A Trade He Wishes He Could Take Back
Anniversary time:
10 years today, Sabes pulled of the reverse-coup: The AJ Trade. Here’s a great recap of the trade at the Hardball Times.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/10th-anniversary-the-a.j.-pierzynski-trade/
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
Pierzynski led to Matheny which led to Molina then Posey and world championships. It was a brilliant move by Sabean. Sort of like the Zito signing but better.
There had been some very unfair and short sighted criticism of the Zito signing. Anyone can make a reasonably accurate evalution of how a player might perform in the first year or two, and there were quite a few ( including me) who expected better results from Zito in the first year, the second year, the 3rd year, 4th, 5th, 6th…Sabean wasn’t thinking in the short term or the medium term, or even the long-ish term, he was thinking “who I can I get who might become servicable in year seven?”
Would I have liked to see him perform better? Sure but I didn’t and still don’t have a problem with the Zito signing.
Serious question- if you *never* had problems with it, what other signing could you possibly have problems with? I think that’s a reasonable question. I genuinely don’t understand how someone could never had a problem with the deal.
Would I have like to see Zito perform better? Yes, I would have as I already stated. Do I think the deal weighed down payroll. Possibly but I also think the Giants could have pushed the payroll higher for quite some time now instead of holding at an arbitrary number like some mid market team while they rake in the dough from sell out after sell out. Do I fault Zito for signing the deal or the Giants for inking it? No, I don’t.
Well, I don’t fault him or anybody for taking money that was offered, and I’ve never suggested otherwise. But if you have no problem with the signing from the team’s perspective, what signing would or do you have a problem with? Really, I’m not understanding how his performance for the vast majority of his time here seems to be a minor concern.
BTW, here are the opening day payrolls since 2000 as per Cott’s:
◾2013: $136,908,777
◾2012: $131,355,298
◾2011: $118,198,333
◾2010: $ 96,277,833
◾2009: $ 82,616,450
◾2008: $ 76,594,500
◾2007: $ 90,219,056
◾2006: $ 90,056,419
◾2005: $ 90,199,500
◾2004: $ 82,019,166
◾2003: $ 82,852,167
◾2002: $ 78,299,835
◾2001: $ 63,280,167
◾2000: $ 53,541,000
I am NOT disrespecting your opinion, I just still don’t really understand it. But it’s nice to see you posting more, and if you missed it- I appreciated your comment on my blog.
Nother topic. MLBTR is reporting that the Giants are interested in Jason Hammel to the point of asking to see his medical records. Talk about aiming low. ERA approaching 5.00. Lifetime not much better. Nor in W-L, hits per inning, or in K’s vs. BBs. Solid mediocrity would virtually be a stretch. On an overall basis he would be perhaps a slight improvement over the 2013 Zito, if that impresses you. Game to game he would not have the highlights, nor would his lows be quite as drastic.
So what’s the thinking here on a prospective low-end #5 starter? Wouldn’t a shot for Surkamp be potentially more upside, to say nothing of being waaaay cheaper at the $6+M Hammel would likely receive? Has Rags weighed in on strong possibility of a reclamation project? Am i missing something here or is this purported move just some kinduva smokescreen?
What good is it for the Giants to ask for the medical charts? Their own medical staff doesn’t know squat about diagnosing an injury.
“What good is it for the Giants to ask for the medical charts?” Because it’s kinda fun looking at all the squiggly lines?
Hopefully this is not true…
Lifetime 49-59 (and I know this is not a great measure of a pitcher…there are 8 other guys on the field behind him). But the lifetime WHIP of 1.440 is high.
Hell, I’d rather see them roll the dice on Vogey for a couple of mil than go this route.
But I am thinking this may just be a smoke-screen to confuse the likes of the Bums, and that on the back-end, the Giants will surprise the hell out of all of us with the signing of Tanaka-san. (And if you believe this…I have some ocean-side property in New Mexico…cheap.)
That’s pretty interesting considering the exchange I had with Dirt.
63-80 W/L 4.62 ERA 1.439 WHIP Zito w/the Giants.
i’m holding out for blanco pill and the groper (who should enjoy south beach) for Stanton and Cishek.
Personally, and hey, it’s just me- but I don’t begin criticizing deals until they actually, you know- happen. It doesn’t seem fair to Sabean. I mean, like, if he’s going to be criticized for dumb deals he hasn’t made, it seems fair to praise him for brilliant deals he didn’t make. So, in that light I want to congratulate him for kicking the tires on all those great free agents who we’re not going to get…
Post of the day, post of the day!! ha ha ha
Twin right again!
Mind bendingly funny. Hey Mike, I got to holler at you again regarding KFP48.
First off, Sandoval is staying put. If he were to go somehow, it would be an unloading of someone whom they are at wit’s end with, so a sell low job all the way. The ChiSox seem like the kind of team that would take the risk. Just maybe in a best case scenario, the return would be a major league ready prospect – they seem to have a couple of these 4/5 starters who logged some time last year – think a 90-92 throwing righty maybe with some Vogelsong ceiling. Are you with me? Then their own sell low guy, Beckham comes along. Yeah, they Giants would have to cobble together third, but they would if Sandoval is injured again anyhow. That’s where I’m coming from. I don’t expect a return of some great prospect in return, just somebody else’s sell low-change of scenery guy.
As for St. Louis, yeah a healthy Garcia would be great, but STL has 3rd base covered with Carpenter and Freese as expendable.
Toodles
There is absolutely no way Sandoval is going anywhere. The Giants need his production and there is no one available to make up for what they would lose.
Foots, nothing you say about this make any sense. You don’t trade for a 4 or 5 starter “prospect”
when there are a dozen or more proven guys available witthout giving up anybody. Are YOU following? And Sandoval has only missed appreciable time due to the hamate injuries- which nobody could possibly attribute to his weight or conditioning- he has not missed the time that those who don’t pay attention seem to think he has. And seeing that he has no more hamate bones to break, I feel pretty confident that that is not likely to be a future issue. As I said before- the feverish attempts to find a way to downgrade the third base position have reached comical levels when we have fans proposing deals that give him away *without* having a replacement *and* receiving in return what we can get without giving up anybody. Finally- tell me who plays second for St. Louis if Carpenter is at third and show me how that’s better than Sandoval at third and Carpenter at second. Again- at least I propose trades that make sense for both teams.
Kolten Wong to second, Carpenter to third. Freese to backup or traded.
You wouldn’t trade for somebody who could eat innings at the back end. A guy like Clayton Blackburn is going to be a back end starter. Edwin Escobar is too. If they were MLB ready, that’s the type of prospect I’m more or less describing.
If you are indeed the champion of air-trades, then I humbly kiss the crown. 😉
Try to pay attention this time- they will most likely get a guy like Arroyo or Haren- someone they can get on a one or two year deal. They *could* also be in on Nolasco if they think he’s a legit 3 (I don’t). Giving away Sandoval (and that’s what it would be)- for a 5th starter “prospect’ and a utility infielder would be idiotic- you actually accidentally touched on it- they have 5th starter prospects- plenty of them. And utility infielders are available in the free agent market.
*If* Sandoval were traded it would it not be for flotsam and jetsam, as you propose. They’d need and would require at least a MLB-ready third basemen and a middle of the rotation starting pitcher. If they couldn’t get that in the trade package he wouldn’t be traded. IMO.
Kissing is unnecessary, a respectful bow will do.
Yeah, why would you not look at all the players that are available. Especially if you have absolutely nothing in your farm system. And the way I look at it, if you look at all the available FA’s and determine that none of them are any better than what you have in your lower levels, then you should go ahead and use what you have!! save some money.
From the last thread re Pete the Cheat.
IMO, he’ll never pay his debt. He was a manager who bet on games. He lied about it for 14 years and only came clean to shill his book. Which in my mind is the cheesiest thing imaginable.
Who’s to say he didn’t bet against his team?
What he did is unacceptable, now and forever. You cannot let gambling get into the equation and affect what is going on in the game. As a mgr., the guy who decides who bats/pitches/fields where and when and every other single strategic move, no.
Pete Rose is lifetime member of Hall of Shame. And I loved the Reds.
When you only bet on your team to win, you are tacitly betting on them to lose when you don’t place a wager. The major concern about players and particularly managers wagering on their own team is about the potential for their wagering affecting their play and/or decision making so as to influence the outcome of the game(s). Seen in that light, not betting on his team to win has a far greater likelihood of influencing the outcome than when he bet for them to win. It’s pretty easy to make decisions that might a lose a game, easier than making decisions that might win a game.
In short- Rose should make the HOF the same day that Jason Hammel does.
Well, to all 3 of you – we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I am all about forgiveness and moving on (as the author of the column and 90% of the comments do). In fact, most polls agree with me as well, e.g.,
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=131909
Glad you guys aren’t on any parole boards. 😉
Steve, I’m all forgiving him if I believed him about anything at all. The author of the article you linked to asks “Did his betting cause Rose to manage differently than he might have otherwise?” He then says he doesn’t believe he did but also says it wouldn’t matter because the rule is unambiguous. I respect the *opinion* that Rose didn’t manage differently because of the betting but I totally disagree that it doesn’t matter. If he managed differently it would amount to throwing games and I suspect that the polls might be different if the question was ” Would you support Pete Rose being inducted into the hall of Fame if you thought that his gambling affected how he managed the games?”
Now- I would give him the benefit the doubt on that were not for the lies he told. It gets back to my first sentence-I don’t believe that his gambling didn’t affect his decision making simply because there’s more reason to doubt his veracity than to trust it. I’m not rigid as some on this- I would support him being in HOF if I believed that he was nothing more than an obsessive gambler and didn’t let his gambling affect his decision making. Finally, here’s the deal: obsessive gamblers are like drug addicts and practicing alcoholics- they are all liars.
I’m putting up the Christmas decorations later this afternoon. Like asking the new widow out on a date at the funeral service. Too soon?
Yes, wait until tomorrow.
Motivation is a funny thing. B-ball coaches deliberately schedule chump teams in non-conference games to help build team confidence in themselves and whatever system they are running. But I applaud those who instead schedule tough competition early in season.
This can also be used as very powerful motivation–Van Derveer can push charges harder every single day after being whomped by UConn. They are unlikely to get much comp in the conference except from Cal, and she has larger goals.
Same for Gottlieb. She has to replace leading scorer and needs newcomers and returners to step up if she wants to beat Stanford again and get back to Final Four. Her team got blasted by another powerhouse and that’s one score she can leave up on the chalkboard.
Re: Hammel. Curious why him. Made 6m last yr. But can’t blame them for looking at all options. No one thought much of Vog or El Gropo when they were signed.
Seems dozen teams are looking for SP and prices are going to be crazy. Three years for Arroyo? Four for Nolasco?
Tanaka: Says no one might get him unless MLB can reach an agreement on posting fee soon.
Latest on Yahoo MLB coverage is that the whole agreement with Japan is headed for the dumpster. They add that Tanaka heading to The Show for next season is a gone deal. Zito’s former mound-mates Hudson and Haren may be the best bets for S.F. on highly compensated one-season deals. Either could be a decent #3 for a season by the Bay.
Re: Panda. I heard on KNBR a passing snippet that Pablo is in Venezuela playing ball and getting in shape on his own. This is against the wishes of the Giants who wanted him to go to Arizona to work out, get in shape, lose weight and get his diet in order. Then, I found this article in the Splash, if you haven’t seen it. Groeschner has only talked with Panda once on the phone since the end of the season. I don’t care what sugar coating the Giants put on this, and they’re not trying to very hard, but this is not a sign of happiness in PandaBaer land. If your employer says go to Arizona so we can supervise your training, and the employer is paying you $8.25 million next year, I think you should go to Arizona…
http://blog.sfgate.com/giants/2013/11/13/sf-giants-pablo-sandoval-throws-a-changeup-on-winter-workout-plans/
Things aren’t going as planned with Sandoval. This is anything but Camp Panda. It’s more camping Panda.
If the relationship goes more south, he could turn into a flotsam and jetsam trade because he’s on the path to becoming MLB flotsam himself.
The last we *know* of his conditioning, he had lost weight and was on a healthy diet. His second half offensively, on the bases, and in the field reflected that. But they’re *less* likely to trade him if he’s not in shape, not more. IMO.
In 2013 he was 3rd to 5th in BA, OBP, OPS, wOBA, BA, slugging, and wRC+ among NL third basemen. Unless he is so fat he can’t walk from it, they’re most likely to bitch and moan and then pencil him into the line up and let him waddle off after 2014.
Whatever he does regardless…..just don’t waddle. Not a good move.
I saw that but the only thing that matters is whether he reports to camp in shape, not what got him there.
Jenny Craig for Men
I forgot where I read this, but Sabean is jizzin’ himself with regard to Pablo’s “walk year.” He believes that a player is always highly motivated to score the nirvana free agent contract in their walk year. Consequently, I believe it is very unlikely that Panda will be jettisoned in a trade next season . . . However, once the season is over – regardless of how Panda performs – he is gone. Essentially, he can’t be trusted and there will be no situation where he is here after next season.
I think whether they him walk will depend on whether he’d go for a 1 or 2 year deal. I don’t buy that they won’t want to keep him under any circumstances. Of course if he does have a big year there’s a good chance he could get a 3 or 4 year deal from an AL club, anyway. ,
Hey he likes his Mom’s cooking! Come on …….first things first!
I maybe gullible but I liked that Pablo wanted to prove he can do this without them “babysitting” him. Frankly think its a positive. Sabwan said we can’t do anything more, its up to Pablo. So we’ll see. With FA on the horizon, I’m betting he comes into camp in great shape.
Henry thinks so, too.
Hoping for the best.
Well, why not?
And I’m hoping there’s still an eclair in the fridge, I’m pretty sure I saw one in September.
Goodnight, Foots. Night all…
Hoping for a peanut butter cheesecake in the fridge. Oh look, there is one!
Not to be a bummer here but I got a lot of friends and loved ones in the Philippines. So far, no one dead but a lot of folks what had their homes destroyed. It’s so weird. I built a huge home there in my ex’s name and we’ve managed to house a couple of families there.
Anything ya’ll can do would be appreciated.
No pressure. I know this is weird and I apologize to Big Flavor for using this blog for personal agendas but it is personal for me. By the way (I write it out because I hate BTW) I love you guys (no pressure) 😉
Any recommendations for aid agencies in Philippines? I’ve made a small donation to Doctors Without Borders and would like to make one to another good agency that is effective at using its resources to help.
Direct Relief and Mercy Corps are some good ones. The Red Cross gets trashed a lot but, they came to my door with hot food after we got flooded. They also out distributed cleaning and medical supplies for those in the need. So I personally like them.
I think this is a pretty good resource for making an informed decision.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/
HOLY SHIT!!! Did ya’ll just see the last shot in the warriors game??!!
Sheeeee—aite!!!
Goodnight, gentlemen (question mark)