A Few Loose Ends as we Wait for P/C’s to Report
Well, the Winter Meetings have come and gone–mostly free agent signings, no big trades, lots of tweets that led to nothing, as I suspected. Our LU is now basically set with just a couple of minor decisions to make. Here’s what I would do:
1) Sign Chris Stewart to back up Posey and send Hector Sanchez down to AAA. Stewart backs up Posey while Sanchez gets a month or two more of valuable playing time. If Stewart is showing he’s a glaring weakness by the middle of May, bring Sanchez up then–he can play twice a week against left handed pitchers with Posey moving to first base……..
2) Fonte-yes! Offer him arbitration instead of Keppy. I think they’ll do this just to save a little money but it’s probably the right call just because Font can play SS with more predictability and probable success than Keppy can. Plus, he’s got more pop than Kepp and can PH better than he can…..
3) I’ve been kicking around the outfield scenarios and there’s one that I just don’t think has gotten enough attention: Bochy is saying Nate is his starting RF but the more I think about it, the more I could see the following develop: Belt has a monster spring and Nate has a bad/mediocre Spring. Belt wins an outfield spot (either playing LF or RF with Melky playing the *other* corner spot) and Nate resumes his accustomed 4th OF role. In my opinion, Nate is a better late inning PH weapon/defensive replacement than he is a starter. He’d be more durable that way, too. Anyway, I think this could easily happen………
With the additions of Melky (a 200 hit player. Will Clark never had 200 hits in a season) and Angel (stolen base artist extraordinaire) as well as the return of Freddy Sanchez, Posey and an *on* year from Huff (or a coming out year for Belt) that is FIVE additions to the offense that we didn’t have last year. I’m fine with the team as it is now. When you upgrade 5 of the 8 possible LU spots, and you actually managed to drop your payroll a little bit, you have done more than any reasonable fans could expect you to do as a GM. I’m feeling very confident about the 2012 season on December 9th………
Retro Time……….
_______________________________________________________________
I’m growing weary of 1979, so let’s fast forward to the third to last game of the season. It’s September 28th and exactly 2,861 fans showed up for this one. If that’s correct, that’s hilarious. We lost 2-0 by a complete game gem from Eric Rassmussen. Winfield banged his 34th bomb. Besides The Boney One turning 9 years old today, it’s also exactly 32 years before one of the most electrifying and memorable days in baseball history: September 28th, 2011.
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
GO GIANTS!
If Belt rips it up in ST, why he then not start at first? His defense is superior at first while Huff is just ok. Belt’s defense in left is no better than Huff’s. Belt’s future is at 1B, while huff is not a Giant beyond this year. We have even seen this off-season Bochy allude to the idea that Belt will be a better fit at 1b and Huff in left.
It is a no brainer to me if belt rips in spring. He can then sit against lefties to let posey get those starts…
because the Giants are going to see what their 11 million buys them from Huff. He’ll get at least 6-8 weeks, I would think……
Flav I’m in agreement about the OF, except I expect to see Huff in LF and Belt starting at 1B. Using Nate as the late inning guy and moving Melky from Right to Left (pretty much how they used Pat and Ross). But it all will come down to who has the hot hand and match ups. That’s my guess anyway.
Like twin pointed out, we only have 3 major league OFs with Belt and Huff trying to fill out the 4 and 5. But we have 4 guys splitting time at first (Huff, Belt, Pill and Posey) 5 if you count some time for the Panda. That’s sounds kinda risky if you ask me. Baggs says the Giants are trying to resign Ishi, if that happens I would assume Huff or Belt will be traded for another OFer.
I think Christian will make the team as the utility OF
Your last sentence is what I was thinking John . . . Ishi performed in the past (outstanding as a pinch hitter) and we need someone like that. Couple that with outstanding defense, bring him back . . . LIKE NOW. Regarding your trade comment – I hope Huff is the trade bait, not Belt.
Clowns rule! Except the scary ones . . .
Almost forgot – we still need to trade for a short stop, either a back up to Crawford or someone who will provide him competition for the job. Keppinger and Fontenot do not excite me, but if I have to choose, I want Fontenot.
The Giants are all in on Burris
I agree about Huff over Belt Blade. More salary room and a more long term potential with Belt. The only problem is Belt would probably bring more in a trade and if the Giants plan is to move Posey to 1B after this year, Belt would be A: switched to the Outfield or B:the better trade option.
BTW, I don’t want to see Belt traded but something has to give at 1B. IMO
Hmm. I’m not usually much of a contrarian (sp?) here at the Flap, but it’s late on Friday night in Saigon and I’m making this quick…. Stewart sucks, Sanchez should be the backup and actually get some playing time spotting Buster. Fontenot has the occasional good game or two, but if the team is relying on him to solidify SS, wow… Keppinger over Font. And personally, I never want to see Huff in the outfield again. Good firstbaseman. If he can’t regain his mojo at the plate while playing first, then he’s probably gone, but he should be starting at 1B to open. Belt and Pill et al are probably better candidates to get some outfield time. Agree about Travis, love the dude, bring him back if they can. And I like Nate but like I said before, I’ll believe he’s the man in RF when I see it. In short, Nate and Belt are the keys to forcing the issues. I hope they both come out gang-busters.
I like the idea of Pill on the team. He can provide some right handed pop off the bench, something we have NONE of……
I hope that prescription is filled.
Wow, Kurt Bevacqua….was a running joke me and a guy I played softball with for a long time had. “KURT!”
I think Belt has to play regardless of whose pitching…he has the potential to hit more HRs than anyone. Huff hit 26 in 2010, including 12 at home and Bill James projects Belt can do that too. None of the other guys in the mix for 1b/OF has the potential to do near that kind of damage.
In Twin’s room B thread he lists James’ projections for SPs, and he has Vogs ERA over 4.00 with a losing record. I said over there this would not surprise me one iota. So if he is your basic #5 starter, who else can step into the rotation becomes more important issue. The giants are probably still going to be middle of pack at best in runs scored, so holding the other team down when the Big 3 aren’t in there would be my biggest concern.
Sabean gets rid of guys he bad mouths. Huff is on the plank. Older vets who fail to produce vanish on a Sabean run team.
“All in on burriss”…oh f-bomb. He’s not even a good fielder, jittery and bobbles the routine shit. Not to mention he can barely hit his own weight, .160, with zero pop whatsoever. How many ABs last year til he got his first XBH? font, who couldn’t hit much either last year, is light years better than this guy.
I’m guessing there will be a new #5 starter. Obviously people are holding their breath on Vogelsong. Even if he slides a bit, if the team hits better (which is kinda sorta a must), he’ll probably be ok. I still cannot believe that management is thinking Zito is cool as the #5. That, plus SS, 4th/5th OFers, backup catcher… interesting positions that still need a little attention, or at least a positively competitive spring, which would be fun to see. Could well be another season of interesting and enjoyable evolution, as 2010 was.
One thing that strikes me about Vogelsong is that in his long sojourn through Japan and the Minors, he learned a few things about pitching. Personally, i’m not totally sold on all projections by Bill James and similar stats geeks. They may hit on 60% and more of their suppositions, but that leaves a bunch of slide room. My gut feeling is that he will not be as good as his outstanding start indicated, nor as badly as some would have it based on his bit of slippage late season. Hazarding a prediction, i’d say we are looking at an ERA in the 3.65 to 4.15 neighborhood ~ pretty much what you would expect out of a better #4 starter.
Ron Shandler, who was one of the early *Bill James* guys who went on to make a shit load of money selling his saber-metric numbers to the masses, finished in the bottom 1/4 of the National fantasy baseball championships in 2010 (he finished like 665th or so out of 800 players. I finished 114th). He had been so bad at it in ’08, ’09 and finally ’10 that he vowed to no longer play fantasy baseball competitively. The numbers are legit but it’s how you use them, which ones to emphasize and which ones to discount, that’s most important when projecting how a player is going to do in the upcoming year…..
How do you measure the affect of a big contract or a guy playing for one?
that’s a great question. You’d think it would be the obvious answer. But it rarely works out that way for the guy PLAYING for the big deal. The burden of a huge deal does seem to negatively affect a player, especially Year 1. Intangibles that you can’t quantify……..
Easy. Probably 75% of the time, a guy playing for a contract has at least a good, if not great year.
After signing? The good year percentage goes down to 55%.
Sure, that’s not hard and fast. But more often than not, good players up their game during a contract year.
Translation: You pulled those numbers out of your arse?
Just teasing you, chuck.
Exactly. But it sure seems to work out that way. I think it’s even more prevalent in football. Think ‘Randy Moss.’
Or Rickey (“For who? For what?”) Watters.
Ah I just love the banter back and forth over players when we have not even seen them in spring training. Okay so here is my two cents worht and yes it is only worth two cents since I am not a stat guy. Just gut instinct goes for me. Font is the guy for me. I think Huff has till May 1 to show last year was a fluke. I think most of you are just sentimentalist for Ishi. Don’t see a reason to pick him up. Stewart was better than Whiteside. and here is the way I see it shaking out. I see Belt in RF, Huff at first, if Huff goes in the tank offensively then Belt gets moved to 1st and Nate gets RF.
OK, I’m back from my morning workout . . . I’ve reviewed the comments and here are mine: Yes, no, no, yes, no, yes, yes, no, maybe, yes, are you fucking nuts?, no, no, yes, and maybe. 🙂
By the by, someone call Twin’s house and wake the fucker up – we start early here!
Stix- you just predicted what James sees from Vogelsong…a reasonable expectation
Ishi is being discussed for a possible minor league contract with an opportuniy to make the team. Amazing how many people don’t get the distinction between an ML contract and a major league one…
Nate will the RFer on opening day, presuming he’s healthy- for better or worse..
According to Baggs looks like they go with only the 3 “real” Ofers- but if they go with a MUCH NEEDED defensive replacememt, Tyler Graham would be my bet
With only the total dregs left as shortstop backups, might as well go with Burriss…
Kepp or Font- they’ll go wih the cheaper guy and hope Font’s 2011 was an outlier..
Funny, despite the 10 errors, I’m reading a lot that says a major benefit in getting Pagan is that it gets Melky out of CFer
As most observers already knew, the “contract year ” crap is a myth.
http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/13/yankees-phillies-astros-business-sports-bloomberg-baseball.html
You take a big enough sample size and EVERYTHING averages out. That’s why they call them average.
It’s just like ‘clutch’ hitting.
I’ll believe what I want to believe.
And, for good measure, fuck the numbers . . .
I kid, I kid . . .
Nobody wants to be average!
Exactly, ST, exactly. But it sure seems to work out that way.
That being said, I think it’s even more prevalent in football. Think ‘Randy Moss.’ Or Rickey (“For who? For what?”) Watters.
Actually, there is very little in James’ projections to take issue with. Belt’s numbers are surprising, other that they’re about what any reasonable observer would expect.As with any such thing, there’s room to differ, but the projections are completely reasonable.
Melky 516 AB .279 BA 11 HR 64 RBI .332 OBP .745 OPS
Pagan 504 AB .278 BA 8 HR 55 RBI .335 OBP .734 OPS
Crawdaddy 259 AB .232 BA 4 HR 22 RBI .297 OBP .637 OPS
Huff 391 AB .261 13 HR 55 RBI .334 OBP .756 OPS
Posey 523 AB .302 19 HR 80 RBI .366 OBP .828 OPS
Fruckie 462 AB .284 6 HR 47 RBI .326 OBP .713 OPS
Nate 294 AB .279 7 HR 35 RBI .327 OBP .766 OPS
Sandoval 537 AB .311 24 HR 86 RBI .363 OBP .888 OPS
Belt 527 AB .266 25 HR 79 RBI .358 OBP.840 OPS
10-12 4.09 Vogelsong
14-10 3.36 MadBum
16-9 3.04 Cain
15-9 3.11 Timmy
He has 2-2 for Zits
No call for Surkamp
Projections are like averages. Read the back of the card, project it forward. Pagan’s numbers look stratospheric compared to what we got last year. Huff’s look like shit. Whatever. Belt 25/79? 527 ABs? Really? Based on that Huff and Nate split OF duties while Belt becomes Albett Pujols lite . . .
Look at the 49ers this year. Say, Alex Smith. What were his projections?
How about Frank Gore’s? The over on Niner wins this year was 8.5. I don’t think very many prognosticators picked A Smith to be a top 15 QB let alone top 10.
Also, the naysayers are admitting that he should be given an extension and Harbaugh WILL endorse the extension.
Umm . . . Well, most naysayers (except the ones that bet the ponies too).
Picking out a couple guys doesn’t make a good case for you, Chuckie. Just say your usual “fuck the numbers” and move along. Or better yet- make your projections and save them, then compare. James’ projections are generally considered more optimistic than most, but at least the “Godfather of Sabermetrics” has a methodology.
James seems to suggest Belt will man 1b full time with Huff in LF, Pagan in RF and Nate as the 4th. Or is it Cabrerra in RF?
Avgs are in line. I’d hope for higher hr totals from Pablo and Huff. Belt hitting 25 would obviously be welcomed.
possibly the perennial poly but i’m looking forward to seeing what this team accomplishes. It would be great to have a “murderer’s row” like the ’27 yanks but that’s not going to happen. nor would i be comfortable even then (see the phillies the last two years). Teams win championships when everyone contributes. look at the cards and what his name with the big at bats. 2010, cody f-ing ross. who’d have thought. It would be nice to finally see speed and defense at Pac Belle.
No one would ever suggest that there aren’t surprises and busts, injuries, etc. But that hardly shoots down an entire system like James’. Every team in baseball now uses stats and projections from James and his followers. A projection is not a be all end all but it’s part of the analysis .
Twin loves stats!
At least the projections provide, or should provide, some decent discussion. We’re all going to do what we always do anyway- trash what we don’t agree with and laud what we do agree with. Here, I help: I think he’s FOS on Zito, Zits wins AT LEAST three..
A big spring doesn’t get you much with this team. Eugenio looked like Cesar Cedeno about 3 years ago…
And as you’re well aware of, same goes for the ponies…Euroears worked 56 and 3 in the morning then finished dead last in the BC Sprint. Some fool here had the unmitigated gall to make that horse his best bet of the day.
Things haven’t changed in your absence. Good to see ya back…
Well, Belt’s numbers surely are a little more than optimistic than warranted . . .
And for you calling the Pagan trade a downgrade, those James numbers surely outshine the production we got from Torres (and the others) last year. That, and $5.00 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I like the trade, but you spend 2 days railing against it. Now the numbers bear out what most here think. So, you are doing the same shit you accuse everyone else of.
I guess we have a 5th starter by committee? Or Bubbles goes 4.2 and has 30 NDs next year . . .
No, they are only bear out that he may be a slight offensive upgrade . And the projection for Torres is 392 AB .255 BA 8 HR 32 RBI .336 OBP .737 OBP. How many ABs each will get is certainly the least reliable of any projection system. The numbers that the player can control himself are BA, OPB, OPS. Pagan : .278 .335 .734
Torres .255 .336 .737
So we get a very minor offensive upgrade for a massive defensive downgrade…just as last year’s figures from both Baseball Reference and FanGraphs bear out, Torres was more valuable to his team last year, as well..
And Chuckie is suddenly a fan of projections because he thinks ( incorrectly, of course) that James’ projections bear out that Pagan is the better player.
Twin says no to Pagan! News at Eleven…..
Well, just like you blithley blow it off when it suits you.
It’s a 2 way street, skippy.
Not a big fan of Pagan, but in 2010 he was 2nd in the league in defensive WAR, at least as measured by BR. I think this again suggests the unreliability of advanced defensive metrics, and is less an indication that Pagan was great in the OF one year, and totally sucked the next. I’ll stick to OPS. And I’d just as soon still see Torres in a Giants uni.
10 errors for an outfielder can’t just be dismissed.
No, but he had more typical OF error totals the previous two years. Unless you believe that at age 29 he suddenly lost some ability to field hits or throw to bases, or these are endemic weaknesses in his game that have just lately been revealed, it stands to reason that the 10 errors are probably an outlier.
Or the prevalent theory that he quit.
Btw, as referred to yesterday, besides achilles problems ( even laymen can figger out that achilles problems aren’t a real good thing for a guy whose speed a major asset), Andres had problem with his ADD meds. I finally found some confirmination of that, from Baggs last year:
“When the Giants put Torres on the disabled list in Florida two weeks ago, the listed reason was a contusion on his calf. It’s true, Torres couldn’t run for two days after fouling a ball off his leg. But in no way was it a two-week injury.
Left unsaid: The Giants were even more concerned about Torres’ mental health. As you know, he’s been very public about his battle with ADHD, and how he’s overcome many of its symptoms through awareness and medication.
But from what I understand, medication isn’t a simple fix. Your body can get used to one drug, and it begins to lose efficacy. So you go through a process of trying another drug, or changing the dosage, or using one in conjuction with another. Torres didn’t have that problem last season. It’s been a big part of his struggles this season. For a long stretch this summer, he wasn’t able to sleep at night.
Torres has been forced to make constant adjustments at the plate, as all hitters must do. But that isn’t all. He’s had to make constant adjustments with his medical condition, too. That cannot be easy when you are performing in front of 40,000 people. And don’t forget, Torres is the subject of his own documentary film, in addition to the part he played in the Showtime series. That’s a lot of pressure.”
I expect him to have a nice year in NY.
I hope Torres does bounce back. More power to him. Same with Jonathan Sanchez. Yes, i wanted them gone, but I think a change of scenery can do a world of good for some folks.
As far as that article goes, nowhere does it say that TORRES struggled with his medication. It says some people struggle with the meds, he had problems sleeping, and he missed time with a contusion. Baggs, and you, are making a leap here to suggest that’s why he missed time.
You are totally full of shit.I could spend the rest of the day finding references to it, and I might just do that.Just one from InsideBayArea:
“Torres, who appeared overwhelmed for long stretches while struggling to control his attention-deficit disorder with medication.”
The team often referred to it as “mental problems”, but that he was having problems with the medication is clear. And it’s clear from th article that he was having problems with it. Only a dunce wouldn’t see that.
No kidding. So is that article.
Unless there’s more to the article that confirms any of this.
Well, Torres is gone, root for him if you want to (i don’t typically *root* for former Giants but I do follow them closely to see if we made a mistake in letting them go). I personally think next year is going to be rough for him. The dude puts so much pressure on himself and if he slips into a funk he’s going to get booed like he never heard it in SF. Unless you think New York fans are the mild mannered, understanding-excuse making type. It’s probably one of the last fan bases in the league that’s going to be sympathetic to an emotional condition that’s treated with medication….
We’re completely fucked at SS. They should just step up and make a play for Hanley. Sabean has a lot of work to do. I like the Pagan deal, lukewarm on the Melky trade and I don’t think this is a playoff team at the moment. And does anyone really think Buster is going to hobble in, catch 145 games, and go 25/90/.300?
Crawford and Belt haven’t shown me a goddamn thing.
I’ve always liked Burriss as a guy who knew how to play the game, he struck me as manager material right away. Unfortunately, he hits nearly as poorly as Crawford does with less pop, and doesn’t play SS well. I think we’ll see a lot of Font after a while.
Loo demands action!
Well, I’m not going to discuss the article by Baggs with anyone so dense as to not understand it’s it’s about the struggles with his meds last year. As to Torres and Mets’ fans, from dozens and dozens and dozens of reports, he’ll certainly have have plenty of leeway following Pagan’s act last year..
His meds could easily have been the problem last year. Most people take adderall in the am since that’s when their day starts. Torres’ day doesn’t usually start till the night. With an increase in his dose, that could easily disrupt his sleep.
Loo– give Hanley a rest. He had a shit yr last yr (and was sucking all year) and hes been in a consistent slide since his 30/30 yr. He’s not worth nearly what you’d have to pay to get him.
Met fans are fairly civilized these days. Like most people in the stands, they’re much more interested in staring at their fuckin’ I-phones.
Loo disses I-phones!
Grow up, clown. What you ORIGINALLY posted had very little facts and a lot of conjecture.
Poor Mikie. Someone doubted his veracity. When I posted my reference to something you questioned, did I react like a bitchy little 5 year old girl? No. I posted the reference.
You of course have to go the 3rd grade route. Mike is a motherfucking cock sucking 2-balled bitch. Every time I see yer posts, my 2 balls itch . . .
Gee, I feel better now.
What next? The rubber/glue defense?
There ya go, talk to me like your’re at home, it wil help you.
No sense is crying about the past and the future ……that’s iffy too!
Beane f- with the G’s, trading Trevor Cahill to the Dbacks.
In the past, with a few exceptions, once a guy left the Giants, I didn’t give a crap about him. But none of those guys had ever helped bring a championship. This year I actually cared about Uribe and Renteria.
It was kind of entertaining listening to Vin Scully try to broadcast Uribe at-bats. Scully had no idea what to make of Uribe. The Giants were the perfect team for Uribe. The Giants completely understood that he could have 3 horrible at-bats in a row, and then win the game for you with a big homerun in the 8th or 9th inning. The Dodgers started the season batting Uribe SECOND in the lineup, I think. All of us knew that was doomed, and Uribe’s season went downhill from there.
I always follow the guys after they leave. Actually, I can’t recall many who have touched the fans as much as Torres has. Most of it was because he was the unquestioned heart and soul of the championship team, but much was because he was just one of those rare individuals who touched all who knew him or of him. His battle with ADHD has been well documented and he’s helped perhaps thousands with his public candor. That we didn’t hear more about his difficulties with the adderall last year would undoubledly be because he didn’t want appear to make excuses.
As short as his stay was, he was not a good Giant, he was a great Giant— oh, one more thing, and a better *player* than his replacement
This could be a good Room B topic, Twin.
Might help your grades.
I’m not sure that Torres is THAT beloved by Giants fans. He’ll be remembered as a key player on the 2010 team, but no more beloved than, say, Cody Ross, or several other guys. A bunch of guys had magical seasons, and it all came together.
My two biggest memories of Torres from that season are his bases-clearing double in the ninth off Sherril, after Broxton was removed in the “Donny Two-Trips” game; and his big hit against the Phils, that Victorino ended up dropping at the wall in the playoffs. Torres hit that, right? I think I’m remembering that correctly.
You must have been in a cave for the couple days, Z.
Just one of tghe many tributes, I’ll be sure post them . You can do the Cody Ross ones. From Baggs:
“Bochy spoke with Torres this morning, and as you might imagine, Andres the Giant broke down crying.
“What a joy he was to be around,” Bochy said. “He was one of those guys who never had a bad day. He always enjoys being around people and he’s so thankful for everything that’s happened to him in his career.
“He got emotional. He was very thankful. At first, he was fine, then … he couldn’t talk anymore.”
It’s hard not to smile when you think of Torres with his tree-trunk bat and his choppy little sprinter’s arms. Any time a teammate hit a home run, Torres swore it was a called shot — including Renteria’s series-winning drive in Game 6.
I’ve always believed the players who resonate with fans are the ones who simply appreciate what they have and what they get to do for a living. They never button up a jersey without a little bit of lightness in their chest. I’m not sure I’ve ever covered a player who was more grateful, more genuine than Andres the Giant.
They’ll love him in New York.
Even if Andres the Met doesn’t have the same ring to it.”
No Giant was more beloved by the fans, and he was an inspiration to his teammates as well, as evidenced by the WillieMac Award. Here’s a photograpic tribute, titled, appropriately
” Andres Torres was a great Giant”
http://manginphotography.net/2011/12/andres-torres-was-a-great-giant/
There’s no reason not to discuss a great Giant here.
Pass the vomit bag:
http://tinyurl.com/6t8axo3
I’m not really sweatin’ the D-backs getting Cahill. I was hoping they would have had to give up Bauer or the other dude but whatever. Cahill’s 2011 was more representative of his skill set than his 2010. Plus, I don’t think his pitches will translate that well to the NL. But whatever, we’ll see……
My two immediate memories of Torres (I quizzed myself right after I read Zumie’s post) were 1) the lead off bomb he hit against Strasburg and 2)…..this isn’t a *single* memory but I would say he hit some of the loudest, hardest doubles I can remember a player hitting consistently, at least in 2010……….
Turn down the volume, he’s left the room.
No one save perhaps Pablo is more fun to watch going 1st to 3rd
Walter Hudson was a hoot…
You mean this guy?
Of course!
Just curious if the Giants brass felt Torres played his best baseball during day games.With the schedule out they only have 34 day games at home.Maybe that factored in there move.On the sly side they pulled the rug out on the Mets cause they have only 27 day games.If they really wanted to help out Torres , could have worked out a trade with the Cubs.who have 44 home day games.
That was an interesting thought- seriously- but he hit his worst in day games, .198. The peripherals were no better. Which makes sense if he was having trouble sleeping.
Thanks Twin…Didnt look up Torres splits Day/Night ratio but figured for sure you would have them.
I’ll take the Alley Cat over the Hokey Pokey any day of the week.
Thoughts?
Loo..You put your right hand in.
You put your right hand out.
You put your right hand in
And you shake it all about.
You do the Hokey Pokey
and you turn yourself around.
Thats what its all about.
I remember most Kat’s “doomy” posts but totally polly predictions. That’s not a criticism, I just thought it was funny, in a nice way.
Twin….I live and breath Giants baseball.Yeah every guy/gal on Flavs site which is by far my favorite site (Thanks Craig)feel the same way.Yeah some have called me a doomer, which i never personally thought i am,but to each their own.Doesnt affect one iota.And hell i even gave up one of your top computers when i won The World Series prediction and gave itto Blade.AND I did well in others,soi think i know my shit.Btw what you did with ALL Your Computer drawings and other prizes wasreally remarkable and never went unnoitced by me and im sure others.And Flappers/Flapperetts if my spelling sucks from timeto time its cause im using only a smartphone now and it sucks for a one finger guy who,s drinking 3finger Tequilla.
Are these beloved Torres memories accurate? (in a Proustian sense they are, no matter the “facts”): 1) sliding into 2B [or was it in OF?] the first day back in 2010 after his appendectomy 2) sliding into first base on a bunt or squibbler in the 8th or 9th against Phil. in the clinching game of the 2010 NLDS. And 2a) Andres the Giant [love that nickname] working out in Puerto Rico in that documentary movie or maybe it was Showtime, anyway, WORKING OUT BY HEAVING FECKIN CINDERBLOCKS WHILE RUNNING UP A HILL. Love the guy and wish him well.
Hey, am I crazy or what: why not a whisper of Mark DeRosa? He was great in September for us, plays lots of positions, could possibly be signed to an inexpensive 1 yr contract?? how quick they forget?!
plus he has that hot wife
Pawlie…Time to move on from the non production players,Rowand,Tejada,Cabera,Derosa ,Torres last year Hopefully Whitey.
But I would add DeRosas wife as a Bat Girl.
Right on both counts, Pawlie…
Torres was great, agreed he was indeed a Great Giant. Not sure there’s anyone on the team now who will be able to replace his inspired play and the spark he provided, not to mention just being a great guy to have around. I’m guessing Sabean et al were just betting that Pagan is more likely to have a turnaround year than Torres is. Remains to be seen.
Nice posts from Kat, Pawlie, and Paul. And I certainly remember that you gave your prize away, Kat. Blade seems to have enjoyed it, we both thank you.
Goodnight all, I’ll work on pretending that I like the Torres trade..
Nighty Nite Twin….I,ll send Chuckles over to tuck you in .
. . . with a nail gun . . .
Damn Alleykat . . . I guess I am losing my mind via early onset of dementia and/or fugue moments brought on by not wearing my football helmet when I was a young lad in High School. Specifically, I forgot that you were the one that actually won the pc and allowed me to receive it . . . I know I thanked you back then, but I tip my hat to you again (especially since it has turned out to be quite an excellent and reliable assembly of silicon artificial intelligence. Thank you!
Torres had a great one year as a Giant. He will certainly be remembered as a big part of that WS team.
But, one season doesn’t qualify you as a GREAT Giant. Just doesn’t. That denigrates those who were great, who spent much more time and gave much more to the organization….
Yeah,Torres will never get a plaque like Johnnie LeMaster did . . .
BTW, Cleveland was said to be ‘mildly interested’ in DeRosa according to MLBTR . . .
LMFAO CHUCK…With a nail gun.Like when Largo.s henchman got nailed by that Speargun by Bond and he turns to his hot babe and says guess he got the point.
nice one snarkk. both are true. he was a great giant for one year. magical, yes. but does that make him a great giant? I have to say, in my heart he is. but no statue for andres.
Agree Snarrk…Yeah I give Torres his just dues.He put up fantastic numbers in 2010, and know doubt was a key reason we won.it all,but his overall career bouncing up and down and from team to team in the minors should have convinced most people he wad just a1yr wonder and not A Giant LEGEND.
Well, when you’re rating anything as “great” — movies, restaurants, actors, bands — there are many factors that go into it. For a Great Giant, I can certainly understand longevity as one factor, which obviously Torres didn’t have. But he did “give more” to the organization in that one good year than many others in years gone by. Doubt the team would’ve won the World Series without him. In that regard… I do consider him a great Giant. Ok, maybe a small “g”, not capitalized…. 🙂
I also just read the story on the Chron website (Food & Wine ranking) about the best bars in SF. I wouldn’t have even considered any of those in a top 100. We all have our own definitions of best and great…
What’s the difference between a bartender and a mixologist? 20 minutes.
It’s just like ethnic cuisine. That’s a pejorative in my book. Give me the overpriced, bastardized gringo version every time.
Really the best Award i could give Andres would be his own special dish at Orlando Cepeda’s food stand
“No Giant was more beloved by the fans”
Really? OK, maybe it’s just me. I didn’t feel any great emotional attachment to him. I would have needed more years of positive production. I needed more time.
Ah, Zumie is commitment-phobic…. 🙂
Oh, I’m sure I’m pretty typical of a lot of fans of pro sports. These things don’t always have rhyme and reason. I don’t have much emotion about Willie Mays, but Bobby Bonds…..that was the dude!
I like torres as a giant and as a personality. I was disappointed he didn’t play better for a second season and I think the trade was the right thing for the team. hustle by example. that was our torres.
There are less than 10 “great” SF Giants. Maybe closer to 5 than 10…
1. Willie
2. Willie
3. Orlando
4. Juan
5. Barry
Off the top of my head Mays, McCovey, Marichal, and Barry are the only absolutely indisputable ones.
I would definitely put Cepeda, Perry and Kent on that list.
Bobby Bonds, the Clarks, Schmidt, Timmy, etc. are all debatable.
A lot of “good” Giants!
Snarkk’s Post Of The Day succinctly nails it, “Torres had a great one year as a Giant. He will certainly be remembered as a big part of that WS team. But, one season doesn’t qualify you as a GREAT Giant. Just doesn’t. That denigrates those who were great, who spent much more time and gave much more to the organization . . . ”
I have no problem with Loo’s list either. Couple that with names (in an earlier era) such as Christy Mathewson, Bill Terry, Mel Ott, and Casey Stengel, are just a sample of the many players who honed their skills under John John McGraw.
Torres is good, but he isn’t “Great.” Moreover, the 2010 SF Giants World Series Team meets the definition of Aristotle’s quote, “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.”
Hey Blade…Glad your enjoying your PC on steriods.Hey i think i remember once you saying you have family in Sunnyvale.I live up the road in San Carlos.Next time you get down this way ,lets hook up for a few cold ones at the Goose are wherever and shoot the breeze about the Giants!!!
Longevity has nothing to do with it. Andres was a GREAT Giant. I’ll deal with it in “B”. POTD? That’s a disgrace, as is Snarkk, who trashed Torres even in 2010.
Lots of Studs wore the orange and black……
Mays will ALWAYS be.#1 Then the rest of the M&M.boys Marichal,McCovey,Mattewson.Toss in Barry,Ott.Terry,Hubbell,Cepeda,Kent,
Uribe was just as important to the 2010 club in my mind with his leadership and timely hits while picking up the slack at ss but it doesn’t make him great. I don’t get the argument I guess. The 2010 club was the greatest in SF history because they were the last ones standing at the end bringing home the “ship”.
I recall seeing Torres before he became a regular blast at PH bomb out to dead CF while flying around the bags, and make great catches in RF along foul line. That kind of range cannot be duplicated by anyone on Giants roster, and I wouldn’t have traded him for that reason alone. HIs physical problems go back to 2010, and 2011 he never got rolling offensively from either side of the plate. If there is medication to help you hit a curveball, I’m not aware of it.
As to Alderson getting rid of the cancers, I’d have gladly took two of them, Reyes and Beltran, off his hands. A lot of very good players are selfish, and there have been rumblings about wade boggs and tony gwynn protecting avg at all costs, and joe morgan telling guys on first base ahead of him not to run and mess up the hole on right side. And these are the HOF guys.
Throughout baseball are countless guys who seem like total dickheads, unless they are on your team. I’d put will clark in that category.
Maybe you should try to understand ADD before you make ignorant statements about medications.
Bullshit…it’s got zero to do with being able to hit a breaking ball. If Torres was physically and mentally unable to play and concentrate on what he was doing, then he shouldn’t have played at all, because he wasn’t going to help the team.. You want to explain away an entire season due to lack of medication? I don’t buy it….his downturn started end of 2010.
It’s the same argument as Bonds—millions of guys take steroids, but none of them can hit a baseball like he could. torres could not hit a baseball.
In the category of great Giants from another era, I would include one of my favorite baseball names of all time: Frankie Frisch.
Zumie….Cant forget catcher John Bocabella.He was thr only highlight on a real crappy Altobelli 79 team.He would come up to PH and the fans and my buddies would go crazy when the PA screamed out his name now battimg John Bocabelllllllllllla.
The phrase “great Giant” means different things to different people. When Krukow and Kuip say it, they mean any player they like personally. So, Johnny Lemaster is a great Giant in their eyes.
Was Robby Thompson a great Giant? I still remember when he was photographed in the San Francisco Chronicle wearing a fictitious Tampa Bay Giants cap when the Giants were strongly rumored to be moving there. That kind of soured me on him.
Shit,Mike. Hyperbole at its best. No Giant was more beloved by the fans than Torres?
Because you say so? Since you represent every fan in the world, I guess you’re right.
What a fucking maroon. So you’re the arbiter of fandom? I suppose I can’t like Will Clark because you think he’s racist? Your ego is astounding, pal.
Of course you can like Clark, and of course he’s a racist, that was documented long ago. That’s not why you like him, is it?
Chuck is refilling his Nail Gun for a extended shootout with Twin
Nail gun? He’s lucky I still don’t work as an occupational safety and health director – we always enforced Hilti-Guns being under lock and key, and only licensed operators utilizing them. Ha.
Character means something too- which is why a Will Clark or a Kent or a Bonds will never be “great” Giants anymore than Pete Rose will ever be a great Red. To be a “great” Giant also means to be a great man. Obviously, most here have lower standards on what “great” means. Bonds was a great ballplayer, Torres was a great Giant, whether he played here for a day or decade…
Does being a “great” Blue Jay also mean being a great man? Or a great bird?
I wish I cared about the Willie Mac award, but I don’t. Torres put up some nice numbers over 2 years, and, like Matt Cain, there’s a possibility he may not vote Republican. Pretty cool for a wealthy ballplayer.
Never have there been comments like this on Baggs’ blog, Tributes to a GREAT GIANT and an inspirational man:
Great Giant. Thanks for everything, Andres…
Thank you, Andres. I will always remember you as inspiring, humble, and a wonderful human being. Thank you for helping this 57 year old Giants fan experience his first world series victory…
I will miss you Andres. You were a great Giant with a huge heart and will always be someone I cheer for, no matter the team. Best wishes to you in NY!!…
This news of him getting traded is very sad for me even has me crying to think he wont be in the giants anymore hes my idol, my inspiration and my motivation to never give up. I wish him the best and i will always be his fan!!..
Great giant … will miss him patrolling CF..
I think I just cried. I love you Andres. I will miss you….
Love you andres !! you will always be a great Giant…Best of luck…and thanks for everything …
Andres Torres is one of the most inspirational athletes we’ll ever know. ADHD is a very difficult disability to overcome and perform well enough to play pro baseball. Can you imagine having a hard time focusing your brain and still having to hit a baseball traveling 95 mph? Or catching one on the full run in the outfield? Every day Torres plays in a professional baseball game is a terrific accomplishment. I will cheer for him wherever and whenever he plays….
Yeah, absolutely nothing bad to say about this guy.Players come and go, but champions remain forever.Thanks for everything Andres….
http://www.metsblog.com/2011/12/08/giants-fans-react-to-losing-torres-who-will-miss-sf/
Obviously you missed Baggs’ blog the day they sold Von Joshua to the Brewers….
Ah, I remember it well!
“A GREAT dickhead!”
” Fucktard extraordinaire!”
Pete Rose is a scumbag and a criminal who I’ve despised for about half a century. But I still consider him the greatest Red of all time.
—
I’ll be pulling for Torres as a Met…
He was a great ballplayer, but never a great Red- he was a disgrace to the Reds.
Here’s part of being a great Giant, being a great Giant is being not just a fine ballplayer, it’s being an inspiration and being a credit to the organization. Andres will always be a GREAT GIANT:
Alleykat, I’m heading out that way next Thursday, but will only be in town for 5 days (through Tuesday) . . . Moreover, the day after I arrive, my parents and I will be driving to Los Osos, near Santa Barbara, for our extended family Christmas get-together. More times than not, I try to make this annual event vs. Christmas, since I get to see the entire family.
So, give me a “rain check” due sometime in April, when my parents have me house and dog sitting for 2.5 weeks, while they are in Europe and the Mediterranean on a cruise. I owe Flav a rain check to – so hopefully he can make it, as well as anyone else who wants to join us. I forgot what Flav called the last Flap summit meeting, but I understand they had a blast. By the by, my cuz Greg, usually scores me tickets for 2-3 Giants games, as well as a minor league game in San Jose – so that would be an alternative meeting place too. So far, I have only met one Flapster, ChiPower (Chuck) . . . Pawlie doesn’t count, since that was Skype . . . cheap SOB keeps saying that he is coming to Colorado, but hasn’t followed through yet. 😉
Seeing the entire family is a good thing?
On what planet?
YO!
No worries Blade…..Enjoy your”Chevy Chase Christmas”with your family and relatives.Give my regards to “Uncle Eddie”.
Ironically, we do a “joke” gift exchange (sometimes called “yankee” or “white elephant” exchange), where we have a price limit of approx. 20-25 dollars. Basically, we decide how many times a gift can be stolen during the game. Three times and then retired is average, otherwise the game will never end. Actually, it’s a lot of fun. Younger kids in our family (5-8 years old) have cried during the game because their gift was taken (that they liked a lot) . . . 😉
duly noted
Who loves ya?
A flap-fest at a sj giants game might be pretty cool. Cheap beer and the let you buy more than 2 at a time (or at least they used to). might be fun to bring the kiddies. I know my boys would love to come.
something to ponder during the winter days.
Well, there’s a link to a list of those who I consider the great Giants on the 2010 team. Obviously, there is an extremely limited definition here of what “great” might mean. Snarrk thinks that a man and player like Torres denigrates what it means to be great. I expect that from him but shame on those who have agreed with his always toxic POV. I’ll not discuss this any more on this page, feel free to pipe in on “B”. I can hardly wait for the remarks on Bengie, a great Giant as well ( and another player that Snarkk has assailed)…
Keep in mind as you fall into the Snarrk quagmire, that this is a guy who objected to HOFer Monte Irvin having his number retired.
“…the Snarrk quagmire….” Is that like quicksand?
You can be a great person but not a great player. If they put up statues for great persons, there would be a whole lot of statues. As for the New York Giants, I would just forget them as Giants of another time and another place. Mel Ott hitting those HRS at the Stick, no way! Anyway anything before 47 is suspect as a whole race people were excluded. Ty Cobb was hardly a good human by anyone’s standards but he was a great player.
I guess that’s where I part ways with most of you- being a great player does not make one a great Giant, or Red, or Tiger. It cannot said anymore succintly than this this: Bonds was a great ball player, but a terrible Giant. Andres and “Big Titty” are great Giants.
Ok, I broke my promise, but check out “B” and “C” if you’d care to make an attempt at understanding why a guy who underperformed here for two years is nevertheless a great Giant..