A Few Loose Ends as we Wait for P/C’s to Report
Well, the Winter Meetings have come and gone–mostly free agent signings, no big trades, lots of tweets that led to nothing, as I suspected. Our LU is now basically set with just a couple of minor decisions to make. Here’s what I would do:
1) Sign Chris Stewart to back up Posey and send Hector Sanchez down to AAA. Stewart backs up Posey while Sanchez gets a month or two more of valuable playing time. If Stewart is showing he’s a glaring weakness by the middle of May, bring Sanchez up then–he can play twice a week against left handed pitchers with Posey moving to first base……..
2) Fonte-yes! Offer him arbitration instead of Keppy. I think they’ll do this just to save a little money but it’s probably the right call just because Font can play SS with more predictability and probable success than Keppy can. Plus, he’s got more pop than Kepp and can PH better than he can…..
3) I’ve been kicking around the outfield scenarios and there’s one that I just don’t think has gotten enough attention: Bochy is saying Nate is his starting RF but the more I think about it, the more I could see the following develop: Belt has a monster spring and Nate has a bad/mediocre Spring. Belt wins an outfield spot (either playing LF or RF with Melky playing the *other* corner spot) and Nate resumes his accustomed 4th OF role. In my opinion, Nate is a better late inning PH weapon/defensive replacement than he is a starter. He’d be more durable that way, too. Anyway, I think this could easily happen………
With the additions of Melky (a 200 hit player. Will Clark never had 200 hits in a season) and Angel (stolen base artist extraordinaire) as well as the return of Freddy Sanchez, Posey and an *on* year from Huff (or a coming out year for Belt) that is FIVE additions to the offense that we didn’t have last year. I’m fine with the team as it is now. When you upgrade 5 of the 8 possible LU spots, and you actually managed to drop your payroll a little bit, you have done more than any reasonable fans could expect you to do as a GM. I’m feeling very confident about the 2012 season on December 9th………
Retro Time……….
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I’m growing weary of 1979, so let’s fast forward to the third to last game of the season. It’s September 28th and exactly 2,861 fans showed up for this one. If that’s correct, that’s hilarious. We lost 2-0 by a complete game gem from Eric Rassmussen. Winfield banged his 34th bomb. Besides The Boney One turning 9 years old today, it’s also exactly 32 years before one of the most electrifying and memorable days in baseball history: September 28th, 2011.
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
To me the greatest Giant of all is Edgar Renteria! If Mike fucking Fontenot hit that dinger he would have been the greatest (in my book).
I’ve never been a fan of the tag great or greatest because it’s all subjective (Fats or Dizzy, Jimi or Beck, Stones or NRBQ, Chef Paul or Julia) whatever the category people will have favorites, all with some merit. Now favorite Giants for me is kinda off the wall. Yes Mays, McCovey and both Bonds but also players like Beck, Mitchell, Clayton, Nenn, Chili and Thompson have been at the top of my list. Some guys that didn’t or haven’t played here long are there as well, like Big Cat, Lofton, Burks, Swift, Mota, Panda, Franchez and Torres.
By the most part, it’s usually someone who just looks like they are having fun while playing the game but also some of my favs are guys that just astounded me in what they could do.
I guess my point is, everyone can pick the greatest baseball player, guitar player, band, trumpet player, chef or whatever and yes, they will be on a greatest list somewhere but so will other folks favorites. It’s like betting all the top seeds during March Madness, your going to lose because they still have to play the game and on any given day someone can be greater.
Sorry, had a migrane today–down for the count. I’m partial to Loo’s preliminary list of Great Giants. But if you think Torres qualifies, I’ve got no problem with that at all. I see where you’re coming from……
I really had no idea that the notion of Andres being a great Giant would evoke so much negative reponse. I thought more people would appreciate the whole of what “great” might mean. I was wrongo, bongo.
Ryan Braun tested positive for PEDs. That’ll give ’em an extra 50 days next yr to admire his undeserving MVP trophy.
No, it’s got nothing to do with Torres. It has to do with you being the arbiter of bad, good, great, or whatever, Mike. And how you think your opinions matter more than any of ours. You come across VERY heavy-handed when you react to others opinions. I’ve always liked Darrell Evans. I know plenty of people who couldn’t stand him. I don’t try to convince people of what I picture him in my head. I just nod and say fine, I liked the guy. Same with Johnnie LeMaster, and Jack Clark. I grew up watching that team, so I like a lot of players that others regularly ridicule. I don;t huff and puff and tell others how they should feel about players. Good, bad, or average.
And your comment re: Will Clark? Let’s just say, your pettiness is showing. . .
Twin, you’re not wrong or “wrongo, bongo” as you put it, nor is anyone else here. It’s an opinion and personal choice . . . I have no idea why you might be offended by someone exercising their right to disagree with your opinion. Likewise, no one should be offended about your opinion . . .
However, there is one caveat to the aforementioned – when either you or someone else becomes personally offensive and/or insists that their opinion is the “right” one and everyone else is full of shit. I really think it’s as simple as that.
One other thought, similar to religion and politics, no one is going to change my mind about Willie Mays being my number one baseball hero of all time. Not going to happen. Same thing with my liberal politics, nor my non-religious spiritual leanings. Conversely, I am not going to convince . . . umm, Bozo that Edgar Renteria is not the greatest Giant. Sure, I might discuss it with him or ask him questions about it, but I respect him too much to tell him that he is full of shit. In effect, it’s a personal choice based upon his own experience growing up as a Giants fan.
I’m afraid that the reaction to my calling Andres a great Giant is what was over top. Way over the top. He denigrates what it means to be a great Giant? Bullshit. He epitomizes it…as I said, I over estimated this board on this.
Over the top? Wtf are you talking about? People just disagreed, it was hardly over the top. Talking down to the board, like you’re some higher being is what’s over the top.
Snarkkles saying he would denigrate what being great Giant is totally over the top- many many people have posted on the other blogs that they consider him a great Giant.
If they hadn’t won the WS would you still consider him a great Giant?
Or if he had signed elsewhere after 2010?
Sure wish Hanger would weigh in…
As far as calling people full of shit, Snark always is and I will always call him on it. Chuckles just has a problem admitting that he’s wrong , even after he is presented with proof ( as with the claim that Nate had played LF before and just last night on his blog, insisting that Smith has thrown 2 Red Zone interceptions. Presented witrh proof, it was “well it CLOSE to the Red Zone.” None of this would be a BFD if he wouldn’t insist over and over that he’s right, despite evidence to the contrary staring at him. Fact is there is no dispute that Torres is a great Giant- if a person considers him that, he is.
I just re-read the thread to see if I missed something “over the top.” There wasn’t. WilliD got a little chirpy but that’s after you used the word “ignorant” in reference to him. The fact is, you’re obsessing on this topic and most everyone else could care less and are just disagreeing with you. Free country, right?
Well, unfortunately, he WAS wrong saying no med can help a guy hit a curve. Without his medication properly adminisitered, Torres was fucked.
I cited Baggs’ article on that, even that was challanged.
Personally, I think Chuck is having a very solid year on the Flap.
He’s coming up with new BLEEPS everyday!
50 game suspension for Ryan Braun. PEDs. I’m sure I’m late with this, but , , ,
As I said earlier, I just think most are dealing with a limited defintion of “greatness”. Using Bonds again- he was a great player but hardly a great Giant. He brought to shame to the Giants. Using a different example from the Great Giants page, Cain is a great Giant. Kent is a great ballplayer, Lincecum is a great Giant.
Actually I think Loo’s list from earlier today covered most of it..
That’s your opinion, Mike. I think he’s a great Giant. mainly because without him, we don’t have a stadium at 3rd and King.
I think most people aren’t concerned with anointing “greatness” upon him or anyone else from that team. Torres probably could give a shit, too. He’s probably more focused on re-starting his stalled career. Same with Pagan. All this “good” and “great” stuff gets taken care of with the passage of time.
There was no reason to challenge it- if I consider him a great giant he was, to me ( and many others) . Looking through the responses, except for Craig, I didn’t see anyone stating “Well, that’s your opinion and I respect it.” This got testy when I posted Baggarly’s article on Andres’ problem with the meds. Which was attacked. Spare me the wahhhh routine, Chuckie, I ‘m not complaining I’m pointing out a fact-as usual there’s no respect for a minorty opinion.
Again, the passage of time answers all the questions about the “place” a player has in a team’s history. No reason to rush them there. Example: bonds was probably considered a “great giant” by many….until the Mitchell Report came along and all the litigation and and asterix talk brought “shame to the City” (as you accurately put it).
No reason to argue about shit that time answers for us down the road…
I was just challenging the assertion that Torres is the most beloved member of the 2010 team by Giants fans. There’s no way to actually factually verify that, and it’s not true for me.
Good point. This is a guy who wasn’t even going to start in 2012. And all the flowery posts on baggs blog had more to do with wishing him well, honoring his contributions, etc. If he was so “beloved” then I would expect fans to be flooding sabean’s inbox with protests and canceling their season ticket plans.
True,I only have the tributes on Baggarly’s blog (and all over the web). I ‘ve certainly never seen such an outpouring of love and an admiration for a Giant.I consider the below very compelling evidence
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2011/12/06/a-grateful-andres-torres-ill-put-some-part-of-the-giants-in-my-heart/
Another way to judge that sort of thing would be by other things, like jerseys that the fans are wearing, handwritten signs that fans bring to the game, etc.
Actually, he could of course be “beloved” without fans canceling ticket plans in protest– migraine is still fogging me up. But I don’t know how anyone would quantify who was “most beloved” w/o polling everyone. We know he was more beloved than RAmirez– that is a fact…
Now, if you wanna change topics I would like to argue against Big Titty being considered a “great giant”. At least, for me. He clearly is one to some fans.
Molina’s legacy with Giants fans got tarnished a little by the perception that he got a little whiny at the end. It’s just a perception, but fans base a lot on perception. We don’t have full insight into the world of pro athletes. A lot of stuff is filtered through the media in different ways. I think the fans that read Baggarly’s book will think better of Molina than maybe they did at the time of his leaving.
Have it, I anticipated plenty of grief on that.
Eh, mAybe tomorrow. Don’t have it in me tonight
I wasn’t going to read it tonight anyway.
In one of the most ill-advised post-game press conferences ever, an Xavier player brags about his team having some “gangsters” on it. That’s an ugly ending to a basketball game.
On the other hand, the Indiana/Kentucky game ended with a buzzer-beating game-winning shot, that sent Indiana fans into glorious celebration, and everyone thanking James Naismith for inventing the game.
Semantics are often at the heart of any discussion trying to define superlatives like best, great, etc., for anything (best bars, actors, islands in the sea, players). Michael simply said, perhaps in large part because of some sadness that Andres is gone, that he was a great Giant. Best player ever, of course not. “Great” can be defined on stat sheets for performance on offense over a career, and also in people’s minds for how they *felt* about a player. Kent is a good example. Some would define him as a great Giant because his performance was so solid and significant to the team over a period of years; others, not, because he was a bit of an asshole and maybe didn’t embody “the Giants way”, etc. So I suppose any in-depth discussion of *great* players needs a definition of great for the purposes of that discussion. And clearly Michael’s opinion was not designed to instigate such a discussion, he was just giving his opinion of how he felt about Andres.
For me, the trade (which is of course what started this whole thing) seems ok because, as Craig said, Torres was probably not even going to be starting, in the team’s management view (although that could’ve changed during the season), and Pagan clearly is slated for starting CF and probably leading off, a rational decision by management on what they think is best for this year’s team. Whether that turns out to be true remains to be seen. But also for me, when I think of 2010 and still get that basking feeling, I do think of Andres as the MVP (performance-wise and inspiration-wise) of that “greatest team in SF history”, as Reno called it, which kind of makes him a great Giant, even if it was for just one season. One World Championship in the team’s entire SF history kind of creates a special category all its own….
I see my post complimented the end of your post. “great” minds … 🙂
I don’t have a “most beloved” player from the 2010 team. The whole team came in tied for first place. Twin, you had a potd on November 1st ’10. It went something like “these men will be heros for as long as they live–and beyond” — that’s how I remembered it anyway. And that’s how I feel about Torres and all the rest of the players on that team.
As I posted earlier- I consider every player from the 2010 team a “good” Giant. I don’t think this team can be judged by normal standards. Those that I have chosen as great Giants are the men who I would choose to represent that team as performers and inspirations. If anything I’ve left some out. I do have some favorites but I think my “great” list is on merit.
What a nightmare/PR-disaster for baseball, with the Braun situation. Baseball has tried to distance itself from the “steroid era” and that era hasn’t ended.
Nightmare indeed, Zum. MLB has (rightly) refrained from retroactively punishing people like Bonds (can’t take away his homerun total, could possibly only do the “asterisk thing”). But I wonder if MLB might start considering such kind of punishment moving forward, from now on… like, with Braun. No one has ever been stripped of an award, they said. Not yet. It could be a deterrent….
Well, whether you call it medicine, technology. whaetver- it doesn’t go backwards. There might have been a hiatus, but the steroid era will never be over. The PEDs will just get “better” and more undetectable..IMO
Yes, Michael, you’re right. Players who stay ahead of the curve will get away with it. And if someone like Braun is dumb enough to take such meds that ARE detectable, then perhaps punishment is fitting and he should be stripped. That doesn’t exonerate the “ahead of the curve” *cheaters*, but at least it might make *cheating* more difficult.
I don’t think I saw Robert Griffin or Andrew Luck play this year (more into NFL), so I have no idea who had the inside track on the Heisman Trophy, but congratulations to both of them for competing this year, with Griffin winning the Heisman Trophy. Luck was very gracious, saying, “Very much well deserved.”
Luck is an example of a great guy and a great player to boot.
So, Luck is a great Cardinal? …… 🙂
So, they knew Braun tested positive during the playoffs, yet they still allowed him to win the MVP award? I’m going to hold off my personal judgement of Braun, because I understand he is disputing that he “knowingly” took a PED . . . That being said, I have no respect for Selig, i.e., he had the test results before the MVP award announcement. Minimally, he could have delayed the announcement (until Braun’s appeal was heard and PED results were unassailable) or overruled the MVP results and given the award to Kemp.
I want to correct my last post . . . Selig can be blamed for a lot of things, but I guess he doesn’t have control over the MVP award. This is something the Baseball Writers of America bestow on a player. In any event, I stand corrected.
The St. Louis Cardinals have reached agreement with shortstop Rafael Furcal on a two-year deal worth about $14 million. Unfrickin’ believable . . . Glad it’s not the Giants signing his checks.