A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball

A Route of Ground

Posted in Uncategorized by Flavor on February 21, 2017

One of my all time favorite race horses. Finally, I have become him….


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  1. Bozo said, on February 21, 2017 at 6:35 am

    Er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er.

    Happy 49 er!

  2. willedav said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:44 am

    Some fun facts from B/R on Giants offense last 3 yrs:
    W totals 14-16: 88 84 87
    Runs scored: 665 696 715
    Rank in HRs: 7 12 13 (7 guys in double figures last year most of past 3)
    Rank in BA: 4 1 4
    Rank in OB: 7 1 4
    Rank in SLG: 6 4 11
    Rank in OPS: 6 4 10

    League wide explosion in offense and HRs last year–50 more runs scored than 2014, but W totals really close.
    And yes, it is very cool to look at 2014 on B/R and see the highlight World Series Champions.

  3. chipower9 said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:44 am

    Happy birthday, Flav! Party like it’s 1999!

    Making any plans for the big FIVE-OH, yet?

    Fuck, I cannot remember 50. This June is 60 for me, and it is all anticlimactic…

    • Irish Kevin said, on February 21, 2017 at 12:13 pm

      62 in April! But who is counting.

  4. chipower9 said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:47 am

    Catching up on the weekend threads. It was so cool to see the news from Twin.

    Michael – congrats on the good news, and it was so damned cool to see you still have your twisted sense of humor! Wishing you and Merna the best my friend.

    Hoping to see you post here more frequently.

  5. Flavor said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:48 am

    Yes, Twin’s news was fantastic. Totally unexpected too. Very happy for him.

  6. chipower9 said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:49 am

    I got another letter from Stix over the weekend. All-in-all, he seems to be in pretty good spirits. Thanks to xoot for sharing the court docs when they come available.

    Stix is jonesing bad for some baseball news. He cannot receive mags or clippings from newpapers. All must be photocopied. So, I pulled a number of articles off of CSNBA, and sfgate, and photocopied those. Also copied some portions of “Lindy’s Sports Baseball 2017 Preview” for him.

  7. chipower9 said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:51 am

    I suggest we find a day for a Flapalooza this year. It would be especially cool if we could coordinate getting Twin to the yard with us. If there is interest, I am willing to do the coordinating with Michael (if he is interested) and in picking him up, getting him to the yard, and also back home after the game.

  8. willedav said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:55 am

    The Giants HR numbers have been pretty consistent over last 3 years–last year 130 was 6 less than 2015 and 2 less than 2014. The big difference is where they rank league wise, tumbling from middle of pack to 13th.
    As for steals, their high total last 3 years was 93 in 2015…led by Aoki.
    Last year they stole 76 bags and got caught 36 times, not a great pct. Led by Pagan Span Nunez.

    Specs…stole 5 bags in very limited action. Interesting to note clutch stats provided by Snarkk end of last thread.
    My only red flag on him is lack of pop and worry he might get squeezed by defenses. He only had 4 XBHs, all doubles, in those 105 ABs last year and a slugging pct that was (gulp) worse than Adrianza.
    He got hurt at just the wrong time, just like Williamson did. Hope they keep him around to back up Panik and Crawford.

    • chipower9 said, on February 21, 2017 at 9:19 am

      I saw the numbers of Specs. Thanks, snarkk.

      I am not worried about the dude’s lack of pop/SLG %. He is more a defensive replacement, and a guy you count on to get on base/get a base hit when you need it. I hope like hell he makes the 25, as I think he is a pretty damned good bench guy, overall.

      Also, this team has proven of the last several years that you don’t have to be a big HR-hitting club to win it all. Keep the conga line moving, get some good pitching, and play some above average D, and things seem to work out. Now, with all that said, would I like to see a bopper in LF who can play some D? Fuck yeah, but I don’t think that in and of itself as being critical to the team winning and going deep in the post-season.

  9. zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 9:15 am

    Happy birthday, BF!

    Kevin Garnett with some harsh words about AAU basketball, all those kids on off-season travel squads, playing year-round ball, and how it’s ultimately hurting the NBA.
    ““Our league now is at a point where you have to teach more than anything. AAU has killed our league. Seriously. I hate to even say this, but it’s real,” Garnett said. “From the perspective that these kids are not being taught anything. They have intentions and they want things but the way they see it is not how our league works. You earn everything in this league. You’re not entitled to anything. And it’s more entitlement than anything.”

    • willedav said, on February 21, 2017 at 10:28 am

      Agree wholeheartedly. I see kids who play AAU in another context and wonder wtf are they learning?

      AAU is mostly star driven, by coaches who are out to win at all costs and drive up their own value ( all about money and shoe deals) and prestige.
      They do this to parents by touting D-1 contacts and kids they alone can place at higher levels. Teaching the game ain’t happening and imo they often do more harm than good especially to expectations of kids and parents.

      I tell most parents, year round isn’t good anyway, but working a few days a week during summer or spring on conditioning (cardio and strength training plus stretching and flexibility) and fundamentals of ball handling and footwork more important for development and getting to next level of skill.

      • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 11:50 am

        It drives me, and all old folks like me, nuts when NBA guys can’t even run a 3-on-2 or even a 3-on-1 fastbreak right. The younger players today are all thinking ally-oop in that situation, and if they get turnovers on half of their fastbreaks, they don’t seem to care, as long as they get some cool ally-oop dunks along the way. How many of us can remember Magic Johnson ever messing up a 3-on-2? I’m sure it probably happened once in a great while, but it sure is hard to remember it ever happening.

      • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 11:55 am

        I think those two years in the Big-10 helped Magic a lot. He was already super-talented; but he built in some more fundamentals to go with it, and the sky was the limit. Or Jordan having a couple of years of Dean Smith’s boring but fundamentally solid teaching, also.

      • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 12:09 pm

        One of the ironies of the NBA is that the Spurs have won 5 championships playing basically boring fundamental basketball, and no one really likes them other than their fans. (sad trombone) 🙂

  10. twinfan1 said, on February 21, 2017 at 10:43 am

    Happy Birthday, Craig. If you want us to get along this time- it’s easy, agree with me and everything will be fine. I plan on making some very very great comments about Buster, Belt, Freddie Douglass- Freddie is an example of somebody who has done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, Just terrific.

    • chipower9 said, on February 21, 2017 at 11:48 am

      lqtm – Thanks, Donald, er…Michael. Seriously hope we see you here more frequently, Twin.

    • Irish Kevin said, on February 21, 2017 at 12:15 pm

      Yes the voice of reason is back, and glad or have you!!

    • Flavor said, on February 21, 2017 at 3:37 pm

      solid gold, Twin

  11. unca_chuck said, on February 21, 2017 at 1:02 pm

    Yeah, Freddie had a great OBP but couldn’t hit the long ball.

  12. Macdog said, on February 21, 2017 at 1:50 pm

    Happy birthday Big Flavor — and many (Matt) Moore!

  13. zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 3:24 pm

    Mike DeCourcy, of the Sporting News, posted a long “counter-point” to Garnett’s comments. Here’s part of the article:

    “Garnett certainly is intelligent enough to understand that when he talks about poorly-trained players entering the league, he was the harbinger for all of them. He was the first American player for more than two decades to join the NBA directly from high school, and every preps-to-pros and one-and-done prospect since had his example to follow.

    If players act entitled, it’s because they are. Washington point guard Markelle Fultz has been hearing all winter he will become the No. 1 pick in the 2017 NBA Draft even though UW might not win 10 games. N.C. State point guard Dennis Smith will be chosen not long afterward. His college coach just got fired because of the team’s poor performance.

    It’s not AAU basketball that’s leading these players to be “entitled,” and it’s not the college game, either. It’s the NBA. That’s the level at which players aspire to be, and getting there in style no longer requires a great deal more than abundant talent.

    As much as Garnett stood as an example to players seeking the quickest route to the league, this is far less to blame for that contagion than the league’s enduring addiction to the rookie salary cap. It seemed like such a clever idea to fix the wages of players entering the league to reduce holdouts and avoid monstrous entry-level contracts. But it also destroyed the incentive for players to enter the draft when they were more fully formed and capable of commanding high-dollar deals. And it reduced the risk for teams to gamble on pure potential.

    Before the rookie cap, players in the early 1990s commonly remained in college basketball for multiple seasons to assure they were ready for the league’s elite competition and prepared to deliver value on contracts that paid them roughly three times as much as today’s rookies.

    There always was the risk a player signed to one of those deals would become a bust. Now, NBA teams invest far less in their rookies — and get far less in return. From 1992-1994, 27 of the 30 players who were top-10 draft picks averaged double-figure scoring as rookies. From 2015-2017, it was only seven.”

    • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 3:26 pm

      I see DeCourcy’s point, the NBA and AAU share some blame, but both guys are basically agreeing that a bunch of players come into the NBA these days not knowing the fundamentals of the game very well, and it doesn’t serve the game well.

      • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 3:31 pm

        Or the players are one-sided. Cousins has solid big-man skills on offense, with terrific footwork. But he’s kind of ragged on defense. He reaches in for steals a lot, and gets silly fouls that you don’t want your big man getting. And these are some of the calls that he’s always griping to the officials about. But none of Cousins’s coaches could get him to stop the reaching-in fouls. A big man should never be reaching in, trying to slap the ball away for steals.

      • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 3:34 pm

        Draymond drives me a little nuts with those kinds of fouls, too. He such a great player, he doesn’t need those kinds of fouls.

      • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 3:38 pm

        When I coached youth basketball for a few years, I would tell players who were whining to me that they got called on a certain foul, even though they didn’t touch the guy: “The ref called that foul because you were doing something that was bad fundamentals, and the ref is punishing you for the bad fundamentals. Blocking the shot from behind (hardly ever works without the foul call), or a big man who didn’t get the offensive rebound, trying to reach-in and steal the ball, instead of getting back on defense.

  14. wilcojoe said, on February 21, 2017 at 4:44 pm

    Happy 49er Craig!

  15. twinfan1 said, on February 21, 2017 at 5:36 pm

    Have to admit that I haven’t watched even 5 minutes of basketball this season. The postseason is so long that I don’t see any purpose in watching the regular season unless we’re in a close race with 10 or so games to go. Too many blow outs, too many “touch” fouls, In short, I don’t much like the game anymore. How many games did the Warriors win last year? 70? That’s absurd. Hell, they should spot the other guys 10 points.
    See, they didn’t cure me of everything.

  16. zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    Former Kings first round pick Jimmer Fredette scored 73 points in a game the other night….in the Chinese Basketball Association.
    There’s a Chinese Basketball Association. Who knew?

    • Macdog said, on February 21, 2017 at 6:03 pm

      Stephon Marbury has become a legend playing in China.


    • PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on February 21, 2017 at 6:43 pm

      The Chinese are mad about basketball. Yao Ming opened that up. Living on university campuses in the past, I can tell you that the outdoor b-ball courts were more crowded with students than the classrooms…. I would sometimes join pickup games with some students I knew well. I never lasted long, they ran me off the court…. fast little fuckers…

  17. Flavor said, on February 21, 2017 at 6:33 pm

    Who are all these people that are outraged at the pace of an mlb baseball game? Why do they want to speed it up? This is lunacy.

    • PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on February 21, 2017 at 6:44 pm

      Agree. No clocks in baseball. Ever.

    • djloo27 said, on February 21, 2017 at 6:47 pm

      The biggest thing slowing down the game now is all the pitching changes. I can remember 8 man pitching staffs and never more than 10. That and the extra commercial time between innings. When stealing bases was big, you could go crazy from all the “pick-off’ attempts or the half ass lobs to first that supposedly held the runner close. What a crock o’ shit that concept was…

      • twinfan1 said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:14 pm

        Bochy doesn’t help things, he takes like 5 minutes to get to the mound- and that’s when he ” trots” out there. I can take a nap between pitching changes and not miss a pitch.

      • snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:17 pm

        IMO Bochy’s switching pitchers late in games was out of control late last season. He had no trust in just about all of them, so he just relied on the righty/lefty book approach constantly. AKA “match ups”. When Sept call-ups expanded the Pen to nearly an infinite supply of arms, it got insane…

      • djloo27 said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:29 pm

        Or taking out a guy who was going well just for match-ups’ sake..

      • twinfan1 said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:37 pm

        In Bochy’s defense, this wasn’t a very good pen. Smith was forced into a loogy role with Javy so inconsistent. Will could have been used in Affeldt’s role. I also think he caused some of Casilla’s problems. He kept throwing him out there when he was clearly struggling. I know that Bochy was trying to show confidence in him but at certain point it seemed like punishment. When he faced Lamb that last time, you could almost see what the result would be.

  18. PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on February 21, 2017 at 6:58 pm

    Yeah, I say “no clock” in baseball, but I agree, Loo, all the pitching changes, often driven by left-right matchups that seem to never matter much, could be regulated. There already are limits to some things: only 2 coaching visits to the mound per inning without lifting the pitcher, etc. But really, except for you east-coasters who must suffer into the very late hours of the night while paying attention to your west coast team, I think most of us like the leisurely pace, kind of like enjoying a frosty glass of fresh lemonade on a summer afternoon…. huh. Make that a frosty ale….

    • djloo27 said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:07 pm

      Does a reliever really need 8 warm-up pitches when he comes in? I would cut that to 4 or even 2 just to acclimate himself. If he ain’t ready, he shouldn’t be brought in.

      I wonder if you’re allowed to have more than 2 guys warming up in the pen at the same time.
      I’ve never seen it…

      • snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:14 pm

        Agree with that. The 7th or 8th inning guys have generally been throwing in the Pen a lot before they come in. They need 8 more pitches? Or the starter — he needs 8 pitches per inning in a July night in Hotlanta to warm up again? Take 4 and move onto live action. A complete game means that could be up to 72 warm up pitches. A full season means maybe 1500 or more inter-inning warmup tosses for a starter. That’s a lot…

  19. snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:06 pm

    When the Dubs become just another squad in a few years, and they will as Curry and company decline or leave, I’ll go back to not watching much NBA. Because most of it is unwatchable during the reg season, and usually at least the first round of playoffs. Second round, too, in the East…

  20. snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:10 pm

    Baseball is fine pretty much as is. Keep the replay reviews to 90 seconds, tops. If you can’t figure it out by then, then the “ruling on the field” stands. But, stop this stepping out of the box nonsense. They still do it, though supposedly there is a strike penalty, I believe, for doing it. Some keep one foot in, and do the splits with the other foot out of the box. Adjusting hat, helmet, jock strap and especially gloves is just out of control. It’s nonsense. Stay in the box and let’s go. Bonds did very little of that Nervous Nellie crap. He stood in there and then raked…

    • djloo27 said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:13 pm

      Panda’s OCD ritual used to drive me nuts, but I still miss him…

      • Flavor said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:58 pm

        I don’t miss Panda. I don’t miss anyone. I guess I miss how Timmy and Panda made me feel as a fan back in the moment. But I don’t miss them

      • snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:40 pm

        I miss Timmy.
        Big time.
        And, I don’t mind saying so.
        2008-2010 with that little dude was magical.
        When they have the 10-year reunion, no doubt he will get the biggest ovation.
        2010 was like 1981 with the Niners, only way better…

    • snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:19 pm

      The all-time crazy level of that stuff that I saw was “Nomah”. If I ever happened to watch a RSox game, when he’d come up I’d want to throttle the guy for basically taking his gloves off and putting them back on between every pitch…

      • djloo27 said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:23 pm

        Yeah, the baseball version of Ed Norton’s piano playing ritual…

  21. Flavor said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:57 pm

    Lots of people on twitter saying the commercials are the problem but I don’t think that’s it. Sure there are more commercials than in 1972 but the #1 difference between back then (game lasting 2:09) and now (game lasting 3 hours) is the pitching changes. That seems rather obvious, right?

  22. Flavor said, on February 21, 2017 at 7:59 pm

  23. snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:51 pm

    Speaking of Timmy.
    The other day I was thinking of him, and whether there was anybody remotely like him in modern baseball history. I think the closest guy was “the Bird” Fidrych, with the Tigers. Though Timmy lasted far longer, I think the analogy fits. Both had unusual deliveries, yet really effective. The Bird was more eccentric, talked to the ball and all that, but the uniqueness of the dude and the success are comparable, except in time of service and performance in big time playoff games, where Timmy takes that hands down. Both beloved by their fanbase…

    • djloo27 said, on February 21, 2017 at 8:58 pm

      Fuck yeah!

      • snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 9:03 pm

        Good times, Great times…

      • zumiee said, on February 21, 2017 at 9:51 pm

        He won’t make the Hall of Fame, but three rings, two Cy Youngs, and two no-hitters, are a combination that would get a knowing dude head-nod from players like Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson.

      • snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 10:04 pm

        I’d put Timmy at his best (game 1 vs. Braves, 2010 playoffs) against either of those guys at their best. I would bet the Giants in that game…

  24. twinfan1 said, on February 21, 2017 at 9:35 pm

    See you guys another time. I’m just not into talking sports much. Thanks for the warm welcome, though. I appreciated it.

    • Flavor said, on February 22, 2017 at 5:20 am

      so coming from someone who doesn’t do small talk and doesn’t like talking to strangers, can I ask you, what DO you talk about?

      • twinfan1 said, on February 22, 2017 at 8:53 am

        . Right now, I don’t feel like talking about much at all. I don’t expect that you will understand this but after the initial feelings of exhilaration when the doctor said that I was cured, there’s a ” so,what now?” thing that set in. After so many years of fighting this, I really see how much adrenaline it took. So now I’m pretty much wasted. And depressed. OK?

      • Flavor said, on February 22, 2017 at 4:04 pm

        Hey, I wasn’t downing on you I was seriously interested in the answer to the question. As I said, I don’t do small talk and I don’t really talk to strangers much. When I do talk, it’s often about sports. We have a lot in common from that stand point.
        I’m not pushing you to post here, as always there is an open invitation. And your info about post-cure is very insightful and sheds a lot of light on where you’re at right now. Thanks for that.

  25. unca_chuck said, on February 21, 2017 at 9:36 pm

    Timmy brought about the sea change for the Giants from the death march of the Bonds era to the young guns era and the championships.

    Yeah, I miss Timmy.

    And Chuck will agree, as we were both at that game in Colorado where Bochy made a pitching change per batter for 6 straight guys and the Giants blew a 6-2 lead. I told all the Denverites I was with that we were going to lose.

  26. PaulinAsia Banh Bao said, on February 21, 2017 at 9:57 pm

    Ah, Timmy. I still occasionally watch that Youtube video, “The Last 27 Outs” of the 2010 Series. It was all about Timmy (and Edgar’s 3-run HR)…. At one point, ending an inning on a strikeout, you can hear Joe Buck just say “So good….” ….

  27. snarkk said, on February 21, 2017 at 10:40 pm

    Paul, you got me going. I just watched some highlights of game 6 2010 NLCS vs. Phills. Friggin Wilson walked 2 guys in the 9th, which I forgot about. The usual Beard heart attack inning. Men on 1st and 2nd, two down, 3-2 to Howard, and The Beard throws the best slider of his life for the called 3rd strike to win the Pennant. It was a strike, no doubt, and damn near unhittable. I dunno, for me, that moment is the all timer, up there with the Series game 5 win. Cuz, Phills were heavy favorites, and this one led to the first championship. I had a feeling then and there that the Gyros had a real shot this time to win it all…

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