Grade School Mentality
Baseball players are brain dead lemmings when it comes to responding to perceived *disrespect*. If you glance at your homerun for a second too long you’re likely to get hit in the ribs in your next at bat. There are all sorts of little traditions you have to honor and you’re not allowed to violate any of them, even by accident, or you’re subjected to being hit with a 95 mph heater. It’s all 100% stupid. I think most *retaliation pitches* are not justified but I don’t have a problem with it under a very specific circumstance: 1) clear and obvious intent to hit one of your star players with a pitch that could possibly cause injury.
Last night, I will admit, Otero’s pitch that hit Votto *looked* bad if all you look at is the pitch. But unless there was something going on in-game that we didn’t see or hear about, there is no reasonable way you could draw a line from Otero to intent to hitting Votto. Simply put, there was no antecedent that preceded Otero throwing at Votto……
LeClure’s pitch was an obvious message pitch and it had a significantly greater chance of causing injury than Otero’s—it just missed Buster’s knee. Not a guarantee to cause an injury but more likely to cause one than just getting hit on the side of the hip (where Votto got hit).
If you saw Dusty in the tv shot after LeClure’s pitch he let out a hard, long spit that was basically saying “that’s right, it’s on, fuck you for hitting Votto.” What a dumbass……
Buster answered by shaking his head a few times, milling around the box as both benches got warned and then promptly depositing an opp-o HR into the seats in right center. A better “fuck you” than Dusty’s, to be sure…….
I’m sure the Reds weren’t happy that Votto got hit but their response seemed to be a “you hit us, we hit you” mentality regardless of whether there was any intent of not. And that’s a pretty stupid, juvenile approach to anything in life. I do believe LeClure was trying to hit Buster somewhere in the leg area and he was agile enough to not get hit. If you are simply sending a *message* with a behind-the-player pitch it’s usually *higher and wider* not a few inches from the knee.
Still, if anyone deserves to get plunked today it’s Votto. I wouldn’t judge the Giants for retaliating for that pitch near Buster’s knee. That’s not really the Giants-way, they don’t seem to get too caught up in displaying 12 year old behavior, but they at least have a reason to respond, in my opinion, based off the criteria I used above.
The reason not to do it is obvious: If Votto gets hit today there’s a good chance that the pitcher who throws that pitch will get days. Depending on the brawl afterwards, many players could get days, including Bochy. And do we really need to deal with that right now? No. Besides, Buster laid out the best *punk job* you could land on a pitcher—he went opp-o on him in the very same at bat that LeClure tried to hit him. It was perfect…….
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
otero had zero command, left everything in the middle of the plate after crawford couldn’t turn the DP, and got hammered. Reds won a laugher, move on. You have to pitch inside to set up going away, better hitters are going to get that all the time, it’s part of baseball. Posey got the best revenge, showing reds what he can do.
No need to go pascual perez here.
Agree…no need to prolong this. Giddy up and play the game.
Question – I may have missed something…in Bagg’s piece on Otero/Posey situation it says “The Giants haven’t settled on a starter for Friday, Bochy said. They still might go with a bullpen game.” Is this because by playing two on Monday Vogelsong would be on short rest? I am guessing that is the reason, as I have not heard anything about an issue with Vogey (health-wise).
Screw the ‘throwing at the player’ retaliation.. Since last year, the Reds have owned the Giants and it would please me more if the Giants put up a big crooked number today in the 1st and make Dusty swallow his toothpick!
bloggers on pav site mentioned cain scowling at votto after an earlier BB, for him stalling btw pitches and stepping in/out the box. didn’t see it but I hate guys like that…carlos pena did it all the time for the cubs last year.
I didn’t see the game last night, so I have no idea how this went down. Regardless, I think all concerned (especially the Giants) were lucky that Chapman’s 100 MPH plus heater wasn’t in the equation. 🙂
By the by, I saw where Ted’s father had a stroke . . . Good thoughts and prayers sent your way Ted.
Thanks Blade. The prognosis is good but it’s still a bummer visiting him right now. But thanks
I mentioned yesterday how “on paper” the game sure looked to favor the Giants. Cain with 18 shut-out innings in his previous two starts was cruising. Latos had scuffled badly in all of his starts, and the Giants lumber had taken advantage of some weak pitching in NY. It all looked ripe for a Giant win, but then, those are usually the games that bite you in the ass.
Similar today…Arroyo has been throwing great…and regardless of how well Zito has pitched, on the surface you would say advantage Cincy. Hope the G-men prove that wrong and open up a can of whoop-ass on the Reds.
Oh, and my bad on my first post…it would be Timmy who would be on short rest (he is the TDB for Friday…Vogelsong pitches tomorrow)…
Yeah, the “paper” was only good to wipe someone’s ass. Hopefully, we frame the paper today. I know, I know . . . A lousy metaphor. I picked up Zito in his last start (Flap league), but going against Cincy in that bandbox gives me pause and I would have to be delusional to do so this time around. Like you said Chi, hopefully he gives them 6-7 innings, where at least it doesn’t seem like the Giants are looking at the score from the wrong end of a telescope.
not enough was made of Zito last start—it was not good and a sign of something bad to come today. He walked more than he struck out and though he only gave up 2 runs I think that was a little lucky since they were solo bombs. He only went 5–actually a fairly typical Zito start….
As far as pitching Tim on short rest- it is not going to happn, Bochy wouldn’t consider it…
If a piycher does come up for the start, it’s not likely to be a “fresh faced kid”, as someone mentioned. We don’t have those, at least none remotely close to being ready for even a one time effort. It would probably one of the not so fresh faced Fresno strters- Hacker, Blackley, or Kown. I’ve guessed it would Hacker. He’d be on his normal rest…
I’ve talked about this retaliation bullshit before. The incident should be considered over. If that makes Dusty feel he “won”, fine. He can die with the most toys. Just win the next two…
It’s too bad he won’t. I’ve previously pointed to a pretty thorough study by the Baseball Prospectus folks that concludes that there is no benefit to the 5 man rotation either in terms of performance or career longevity. Like the closer role, it is an “evolution” that doesn’t seem to be rooted in any significant competitive advantage.
Well, I think I’m just saying Bochy is unlikely to change all that. And doing it with a guy who is struggling already wouldn’t seem to make a lot of sense. Maybe I’ll take a look at some numbers later. In the meantime, I wouldn’t put money on Tim for Friday.
I know — I was lamenting the fact that even considering it is simply out of the question.
I opted out of the prerecorded replay last night and missed the hit batsmen drama but from what I have read Bochy’s post game comments said it best. Ortero is a young guy trying to make his way as a pro. No way he just decided to plunk Votto. Sounds like bush league stuff all around. Well, except for Posey going yard and then saying whatever in his postgame coments. The more I see of Posey the more I like his old school mentality.
Forget the obvious who threw what to whom and other schoolboy stuff. The fact remains that the Giants have never played well in Cincy. I hope they can suck it up and kick some butt before leaving town.
“Baseball players are brain dead lemmings when it comes to”…..we could add to that list today, if y’all want to.
I’ll add…..”stupid celebrations after walk-off wins, where the hero gets beaten up by his own team.” After Melky’s walk-off hit the other day, he got knocked over in a moving pile.
The guy that threw the perfect game the other day got driven to his knees by the pile.
It’s all stupid and dangerous.
Posey says that’s why he always stands on the side lines during those
Ask the guy (Morales) who plays for the Angels about celebrations. Idiot broke his ankle after jumping up in the air after hitting a home run and . . . umm, landed wrong. Ha.
And Pujols still has not hit a HR.
Nip, that contract was not a smart move by the owner (and I love that guy . . . and for more than him lowering the prices of beer when he bought the team). Couple that mistake with Vernon Wells, Tori Hunter, and Bobby Abreu playing the outfield, with their phenom, Trout, still dying on the vine in Triple A, nothing they do makes sense to me. If I am the owner. I send Wells to the Pirates, Hunter back to the Twins, release Abreu and bring up Trout immediately.
I don’t get where Tori Hunter was a mistake, Steve. In 4 years before this one he’s been a consitent 20-85 guy with .800+ OPS. He slipped a tad last year, but zero way that was a bad signing. That was the same year we got Rowand. As bloggers like to say: ‘Nuff said.
Frankly, yeah – that’s a bit unfair to Hunter and I shouldn’t have included him. They have a fairly good center fielder right now, Bouros, who has to share time out there and as you pointed out, Hunter really isn’t showing his age yet. My bad.
My point however, is that they need to get rid of the other dinosaurs (Abreu and Wells). Trout has accomplished everything in the minors and he is READY. They also have a problem trying to find a position for Trombo – he is an absolute disaster at 3rd base and there is no room at first with Pujols or DH with Morales. Not certain he can play the outfield, but the bottom line is that they need to get rid of Wells and Abreu, what with them floundering in last place right now. This is not what the owner expected when he gave Pujols that humongous contract.
Cespedes of the As stood and admired his first major league dinger this year simply because he didn’t know it was considered crass. He said in Cuba *everyone* does it. Fortunately there was no retaliation
A player being crass? Tsk…tsk…
Just watched the whole AB, since I checked out at 8-0 last night. Anyone notice Buster shoot a glance to LeCure as he was rounding the bases? Nice touch. And with the Giants down only 3-0 with 2 outs in the 7th, I doubt the last thing Otero wanted to do was hit Votto and load the bases. Just another reason why I’m glad Bochy is in our dugout and Baker isn’t.
Giants once won 103 games with Baker.
And they won the World Series with Bochy.
Back to the whole pitching on short rest thing…I get it James about 5 man rotations, etc., but agree with Twin, no way in hell Bochy considers sending Timmy out there. If Huff is not back, then I could see them pulling someone up for one game to eat some innings. On the flip-side, I would not be surprised if they went “by committee” (just hate to use up a chunk of the bullpen for a spot start).
That they wont do (give the bullpen each a third of a game to pitch). More likely to give someone in the bullpen a spot start, but not going to throw the bullpen out of whack by overextending each of them.
Especially if they have to use the pen early today, if Zito reverts to form and only goes 2-3 innings.
I think they will have to go with a AAA guy. Twin mentioned Hacker and Blakley. Another poss would be Burres, who threw a 1 hit shutout Sat.
Yeah, it’s just not a great situation….even with the early start tomorrow…they’ll get home late and have to turn it around and play Friday. No rest for the weary…Bochy has been good about how he uses his pen…no reason to think he won’t continue to do so…
Day off after the Dago series…then 6 more at home and 3 on the road before the next off day.
Schulman: Giants bring up Joaquin Arias to (temporarily) replace Huff
What’s going on with Huff? I have the TV on in the background and Gary “a joke a minute” Radnich and some other bozo (apologies to our Bozo) are waxing poetic about Huff.
haven’t heard anything specific … just the general “personal matter/family emergency”
Radnich is such a total dimwit. How he gets paid I can’t fathom. how kate scott stands him I don’t know either. Her eyeballs must be sore from all the rolling they do. And what a shame she’s playing for the other team.
It must be a very private matter.
Doubt that it’s temporary for Arias- should spell the end for Theriot if not Huff himself.
Agree Twin…Theriot. can take his Valley fever to another team.
He can join his best bud, Fontenot in the New Orleans beer league he’s playing in.
Only word on Huff was Bochy comment that “Huff’s personal issue is absolutely legitimate,” and also saying he left a voicemail for Huff and that they have exchanged texts. It’s not like they don’t have options for first base. Agree with Twin…may be the end (for Theriot and Huff).
Dateline Milwaukee . . . Ishi went yard earlier today.
He hadn’t played much- 0 for 7 start with 4 K’s. Since he’s been 4 for 11 2 HR 5 RBI. Just about everyone liked Travis here- and talk about jacked around, they treated him like dirt. He was an integral part of the 2010 team as a role player and pinch hitter extaordinaire. This was at an age when he undoubtedly thought he was a starter but took the “demotion” like a pro and worked to change his approach to suit PH duties. A very unsung contribution was when he started during a huge 10 game road trip beginning July 1 in Colorado. H was 12 for 29 on the trip with 11 RBI and a slam against Ubaldo. They went 7-3 on the trip, which started their climb in the standings…
Yes, his entire family was there watching (I think I mentioned this at the time) during that Colorado trip. I saw that game against Ubaldo.
I agree. He was big. And awesome w/ the glove. Ishi! I don’t have firm data to support it, but hasn’t Nate been Ishi’ed over the years?
Chuck will be happy. That’s his guy.
tonight’s lineup:
Pagan CF
Cabrera Lf
Sandoval 3B
Posey 1B
H. Sanchez C
Schierholtz RF
Burriss 2B
Crawford SS
Zito SP
Today’s LU:
Pagan CF
Cabrera LF
Sandoval 3B
Posey 1B
H Sanchez C
Schierholtz RF
Burriss 2B
Crawford SS
Zito
ewisco’ed
I’d like to thank my agent, my lawyer, my wonderful cosmologist and my pet dog, spanky.
No comment.
Anyone seen today’s lineup?
Well I’ve seen today’s. LU and Tonight’s. LU if that helps Chi….
Bruce Jenkins has a good article on SFGATE, after the debacle the Giants had the other night, he recommends getting rid of the DH, it no longer serves its purpose, and go to a 27 man roster. But he also says the AL will never want to get rid of the DH and that in about 2-3 years it will be in the NL. I like the sound of the 27 man roster.
What I liked was all the players on the side.If they move them all between 1st and second that should be enough guys to cover 2nd base for Huff.
Read the article…good read. I HATE the DH. It would absolutely ruin the beauty of the game as played by the NL.
AKat, no amount of players helping Huff would have made up for that gaffe!!
I remember a few years back Alou yanked long-man Brower out of the pen to make a few emergency starts.
I think he did reasonably well not that it means anything…
Well, he’s probably a bit old for that now.
Huff to the 15 day DL with “Anxiety”.
High Anxiety?
Yep…High Anxiety…he is being treated by Mel Brooks and staff.
Aren’t there about 5,000 different pills for that? I always favored the Valium/Colt .45 combo….
Hey that Bud Light Platinum’s got a nice little wallop on an empty stomach.
feckingfeckstickdoucheLatos
Bah… storm. Hope this game gets played.
Schulman: “The tarp is going onto the field at Cincinnati. A big storm is scheduled to push through here soon. The last thing the Giants need is another doubleheader. The pitching already is worn and there is no day off until Monday. Manager Bruce Bochy did suggest a pitcher not currently on the roster will be called up to start Friday’s home game against San Diego, a spot start necessitated by Monday’s doubleheader in New York.”
My Giants schedule doesn’t mention any storm.
It’s fairly inconsiderate when they just drop in unannounced.
Accuweather shows clearing around 7:00 pm, then another little T-storm around 9:00 pm
Weatherproof games: Astros-Brewers, Phillies-Diamondbacks and Angels-Rays
Nationals-Padres actually has a possibility of getting washed out as rain is expected in San Diego about two hours before first pitch (3:35 PT) and should last until the early evening. Cardinals-Cubs could experience an afternoon shower, but the wet weather won’t linger too long. White Sox-A’s is also expected to see some showers in the middle innings, but a rain delay would be brief. Giants-Reds should be able to get the game in before late-evening thunderstorms arrive in Cincinnati.
Pavlovic mentioned that the immediate reaction on Twitter to Huff’s problem was “pretty snarky”, hardly a surprise.
First base for the Giants? Curse of Mike Ivie.
Or, as Rick Monday summed it up when he said, “Mike Ivie is a forty-million-dollar airport with a thirty-dollar control tower.”
My wife has had recurring episodes of anxiety and we’re currently dealing with a recurrence. It is tough and can strike even those who are thought to be “mentally tough”. Hoping the best for Huff. Suffering from anxiety is no fucking joke.
I had a period when I went through panic attacks, I guess that’s the same, or close. Even knowing they will pass is absolutely no help. I was already taking ativan… fortunately they just went away. Too much competition..
Huff just hit the DL with anxiety? Wtf?
Dirt got it right. I wish him the best and hope he returns. Unfortunately there’s a lot of ignorance about anxiety as well as depression out there.
Huff’s going through a divorce, so I’d imagine that can’t be helping his causes any.
That’s sad news. There was a real good article about Huff in last year’s Giants magazine that they sell at the ballpark. His road to the majors was a remarkable story. His dad was involved in some way in law enforcement, and was shot and killed in the line of duty when Huff was a child. His mom saved up money and bought a batting cage for their backyard so that Huff could work out his grief by taking a try at baseball.
Mrs. Snarkk had periodic bouts of depression for 3+ years after the 2nd Snarkette arrived. Therapy and various drugs had up and down results. Finally resolved itself. Very difficult period for the family, to say the least. I thought I was going to blow my stack, it was hard to cope. Now, I’m looking at my health insurance re-up period. All the plans give very limited coverage options for mental health issues, as usual. It’s like they figure if you’ve got some mental/behavioral issues, you’re faking it, or it’s not as real as an appendicitis. Who would fake depression/anxiety issues? I could go on yammering about this country and its bullshit health care system, but it’s not for this forum. I would leave Huff alone and let him explain himself when he’s ready. I assume the MLBPA or teams offer way better alternatives to treat non-sports health issues than are available to most of us…
I hear you snarkk. Been getting the run around all day. It’s really frustrating. Glad to hear things have improved for your better half
Good luck on your end Dirt.
We also had a very good friend who was finally diagnosed bi-polar after a coupla years of flailing, strange behavior off and on. We knew she had something serious going on, but really could do nothing for her until her husband finally helped her get properly diagnosed. At one point, she called up out of the blue and called my wife her “enemy”. She’s on meds now, and is doing pretty well. Mental issues are no friggin joke, for sure. And a lot of them can be traced to chemical/hormonal imbalances in the body — really no different than high blood pressure or diabetes or thyroid problems, etc. So, why society looks askance at these ills compared to others is to me, baffling…
Is Mt. Zito about to blow? Hopefully not or the pitching staff is going to be discombobulated for a week, if he goes early.
Whew! Zeetoe — one inning closer to that 2nd CY.
Pagan!!!!!
PaGONE!
Very nice Angel! Ahem . . . Trap or catch????? Regardless, it fooled the ump. 🙂
that helmet of Panda’s looks very talismanic and ya’ know batters can be very protective of their gear. It will be a sad day if he has to replace that one.
during the advert break they showed the grounds crew working on the mound no sign of the tarp, yet.
the longer this rain goes on the worse my MLB feed gets. Watching votto groound out now.
and the feed is gone
How great is it to have Posey back?
As Great as having Rowand gone Loo.
Aaron will live forever in the hearts of Giants’ fans!
Careful, there. Posts like that could revive the Twin is Nipper rumor of 2009…
Zito pitches well again. Crazy. Our most consistant starter by far…
define ‘by far’
Johnny Rucker……anyone old enough to remember him?
Any relation to Darius Tucker of Hootie and the Blowfish Nip….uhhh never mind.
well, gotta go to work tomorrow, it is the bottom of the 7th, Zito is going out and I said 2am (or a rain delay) was my bedtime.
good game
Go Gigantes!
I think I could start winning an awful lot of money gambling on Zito starts. Just go opposite everything I think will happen. I’m on radio, how “angry” did Zeets look leaving the mound just now?
He was seething.
Slip sliding away…..
I feel bad for Barry.
Zito just had a 6F workout for all his efforts. Best go hose him down. I think he’s really hot now.
Jacques Plante might’ve kept that ball in front of him…
Jesus Alffeldt WTF kind of pitching is that? Your sucking balls out there.
Zito has not earned the right to be pissed about being pulled, at least not demonstrably pissed.
I thought Zito was just pissed at himself. Better pissed than phlegmatic zenlike barry.
Agree St. Good to see someone get pissed off on that team.
Affeldt wasn’t a happy camper in the dugout either . . . Again, he was pissed at himself.
According to Ghead, Affeldt was barking at Hector.
Pretty disgusting performance from the bullpen, supposeldy a strength…. Errors, wild pitches, uggh
Bad luck for #13…
talking about being clueless..coaching tonight my son’s game and a fellow dad tells me Huff is on DL…wtf? Anxiety related??? I honestly feel bad for a guy we all have come down pretty hard on…how does he come back now 100% focused?
FYI: Belt is .347 against LHers career.. (47 AB)
Screw you Chapman! 98mph in the Ribs to Pill.Little jealous. though that we don’t move have anyone to drill you at that speed in are BP.Guess Casilla is are best bet.But of course the pussy you are, you we never bat anyway.
we are going to go extra innings…let’s go Giants
Did you know that Arias was the PTBNL in the A-Rod/Soriano deal? And in 2010 was traded by Texas basically straight up for Jeff Francouer? He must have some value…
A new house of horrors: that’s 7 straight in their yard.
Shit. Didn’t see what happened. Is it just me or are we making a lot of errors? Scoring 2 runs on 10 hits not so hot either!!!
Shit!
F’n shazbat, becoming a tough place to play. Where did the old Giants from the 80s always have bad road trips? The old Vet in Philly? Shea?
@eadacker..by far? easy. No bad starts. Era a full run better than any other starter. Need I go on? Not a fan of his, and note I said “crazy”..but as of this moment best starter “by far”!
I am just saying, he doesn’t lead the giants in one single category. Bum’s era is just as good. He is one of 3 starters off to a good start and he is pitching his best, by far, but he IS a solid #4 where he used to be a questionable #5
just saw the video of Affeldt barking at Sanchez in the dugout…what was the beef, pitch call I would guess?
The pitcher is responsible for what he throws. Maybe it as the wild pitch that Hector didn’t block. Whatever it was, it was bullshit.
Affeldt has not been sharp, no room to barking at a rookie catcher…
Did the unavailability of BW play a part in this loss as far as how the 7th inning was handled?
Undoubtedly some will say so, but there is zero way that it’s true.
Regardless, it’s a fair question.
Not really.
But I’d love to hear the spin that says it did.
Well, If BW was available, It might’ve been Casilla instead of Hensley which might’ve made the difference.
That’s the spin…
Bottom line is that you can agree or disagree, but NO ONE can prove the other incorrect.
Speculating as to what might have been is hardly showing that it was handled differently. You can do that with virtually every close game. I realize that you want to show that losing Wilson was huge, but this one doesn’t further your argument,
If one posits that Wilson’s absence was a factor, that person has the “burden of proof”, so to speak. As I just said, otherwise it can claimed that his absence was key to the loss in every close game they lose.
Hensley has only pitched after Casilla when games (2) went extra innings. In both cases, Casilla entered the game as the closer. It’s not plausible that Casilla would have been used before Hensley.
Just throwing it out there. All we can really do is speculate. I do think that if Wilson was OK, Casilla would have started the 7th, which admittedly guarantees nothing. I maintain that anyone who thinks the loss of BW is not going to hurt over the long haul will be proven wrong. We didn’t just lose any old closer. We lost an ELITE closer. And Twin, those stats you posted the other day about the impact of closers in general don’t take that into account do they? Those figures lump Mariano in with Benitez…
The stats weren’t about one closer vs. another. They were about the strategy of having one set closer vs. a “committee”, which is how it was for decades. No one, least of all ME, would say all closers are equal in talent. However, there are other factors that determine wheher Wilson will be missed to any significant degree. One is how many save opportunies there are this year. Another is OBVIOUSLY how effective *he* was going to be. “All we can really do is speculate”. Sure, and because you claim his loss is HUGE, you are going speculate that every close loss was because Wilson was MIA. Just for the heck of it, I’d be interested to know how many games you think they’ve lost so far because Wilson is out.
If there is a pitching order plan during a game, and it’s getting late in the game, and suddenly that plan has to change because, say, the closer suddenly comes down with food poisoning and is puking his guts out in the dugout, ok, then that pitcher’s unavailability might screw things up. Wilson has now been known to be gone for the season for quite awhile. At this point, Wilson doesn’t exist, has never existed, will never exist (sort of Vonnegut-ian). Bochy knows this and has been acting accordingly. Sounds to me like someone (Affeldt?) just didn’t do what he was supposed to do.