent effect on Brandon Belt. Managers do not like to get overrides regarding on-field decisions, so maybe this developing situation will come to a head around May or June next season.
Giants still have a chance, but yesterday’s unfortunate decisions by Bochy, piled atop of other ones he has made over the course of the season have devolved that chance to something like the 5% solution. Needless to say the onus is only partially on the manager as he has made other decisions, particularly in his usually masterful utilization of his bullpen, which have resulted in offsetting victories. Sabean and the scouting staff get a demerit for taking on Tejada and more recently Cabrera. Then there are the underperformers.
Interesting ESPN article by Stark on the Giants offensive ineptitude. It is of historical significance…
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/6939701/giants-offensive-ineptitude-historic
The manager always gets the heat whenn a team struggles, even more so coming off a championship season. As I said, most bloggers confuse poor results with poor decisions. When the players performed last year, he was a genius. When the same move fails because the guy didn’t come through, he’s a moron. At the beginning of last year, he was still Bonehead to most here, by the end of the year he was Bochy. Now he’s Bonehead again- but he hasn’t changed a bit.
dean smith affect…after winning the title with the jordan group, all of sudden he’s recognized as a genius.
Yes, Bochy is the same as he’s always been. A capable manager, nothing more. He caught lightning in a bottle last year, assisted greatly by a historically dominant starting staff that destroyed the opposition down the stretch and through the playoffs. He could easily be replaced next season, and the team would not crater. They’ve already done that this season. The Giants should look towards the future now, and hire a younger manager to take them into the next half decade while the team still has a core of outstanding starters, assuming they re-sign or are not traded for position bodies…
Something else re:beltran…SF did not get the “Manny affect” of his presence helping out rest of the LU. Pablo had a great August anyway (whereas Beltran’s sucked), but SF got little from those either above or below, outside of some clutch hitting from Keppinger. His acquisition just didn’t have the type of affect on run production bochy and sabes counted on, and his SF numbers are a severe drop off from Mets.
I didn’t care for cabrera deal, but he wasn’t here to carry the team, just not to suck as bad as what came before him. Beltran was a whole different deal, that hasn’t worked out they way SF thought it would.
None of Cabrera’s 5 errors as a Giant has cost them a game. The closest he came was a drop in the bottom of the 9th at Atlanta that kept a Braves rally alive before Affeldt struck out McCann to end it. He also had an error on a forceout play vs. the Cubs with the Giants down 2-0 in the 7th, and DeWitt followed with a 3-run homer off Lincecum that put the game away at 5-0. And yesterday’s error certainly didn’t help the cause.
Crawford has had one error that directly cost a game: June 4 vs. the Rockies, he had a throwing error that scored a run to give Colorado a 1-0 lead in the 5th, and the Giants lost 2-1. His other six errors have been harmless. On July 5, the Pads scored off a Crawford error that tied the game at 2-2, but it was ruled an earned run. Cain later blew a 3-2 lead and the Giants lost 5-3. On July 16 he had an error that led to 3 unearned runs that gave the Pads an 11-2 lead. I think it’s safe the say the game was already over by then.
My preference? Play Crawford.
Mine would be Hall at second, Kepp at short.
I said during the Beltran run up to trade that he would not impact the lineup much because the lineup sucked so badly in the first place, plus he was injury prone. Nevertheless, he was brought here, and should have helped somewhat at least because he would be the best hitter on the team. Of course, he got hurt, and until recently, hasn’t done jack, and starting getting unfairly skewered for possibly being some sort of malingerer. Now that he’s healed up, and hitting like a wildman, it’s still not nearly enough to generate heat that will warm up the season long ice on the bats of the surrounding talent. Sabean should have figured that out, and gotten Bourn instead, which would not have cost much, as Atlanta proved, but would have at least added a true lead off hitter for next year even if the team still cratered through this season. It was a mistake, but not one of the worst he’s made…
Actually, as I’ve shown, he’s had ample opportunity to be that Big BowWow and impact the offense- he’s had more opportunities both with runners on and with RISP than Albert Pujols. It’s nice he’s heated up now, we can hope it’s not too late, but his 3 RBI in 60 AB in August were a major factor in the slide… MAJOR.
And sorry, but winging it up at Hooters at 1:30 A.M. and missing the subsequent game is inexcusable.
Well, he was hurt, Mike . . .
Doesn’t that give him a pass?
No. Torres, Ross, Dirty, Fontenot, probably a few more got no steeenking pass.
BLEEP HIM!
at least it’s a family restaurant.
Well, if Beltran AND Pablo could start hitting at the same time (and throw in Keppie to boot), they might start scoring runs . . . .
BTW, Bourn has sucked for Atlanta. 11-16 in SB, strike out machine as always, whopping .322 OBP, .670 OPS.
What’s with all this nonsense of blowing up the roster this off season? SF will have Posey and Sanchez returning with Huff, Sandoval, Belt on the roster. It will be the typical tweaking to fill the other spots. While I would like to see a significant add like Fielder (pie in the sky, I know) Sabean will do his usual bargain basement rummaging.
I do worry about Cain and sticking around though and would like to see ownership sack up with a significant increase in payroll to cover the lost years and dollars of Zito. Beltran for 2 years would be nice but I don’t see it happening. Too bad. Dude has made his money and would be hard pressed to join a team primed to compete but he’ll chase the money elsewhere.
As soon as Bourn got there, they went on a 6-3 roadie tear, and haven’t looked back. They are a far more dangerous team now into the playoffs than before…
They were 17-9 in August, 16-11 July, 17-9 in June..he’s been of no significance.
Does not matter much, Atlanta will get their asses kicked by the Brewers, who will then kick Philly ass and then hopefully Red Sox or Yankee ass…
Atlanta can pitch. Plus, far better on the road than the Brew crew, which is 5 games under .500 on the road. I give Atlanta a very good shot against the Brewers. If Braves can sneak one in Milwaukee, they are good to go…
Finally- the team did not “crater”, they were debilitated by injury. They used the DL twice as often as AZ, and except for Drew, they were much more significant players.
Some real “facts”…
1) Bochy is not going anywhere…probably a two-year extension;
2) Crawford will never be an impactful major league shortstop, you either can hit or you cant and I cant see him hitting at this level;
3) No way you bring the soon to be DL and DH Beltran back. He represents the plug and play player that Sabean has lived off of. You dont build around Beltran, he needs to go the AL;
4) I’d rather see Keppinger than Cabrera at short for the remainder of the season, stick Cabrera at second as the Indians had done;
5) We know Sabean loves Cuddyer, if we cant trade for a bashing cleanup hitter with JSanchez, I would give Cuddyer no more than a one-year deal;
6) We then need to sign only one big free agent, one that changes the entire nature of the lineup and there is only one potential free agent that fits that bill…Jose Reyes. 5-year, $85 mill deal and maybe they can back end that so they only have to pay $12.5 for the first two years until Rowand and Zito’s contracts are no more. So much money is coming off the books this year and next (Ross and DeRosa themselves could pay for a $12.5 first year salary for Reyes) that gambling on a legit leadoff hitter and a younger shortstop that we have not had since Aurilia a decade ago is worth the risk!
I like your #4. You can play alternatively Kepp and Crawford at SS, see how Kepp handles it nowadays. He played several seasons at SS, but that was a few years ago. He’s auditioning for next year, they need to see if he can handle SS, because there may be no better alternative. I would think he’d welcome it, they already know he play 2nd, and he hits. If he can cover SS, he becomes even more valuable. The Font can play second when Kepp is at SS. Cabrera need not be seen again, he’s probably not even in MLB next year…
OK, I’ve listened to the following BS . . .
“Sabean should have figured that out, and gotten Bourn instead, which would not have cost much, as Atlanta proved, but would have at least added a true lead off hitter for next year even if the team still cratered through this season.”
“As for Bochy, well shit yeah. Yesterday he blew those moves, and he’s blown some before this year. He’s gotten a deserved golden and teflon toilet ring this year for last year’s efforts. But, he should not and will not get a break for stupid ass managing of personnel like this Cabrera stuff.”
“Manager: Bochy has recently made some boo-boos. No excuses beyond the accumulated frustrations of a season plagued with injuries and lack of anticipated performance levels by key players, centering on Tejada, Rowand and to a lesser degree, Huff. My suspicion is that nobody can come up with a cogent argument denying that Bochy is extremely partial to veterans with track records and consequently tends to have an extremely short fuse when it comes to rookies.”
“Yes, Bochy is the same as he’s always been. A capable manager, nothing more. He caught lightning in a bottle last year, assisted greatly by a historically dominant starting staff that destroyed the opposition down the stretch and through the playoffs. He could easily be replaced next season, and the team would not crater. They’ve already done that this season. The Giants should look towards the future now, and hire a younger manager to take them into the next half decade while the team still has a core of outstanding starters, assuming they re-sign or are not traded for position bodies…”
Bourn First . . .
Bourn has at least one hit in all four games in September thus far and has given the Braves a nice spark atop the lineup since coming over. He leads the majors with 49 stolen bases and is batting .299 on the year, which is over 30 points higher than the .265 he posted a year ago. Since being acquired from the Astros at the trade deadline, Bourn is batting .283 with 12 RBI and 10 stolen bases. Beltran is batting .318 with two home runs and seven RBI since being dealt to San Francisco, and he finished 3 for 4 with trio of RBI in the win. The veteran has swung the bat pretty well since joining the Giants and has racked up eight hits and three RBI over his last four contests. My take is that all things being equal (which they are not), both teams have done well in their acquisitions . . . However, the GIANTS FUCKING NEEDS ARE OVERWHELMINGLY MORE DAUNTING THAN THE BRAVES! In short, this is an unfair comparison. Beltran would have to be Willie Fucking Mays to pull this team’s fortunes above the Mendoza line. Sabean did well to put his finger in one dike, when there were holes all over the infield and outfield. I would also count Keppinger as a plus acquisition. So big deal that he missed on Cabrera. Frickin’ shortstops don’t grow on trees. Sheesh, even Sabean can’t be expected to fix this mess.
Bochy Second . . .
One of the greatest managers in MLB history, Casey Stengel, couldn’t do squat with the New York Mets . . . His immortal words still ring loud and clear, “Been in this game one-hundred years, but I see new ways to lose ’em I never knew existed before.” He also said, “When you are younger you get blamed for crimes you never committed and when you’re older you begin to get credit for virtues you never possessed. It evens itself out.” Give Bochy a break, he is still the same guy with the same strategies that won us the World Series last year. Not even Casey Stengel could do better with the players we have on the roster. ‘Nuff Said.
The single most important stat for a lead off hitter is OBP. .322 (Bourn) is just a tick better than Torres (.308), who is having an awful year. And unlike Vungo, Bourn has not ever sparked a team to the WS…I’ll reconsider his value if he ever does.
Ghead- what the hell happened? We agree on almost all of your post.
Bourn leads the league in steals at 50, so at least 50 times on first = getting in scoring position. Torres is 4 years older, has 17 steals and 40 points lower OPS. Bottom line, Bourn gets on first, he’s very likely to get on 2nd, something the Giants dearly lack. I wanted Torres to start for two weeks straight beginning when he came off the DL, but he’s done in the eyes of management — witness he hasn’t played much during crunch time, and he’s healthy. The trip to Puerto Rico with the supposed DL leg injury was telling of a rift. Sabes at best will offer him a minor league deal to see if he can show anything next Spring. My guess is he’ll try to hook on with another team in ST and will get cut near the end. There have been snippets of media through the season about problems with adjusting his meds and that impacting his performance. The Giants don’t want or need to deal with that on a continuing basis…
The other free agent that would intrigue me is Ethier, but liek Cuddyer, no more than a one-year deal to gauge his injury…
Sorry, Etheir is arb aligible, but the specualtion has been because of their financial constraints, the Dodgers would not offer arbitration and let him walk…
Twin, a moment of clarity? I think I see the team for what they are, no need for wholesale changes or to bring up 10 rookies..couple right moves, I think we win the NL next year, but you cant ever predict injuries. I think we both agree that if we did not suffer so much this year with injuries, would have at least arguably been closer in the race.
The two big mistakes were not adding a capable vet catcher when Posey went down and Tejada was a panic signing when Uribe went to LA LA land..I said it then, for three years and what $21 mill, Uribe was not worth that kind of money. I also said I would have given Huff a $7 mill/year deal for two years…c’est lavie…I think Belt will also have a good winter, clear hi shead and begin to rake in spring training. But they just need to name him the starter at first base, Huff can play left…
Whether they pursue a SS would depend on Crawford and Adrianza, IMO. Ehire is just 22 and finally showed he MIGHT hit (.300 with a .800+ OPS, but at San Jose.) Crawford hit well there but nowhere else. Then there’s Panik. I say if they think any of these guys would be MLB caliber within a couple years, they go with Keppinger and Fruckie now. The OF is obviously the big question mark. I’d guess that if they made that call right now for 2012, it would be Belt, Ross, Schierholtz ( I had thought they’d let Ross move on, now I’m not so sure.) Certainly Christian and/or Torres will at least compete for a reserve spot. I was loving Peguero until we heard about the walks- 12 for the year in 350+ AB, for a #1 type hitter-OMG. I missed that-shame on me. As usual, the FA list is less than inspiring. Anyway, all intellient observers know there won’t be any blow up of the team, as they don’t need one. As it stands now, they’d be the favorites again, with the pitching staff looking even stronger..
uribe out for the year. hitting .204
Glad you’re not the GM. No offense intended.
Ethier has been shelved by LA and is visiting Dr. Andrews for a knee fix. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dodgers/2011/09/dodgers-shut-down-andre-ethier.html
Appears to be minor injury, should be fine for ST. I’d look at him for sure if he doesn’t get arb. He’ll be 30, career OPS over .800, the SF outfield is wide open, he won’t be that expensive. And, since he’s coming off an injury, Sabes should be on him like a fly on you know what…
may be worth a gamble for 1-year on Ethier, I would still work a trade for a real cleanup hitter, Quentin is still the one I like…
Get ready to give one or two top pitchers. NO WAY!
Cuddyer is a possible OFer, but near an attractive nuisance for an overpaying Sabes. From what I’ve seen of him, he’s not that athletic and pretty slow. 32 and maybe physically older than his years, strikes out a lot. He does have RH’d pop, which the Giants need. Giants really need to get its OF young and fast to take advantage of ATTs wide open spaces, not more mid 30s slow dudes to play more station to station Bochyball…
G-Head: I’d like Reyes, too but 5 yrs @ $85M won’t come close to making it happen. A much more reasonable acquisition is Angel Pagan who could leadoff and play CF. Tailed off and had some injury problems after an excellent 2010. He can steal bases, field, hits triples and has occasional power.
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As far as managers and coaches go, check out Joe Torre’s record before he got a $200 million dollar payroll to play with. And what a genius Wooden was to trot out the likes of Alcindor, Walton, Wicks, Goodrich, Hazzard, Wilkes, Rowe, Bibby, Allen, Meyers, etc…
A new hitting coach is another probability. Forget the Bonds fantasy. I want Will Clark…
Will Clark has better things to do. Plus who wants all that travel?
Don’t underestimate the chance to get away from your wife…
No he doesn’t . . .
Baggs reports Tejada and Squatty unconditionally released. Shocking, no trade. Shoot, and I was hoping for that dozen bats and gross of balls. Kruk yet to confirm that Squatty is now up to 550 practice swings/day in his home cage…
Move on, “counselor”. They’re gone, plenty of new material for you.
Just in time to benefit from Obama’s new job act…
Congrats, Wilco Joe!
Meulens will undoubtedly get the ax, as if he coached Huff, Torres, et al beautifullly last year then plum forgot what he did.As I posted before, if the hitting coach could really do what Room B thinks he can, he’d make more money than the players he coaches..
Yeah, they’re sort of the sacrificial lambs of baseball. Their coaching careers have meteroic story arcs. I was at a Single A game several years where one of the teams was a Dodger affiliate, and Jack Clark was the hitting coach. I stuck around after the game, and Clark signed autographs, and he signed my Giants cap. The next season (I think), Clark was promoted to the big team, and had a real successful season or two with the L.A. Dodgers, but then the team had an off-year in hitting, and Clark was fired. I have no idea what he’s doing these days.
I have Jack Clark’s autograph on the underside of the bill of that cap, and one other autograph. Can you guess who it is? If you guessed……..Ellis Burks, you are correct! I got the autograph after he’d left the Giants, when he was playing for the Indians. They were playing the A’s that day, and Burks was being very cool and signing for people before the game.
There was a time when I used to go to A’s games once in a while. (grin)
And I want one more try at the word “meteoric.”
My sister called my career meteroic once. Once!
Zumie, I believe I saw Jack Clark doing color commentary for the Cardinals broadcast this year…
Wilcoe, Rider is a cool name. I figured the GD-Jerry connection, but the rider concept has been sung about ever since the blues began.
You got Midnight Rider, Low Rider, or even Travelling Riverside Blues by Zeppelin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1JAhFAQigY
Nice lil’ feature on Brandon Belt via Yahoo Sports baseball coverage. Also linked from there to a McCovey Chronicles piece on him. No question in that article as to who really got dicked around this season.
Yeah, yeah.
Hey, it’s an off day.
On the right is a link to vote on Bochy’s future.
Magnus, thanks for the Flap. Many happy returns — 500, and then some.
And, of course, Bochy should be back. A thought contrary to that never crossed my mind. Honestly. I drank the WS brand of Kool-Aid. And loved it.
Snarrk was adamant that he shouldn’t be back, I wanted to see more opinions.
that’s ludicrous — but just my opinion — and like you know what everyone has one
Exactly. A WS win or appearance gives you lifetime kudos, but not a lifetime appointment. Dusty didn’t even get a season, McGowan bounced him 7 over the offseason just after the 2002 WS appearance. And he was far more beloved and invested in by SF Fans than Bochy. Rightfully so, Bochy is on the pedestal for winning the first WS here, but he’s not beloved by the SF fan base by any stretch…
The Splash is full of guys like Snarkk. Wild-eyed critics that want to sweep out the whole show. Managers are always being scapegoated.
Nipp, button it, clown…
Congratulations, Craig, and thanks from all of our little baseball-shaped hearts for this blog. Like I’ve said, it’s often my “morning newspaper read” when I awake in the Saigon morning and it’s evening and game time in the US. As for Bochy, just as most here say, he’s the same as always, he just got into such a great rhythmic zone last year as he pulled the right strings and the players responded. This year, he has pulled the strings — it was the players not performing (or not being able to because of the ridiculous amount of injuries) that made those strings not appear to always be the right strings. This year has probably not been much fun for him; he’s had to watch AND manage the same far-too-often ineptitude that we all have at times painfully had to watch as well. Should be a very interesting off-season….
Good one Loo on the talented players Wooden was fortunate enough to work with. I still use a version of his 2-2-1 zone press, which still works. But it’s the players on the floor stealing the ball, not me.
but Pete Newell kicked Wooden’s ass for quite a while…and wrote better books too. His one on post moves is the bible, without any of the pyramid BS.
“Bochy is on the pedestal for winning the first WS here, but he’s not beloved by the SF fan base by any stretch”
People ike Snarkk always think they represent the “fan base”.Nothing could be further frm the truth. He likes to point to the forum here when he perceives the consensus is against my view… well, so far, Snarkles, your view has been renounced..
So Oracle represents the Giants fan base? Right. Huge sample size you have for the Giants fan base — you and less than a handful here tonight. Get out and read and listen and see the media. Bochy is not beloved by any stretch, and he’s getting wide criticism for continuing to play Cabrera. The Giants world extends far beyond the Flap and your constant delusions of control over it…
well, he controls nothing here, but you’re right, there is a wider view of how most fans view Bochy. From the big screen, it’s mostly negative………
I like Bourn, but he sure didn’t do much when Atl played SF. You can have all the rabbits you want,but someone has to drive them in. Beltran and co have not been able to do that. If SF could have gotten Bourn plus beltran plus Pence, life would be different. But to get just one, giving up minimal non-position player prospect, you can’t fault Sabes.
I’ll tell you this too… let bochy trot out manuel’s everyday LU full of all stars, and throw lee halladay and hamels out there, and he’s probably in another parade. I’d like to see what charlie could do with what bochy had.
dusty got bounced, and rightfully so, because he proved he couldn’t manage in the post-season. Got there. but couldn’t win it. Not ruthless enough. Bochy proved he can manage the 162 season, AND the completely different season that happens afterwards. He also does a nice job with the pitching staff.
I do believe that Bochy WAS beloved by Giants nation last year; how could he not be? He was nails, every move worked. So this year, he’s not beloved because he’s playing Cabrera? Or because he never had a full-deck of players to put out there, ever, all year? He can’t go out there and field the grounders or swing the bat. Anybody blaming Bochy for this season’s short-comings isn’t playing with a full deck either.
I don’t think Bochy is getting blamed for the season record. At least here anyway. But when the chips have been down he’s attached himself completely to the base of the vet-tree. Like a warm blanket or something. And he’s made many poor decisions (Pill not getting PR for is a recent one but there have been a dozen since the Flap Party and 2 dozen before that). It’s not his fault we are failing but he’s using the same managing formula he always uses and for this team it doesn’t work and he’s got no back up plan. Fact……..
Some criticism may be “fact” but nearly all second guesses are not. He’s done better this year than last. Fact.
( well, as much “fact” as the previous OPINION)…
Snarkk as GM: Boch you won a World Series for us, but you played Cabrera too much!! Your services are no longer needed!
All fans second guess, that doesn’t mean they view the manager negatively as a whole. And I didn’t say I represent the fan base- just that Snarkk doesn’t. And fuck any inference that I try to control Flavor’s blog. It never should have been responded to. I’d be interested in the research hat led to the conclusion that Bochy is viewed nagatively as a whole. Agreeing or disagreeing on Cabrera is not proof, so don’t go there.
My God, imagine 40,000 Damon Bruce’s at the ballpark… that’s Snarkk’s imaginary “fan base”
This is not a fire Bochy thing because of Cabrera. It’s the mind set as BF says in 9:12. The 2010 season was great, but 2011 and those in future are not repeats of 2010. That formula can never be the same. When half the team goes down with injury, it’s not your fault, but you get creative. Play more small ball, bring up younger players with energy, and stick with ’em instead of trotting out the same old vets that are cratering the offense. I want a guy that tries new things when the SOS over and over ain’t working. Cabrera is just the latest symptom. I don’t want that management next year, or the year after that. Because when this great pitching quality dips, and it will one way or another, that management style will get you 90+ losses…
Well, there is no “fire Bochy thing”, Snarkk. Except in the sense that there are “Fire” or “Fuck” or “Can” sites for all 30 managers.
Hush up with the “2010 season was great”. Until the results gave you no choice but to capitulate, you trashed Bonehead all year long.
Bochy has done things he’s never tried before… anyway, unless he steps aside, he’ll be here, so live with it. And using Crawford as who should be playing is just asinine. He has no good option there.
Yes, he’ll be here another year unless BowTie gets an unlikely wild hair. I hope Sabes gets Bochy credible vets for 2012 so he can manage to his comfy old Earl Weaver style and despite it, still score 4 rpg for the staff. Who knows, maybe Sabes will shock the world and get half a dozen players in here, all 30 and under, so that Bochy has to put ’em on the card, or have Wotus do it for him — since his hand will shake at the thought of such youth on the field all at once…
The list of “kids” who Bochy has given signifcant playing time to is pretty long, Snarkkles. I don’t think I’d want to make my case on Brian Bocock II.
I loved Earl Weaver as a manager…. tomato plants in the bullpen, cigarettes in the tunnel to the clubhouse… pitching, D, and the 3-run HR. Good stuff.
Yeah, that was an interesting choice. Maybe good ole Doltin’ Joe Altobelli would have worked better for Snarkk’s purposes.
You just love writing that kid’s name, don’t you? Kind of a bad example, since everyone knows he got played on an emergency basis because they had no other choices at SS, due to Sabes stellar management of the minor league organization during the late Bonds era.
G’night all…
Actually, it was others (you among them, without doubt ) who enjoyed all those incredibly witty variations. My example is appropriate- two kids who can’t hit a lick but play credible defense…
I am proud to be part of 69000 comments. Good stuff for out-of-towners like p and me. A real connection back to SF and the game.
I see Bochy’s weak points, but also his strengths. If only he were super human and able to change the way he works in a single bound. Brilliant bullpen switches one day, one day going strictly by gut. I often wish I could.
BTW, I completely lost track of baseball last month due to personal commitments. Last thing I remember we were leaving Philly having won a series. Now we are struggling.
See ya at tonight’s game.
I’ve often said Prince Fielder and Jose Reyes ain’t coming here, nor albert Pujols, to replace cabrera, rowand, tejada and huff.
Loo made an interesting comment about reyes, viz. angel pagan. I pointed out earlier in the year how similar their stats were for 2010, and how in some ways Pagan was bettter. So how do you view Reyes going forward? Is he worth $12 mill a year for multiple years, or is 2011 the classic contract year?
would you feel the same about Prince Fielder and his 1.000 OPS? Can he continue to do that anywhere, including ATT? for multiple years at mega bucks?
In short, is the type of deal Sabes needs to make at all costs, while paying up as much as he can for Sando and the SPs, plus ramirez, romo and lopez?
I guess the real question is, does anyone see the payroll going up to, say $125 – $150 million in the next year or two? It could happen, I suppose.
This is the territory we’re looking at if they want to make a splash in the FA market.