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2012 Starting Staff Earning a Place in History?

Posted in Uncategorized by dirtnrocksnomo on July 18, 2012

With his performance last night Zito notched his 8th win. With Vogelsong going today and Bumgarner and Cain pacing the staff it got me to thinking that the Giants could have multiple ten game winners in 2012. Now, I know that in this age of stats, sabermetrics and fantasy league rosterbation the W is not what it used to be what with all the other fancy new measurements and what not. Still at the end of the day a W is a W and accumulating wins gets your club to the post season. Doing an exhaustive search of the inter webs I found that a staff of multiple 10 game winners isn’t something that happens too often. Free agency, league expansion, the decline in popularity of the sport driving the better athletes to different sports are just some of the reasons. Here are the numbers so far for this years staff.

2012 SF Giants: Bumgarner (11-5, 3.15), Cain (10-3, 2.56), Zito (8-6, 3.75), Vogelsong (7-4,2.36), Lincecum (double double animal style)

While not complete, 2012 is shaping up as quite a year of pitching by the bay. Take a look at the list below. It is littered with famous names and flashes in the pan, teams that won it all and teams that didn’t but the starting pitchers won a lot of games for their teams. From just a win/loss record where do you think individuals starters of the 2012 staff will finish? Where do you think this SF Giants staff needs to end up at the year to be included in the discussion?

1988 Mets: David Cone (20-3, 2.22), Dwight Gooden (18-9, 3.19), Ron Darling (17-9, 3.25), Sid Fernandez (12-10, 3.03), Bob Ojeda (10-13, 2.88)
2003 A’s: Barry Zito (14-12, 3.30), Tim Hudson (16-7, 2.70), Ted Lilly (12-10, 4.34), Mark Mulder (15-9, 3.13)
2002 Braves: Tom Glavine (18-11, 2.96), Greg Maddux (16-6, 2.62), Kevin Millwood (18-8, 3.24), Damian Moss (12-6, 3.42)
1929 A’s: Lefty Grove (20-6, 2.82), George Earnshaw (24-8, 2.82), Rube Walberg (18-11, 3.59), Jack Quinn (11-9, 3.97)
1954 Braves: Warren Spahn (21-12, 3.14), Lew Burdette (15-14, 2.76), Gene Conley (14-9, 2.96), Chet Nichols (9-11, 4.41), Jim Wilson (8-2, 3.52)
1972 A’s: Ken Holtzman (19-11, 2.51), Catfish Hunter (21-7, 2.04), Blue Moon Odom (15-6, 2.50), Vida Blue (6-10, 2.80), Dave Hamilton (6-6, 2.93)
1964 White Sox: Gary Peters (20-8, 2.50), Juan Pizarro (19-9, 2.56), Joe Horlen (13-9, 1.88), John Buzhardt (10-8, 2.98)
1927 Yankees: Waite Hoyt (22-7, 2.63), Urban Shocker (18-6, 2.84), Herb Pennock (19-8, 3.00), Dutch Ruether (13-6, 3.38), George Pipgras (10-3, 4.11)
1954 Cleveland Indians: Early Wynn (23-11, 2.73), Mike Garcia (19-8, 2.64), Bob Lemon (23-7, 2.72), Art Houtteman(15-7, 3.35), Bob Feller (13-3, 3.09)
1954 New York Giants: Johnny Antonelli (21-7, 2.30), Ruben Gomez (17-9, 2.88), Sal Maglie (14-6, 3.26), Don Liddle(9-4, 3.06), Jim Hearn (8-8, 4.15)
1966 Los Angeles dodgers: Sandy Koufax (27-9, 1.73), Don Drysdale (13-16, 3.42), Claude Osteen (17-14, 2.85), Don Sutton (12-12, 2.99)
1993 Atlanta Braves: Greg Maddux (20-10, 2.36), Tom Glavine (22-6, 3.20),Steve Avery (18-6, 2.94), John Smoltz (15-11, 3.62)
1986 New York Mets: Ron Darling (15-6, 2.81), Dwight Gooden (17-6, 2.84), Sid Fernandez (16-6, 3.52), Bob Ojeda(18-5, 2.57), Rick Aguilera (10-7, 3.88)
1971 Baltimore Orioles: Mike Cueller (20-9, 3.08), Pat Dobson (20-8, 2.90), Jim Palmer (20-9, 2.68), Dave McNally(21-5, 2.68)
1998 Atlanta Braves: Greg Maddux (18-9, 2.22), Tom Glavine (20-6, 2.47), Denny Neagle (16-11, 3.55), Kevin Millwood (17-8, 4.08), John Smoltz (17-3, 2.90)

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  1. PawlieKokonuts said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:28 am

    Good numbers to chew on for breakfast. It’s curious — and disconcerting for the current campaign — that many of those fine staffs did not win the World Series.

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:35 am

      That jumped out at me too. If I remember correctly most of the clubs made the post season though. First things first my man!

      • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:08 am

        Good thread dirt. I just saw a special on Bob Feller and that 1954 team was very, very good, but lost in the WS to the Giants. Feller thought that his team was one of the best ever. Feller added though – that everything they did in that series failed and conversely, everything the Giants did succeeded. It just wasn’t meant to be.

  2. blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:51 am

    Weatherproof games: Cardinals-Brewers and Indians-Rays

    Mets-Nationals could be an ugly affair with thunderstorms hovering over the nation’s capital throughout the night. Same goes for White Sox-Red Sox with Boston covered in rain. Pirates-Rockies and Angels-Tigers are expected to get some rain early on, and Orioles-Twins may experience a late-inning shower, but this trio of games might be able to avoid the tarps.

  3. eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:11 am

    fascinating list to read, rocksSD, thanks. I know we will have 3 solids and 2 maybes. that puts us in line with the 64 White Sox and not quite the 71 Orioles.
    Cain – 19
    Bum – 18
    Voggey – 12
    Zits – 11
    Tim – 8

  4. eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:17 am

    the braves of the Glavin/Maddox era
    5 NLCS wins and 3 runners up
    1 WS win and first series outside the US participants

  5. chipower9 said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:23 am

    Giants shutout the Braves in HotLanta 9-0 and Zits goes 7 strong…

    Bums loose, again (thanks Phillies)…

    Being a Giant fan and a part of Flap Nation…PRICELESS.

    Excellent thread, Dirt.

    I agree Ed – I think there is a very strong possibility that the Gigantes have four starters with 10+ this year. My guesstimate:

    MadBum – 18
    Cain – 17
    Vogey – 14
    Zito – 13
    Tim – 9

  6. tedspe said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:36 am

    Interesting topic. You might want to double-check that Vogelsong ERA

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:23 am

      Thanks Ted. I’d like to say I fat fingered that but really I don’t know what happened there. Should be up to date now.

  7. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:58 am

    Nice work Dirtmaster!!!
    That Orioles team was quite impressive,with 4 /20 game winners,Brooks and Frank Robinson,Paul Blair,and the Boogie man Boog Powell at 1B.Led by IMO the Best manager of alltime the ever fiery Earl Weaver.His record among all managers is hard to top.
    Giants Starters:
    Bum-21
    Cain-20 plus Cy Young
    Vogy-14
    Zits-12
    Freak-9

  8. chipower9 said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:15 am

    I missed most of the game (out running errands and grabbing a bite). Cool that they put up a 9-spot with Pablo going 0-fer-5. White Shark’s OBP is on the rise (still needs to cut down on his SOs). Mudbug with 2 hits. Posey going OFF! And Zits with the lock-down 7 innings. Great game for the boys. Hopefully they and VogelStrong can carry it on into today. Keep that train a rollin’!

  9. Nipper said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:32 am

    Zito looks productive! Posey looks like an all star. Catch the fever!

  10. Bozo said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Interesting stats Dirt. It got me to thinking about the 93 Giants team and their 103 wins. You had two 20 game guys (Swift, 21-8, Burkett 22 -7) and starters Black at 8-2 and Trevor Wilson at 7-5. The bullpen picked up wins in both starting and relieving.. Burba tops that list with a 10-3 record with 5 starts and Hickerson 7-5 with 15 starts. But the amazing thing to me and one I didn’t remember was Brantley (5-6) getting 12 starts. BTW, Beck got 48 saves that year
    Anyway, the interesting thing to me was two guys get you 43 Wins and thirteen other guys were needed to pick up the other 60.

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:52 am

      I thought about using that as the topic but the list of clubs with multiple 20 game winners was pretty slim and I don’t think that this staff will quite make it. Not that I wouldn’t like to see it happen.

  11. willedav said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:07 am

    I looked over 2010 stats for SF, and while the top 5 in the rotation won 58 games they also lost 50, led of course by zito 9-14 record. If you look at some of the rotations above, a few had very good high pct. w/l seasons…the two braves starters combos only lost 33 and 38 games and the mets one only lost 30. some glittering records in there like 17-3. Lincecum probably isn’t going to give SF much shot at topping those pcts.
    I recall posting something re: blade and zito about being pleasantly surprised by his decent starts at beginning, but I’m always hesitant to give him too much respect. Tho this year he has been plenty “serviceable” enough as #5, surely. As opposed to Lincecum, so far he has had way more decent outings than bad ones.
    Before we throw the last shovelful of dirt on the career of Jonathan Sanchez, I’ll bring up his 2010 numbers again: 3.07 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, 13 Ws, and 205 Ks in 193 innings. A couple of those numbers were better than Cain and Lincecum, and he had improved for the second consecutive year in lowering WHIP and ERA. At that point I thought he was on the road to becoming a very solid SP who was very hard to hit (I think league BA against was around .210).
    Maybe the post season meltdowns triggered something that started his slide into suckitude, and whether it is physical, mental, mechanical or all of the above I have no idea.

    • Nipper said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:12 am

      Sanchez may still be useful. Giants should at least consider revisiting him if possible.

  12. willedav said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:17 am

    I also made many posts saying I did not expect much out of Vogs this year. I thought his second half last year portended a decline into 4.00 ERA territory and that he might not last out the 2 yr deal in the rotation.
    Obviously I’m way wrong. The guy has been lights out gritty competitor and solid all season. And an academy award for best actress in a supporting role to mrs. vogs for her “inspiration” too (tho the exorcism stuff is too weird for me).

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:39 am

      The jury is still out on Zto since he has NEVER put two solid halves together since he’s been here.
      2007 4.90 4.11
      2008 5.62 4.59
      2009 5.01 2.83
      2010 3.76 4.70
      2011-Injury year
      2012- 4.01 ?

      BTW, I haven’t checked this one in awhile, but I’m pretty sure he’s never had two sub-4.00 ERA months in a row.

  13. twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:25 am

    I don’t know about the rest of you but you can’t imagine my relief when Zito didn’t give 10 after Buster strapped on the gear…
    A tidbit on why trading draft picks won’t work- 40 percent of FIRST rounders never make the Majors..
    Vera is in a frenzy- the word from the brass- no Ambrosia Salad- no Whitey!

    Others have mentioned it, but absolutely grab Jonathan if it’s doable. Start him in San Jose like it’s a rehab and see if he can build some confidence up…
    Belt: OK, the Hector voodoo doll worked-time to start hitting again.

    • TedSpe said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:33 am

      I hope it’s just a voodoo doll. I was getting ROSEMARY’S BABY/John Cassavetes vibes. Until williedav brought it up, I had completely forgotten Sanchez had 205 strikeouts in 2010. Impressive. Then again, just to be a killjoy, he led the league in walks as well

      • chipower9 said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:14 am

        That has been his MO more often that not…nasty stuff/high strikeout rate, but also a high walk rate.

        I like others agree…if there is anyway for the Giants to pick him up on a lark…go for it…

  14. Macdog said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:02 am

    From Baggs: Giants DL Hector Sanchez. Whiteside up. Whiteside is on a flight from Las Vegas and is scheduled to arrive in Atlanta just before game time.

    • zumiee said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:07 am

    • Bozo said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:18 am

      Wow, talk about winning big at the roulette table. Old Vern must have had a fist full of orange chips that he was putting down on black.

  15. zumie said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Some great sounding names in that list, Dirt.
    Urban Shocker, Early Wynn…..the ’60 Pirates had some cool names- Law, Friend, and Face…..
    Face had an amazing season in ’59. 18-1. The league got FACED!

    • Macdog said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:13 am

      Yeah, Urban Shocker, sounds like a pro wrestler. And good stuff, Dirt. Some great staffs to look over. Interesting, the Giants knocked off two of those teams in the postseason: Indians in ’54 and Braves in ’02. As for win totals, I’ll go MadBum 18, Matty 16, Zito and Vogey 12 each, Timmy 8.

  16. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:13 am

    Blue Moon Odom was one of my favorite nicknames when I was a kid. Don’t know why, it just sounded so cool. That and Catfish Hunter. Never much of an A’s fan but those nicknames were alright.

    Don’t worry. I’m sure Bochy will just insert El Presidente for Hector’s 2/5ths starts. I kid, I kid (I think)

    Happy happy joy joy.

  17. eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:17 am

    July 17 8pm
    Giants manager Bruce Bochy said the club did not plan to call up another catcher as a precaution, even though third baseman Pablo Sandoval would be the backup to Buster Posey if Sanchez is sidelined.

    July 18 10am
    The Giants placed catcher Hector Sanchez on the 15-day disabled list with a left knee sprain and recalled Eli Whiteside from Triple-A Fresno.
    Whiteside is catching a flight from Las Vegas, where the Grizzlies were playing, and was expected to arrive at Atlanta’s Turner Field shortly before game time.

    this is why I say I do not know enough to predict what management will do. too many variables

    BTW, one plane ride and Eli has earned an extra $400,000 this season, that hasta feel good.

    • zumiee said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:20 am

      pro-rated, but still a nice raise.

  18. twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Not surprising after seeing that Whitey was the only other catcher on the 40-man. One note of extreme importance: we finaly have someone to run for Buster..

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:32 am

      Actually, it was going to be Williams, but the jello in his Mom’s salad didn’t set…it’s the little things that can make or break a prospective big leaguer.

      • eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:43 am

        Damn! A mom that can’t make jello

  19. blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:53 am

    Ed, did you have Francisco Rodriguez all season, most of the season or, did you just pick him up? Flav and I were discussing Axford and it looks like Rodriguez was just handed the closer job after Ax blew up a few days ago.

    • eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:59 am

      added him yesterday afternoon, you can see every transaction all season and the draft results. I wish they made it easier to see who had whom when, don’t you?

      • dirtnrocksnomo said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:07 am

        You beat me to it Ed. I went looking for him when I saw the news and you had him already. DOH!

      • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:21 am

        Good move . . . I should have anticipated this after Axford blew up the other night, but was caught sleeping at the wheel. You’ve come a long way from last year Ed. Good luck going forward.

      • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:23 am

        Ahh . . . I see that now. I was on the Players page specifically looking for Rodriguez and it only indicated that you had him, i.e., I see on the League page that you grabbed him yesterday.

      • eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 12:05 pm

        I learned from you Steve, especially after Trout.

        😀

  20. twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 10:58 am

    A poll of MLB wives shows that 96% of them keep the phone books in the oven. Of those 96% more than half think that the oven is actually called the “Phone Book Shelf”.

    • eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:04 am

      and ‘single cleat shoes’ are high heals

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:13 am

      Nicole is a litle smarter than some- she uses it as a panty warmer.

  21. gianthead said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:55 am

    the ’88 Mets would be hard to overtake…what a year for that staff. Ojeda had a losing record but ERA at 2.88. We will be lucky if Lincecum breaks under 5.00 and I think we have to be happy if Zito ends up in the low 4s. The ’93 Braves to me were much better than their 2002 counterpart…

    So to be ranked in the all time greats, I think Bum and Cain have to both win 20 and Voggy at 15…with how bad the NL West is this year, I expect we will stomp a lot of these teams and those three will hit their marks…

    • dirtnrocksnomo said, on July 18, 2012 at 12:22 pm

      I’m thinking the same thing. 2 starters need to get to 20 wins to get into the discussion. It could happen but I see just Cain with 20. Bumgarner has shown poise beyond his years since coming up but he will fall just short at 18 or 19. Zito and Vogelsong should get there. Lincecum has an out side shot at 10 and maybe 5 starters at 10 wins vaults them into the conversation. Maybe sitting at home watching the AS Game got him fired up to go. Who knows? I hope so. Intersting to me that 2 relievers on the club also have matched Lincecum’s 3 Ws (Hensley & Lopez).

  22. blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Idiotic column by Rael Enteen of CSN Bay Area Comcast, indicating that the Giants (Sabean) should be looking for a closer to replace Casilla. Huh? First off, teams rarely go outside mid-season in search of relievers. The MO is usually exhausting all in-house options before you even think about going outside the organization. Second, the choices he’s suggesting don’t inspire confidence that they could get the job done, e.g., Brett Myers, Francisco Rodriguez, Jonathan Broxton, Huston Street and Matt Capps. Street plays in our division, so that isn’t going to happen. Last, but not least, Casilla has been excellent, except for a couple of recent hiccups. This is the column via Bleacher Report’s site . . .

    http://bleacherreport.com/tb/d81fk?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=san-francisco-giants

  23. eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    A lot of pundits think Street is reachable, to me offence is needed more.

  24. chipower9 said, on July 18, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    I think we are fine with Casilla (and the way that Bochy has managed the pen). To me the principal need is a RH bat with some pop.

    • demp28 said, on July 18, 2012 at 1:41 pm

      In response to ChiP, I agree with the job Bochy has done with the ‘pen. Besides, if it ain’t broke…
      Will be very interesting to see how the lineup will look once Whiteside is penciled in. Me thinks he gets the start tomorrow since it’s a morning game.

  25. twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    My position is as it’s been- there are some areas where it would be *nice* to improve, but the team will win the West as is. Deep in the postseason? Even just three good starting pitchers can handle that. One caveat- it’s the first annual Brandon Belt Two Weeks- he needs to kick it in -now.
    Christian RF, Theriot 2B, Cabrera LF, Posey C, Sandoval 3B, Pagan CF, Belt 1B, Arias SS, (Vogelsong P)

  26. DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    From MLB Trade Rumors :

    The Giants have no plans of making a deal similar to the one they made last year, when they traded Zack Wheeler for a rental (Carlos Beltran). They are looking for a bat or two, however.

    Nothing we didn’t already know, I guess…

  27. chipower9 said, on July 18, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    I agree, Twin (that they can win the West, as is). But a RH bat (doesn’t have to be a starter – someone who can play the corners or OF) who can come off the bench would be great. Hensely makes me nervous at times, so I think maybe a RHer for the pen would be good, too, but Penny (if he stays consistent) could be that guy I was wanting a month or so ago.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:23 pm

      The highest on the prospect totem pole I’d go is Peguero, Bochy, like that. If that means they can’t get anybody, so be it.

  28. demp28 said, on July 18, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Phils/Bums tied 1-1 going to bottom of 9th.

  29. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Penny’s looked pretty damn good in his few outings. I think the pen is good to go. Everyone’s talking Willingham. Why not? He shouldn’t be too pricey. If we could only trade draft picks. . . .

    I know, yesterday’s theme.

    I was going to say, that the baseball draft and NFL/NBA drafts are worlds different. Mainly becuause of the learning curve baseball players go through. Even the best #1 prospects have usu 3 (2 or less if they are otherworldly) years of seasoning in the minors. In the NFL/NBA a lot of the 1st rounders (or later) come in and immediately impact their teams. Sure, there are busts in both leagues, but that’s nothing compared to MLB in terms od success rate.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:01 pm

      The bust rate is why trading draft picks won’t work. As I posted earlier, 40 percent of even first rounders don’t ever make the bigs.

      • snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:24 pm

        It doesn’t have to “work”. GMs know the success rate of picks. That’s why the discussion covered limited tradability to the first few rounds because after that, it’s even more of a crapshoot. You just factor into the “package” of the trade that even first round picks are a crapshoot. So, if the player to be traded is good, you throw in 2 first rounders or mix and match high picks for several years. Failure rate of early rounders is just part of the calculus of the negotiations, like anything else…

  30. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Maybe we can fleece the Royals again,their GM Drayton Moore is a total idiot.

  31. blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Guerra is auditioning for his role as “gas can.” Bases loaded in 10th.

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:17 pm

      He got the role . . . Pence singled and the Phils lead 3-1.

  32. dirtnrocksnomo said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Admittedly I don’t follow the Royals but I don’t agree that their GM is a total ass hat. Sure in retrospect he lost the trade but the Royals strength (currently #7 in MLB) is offense as their farm system has been pumping out position players. Cabrera was a chip to deal from a position of strength and they tried to fill a need by getting Sanchez. They also got Verdugo. I don’t know much about him but maybe he pans out for them. The mistake was going for Sanchez but seems like most GMs were taking a wait and see approach after Cabrera’s performance last year so there must not have been much to choose from. I am sure they would have picked up a better arm if they could have.

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:57 pm

      Agree Dirt. Sanchez turned out to be a big mistake, but anyone going into that trade, would have said this is a win/win for both KC and the Giants. At the time, everyone said the risk on the Giants side was that Melky’s great last season in KC was likely an outlier . . . Well, that turned out to be false. Conversely, everyone was saying that Dirrrty was a talented pitcher, with an outstanding arm, albeit, lacked control (walks). We all know how that story turned out. In any event, GMs are evaluated on their full body of work, not one “oh shit.” Even Sabean has had a few of them (and I consider him the best in the business).

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 4:17 pm

      Another reason that Melky was expendable is the fact that Lorenzo Cain, was expected to shine this year, after making a big impact late in the season last year, after being called up. That “plan” was playing out to perfection in Spring Training, as Cain had one of the best springs of anyone in MLB . . . but went on the DL in week one of this season.

  33. chipower9 said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Bums with 1st and 3rd, one out. Kemp on deck and Ethier in the hole. Come on Papelbon!

  34. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    I think the reason those staffs mostly got to the post season but rarely won the WS is because that’s what they were built to do— get there. If you send out a quality pitcher *every fifth day* it’s likely you’re gonna win a lot of games. The post season is more geared to the staff’s that have 1 or 2 dominant CY studs. You don’t need you’re 5th guy to start a game in the WS and really could rig it so that you could go with just your 1-2-3 guys.
    Of course, it always comes down to who’s pitching hottest at that time of the year anyway, and that could be your 1 or your 5……

  35. Macdog said, on July 18, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Jeez, Phils use 4 relievers to get 3 outs in the 9th and keep it at 1-1, and then Papelbum blows a 3-1 lead in the 10th.

  36. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    “twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 9:39 am (Edit)
    The jury is still out on Zto since he has NEVER put two solid halves together since he’s been here.
    2007 4.90 4.11
    2008 5.62 4.59
    2009 5.01 2.83
    2010 3.76 4.70
    2011-Injury year
    2012- 4.01 ?’

    Since Twin brought it up, I’ll throw in my 2 cents on this topic. I’m not arguing that he HAS put two good halves together. He hasn’t, as your stats clearly show. You could argue that he hasn’t put up too many good halves for the Giants in his entire career.
    Now with his ERA sitting at 3.75 on the year, I want to come back to a possible *reason* that this year could be different (since finding a reason for something happening isn’t just reserved for diagnosing Tim’s shitty year, right?)
    I’ve brought this up before, but the change is pretty astounding. He’s not throwing his shitty fastball as often this year as he has in the past. It’s like he’s finally given up on try to re-capture those long, lost, never coming back 3-4 mph’s……

    Since 2002, he’s always thrown his fastball between 50-60% of the time each game he pitches. This year is different. In 2012, he’s only throwing his fastball 33% of the time–this has been consistent all year. He’s taken away the option of the hitter to sit on his shitty, hit-me fastball by throwing it much less often. This allows them to guess wrong more often and be beaten (or tricked) more often. As I noted 6 weeks ago, he’s throwing his slider 35% of the time this year which is, by far, the most he’s ever thrown it per game in previous seasons.

    Will this change lead to a FULL YEAR of positive results? I don’t know, but it is a reasonable theory for why he will keep this nice run going in 2012.
    Here is the chart at fangraph’s that I used for this post:
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=944&position=P#pitchtype
    you might have to click on *pitch type* when you get there.

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 4:58 pm

      Finding a reason is good for anyone. But how do you explain the first half of 2010 and the second half of 2009?

      • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:02 pm

        The point being- no one has found it more than Zits and there’s always a different reason- but ultimately the same result…

      • Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:07 pm

        I can’t. He wasn’t doing anything differently. My point in bringing this up again isn’t to argue about it. Now he IS doing something different. It’s at least a sound theory as to why he’s pitching better. If you have a shitty, dying fastball that you stubbornly keep throwing, it’s likely that you’re going to get beat with it more often than not (especially if the hitter is sitting on it).
        But he’s not throwing it 55-60% of the time anymore. he’s throwing it 33% of the time making it very difficult to sit on THAT. Obviously, he still needs his curve, change up, cutter etc. working. I’m not saying it’s ALL dependent on simply throwing his fastball 20% less of the time.
        I’m just saying that it is theoretically contributing to his success this year.

      • Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:11 pm

        actually, I don’t think there’s *always a different reason*. Most people just say *no one knows why or when he’s going to pitch well, it jsut happens*. So I would argue that I am at least proposing a theory, unlike other people who just say it’s all random.
        And we are into the middle of July right now and his ERA sits at 3.75 so it’s getting hard to say this is all just random, especially after I have put for a clear, plausible theory as to why he’s pitching better in 2012.

      • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:26 pm

        His ERA was 3.75 on August 22 of 2010- and that was after three straight shellings.
        Anyway, I’m not arguing it, just presenting facts. Hope you’re right.

      • Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:31 pm

        I know what his ERA was in 2010. And you’re recall that it was that *3 appearance in 7 days for 3 losses* thing in August that was the beginning of the end of his season that year.
        And I AM presenting facts as it relates to how often he’s throwing his fastball this year.
        Well, I gotta go to my game just as this one is starting. I’ll catch you guys later…..

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:45 pm

      *He* has always given a different reason…but whatever- he *has* pitched better than now for whatever the reason. Actually, his pattern this year is not much different than some others-he’s been unable to even put two good months together. We might need him to finally do what he’s he never done, so as I said, I hope you’re right.

    • snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:48 pm

      If I’m reading the stats right, it looks like a lot higher slider % this season. I heard on post-game somewhere last night that supposedly he’s throwing a lot more cutters this year, to take advantage of movement since his FB is slow. Maybe the cutters are being recognized in the data as sliders? I don’t know the terms well enough on the chart to know if these data geeks count cutters separately…

      • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:34 pm

        As he’s said, BF has a perfectly plausible theory. It isn’t one that can be proven as yet, however.

  37. blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Phils let the Bums off the hook . . . Kemp just homered. Pffffft!

  38. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    I’m killing some time before my softball game this evening by watching the pre-game show at CSNbayareasports (or whatever this station is called). I almost never watch Papa and the rest of them but we’re in a rain delay so……..
    They are all idiots. Bill Laskey is probably a little worse than Vida. Ray Ratto was on and everything he said was superficial and something any casual fan might say. I don’t understand why these tv guys can’t do a little research and form some different opinions than the typical bullshit we hear from the normal tv robots……..

    • snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:53 pm

      These TV guys are lazy, because they focus on one or two glaring things to grab attention and keep it. Too many stats don’t play well on TV, or in the beat guys’ articles. It’s rare to have any of the beat guys really discuss stats and performance on a cellular level. It’s mostly on the glandular level. He’s been “hot”, 14 for the last 32, is about as good as that gets. I heard a guy today on the radio who was some sort of rotisserie league specialist/advisor, and he KNEW his shit way more than these talking heads do. At least he could throw the stats and compare strengths and weaknesses of players, BIG time…

  39. DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    Laskey was our Matt Cain in ’82 – a real horse…

  40. eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    game on garth

  41. ewisco said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    just got home from the A’s game. very entertaining. Beautiful day, seats one row up from the a’s bullpen.

    interesting article on sfgate about nate wanting a trade.: http://www.sfgate.com/giants/article/Giants-Nate-Schierholtz-open-to-trade-3717640.php

    • snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:36 pm

      Nate says that Bochy point blank told him he’s not an everyday player. Apparently Boch didn’t tell him that he’s a once-in-a-blue-moon player. I don’t blame Nate for wanting out, if you read between the lines, and that’s not too hard to read. I hope they accommodate him and get something in return…

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm

      Thanks for sharing ewisco – frequently, I forget or don’t have time to check out the SF Gate, so appreciate it when you “locals” point out an interesting article like this. My opinion is that Nate is like any other competitive ball player – he wants to play. If he said otherwise, I would condemn him. That being said, I appreciate Bochy for being honest with him. Hey, it may be a rude awakening for him, but to date, he has ONLY shown himself to be a bench player. The way you dispel that, is to play BETTER.

      • snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:55 pm

        No disagreement there, Blade. But, it’s hard to play better when you hardly ever play anymore…

      • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:06 pm

        I can cite dozens of players that have had less chances then Nate and took advantage of them. He has had numerous chances and he has blown them (insofar as a starting gig). If I am him, I shut up and I savor – like a glass of water in the desert – each pitch hitting, late inning replacement, and start that he receives.

  42. DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    Theriot’s been so solid & steady that nobody even mentions him anymore…

    • snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:38 pm

      I mentioned him about a week ago and said he was a pro, and was doing pretty much what Freddy would have done, so Freddy wasn’t being missed all that much. If he goes down, the Giants would have some infield issues, no doubt. Now watch him go into a month-long hitting funk…

  43. snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Total no brainer that El Presidente is back. Bochy loves him some Eli and he “knows” the staff. What to watch for is how many games he catches and Posey gets put at 1B. If Belt is put on the shelf even more due to Eli and his wet noodle bat, Belt is in deep Bochy doodoo…

  44. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Whitey could be starting tomorrow depending on when this game ends tonight…….

  45. twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    I think that would be almost certain, but I doubt Buster would play first. If he does, as Snarkk said, Belt might as well see if Nate needs a roomie.

  46. eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    Vogelstrong with a perfect game through 2
    Belt? working his way back to Fresno, raisin capitol of the world.

  47. snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Unless this one goes really really late for some reason, I’d go contrary and say Buster will start as C tomorrow. Then, Eli goes the next game in Philly with Buster at first…

  48. snarkk said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    Stats say Giants should hammer Minor and win this game with Vogy going. Of course, the Giants don’t always hammer guys they should. We’ll see the second time through the LU…

  49. eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    I know this is not a popular opinion, but I think the Tomahawk Chop is the best rally cheer in baseball.
    I just love it

    • zumie said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:40 pm

      Uh, you are correct- it’s not a popular opinion. (grin)

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:43 pm

      Yeah, our Indian friends tend to get offended . . . Ya know, sort of like when we make fun of the “Red Coats.” 🙂

      • eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:52 pm

        My Grandparents on my mothers side were Seminoles
        Go noles!

    • DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:47 pm

      Why not have your friends and family do it while you’re trying to take a crap?

      • eddacker said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:54 pm

        naw, I am too regular for that

        😀

    • Bozo said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:56 pm

      Ed, if you’ve ever been there when they do it, you might have a different opinion. They try to be in sync but the Braves fans (those that show up) just can’t pull it off. It is distracting though.

      • eddacker said, on July 19, 2012 at 2:18 am

        thanks, and I have only heard it on tv. The chop isn’t the bit for me it is the drum chant stolen form original people’s ceremonies. A very positive vibe, meant to mimic heartbeats.

  50. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    Well you know Nate’s at the bottom of the totem pole,when he’s even behind Christan on the depth chart.Nate needs to be moved at the deadline,he has no future left here,he knows it and so do the Giants.

    • DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:53 pm

      He has a future as the back-up clubhouse cancer…

      • Bozo said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:58 pm

        Batta bing, batta boom.

  51. Wilcojoe said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    It’s hard for me to say this since he went to my alma mater, but it’s time for Belt to go.

    • eddacker said, on July 19, 2012 at 2:12 am

      This was so sad, but true to me, I went to bed. Belt has been mentally de-motivated and Bam Bam tried to get him to close his stance to see the ball better, but it looks like his stance is opening up again. (strike two) this slump could easily be strike three for someone with a nice upside.

  52. demp28 said, on July 18, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    Ya think Mike Ivie is available to play 1B? Or David Green?

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:08 pm

      Mike Ivie always cracked me up demp . . . He had an attitude that was bad or at least eccentric. I still haven’t decided which (probably both).

      I remember him during the 1980 season, where he was considered the Giants’ successor at first base to Willie McCovey upon his retirement, but due to an off-season accident with a hunting knife where he sliced part of his fifth finger from his hand, he was unable to perform and became a bench player. Unlike Nate, this space cadet walked away during that season . . . Only a phone call from McCovey convinced him to return and he played out the 1980 season.

      • Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:18 pm

        Hell every guy was supposed to be McCovey’s replacement…Rich.Murray.and.before that Skip”the Albino” James.Like either one of those chumps could ever carry Willie’s jock.

    • Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:11 pm

      Don’t even go there with Fucking David Green.Now that was one of the Giants brainfart trade Jack Clark for that POS who they never could figure out his real age,which was atleast 5 yrs older then they thought.

  53. DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    MVP!!!!!!!!!

  54. DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Another bomb for The Friendly Ghost…

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:40 pm

      Your PR for The Friendly Ghost is having an effect near and far . . . Sir Ed of Great Britain just picked up Casper today in the Flap League.

  55. IH1978 said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Two fuckkng awful ABs by Pagan and Shitholtz keep us from scoring.

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:41 pm

      Another reason why Nate isn’t starting. Boo hoo Nate.

      • Bozo said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:12 pm

        Another reason why he hasn’t been traded.

    • Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:44 pm

      If your gonna be shitty,you might as well be good at it,and Nate is very good at it.

  56. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Right now Nate shoild consider Japan for PT.Cause he might be declined by most teams as even a throw in.

  57. twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    Nate still has some skills to help the right team- he’s not even being used much on defense because the rest of the bench is thin and he’s needed as a PHer.

  58. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    Affeldt throwing nasty stuff tonight.

  59. DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    I am contemplating a blockbuster with Seattle which would send Casper Wells and Ichiro to the Giants for Nate and Belt. I’m sure it needs tweaking, but think about it before you call me crazy.

    • Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:08 pm

      you’d need to throw in a little more to make that deal happen, chief. And you’re not crazy unless you think, ya know, that you’re the actually the Seattle GM……

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:10 pm

      No chance Loo and not only because Ichiro is an institution in Seattle. Wells was traded to Seattle in the Doug Fister deal and hit six home runs with 14 RBI in his first 54 at-bats with Seattle. In short, he was wanted by Seattle because they saw his numbers explode with more playing time in Detroit. Fast forward this year, he has only confirmed their feelings about him.

      If you want a Pilots . . . umm, a Mariner player that is persona non grata, we should try to get Ackley, who has performed 180 degrees opposite from what he did last year.

      • DJLoo said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:17 pm

        Wells wasn’t playing regularly till about a month ago – I think he’s obviously being showcased.
        Ichiro’s not signed for 2013 and might enjoy one last chance to win it all.

      • Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:23 pm

        If a guy has to get *showcased* he’s probably not very good. That’s what I think when I see someone use the word *showcase*.
        Seattle has a bunch of shitty players and no outfielders (besides Ichiro). Wells just got shuffled into the LU out of desperation and he’s staying there because he’s one of their only consistent hitters right now…….

  60. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    It’s gonna be hard for Bochy to sit Posey tomorrow (at first base) the way he’s hitting in Atlanta right now…..

  61. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    If there’s someone due, its Panda. Taking Buster out in the 9th of a tied game? Aggressive, but it may bite Bochy.

  62. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    We’re fucked.

  63. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    Well that backfired pulling Posey,who’s redhot in a.tie game.Now we get the debut of Whitey Ball the rest of the way,Yipeeeee!

  64. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    last time I saw Whitey I remember him not being able to catch the fucking ball from the pitcher very consistently. Let’s see if he’s fixed that.

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:17 pm

      lqtm. Yeah, a small issue, but nevertheless . . . 🙂

  65. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    I don’t have a problem with him taking Buster out, especially if he’s planning on playing him at first base tomorrow. There were no outs and if Blanco stole a bag we’d be in great shape to score…..

  66. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Super pitching job by Affeldt tonight,8outs!

  67. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    plus, Bochy knows this game probably isn’t coming around to Buster’s spot in the LU again…..

    • unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:21 pm

      When Pedro Feliz is catching, then we’ll talk.

  68. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Melky’s catching a lot of shit out there.

    • Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:25 pm

      he should catch shit. He was a fat fuck in Atlanta and now he’s an all star mvp. Their fans are rightly annoyed…….
      Hmmmmmmmmmmm
      Whitey no catchey ball.
      Not surprising…….

  69. blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Dammit Theriot.

  70. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Yikes. Give it away now.

  71. Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    stupid intentional walk. Pastornicky just came back up, he didn’t hit before, he’s probably nervous as hell right now. No fucking WAY would I rather see Lopez pitch to Bourn

    • twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:44 pm

      Made me nervous but RHers .414 BAA

  72. Alleykat said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    So now you pray for extra innings,and Bochy pulls both Posey and Panda.Well OK then.

  73. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Wow. That[s conna cost ;em the game.

    • blade3colorado said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:36 pm

      As Johnny Carson use to say, “Contraire moose breath.” 🙂

      By the by, were you finally able to access your Flap team?

      • unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:38 pm

        Shit, I haven’t tried. Busy with real-world shit.

      • Flavor said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:46 pm

        like what? Blogging at the Flap for the last 30 minutes? lol. It takes 5 seconds to try to log in to the espn site.

  74. unca_chuck said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Woooooooooooooooooooo………………………………….

  75. twinfan1 said, on July 18, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    Struck him out on the worst pitch he threw.


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