Before the Pitch Count Was Born There Was This Game…..
Today is the 50 year anniversary of the 16 inning pitching duel of Marichal/Spahn. Chris Jaffe of The Hardball Times wrote an article remembering it. Jaffe sends me links to articles he thinks Giants fans will enjoy and I forward them if I think they’re something you guys will like. His website is awesome, you should bookmark it. Here’s the link:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/50th-anniversary-the-marichal-spahn-duel/
It’s threads like this one that really deserve the personal attention of Mr. DJ Loo……
Here’s the box score. Sorry it’s so big, I couldn’t figure out how to snip it in one piece from baseball reference
I couldn’t find the pitch counts but Marty Lurie said on his Sunday morning show that Sphan threw 226 pitches, Marichal 254– I might be off a few pitches, that’s just what I recall him saying.
Lurie was positively gushing about this game on Sunday. I’m not certain of this because I was only listening in and out, but I THOUGHT I heard him say that Mays recently told him that before the bottom of the 16th started, Marichal said something to Mays (half joking) about hurrying up and ending it. And Mays told him he would take care of it. Something like that. Correct my recollection if any of you heard the Marty Lurie Show on Sunday.
Of course, Mays hit a bomb to end it 1-0 in the bottom of the 16th. And if anyone ever asks you who was the only player in major league baseball to homer in every inning 1 through 16, now you know the answer to the question……….
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
As a boy I enjoyed the great Willie at the Stick. Just watching him play ball it was magic. Sure stats tell a small part of what his presence was about. Only a small part. Watching him play was unforgettable. Damn I wish the Giants had someone with even half his flair.
Nice post, Nipper.
One of his best
Awesome post. I WISH I had the opportunity to see Mays play.
We were in the car heading back from an agility trial with the dogs this weekend and I caught most of Marty’s show where he was discussing this. The part where he was talking about it with Jon Miller was awesome.
Here is a snippet of a story I found that describes the game:
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“It was now 12:30 a.m. on July 3. Though he had gone 0-for-5, reaching only on an intentional walk, Mays promised the exhausted Marichal, who had thrown 227 pitches, that he would end the game that had seen great fielding plays and errors, stolen bases and pickoffs — everything but a run.
And now, one great man would face another for the last time in the game. The wind had died down to a soft breeze. Bathed in the strong, dueling lights that cast several shadows over each participant, Candlestick for once projected an otherworldly calm.
Spahn’s first pitch to Mays was another screwball. Instantly, Spahn knew he was in trouble. Rather than rotate away from the batter, the ball hung before Mays as juicy and tempting as a shiny apple on a tree. Mays unleashed his signature swing. In a Sports Illustrated retrospective four decades afterward, the late Ron Fimrite, who saw the game as a Chronicle news-side reporter on a night out and would call it the best game he ever saw, described “a high arc to left field, where, after hanging in the night sky for what seemed like an eternity, it landed beyond the fence.”
Giants 1, Braves 0.
Here is the link to the story. I have not read it yet, but will later today.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/the_bonus/06/28/kaplan.spahn.marichal/index.html
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Way cool to see this. SF with 4 prime guys in the middle of LU (at .800 OPS with Mays lowest) and they couldn’t score all night til the 16th. Stretch in LF…guy with the highest OPS in the game was Aaron, at .970 in July when they only played 154. both teams with good field no hit SS too, common thing in those days.
For all his animus about black and latin players lack of understanding of the game, Dark has 6 of them in his starting LU, 4 of whom are in the HOF.
Classic.
Don’t remember Eddie Mathews as hitting so poorly, must be one reason Braves were under .500. Spahn with the Braves only XBH–he was fine hitter as well. I think he hit something like 30 plus bombs in career. Like nip, used to enjoy Stick a lot in those days. Braves, like everyone else in the NL, had cool players too.
And Mays was batting in the two hole. Check out the 2-5 hitters for the Giants. I didn’t know much about Kuenn but the dude was a lifetime .300 hitter. Wow. Now that would have been a game to attend.
Thanks for sharing Flavor. Wonderful thread.
Mays is batting second that day, with a BA of .255, 15HRs and 39 RBIs and it’s the 79th game of the season. He ends the 63 season with a .314 BA, 38Hrs, 103 RBIs.
Besides the HR, it says Mays threw out Norm Larker at Home. Cool.
Good stuff on his final stats…thanks for sharing John.
That epic game will go down in history as “One of the all- time best classics ever pitched”
I believe an exhausted Juan Marichal( threw(227 pitches)told Willie Mays to just end this thing,which Willie told him he would.
SF Manager Alvin Dark kept asking Juan if he wanted out the game..”Alvin do you see that man pitching on the other side”?, pointing to Warren Spahn, Marichal told him “He’s 42 and I’m 25 and you can’t take me out until that man is not pitching!”
No appreciation of pitch count, but Alvin Dark knew to bat his best player in the 2 slot — the dude would be avant garde even by today’s standards. As a proto SABR guy, Earl Williams apparently has nothing on Alvin Dark
Just in case: 🙂
That’s fascinating. I just assumed Mays batted third, maybe fourth now and then.
Pawlie, you’re right. In 1963 Mays only batted 2nd in 20 PAs (4 games), 235 PAs batting 3rd and 414 PAs (96 games) batting clean up. He batted 9th that year twice as a PH.
This is good stuff. What a remarkable game by Spahn — 15 1/3 shutout innings with only 2 strikeouts, and his lone walk was intentional.
You talk about a fantastic HOF player:Warren Sphanmindboggling,
Won 20 games or more 13and times,pitched over 250innings 17 times and btw hit 35which bombs in his career!!!
Bad spelling, my bad using my phone.
Kat. As you know, you proposed a deal that would have involved Matt Dominguez of the Astro’s. As you may or not know, lately I’ve sometimes had difficulty with things that are normally my forte- I’ve provided incorrect and/or transposed numbers and some other mistakes that I might have been the only one to notice. In this case, I got in my head that you were referring to “Chris” Dominguez, a Giants’ farmhand., even though your post would have made no sense if you meant “Chris”. I would presume most here would excuse my error if I hadn’t given you a hard time when I was the one who was mistaken.. In any case, my apologies. I hope you will forgive my wrong headed comments…
No doubt about it. And became a Giant, a teammate of Mays, if I’m not mistaken. No one will ever match Spahn’s stats. (Least of all the 35 bombs!!!) No one.
The book by Jim Kaplan about this game struck me as so-so, but perhaps not entirely his fault. I sympathize with the challenge of making one game into a book. (It’s been done for the 1960 WS Maz HR game, attended by TwinFan with his mom.) I just felt he did not capture too powerfully the drama of the game. And when you think about it a game like that mixes drama and sheer tedium. (Who will make a mistake first?) So, Kaplan filled it with biographical details. Again, it’s not a bad book at all. Speaking of DJLoo, he generously and on his own initiative sent me a Marichal biography when this subject came up here. (I still have not read it, only because I am eccentric as to when I read a book; I read more fiction that non-fiction.)
Regarding Mays, well said by Nipper. I am writing a full-length memoir about being a Giants fan. (After some invaluable suggestions from author Hart Seely, I am taking my time; it may take another year, or two.) It is forcing me to explore exactly what was it about Mays that captured me and made me stick with the Giants after they moved. It’s hard to define, but these things come to mind: elan, fun, abandon, drama, timing, youth, dynamic, unconventional, exciting. Maybe fun most of all.
I could only imagine the difficulty of writing an entire book about ONE game. I went ahead and ordered the book…looking forward to reading it. I just do not have as many cycles to read as I would like. I have been on the same book for a few weeks now (“A Zen Way of Baseball: Sadaharu Oh) and it is not because it is a bad book…just the lack of time to read. Looking forward to reading your memoir.
Have you decided if you are coming out for the Orange Sombrero Flapalooza?
I remember reading that book on Oh in the Eighties and thinking it was one of the best books, of any sort. It dovetailed with my life and interests them, and now. By David Falkner, right? Around the same time I read Zen and the Art of Archery by Eugene Herrigel. I never forgot this Oh incident that was related: if he went 0 for 5, afterward he went to his basement to practice his swing. He did it with a samurai sword and trying to slice a tissue hanging from the ceiling on a string. Am I right? He said it helped him wait on the ball. Infuckincredible.
Although I have not checked costs and projects that pay me are sparse right now, I am leaning toward YES. Life is short. Plus, WTF it’s another chapter, for sure.
OT, but I’m curious, Pawlie — what’s your take on your neighbor George Saunders? that’s a bandwagon I’ve recently taken a seat on.
Xoot, maybe I simply have read the wrong pieces but George Saunders leaves me underwhelmed. He introduced David Sedaris at a December 2008 event here. (I like Sedaris a lot.) I don’t know, Saunders seems charming, smart, all that. I’m just not into his writing. I’ll tell you whom I love: Ian “Sandy” Frazier, of The New Yorker. His Cursing Mommy series of New Yorker pieces brought me to howls of laughter. (Apparently it was made into a novel, “The Cursing Mommy’s Book of Days.”)
Yep…great book. I have studied and dabbled in internal martial arts for years (Chinese – Tai Chi, Bagua, and Hsing-I). The Japanese internal art is Akido (which is what Oh studied and those studies played heavily on his batting stance, approach to hitting, and yes…his swing). Captivating stuff…loving the book (just wish I had more time to read). I have not reached the part you mention about him going 0-5, etc.
Awesome re: the Sombrero Flapalooza. I like your attitude…Life is Short, and it will make for a wonderful chapter in one of your books.
Interesting, Pawlie. (Chi, also.) I didn’t much care for Saunders until a couple of recent stories hit me by surprise. The Semplica-Girl Diaries and Victory Lap (the teenage kid with the bottled-up Tourette’s thoughts is quite a creation) are both good. His mix of the horrific and the humorous is unsettling, that’s for sure. Home, portraying the return of a vet from either the Afghan or the Iraqi front, is a helluva story.
Chi, there’s mediator a lot of lawyers used to use in difficult high-stakes cases who is an Aikido master of some sort. He moved to Maui, taught Aikido there. I flew over twice for mediations. He was cheaper there — $10,000 per day, I think. If you made him fly to the mainland to work for you, I think his rate went up 50%. His style is unusual, and obviously informed by his martial arts work. His ability to get litigants to settle is uncanny.
xoot, maybe that mediator in Maui can save my marriage. But don’t the parties need to be willing? [mmmmwhahahahahaha black humor]
Intersting stuff about the mediator (and Akido master) in Hawaii. And funny as hell how his rate went up substantially when required to fly to the mainland.
And yes…Spahn did finish his career with the Giants (1965).
Latest MLBTradeRumors on the Giants has the team scouting the Twin’s pen. Casey Fien is a Santa Rosa guy, has a 5 to 1 SO/BB ratio, good stuff. Closer Perkins is terrific, but he’d cost too much. Fien would be a typical under the radar deal, the kind that has been Sabean’s best.
Wish he could pull that off. Outstanding whip, only makes $500k and not Arb elig till 16. What would it take if Mn was interested?
Said they are scouting Joba also.
The way I read it, it was a correction on the Joba item and that we were not looking at Chamberlain. But maybe I read it wrong.
You’re right didn’t see that
Also mentioned Giants might have interest in Joba. Please, lord, not him.
“Elder, a Giants scout, was in Minnesota last night to see the Twins’ bullpen rather than Chamberlain, tweets Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle. “
Ok, I saw the correction too. Whew.
Just read that summary of the game at Hardball Times. Whew. There will never EVER be a game like that again. EVER.
Thanks, Magnus, for this diversion into 50 years ago, because frankly I’m having a difficult time with current baseball realities.
The way our boys in the Orange and Black are playing, I think we all could use a mild diversion. But I am sticking with my mantra from the past month or so: there is still a lot a ball left to play, trades can happen, Casilla and Vogey will get healthy, etc. I still think they can win the West.
Saw Mays play 3 times at the Stick and I just know when be was on the field, I found it hard to take my eyes off him.
Spahn’s previous game was a 3-hit shutout with no walks over the Dodgers on June 28. His next game after the Marichal duel was a 5-hit shutout with one walk over the Astros on July 7. So in a span of 10 days, Spahn allowed 1 run over 33 1/3 innings. And he was 42.
That is just amazing. Not sure if you read the link I shared earlier, but the dude was in WW II, and earned a Purple Heart (was in a couple of key battles).
I like the Kaplan book about that game. For some reason I forgot to put it on the Goodreads widget. I’ll put it on there today.
(By the way, the widget only holds 20 books at a time, so as I put new books onto it, others drop off.)
As Pawlie said, the book uses the game as a framework to be a dual biography of the two players, and every reader’s mileage may vary on how successful the book is at doing that. I generally thought the book succeeded at what it’s doing. I didn’t know much about either guy’s lives. One of the most interesting things was reading about Spahn’s war experiences. He got shot at in WWII, and when he got back and went into the major leagues, he said baseball games never made him nervous anymore. After being shot at, baseball never seemed as scary to him again.
Thanks for that reminder. I believe Cliff Lee (and no doubt many others) has said something along those lines: namely, my kid’s illness, that’s scary. Pitching? Nope.
He was actually grazed in the stomach by a bullet, and took shrapnel in one of his legs (he is a Purple Heart recipient). After fighting in a couple of key battles during the war, I can see how anything on the baseball diamond paled in comparison.
According to my younger brother, nine years my junior, I took him to his first MLB game, at Shea. Packed house. Mays homers, maybe a GS. And the Giants introduce the first player of Japanese heritage, Masanori Murakami. He always remembered the name! Now I gotta research the game at baseball-reference.com.
Well, memory is tricky, isn’t it. Murakami’s debut was 9/1/64 — and no HR by Mays in that game. Mets won 4-1.
I’m currently reading a pretty interesting book about DiMaggio’s 56-game hitting streak. One of the things the author does is make the reader think about DiMaggio’s legacy if he DIDN’T have the streak. It would change his legacy. DiMaggio was great, and won a lot of World Series, but his stats don’t translate into any particular lasting memory. When a player has a certain accomplishment that really sticks in peoples’ memories, it has a big effect on their legacy. Ruth has the 60 homerun season, and the 714 career number. Hank Aaron has 755. Mays has “The Catch.” Ted Williams has .406. And DiMaggio has the hitting streak.
Having just read the Mantle book, I was trying to think of Mantle’s, if he had one, and I guess it’s the legendary tape-measure homerun, which the author researched, and found out was not the 565 feet or whatever the Yankee PR man said, but probably closer to somewhere between 505-525, which is still a HUGE blast, but not quite as huge.
and Ted Kluszewski had his biceps
Mantle was mainly known for being a well-rounded five-tool player. He played hard in both baseball and life, and it all caught up with him.
I just read the things that were linked today. The one that Chi posted is from Kaplan, with material from the book. Here’s one of the quotes, which I had paraphrased:
“Spahn fought in the Battle of the Bulge and the fight over the bridge at Remagen, earned a battlefield commission to second lieutenant, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart. “Bullet nicked me here,” he once told Lester J. Biederman of the Pittsburgh Press, motioning to a scar on his stomach and neglecting to mention a shrapnel wound in one leg, “and another one grazed me on the neck.” As a result, the idea of baseball as a pressure-packed challenge never resonated with him when he returned to the majors in 1946. In Spahn’s words, “No one is shooting at me.”
classic; maybe the book was way better than I thought
Reminds me of Mrs. Snarkk’s late step Grandad. He was an Army sergeant in WWII in Europe. We were once with him and a bunch of Mrs. Snarkk’s family at Epcot in Disney World, in the faux Euro villages area. As we walked through the streets of the faux Frenchy village, I asked him if it reminded him of when he was in France. Not much of a talker, as usual, he waited a few seconds, then said only “Yep, ‘cept someone was shooting at my ass”. Nothing more was said…
The thing that stands out to me is that Spahn was 42 at the time of this 16 inning marathon. He wasn’t using HGH, I think we can conclude. Greenies? Who knows? I saw Mays play live once, at Game 2 of the ’71 Pennant series at the ‘Stick. My first ever MLB baseball game to see live. Bob Robertson clubbed 3 dingers, Bucs won 9-4. Mays hit a solo HR in the bottom of the 9th. We were in the parking lot headed out. I heard the roar, muted as it was…
There’s a Spahn quote I remember reading a long time ago (I think it was Spahn, maybe Sain), and I think the quote may have been in Bouton’s “Ball Four,” but I can’t remember. Spahn (or Sain) was talking about how great it is to be a starting pitcher after you’ve won your game, and you get on the bus, with the window rolled down, and enjoy “the cool of the evening.”
I really remember that phrase “the cool of the evening.” What could be a better job than being a starting pitcher after having won your game? You get to lounge around for several days feeling like the cock ‘o the walk. Krukow’s talked about that before. It’s the awesomely great part about being a starting pitcher. The downside is waiting those days after LOSING. Not a good feeling.
Just noticed that the Marichal/Spahn game was on a July 2 that fell on a Tuesday. I guess 50 year cycles are what they are, but I like that sort of detail. Perfect day to revisit it.
Nice observation. Very cool.
I liked the Kaplan book–Spahn, however, was not always such an admirable guy, the only thing that was kind of a turnoff. And PK, I would highly recommend the Marichal bio.
Giants RF Felipe went on to have many fine years with the Braves, yet another in the unending series of very talented black and latin OFs that started here and went on to bigger and better things elsewhere. bochy’s counterpart in Reds dugout, Sacto’s own Johnnie B., I believe was in on deck circle when Aaron hit # 715.
In those days if they used to have BP not too long before game. At a Braves game with buddies we had the scorecard/program and from 3b side were trying to figure out which high numbered guy was launching rockets into RF. One of my buddies mentioned “Woodward”–woody W wore number 43 or 44 and was light hitting back up middle IF. As the hitters ended BP, we saw it was 41 Eddie Mathews. Every swing he had swarm kids lining up in the open area that existed then behind the chain link fence in RF.
Wasn’t Mathews the only Braves player to play with the team in Boston, Milwaukee and Atlanta? And, I think Dusty hit a double after Aaron hit 715. I seem to recall Dusty saying something like, it was the least remembered hit in baseball.
WillieD – what was it about Spahn that put you off? How was he not admirable (is that a requirement of being a pitcher or ball player)?
He was kind of a chippy guy, had drinking problems as I remember. I don’t think he and Hank (and maybe other black guys on the team at that time) quite got along.
I think his personality kind of rubbed some people the wrong way.
Had to look it up, but Uecker was on Braves in ’63 for a few games. In a couple years there he hit .181. He tells the story of being in game catching Lew Burdette a pretty hard nosed vet who wasn’t doing very well. The mgr gives Ueck the sign to go out and talk to him–halfway there Burdette barks at him, “Get your ass back behind the plate. The only thing you know about pitching is you can’t hit it.”
Gametime Forecast: 77°F • Mostly Cloudy • 8%PoP
1. Gregor Blanco (L) CF
2. Marco Scutaro (R) 2B
3. Buster Posey (R) C
4. Pablo Sandoval (S) 3B
5. Hunter Pence (R) RF
6. Brandon Belt (L) 1B
7. Andres Torres (S) LF
8. Brandon Crawford (L) SS
9. Tim Lincecum (L) P
This is looking like a great homer of a line-up.
I just hope to see a clean game and SOME offense (and a good start from Tim would be cool, too). Not much really (well, not when you are a Giant’s fan who has experienced the last month or so of Giant baseball).
Twin…No worries and thanks for the apology ..
I knew I was talking about “Matt”Dominquez. And when you kept calling him Chris I had to wonder if I posted it wrong myself.Then I found it and I thought I never mentioned Chris and I thought maybe you were having a Jim Rome moment when he went off on QB Jim Everett and kept calling him Chris and Chrissy in reference to Chris Everett for his weak-ass football playing which sent Jim Everett ballistic and and jumping over a table to get to Rome.Pretty hilarious stuff!!
Damm I can’t type on this phone real well.
But I want to bring up my close buddy Jim Holloway who passed away June 3rd.I’m still in
shock and feel like I’m been punched in the stomach over his death.
I’m gonna bring up more later about him,just have to get back to work.
I f anyone wants to read a story about him before his death.I googled Jim Holloway May 23 about 2 weeks before his death.
And BTW I want to personally thank Twin,Bozo,Blade,Chi,BF,Unca,MacDg,Pawlie and really all the rest of you Flappers as well.Thanks for your support during a difficult time for me.
he he was that well loved.To me he was the “Finest Man I had the pleasure of knowing he’s fover 30 years
Kat,
Appreciate your sharing of that pain. We are here for you. That’s no small thing. Hoping you see this through — although I am not one to invoke that word “closure” because I do not feel these things get some tidy ending and it is all better. No. However, I do wish you some reward or surprise. That sounds strange, but I’ll explain. I very dear friend, Doug, died in May 2005. In his last week he asked if I’d do him a favor, do some sort of reading at a memorial for Doug. Sure, I said. Let me tell you. That was Doug’s huge gift to me. It was an unexpected benefit of his dying. Similarly, when my brother was dying that November, I went down to see him, say bye, in Florida. I’m not a golfer. At all. But he and I went to a nearby driving range. He was too weak to play, but he sat on a bench and told me how to swing, what to do. It was rewarding. It was priceless. Wishing the same for you.
You are so welcome, Kat. Flappers are like family, and as Pawlie said “we’re here for ya, brother.” I hope you and Jim’s family and friends find some semblance of peace and comfort as you continue to deal with your loss.
Besides being able to talk baseball with knowledgeable fans who share the love of Giant’s baseball, this blog offers a connection that is unique, and also tough to describe. But this is one glowing example of the connection and support shared on The Flap.
Pitch counts I attribute to two things, mostly.
1. The guaranteed contract. In the reserve clause days before Messerschmidt, if your starter pitched his arm off for three years and then was done, hey, he was done. He retired to sell insurance, and you got another arm. With free agency and guaranteed deals, you have to “protect your investment”.
2. The advent of the late innings Pen. When you can bring in guys in the 7th-9th that are fresh and throw 94 MPH heaters and 88 MPH splitters, why keep your starter in past 100 pitches? You don’t…
Chi, regarding Spahn, something I remember from the book is that Spahn was pretty tone-deaf regarding racial issues. He didn’t have much sympathy for what the non-white players had to face. I think in the Hank Aaron biography I read there’s a scene where Spahn asks Aaron what did the blacks hope to achieve with the civil rights movement. It’s a staggering amount of social tone-deafness. And in so many other areas of life, Spahn was such a good guy. That kind of thing still happens, sadly. Paula Deen was stunned that her behavior was considered racist. It was a big epiphany to her.
I’d like to know just how hard 42 year old Spahn was throwing in the 16 inning while he was 200+ pitches into the game. If the opposing batters couldn’t hit that, it calls into question, at least for me, the quality of player from that generation. Same thing with fat, drunk Babe Ruth. Anyone think he’d be domination today’s game?
Players were more hackilicious in those days. Games went quickly, and batters weren’t as choosy at what they were swinging at. And the strikezone went up higher. The batters had more strikezone to worry about. The strikezone was made smaller after the ’68 season, and the mound was lowered a few inches after that season, also.
’68 was such a dominant year for pitchers. McClain won 30 or 31 games. Gibson had his insane 1.12 ERA or something like that. Yaz won the AL batting title with a .301 average, I think. Pretty cool- be the only person to hit .300 in the league, and win a batting title!
Players had to swing more, but no way did they strike out like they do now. The strike zone was top of the shoulders to top of the knees.
I doubt Ruth would do worse than Prince Fielder. They threw the ball 90+ in the ’20s, too. As for the Giants lineup and PHs that day, I’d take obviously the top 5 guys and put them somewhere into the starting lineup today, hands down. I think we’d score some runs. Pagan and Davenport would be good to very good utility players…
“Same thing with fat, drunk Babe Ruth. ” Flav, that’s going to get ya some hate mail. I mean, you didn’t add the cocaine weight loss drugs he was probably using.
I’d say the talent back then was less diluted than it is now. Granted, players these days are in better shape, legal or otherwise, but less teams, less spots for players. Shit, Nolan Ryan was still bringing the heat at 47, but after 210 pitches? Who knows?
Look at the Giants lineup. Mays, McCovey, F Alou, Cepeda, Kuenn. The rest are no great shakes, but 3 of the first 5 are HOFers. Kuenn was ROY . . .
It’s commonly held that the ’60s was the golden age of baseball, with the highest quality talent per team of any time in baseball since 1900. The percentage of black players participating was at its highest in the 60s and into the ’70s, the top 10 players in the ’60s were at least half black, the number of teams was only 16 to 20, and players had to perform to get paid, no guaranteed deals. Nice summary at this link…
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1604333-tracing-black-players-mlb-impact-from-jackie-robinson-to-todays-game
Great start.
I was reading some blogs yesterday after the game and people were ripping Belt for hitting an HR. That it was meaningless, he should have hit it with somebody on or in a clutch situation. Craazy…
I’ve been hearing similar nonsense for years. Killebrew padding his stats by hitting “meaningless” HRs was a complaint from some Twins’ fans. Shit, if he had that much control he would have hit 800 home runs.
I knew a guy, since deceased, a Giants fan I met on the 7 train from Shea, who would claim — obviously with some hyperbole — that Hank Aaron never hit a significant home run. George Foster, either.
Tragicomedy
If he can get out of the inning with just one run, then the error doesn’t mean anything. And, yes, it’s a big “if.”
Excellent recovery.
But it did mean something– adding to his always high pitch count
Playing for one run, with the bunt, shows how much respect Dusty has for the Giants’ offense these days.
And time for a joke that Mickey Mantle used to tell, and evidence that Mickey had more of a subtle sense of irony than given credit for.
Mickey would say: “I died and went to the Pearly Gates, and St. Peter said ‘Mickey, you can’t come in because of the way you lived your life. But before you go can you sign 6 dozen baseballs?'”
When did the radar gun get invented? I’m serious, I have no idea. Were pitchers throwing 90+ in the 20’s? I’d guess, emphatically, that they were not, but that’s just based off common sense. Maybe one of you guys have a link that straightens me out on this…..
Why is speed the defining factor? I am only guessing, but I figure Spahn hit 88mph tops at any point in that game. But he knew how to get guys out, including with an apparently nasty screwball.
Sure, I know all about his screwball. And maybe it’s my inability to wrap my brain around someone throwing 16 innings but I am choose to believe he was totally gassed and tossing lollipops up there. Why couldn’t the hitters hit them? I don’t know. Maybe they weren’t lollipops.
But my eyes tell me the players from the 20’s and 30’s were not athletic the way today’s player is. They were short, small, some of them were fat, they all looked unhealthy….And I just refuse to believe those guys were throwing in the 90mph range without something that at least makes a little bit of common sense……
Sheez, BF, what is common sense about that? Has the human body advanced so much in 2 or 3 generations that Guillermo Mota could, but Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewsen and Bob Feller (30’s to 50s) could not throw 90+ at one time or another in a game? Feller’s fastball was recorded several times in the ’40s at around 100 mph, and he started as a youngster of 18 in the mid ’30s, so he was clearly bringing it harder then. I don’t have specifics about the other guys, but I don’t doubt for a second those guys were bringin’ it. How long they could go over 90 in a game, I don’t know. Anyway, check this out: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/fastest-pitcher-in-baseball.shtml. Excerpt from that link is the following:
“Sponsors recalled that back in 1917, in Bridgeport (Conn.) arms laboratory, Walter Johnson recorded 134 feet per second, Christy Mathewson 127 and “Smoky Joe” Wood 124. They used a gravity drop interval recorder.” [I convert 134 fps = 91.4 mph using an online converter]. The link goes on to say “Also, at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds he [Feller] was measured using the ever-popular speeding motorcycle test, once used in 1914 with Walter Johnson who reached 99.7 mph, and Feller reached 98.6 mph”…
thanks for the link, I have to run out for a while but will read it when I return.
After a bit of reading, a couple of other things of interest. Ruth started really playing as a hitter in 1918, ratcheting up his ABs in 1919-1920 and pitching less; after being mainly a very good pitcher from 1914 onward. He led the league in HRs in 1919 with 29, a new record. The spitball was not outlawed until the 1921 season, and lots of guys were still using an emery board to rough up the ball. Also, something I did not know, but makes sense, is that the same ball was often used in a game for up to 100 pitches or more, sometimes until the stuffing started leaking from the seams, which contributed to the “dead ball” era that Ruth helped end…
until the early 30’s (I can’t recall the year and am not looking it up) there were no ground rule doubles. If you bounced the ball over the fence, that was a HR
Cobb had that wonderful line about Johnson’s FB…something like …it looked like a watermelon seed and it hissed at you as it went by…
Also, in Ruth’s days, if a player hit what is today a “walk off” HR with a runner(s) on, if the lead runner(s) scoring were enough to win the game, the hitter was not credited with the HR, but a double or triple or single, as the case may be. No doubt Ruth probably lost a few HRs that way…
I had a tough decision to make about one of my pitching staffs this week than none of you will care anything about. The last spot came down to Fister or Lincecum. Both only get one start this week, both pitching on the road in tough parks. I went with Fister and sat Timmy and even after Fister gave up 4 in the 1st I still don’t feel like I made the right call…
Brian Runge has been dismissed for a failed drug test. No word on what drug. I understand that’s he’s the first ump busted for failing a drug test. Like players, umpires are subject to random drug tests.
Very interesting. Imagine if — as with detectives or prosecutors who taint evidence — his decisions now get overturned retroactively. Not.
An internet story says Runge had a knee injury last year, and was working his way back to MLB in the minors. Could be related to the injury?…
I was at a restaurant that was showing ESPN Sport Center at suppertime. They had a live feed of A-Rod warming up, A-Rod fielding grounders, A-Rod taking BP swings, A-Rod adjusting his cup, A-Rod stretching. Revolting. I mean, puhleeeez. It’s a rehab game. No. It’s pregame of a rehab game. Ridiculous. I am certain they did not do that for Buster Posey.
If they had A-Rod getting a syringe of PEDs into his ass, I might tune into that one…
Sheezus, this Giants crew cannot hit. Can’t they work the count at all?
6 pitches and the side is retired? Lincecum barely had a chance to get a slug of water and sit, and he’s back out there…
Bailey with a 6-pitch inning, that’s about Lincecum’s average per batter.
Who would you all rather have on long term deal (4-5), Shin -Soo Choo or Hunter Pence ?
probably Pence but really, neither
A co-worker’s complaining about how the Mets always make the third out on the bases. Hey, at least they have baserunners.
I heard something ridiculous that in Lincecum’s past 7 or 8 starts, while he was in the game the Giants had scored less than 10 runs total. That is a crazy stat, if true. Hello Giants. Do NOT let this Homer dude no-hit you. Hello Homer — there’s no jinx to mention that you’re throwing a no-hitter, a perfecto, not at all… 😉
This is the part of the game when Tim has been getting into trouble. Let’s see if he can get through here without any damage…
Fuck. Nope…
A Braves fan on Twitter challenged my declaration that Spahn-Marichal was the greatest pitchers’ duel. He said what about 1-1 26-inning tie in the Twenties or Harvey Haddix’s perfecto of 12 innings? well, 1. For me a 1-1 tie disqualifies as soon as I see the word “tie” and 2. With Haddix, it wasn’t as if the other pitcher had a perfect game going also. Not the same.
Heck. I just learned the game is free on MLB whereupon I was such fuckn good fuckn luck for the fuckn Giants as to see fuckn Brandon fuckn Phillips fuckin homer.
That’ll fuckn teach ya.
Another example of why Tim is going to end up a reliever. 5 innings and he runs out of gas, quickly. Up to then, 8 strikeouts. He still has the stuff to get guys out. He just takes too many pitches to get it done….
It really doesn’t seem all that long ago (it WAS this season, yes?) when being down 2 or 3 runs didn’t matter. The team had such great come-back ability, and spirit, for awhile there. Those were fun days! Not that long ago. I want to know what happened to both the ability and the spirit, as it’s pretty much the same cast of characters. Tonight, fighting just to not be perfecto’ed, would be a great time to get back on that come-back track…..
Pardon my French, but what the FUCK was that baserunning by Blanco?
This team has just gone into the tank from the perspective of playing smart baseball…
Pagon being gone, maybe ? Seems like the ride down the shit shut started when he got hurt.
If it’s Pagan, we should probably find something else to watch this summer. It’s over.
Pablo, Pence, Scooter, and Crawford aren’t hitting.
And Torres, and now Blanco.
It did start going down hill right after Pagan’s inside the park job. Coincidental, in some ways, with all the other injuries, but true. The team looks like they could use a week off on an island in Thailand… just way too pressing. Bailey is also pitching a very good game.
Damn, drinking this beer makes me not even know how to spell right. Pagan might not of been having a good season, but the guy did bring a swagger about him to the field I don’t know how he played out with the guys in the club, but I would think he would be well respected and a leader.
BF, you seem to have the idea that a bunch of players were bouncing the ball over the fence for homeruns in the early days. Yankee stadium used to be 460 (!) to straightaway centerfield. And the Polo Grounds was like 450 or something. Yeah, they were short right down the lines, but still……
I don’t even think all stadiums had warning tracks that would have helped a ball bounce over. And then the other probability factor I would weigh in is that, even today, how many ground rule doubles are actually hit in a season? Not that many actually. It seems like more than actually is.
I wasn’t suggesting that a bunch of players were doing it all the time. Just that it did happen and there is no data kept on how many or what part of the fence they bounced over.
Again, I’m going off my eye sight with this. These guys look like regular Joe’s from the bar down the street. Heck, the guys in the 80’s look like pussies compared to the players now.
There were a lot of ex-coal miners and farmers in those days. A bunch of “country strong” boys. (grin)
Giants with 2 hits now in 17 innings at Cincy.
You’re near the friggin’ season bottom when you’re just hoping for your squad to at least avoid a no-hitter, rather than to get the win…
It was like 275 down the lines there, Zumie . . .
The Polo Grounds was a weirdly-shaped ballpark. Shaped more like a giant horseshoe. Maybe because of land limitations. A gigantic centerfield for Mays to roam and show his greatness on defense.
4-13 ain’t getting it done. Fuck.
The thing about players in the old days is they worked ass-kicking type jobs. Working the farm wasn’t easy back then and most of these guys came off the farm. Playng baseball was easy as shit compared to the usual shit they did.
I don’t want to see a no hitter tonight, do any of you?
NO. time to get a hit and four runs.
No hitter my ass.
you tell ’em, mate.
we are NOT whistling in the wind. this team WILL turn around.
Bust this up, Tony.
Bailey is doing this with fastballs tonight. It’s sad. The Giants can’t seem to hit his fastball.
Blanco’s redemption?
The strike zone just got a little taller.
Pathetic.
Wow. Would Scooter have been safe if Blanco didn’t get thrown out at 3rd?
Kruk said that but I didn’t see the back end of that play.
I thought that was Posey at bat on that play, and I’m not convinced he would have beaten that out.
It was Posey. Flemm seemed to think it would have been a hit had Blanco not had his baserunning brain fart…
If it was Posey, then nevermind.
Well, that sucked.
Sure, we’re still close, but this team looks as flat as a pancake.
Tip yer cap, my ass. This team flat can’t hit their way out of a wet paper bag.
Get on your phone, Sabean.
Phone? Tell Sabes to get off the ledge.
Well, it would be a lotta phone calls with about 10 guys not hitting.
Still and all, we knocked them out of the playoffs . . . Much rather have that than this meaningless midseason suckfest.
Hello, Rock-bottom.
Uh, there’s 2 more games on this roadie. They may have hit bottom, but theyare still sinking . . .
(paraphrasing Soundgarden here)
The only more bottom “bottom” is a perfect game against them tomorrow. I’m not ruling that out…
1-7 on this roadie, capped by a no hitter.
2 hits in 2 games against Cincy.
Worst total record in MLB over the past 40 games.
We’re officially crap right now…
Yes, the Giants are pre-Columbian flat, flat, flat, but I will tip my hat to Homer Bailey. Someone who has two no-hitters in a matter of months is no fluke. I’ll give him his due. But it’s been years since I’ve felt this down about the Giants. I feel it all the more because — well — we are the defending champs. Yup, the bigger they are the harder they fall. “And wasn’t it a long way down? Wasn’t it a strange way down?” — Leonard Cohen, “Dress Rehearsal Rag”
1) Tip your hat to Bailey. 2) Bailey owes Blanco a big thank you, because yes I do think Posey would’ve been safe at 1st on the fielder’s choice that nabbed Blanco at 3rd. 3) If any team is ripe to be no-hit, it’s the Giants (that hurt to type that). 4) Maybe pride will kick in and this will jog the team out of it’s collective suckitude. What do you do? Can’t fire all the players, and it’s not the coaches’ fault. Just gotta wait it out and hope it comes back. Unfortunately, we’ve seen this before… 2011… and it never came back…
Bailey was dominant. I can’t remember a guy recently, other than Verlander, who was still throwing darts at 96-97 in the 9th of his no hitter. Well earned, well deserved……