Weird First Day of the Winter Meetings
Lots of tweets. Not a lot of action. Most of these rumors have me shaking my head sideways. I feel like the Giants are in the cat bird’s seat if they do NOTHING at all. This is like watching the start of the Running of the Bulls in Spain. I’m watching safely from above from some hotel roof. Down below are scenes like this one:
For those of you unclear on the metaphor, you see the bull is the free agent and the two dudes….oh never mind.
There is some major insanity about to go down in the free agent world. Albert Pujols will be 32 next month. And he’s got a 10(!) (t-e-n) year deal on the table from the clueless Marlins……CJ Wilson has a SIX year offer from what could be multiple teams–mark my works, CJ Wilson will be the *Barry Zito* of this free agent class. Book it. Mark Freaking Beuhrle has 14 teams interested in him. I would be BUMMED if Sabean signed Beurhle to even a 2 year deal. Beurhle sucks, he’s an innings eater at best but could probably fill our #5 slot adequately…..J-Roll’s agent got pissed off and shut down a meeting when the Phillies continued to balk at his 5 year mandate for a contract……
Meanwhile, Ned Coletti has cornered the market on below average utility infielders. Seriously, what type of team is he trying to field next year? Is he planning on Kemp wheelin’ it big in the outer outfield, Ethier play rover and 5 underwhelming infielders scurrying around covering the rest of the defense? That dude has lost his mind………..
Sabean simply can’t do anything that would come close to the madness I’ve listed above. At worst he signs some sh!tty utility guy for a year (that is, assuming one gets past Ned). Personally, I’m going to have fun sitting back and watching the insanity unfold. I take great pleasure in watching other teams make dumb ass mistakes. Whether it’s the Nationals signing Werth to a 7 year deal or the Angels trading FOR Vernon Wells, other teams idiocy can only directly or indirectly help the Giants…..
Retro Action. Baby.
_______________________________________________________
It’s Sunday, June 17th 1979 and the Cardinals are in town. Bad Ass names abound in their starting line up. Yet we still beat them 7-4. Clark ripped his 11th on the year and McCovey went 3-4 running his average to an impressive .291 (he would end the year at .249). This win nudged us to 4.5 games out of first place, the last time we would be this close the rest of the season. The wheels fall off pretty good in 1979…….
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
might be more fiction than fact, but even back then Giants were infamous for a June Swoon. Loved Lou Brock, speed guy with some pop. Templeton, of course, was dealt off after some questionable behavior for the Pads light hitting til then Ozzie Smith, and the Cards were soon rolling on that turf. How many other teams in ’79 had it? Cincy, Hou, Pit, Philly…Must of been hell to play on that outdoors in summer.
Given the health issues LA had on the IF last year, Colletti has to figure he needs more depth. What doesn’t make sense is why he let Carroll go–I wish SF had picked that guy up, he can play multiple spots (tho SS probably isn’t his best) and hit for avg. Part of me hopes Juan Uribe isn’t done and has a better season; just not against us.
It was interesting to read that Lincecum possibly wants an 8-year deal. Back of my mind after seeing him to keep asking for shorter deals was that he wants to head home when he hits free agency.
Hopefully we can split the difference and land-him at 6 years, buying out 4 of his free agent years and Cain for 5 years after this last year of his deal. So they both are signed for at least the next 6 years…I hope they may take a little less up front to get through the next two years of Zito so we can add one more bat this year and maybe a more substantive bat next year.
I thought it was the opposite: SF wanted to talk about multiple years deal, and Lincecum camp did not want to go more than two. Pablo is also arb eligible along with some others. Vibe I’m getting from Sabes is don’t get your hopes up for an impact player at any positiion, based on payroll limitations….whether self imposed or not.
I’ve got Mike Tyson’s autograph. From a Single-A game in the early ’70s. That may have been the night I got my first foulball at a Single A game. I was in the concession area when the foulball came bouncing along. Quite a thrill. Later that night, an older kid, a bully, took it from me. Bummer.
As for the rest of story- I heard that guy later in life ended up in prison. No surprise. The kind of kid that would steal another kid’s foulball is on a course for a lifetime of criminal activity.
I thought you were referring to Mike Tyson ending up in jail.
We seem to be more crowded at First base than we are in the outfield these days, do you think the Giants willing to trade young position players as opposed to pitching? Would you trade Belt?
I’m thinking the Gs might be looking at 1B for Buster in the near future and what would Belt get us now. Could they pry McCutchen away from the Pirates? If Pittsburgh isn’t able to lock him up he’ll be arb eligible next year and they don’t usually like to spend.
What about Pill? Could you get BJ Upton from the Rays with a package? TB has that guy Jennings coming up and might be looking to unload Upton before his FA year. Not to mention the Rays don’t have anyone at First, nobody.
Instead of adding Affeldt or Lopez in a package what about Runzler?
Here’s a wild trade idea: Would you trade The Panda for HanRam?
I wouldn’t. Ramirez can’t play Third and SS at the same time. I’d trade Belt for him though.
Even though the Fish don’t really need a 1B but someone at Third, I’m still keeping Panda.
Take the cannoli, leave the Panda
Unthinkable.
HanRam is a bad seed….stay away…
Sabean said they would probably play Panda behind the plate when Buster has a full day off, and the #2 catcher when Buster plays first base. And as of now, that #2 catcher is Stewart…
As to Linececum- his camp wants the 8.
where did he say that. i’m not questioning it, I just haven’t read or heard that. And it’s a wee bit important to know who will be playing C when Buster is at first base.
Last night on Comcast.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/blogs/the-cove/Buster-Posey-First-Base-Pablo-Sandoval-Catcher-2012-135070168.html
The part about “Now whether that happens I don’t know but it’s been discussed.” was either edited out or I didn’t hear it.
The statement about Stewart came from Shea, not Sabean.
“”On the days Buster needs a day off period and wouldn’t be a first baseman or catcher, Pablo could catch [Barry] Zito starts to get more offense in the lineup and he’s open to that,” Sabean said, per Jaymee Sire of Comcast Bay Area. “Now whether that happens I don’t know but it’s been discussed.”
Since he says Pablo would only catch when Buster has a full day off, the #2 catcher would be in when Buster plays first.
Panda catching came directly from Sabean, I believe it was Shea who said Stewart would be the back up catcher. Baggarly reports that Eli is amost certainly a non-tender. They’re also considering Burriss as the back up or platoon guy with Mario Crawford. Baggs also says Kepp can’t play SS ( or even second adequately)..Torres might stay if he’d take a million or so..
“Jon Heyman of SI.com reports that Tim Lincecum’s representatives rejected a four-year extension offer from the Giants a few months ago and told the team they wanted eight years.
Heyman says Lincecum is also OK with a one- or two-year deal. In other words, he either wants to cash in big now with a really lengthy deal or go ahead and play out his final two arbitration years before seeking a monster deal in the free agent market. The 27-year-old right-hander is likely to net $18-20 million in arbitration. Dec. 4 – 12:29 pm et”
Source: Jon Heyman on Twitter
Holy Shit
Four and eight – quite a difference between the two camps. ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING WAY LINCECUM GETS 8 YEARS, MUCH LESS 7, 6 OR 5. This is exactly what Flav was talking about in his opening monologue (and to a lesser extent Twin the other day, when he said 2 years). Thank you very much Mr. Lincecum – we will roll the dice and do the two year deal.
Frickin’ insanity . . . I hope Giants management and Sabes hold firm.
You would not do a 6 year deal Blade for a two time cy young? I would do it in a heart beat, he is the heart of the team still…
I’ve always kinda felt this but I am officially accusing Hue Jackson of being a dumbass. He’s throwing his support behind McClain? They better not find that gun or it’s probably McClain’s ass. Jack is gonna look pretty bad (and stupid) if any of these accusations get confirmed. And for who? McClain? He’s barely even a passable line backer, it’s not like he’s a super star…..
I wonder if they conducted a gunpowder residue test on McClain?
In Alabama, who knows? It’s not that difficult, if it’s not too long after the incident, to take a swab of the hands and you can tell with some basic testing available to most police departments whether the dude recently fired a gun…
The Raiders are starting to look like the deck of the Titanic and Hue is rearranging the chairs. There’s a palpable sense of desperate cluelessness behind what Hue and the team is doing now and their chances of being fucked over by Tebow and the godddamned stupid Broncos and missing the playoffs are looking pretty good right. now.
Tim Dierkes of MLB Trade Rumors, just posted this,
“The Giants are trying to trade infielder Jeff Keppinger, outfielder Andres Torres, and reliever Ramon Ramirez, tweets Danny Knobler of CBS Sports. They’re planning to keep lefty Jeremy Affeldt. ESPN’s Buster Olney says there’s a strong feeling by other teams Torres will be non-tendered. If so, the Giants may not be able to get much for him. Torres was the second-most valuable center fielder in baseball in 2010, based on FanGraphs’ wins above replacement.
Keppinger, Torres, and Ramirez are all arbitration eligible, and MLBTR projects salaries in the $2.3-2.7MM range for each.”
Baggarly discusses that about Torres, which is why it’s speculated they’d make him a take or leave it offer before arb. After all, it’s pretty likely that whoever plays LF will need late inning replacement. He’s certainly worth more to us than he’d fetch in a trade.
Agree. I have a hard time believing that Torres apparently is considered expendable after the fantastic year he had in 2010. We’re not exactly talking a lifetime ago . . . I hope the Giants reconsider and keep him on the roster.
Conversely, Ross is actually thinking he is worth 3 years someplace. What a joke.
agreed, offer him $2 mill and be done with it…
Baggs is doing an online chat right now that’s pretty interesting
How do you access it Flav?
try this
http://mobile.coveritlive.com/mobile.php?option=com_mobile&task=viewaltcast&altcast_code=c159232d27
Gracias
If Huff plays LF we will absolutely need late inning defensive help. Torres would fit that bill perfectly…….
Sounds like Willingham is out per Baggs.
I just asked him who the Giants “piece” would be in a trade for Jed Lowrie (which I proposed long before (a year ago) Flav ever thought of it the other day :-))?
He answered my question:
11:19
Andrew Baggarly – Sabean mentioned to CSN Bay Area’s Jaymee Sire that there’s been discussions of Pablo Sandoval catching once a week. Maybe Zito’s starts. But it’s only in the roundtable stage, and we’ve been to this rodeo before. The idea tends to die whenever the Giants mention it to Sandoval and he balks at it. No reason for me to think it’ll be any different this time. So I’d assume Hector Sanchez or Chris Stewart. The Giants really should carry three catchers on the opening-day roster.
11:17
[Comment From Big Flavor ]
Has Sabean indicated who would play catcher when Buster is playing first base? Panda?
This fucking idiot Balrog is asking stupid questions like . . .
[Comment From Balrog ]
Brett Pill is one of the greatest prospects the Giants have developed since Willie McCovey, do you see him hitting 3rd or 4th for the Giants next season?
Andrew Baggarly – Balrogs are supposed to reign terror under the earth, not above it. No reason to lock up a closer who had a drop in velocity, a receding K rate, a higher walk rate and an iffy elbow for the last two months of the year.
Wilson hates to be asked about injuries. He refuses to answer most of the time. He likes to believe he’s superhuman. But his health will be a massive topic this spring. For now, Giants fans can take some small comfort that both Lew Yocum and James Andrews prescribed rest and rehab instead of surgery.
11:29
Andrew Baggarly – And Todd Linden shoots laser beams out of his eyes, Daniel Ortmeier is half man, half stallion and Lance Niekro can stop time.
Pill is 27, he’s been designated off the roster once already and he’s been in the position of needing to prove himself every year. Last season, he did a terrific job to put himself more forcefully on the map. He’ll compete with Brandon Belt for time at first base. You know, one of those spirited, “let the best man win” competitions in spring training. Like when John Bowker beat out Nate Schierholtz…only to be replaced a few weeks into May. Or Emmanuel Burriss beating out Kevin Frandsen…only to find himself back in the minors.
Pill has a short, simple swing and an even-keel attitude that the coaching staff really likes. Those are all points in his favor to win a larger role in 2012.
11:38
[Comment From Balrog ]
Brett Pill is one of the greatest prospects the Giants have developed since Willie McCovey, do you see him hitting 3rd or 4th for the Giants next season?
Balrog – Pill will be batting leadoff and playing short stop. Next question.
I cut and pasted his question about Brian Wilson incorrectly . . . I’ll paraphrase – Balrog asked if the Giants were going to offer Brian Wilson a 60 million dollar contract over 5 years? LMAO.
And, Wilson will be batting fourth and playing CF. Melky will move over to CF when Brian comes in to close.
Thanks for playing, Mr. Balrog. You’ve been a wonderful guest.
sound slike this dunce has been smoking a lot of SF Gate ganja….
Yeah, really off the wall . . . Surprised that Baggs was that nice to him.
Lots of good info from Baggs though . . . Sounds like the Giants shopping list is bereft of any big ticket items, much less medium size either. Hahaha. Doesn’t sound like Willingham is coming here, so it follows that Crisp is beyond our means too. We might be able to afford Hairston’s sister, if she plays ball.
Wow, good stuff, guys. Burriss, a fav of a few of Baggs bloggers, sucks. He’s not even a good defensive player, esp at SS.
One of the other regs over there is the Wisdom Cow guy, who says SF should continue to draft pitching and then trade for FA bats (Cain for Fielder proponent I imagine) that otherwise wouldn’t come here. Which works great if you can dump a prospect for a Freddy Sanchez, but while a Cain or a Wilson would bring a lot to your LU, how do you replace them?
Look at SF rotation now behind the Big 3: Vogs (imo very limited shelf life), Surkamp, Zito. You trade one of the Big 3 and you are talking 90 plus starts for the above. No thanks, vaca loca All teams draft pitchers high–it’s just a small fraction that develop into the elite types SF has now and remain healthy and effective.
I think the MLB Trade Rumors had Cuddyer being offered a 3 year deal at $25 mill, so out of our ballpark and probably what Willingham is looking for. That would also be the most I would pay Beltran…so doubt Beltran settles for that as well.
Interesting comments about Panda playing third once a week, dont they then keep Keppinger so that he fills in at third? I guess Fontenot can play there as well.
Would seem to me that Affeldt and his $5 million is the one you trade instead of Ramirez. I would suspect Yanks, Red Sox, White Sox and Rays all would all be after a proven guy like Affeldt and clears a bit more room for us.
If our current payroll is around $120 mill and you subtract $5 for Affeldt and management is willing to push to $130 mill, would give us the ability to sign/trade for decent bat and have some manuverability for a mid-season acquisition. I am still high on Quentin for whatever reason. Think he would be a good fit at ATT. Can Affeldt and Runzler land Quentin? Quentin was expected to make just about $6 mill this year in his last year before free agency.
Also if we have $10 million in potential payroll space, why would they Giants not try and pursue that Japanesse shortstop? Or the new Cuban Cespedes….
I totally agree that you trade Affeldt instead of Ramirez. Besides saving $ you would probably get more for Affeldt AND you don’t lose a valuable RH pitching in the bullpen. Keeping both Lopez AND Affeldt is a little redundant anyway.
Not going to happen though per Baggs,
11:49
[Comment From Tony ]
Why does Sabean want to keep Affeldt so badly? With the poor LH reliever market, Affeldt should fetch a lot in return and free up salary to sign a Beltran.
11:50
Andrew Baggarly – This is his line of thinking: The Giants are committed to the pitching model. They know they can win that way. (Look at how many games they won despite scoring the fewest runs in baseball.) They also know they’ll need to win a majority of their games by three runs or fewer. Affeldt pitches in most of those games. So he’s viewed as a necessary piece.
but Lopez is now the more valuable arm. I probably should not have added Runzler in a trade idea, but I can see Runzler being long lefty in the bullpen. Affeldt really is redundant at his price…
No to BJ Upton trades (he was awful last year in a hitter’s league), Brown should be starting by 2013…
Regarding Brown, Baggs said this . . .
11:07
Andrew Baggarly – No effect, really. You won’t see the Giants sign another center fielder to a six-year contract that would block Brown. Then again, they won’t give a six-year contract to anyone.
Brown will start at Double-A and could be a big league contributor at some point in 2012 — maybe before rosters expand in September. That’s what Bruce Bochy said yesterday.
Per Baggs . . .
11:05
Andrew Baggarly – Willingham has enough interest to get multiple years and maybe close to $10 million per. The Giants can’t fit that in their budget, given they have 13 arbitration-eligible players and some of them will be very expensive. (See the blog post I just filed a few minutes ago).
Ditto for Michael Cuddyer, who reportedly has a three-year, $25 million offer from the Twins on the table.
Affeldt is too valuable for what they can get. Love having two top lefties in the pen.
They need two LHers in the pen. And I’m not ready trust Runzler quite yet. RH relievers are growing on trees. Two top LHers like Affeldt anf Lopez are gold.
“Brown will start at Double-A and could be a big league contributor at some point in 2012 — maybe before rosters expand in September. That’s what Bruce Bochy said yesterday.” That’s what I said a month or more ago. Exactly.
If Tim’s people want 8 years, it means they don’t think he’ll last 8 years. No way I’d go more than 4- then we’d have all of his productive years. They won’t do that of course, so enjoy him for the next two years, and worry about it then.
I’m glad GH isn’t the Giants GM . . . “You would not do a 6 year deal Blade for a two time cy young? I would do it in a heart beat, he is the heart of the team still…”
NO FUCKING WAY. Thank you for your service Timmie, don’t let the door hit ya in the ass.
Just for “shit and giggles” Giant Head, I’m interested in what you would give him for those 6 years? He will likely get $18-19 million in arbitration for this year (By the by, the Giants control him for 2 more years through 2013) . . . Based upon $18.5 million, for 6 years that comes to $111 million . . . and again, that’s only at his likely salary for this year. Do the math.
Sabean will not do an 8 year deal for Tim. IF they were going to give someone a deal like that, it would be Matt.
Why? Matt’s 6’4, 240, and strong. for all of Timmy’s mechanics, they aren’t likely to throw that many years at Tim. They’ll just have to wait and see what happens after 2013 and let the (diamond) chips fall where they may.
I don’t think Matt will be that demanding though. He’ll want 5 years.
It’s a bleep’in shame.
Unfortunately that’s where the mkt is. Verlander and Hernandez got 5 yrs. This chump Wilson will get 5.
And the G’s don’t have Wheeler to plug in there in a couple of yrs.
Seems their intent to keep Matt and Tim and hopefully plug in the young kids coming up making the minimum.
The 8 yrs is like his asking for 18m his first yr of arb. G’s offered 8 if I remember correctly and they settled on 10 and 13.
LMAO…..Gamer Rowand looking for a team,Called Philly they said NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!
He must have wanted 8 years too.
Yeah Blade.He wants 8 yrs and a picture of his mangled face on the CF wall.
Thought-provoking post, Magnus. A voice of sanity crying out in the wilderness of blogosphere hysteria (note the John the Baptist reference; it’s Advent). I was starting to buy in to some of the mania of DO SOMETHING DO SOMETHING BIG AND FLASHY AND COSTLY AND IT WILL BE BETTER THAN NOTHING! Thank you, o flavorescent guardian of the SDG.
BLEEP all the fuss. Lets drink a cold one now.
Pawlie, have you been following the NY Times series of articles on Derek Boogaard? Thought provoking.
Mike & Mike on ESPN this morning wisely brought up Tom Hicks or whatever the former Rangers owner was called. Spent like a drunken sailor on shore leave, not least on A-Rod. Then bankrupt. Could happen to Jeffrey Loria and Friends. What’s happens if they average 23,700 in their new stadium, instead of the current 19,000. What happens w/o PITCHING? Jayson Stark went so far as to say they go nowhere — nowhere — without a healthy Josh Johnson, even if they sign Pujols. PITCHING! We got dat.
Fish will still stink!
Zito and Hampton are probably the benchmarks for big bucks/no performance, but really, how many long term deals for pitchers ever work out? That’s why they all want them. Here’s a pretty interesting article. It’s from 2008 but it’s still relevant now.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/john_donovan/11/05/ccsabathia.longtermdeals/
Twin–good article. I don’t understand why GM’s don’t get this. I think they factor in a lot of the marketing and revenue from the new player but they’re assuming that he’s going to keep doing what he’s done on the back of his baseball card–and that’s just extremely to happen. Pitchers are controlled for 6 years before they hit free agency and that doesn’t count all the wear and tear on their arms prior to even making it to the major leagues. The human arm/body isn’t meant to absorb the contortion of a pitching motion hundreds of thousands of times before, at some point, there’s a breakdown.
Yet the GM’s who sign the *Zito’s* and the “CJ Wilson’s* are willfully signing them at their absolute highest value after they have spent more than the majority of the life that arm has in it, at least pitching at the level that it did to create that sparkling back of a baseball card.
The ONLY time I would sign a free agent pitcher, if I’m Sabean, is if it’s a guy who’s looking to put his career back on track– ATT is a great pitcher’s park. Pick up a guy on the cheap who’s still got a little mileage in him—I’m not talking about the Welly’s and the Suppan’s. Actually, as bad as Coletti has been this off season with all his utility signings I think he did make a good move with the Capuiano signing–he would have looked nice in an SF uni next year. But whatever, I’m also fine with Sabean continuing to draft stud pitchers, develop them and then let them build up their career in SF before bailing for their 100+ millions. Fuck signing Cain or Lincecum long term. 8 years for Timmy? Bahahahhahaha! That was hilarious to read earlier today…….
BLEEP eight years!
Baggarly site full of whiners and Sabean haters, with a relative handful of thoughtful and well-informed posters who keep the place worth visiting ~ as long as you can wade through the verbiage. Perhaps the most valid and telling criticisms target the ownership circle and their unwillingness to up the ante from the $130M to a figure more in line with the recent financial successes of the franchise.
Chisox are actively marketing Carlos Quentin and the Angels have made Macier Izturis available. Do the Giants have the spareable parts to move in on both of these guys? An F.A. pickup of one of the still available #5 level starters may still be a possibility and so is some action following the 12-12 date for arbitration.
Giants are in the enviable position of needing relatively peripheral tweaking, compared with the many contenders and hopefuls who have their shares of gaping holes. The current SF roster contains sufficient talent to contend for the Playoffs. Careful moves could improve the odds. Best news to date is that Sabean has not blown his cool in order to make a big splash now and sacrifice future viability in the process.
The Giants have traded Torres and Ramirez to the Mets for Angel Pagan, per MLBTR.
Thanks Tom . . . Saw that too and like it.
Tell about this guy. Our new CF?
Pagan’s Career . . .
YEAR▲ TEAM G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS GO/AO
2006 CHC 77 170 28 42 67 6 2 5 18 15 0 28 4 2 .247 .306 .394 .701 1.32
2007 CHC 71 148 21 39 65 10 2 4 21 10 0 32 4 1 .264 .306 .439 .745 0.67
2008 NYM 31 91 12 25 34 7 1 0 13 11 0 18 4 0 .275 .346 .374 .720 0.70
2009 NYM 88 343 54 105 167 22 11 6 32 25 2 56 14 7 .306 .350 .487 .837 0.99
2010 NYM 151 579 80 168 246 31 7 11 69 44 5 97 37 9 .290 .340 .425 .765 0.71
2011 NYM 123 478 68 125 178 24 4 7 56 44 4 62 32 7 .262 .322 .372 .694 0.64
CAREER 541 1809 263 504 757 100 27 33 209 149 11 293 95 26 .279 .331 .418 .750 0.78
I’ve seen plenty of Pagan and don’t like it at all.
Mac, he is definitely not as good a fielder as Torres, otherwise he is an UPGRADE . . . Quite frankly, I’m not certain the Giants will play him in center (although it’s likely). He played right field when Beltran came back from injury in NY.
Mac, why don’t you like this deal? Just wondering . . .
Scouting Report Pagan (I cut and pasted from FOX)
Assets – Is a solid switch-hitter with great speed around the bases. Can play all three outfield positions with aplomb. Can produce with runners in scoring position.
Flaws – Strikes out too much, compared to his walks total, for a guy with average power. Tends to struggle from the right side of the plate.
Career – Solid all-around outfielder.
Thanks, Blade, that’s encouraging. Baggerly promises a SJMerc blog soon.
Scouting Report Melky Cabrera
Assets A consistent switch-hitter from both sides of the plate, he lines the ball into the gaps with regularity. Is an outstanding defensive outfielder with a strong, accurate arm.
Flaws Has only average power and speed. Needs to become a little more assertive at the plate in order to become a more productive hitter.
Career Versatile outfielder who plays great defense.
I misspoke about Pagan playing center, i.e., it would seem that Cabrera trumps him in Center. Huff is odd man out (back to first) – he wont be playing the outfield with Pagan, Nate and Cabrera . . . unless Nate screws up.
Misspoke again (mea culpa) . . . Shit, if you go by what MLB Trade Rumors is saying, Pagan sounds like a 4th outfielder, even though they consider him better than Cabrera . . . They wrote,
“Prior to the Giants’ acquisition of Pagan, their outfield was expected to feature Aubrey Huff in left, Melky Cabrera in center, and Nate Schierholtz in right field. Given the defensive inadequacies of Huff and Cabrera, Pagan might be a well-used fourth outfielder in San Francisco. Pagan will be surely be motivated to earn regular playing time, as he’s entering his contract year. He projects to earn $4.7MM through arbitration for 2012.”
He’s just not a very instinctive player. Dumb baserunner, not a very good fielder. He had a pretty hot August if I remember, but otherwise, meh. And for TWO vital pieces from the WS team? I dunno. . .
His 2010 was outstanding. Yeah, 2011 sucked, but not as bad as Torres. He actually really improved as a baserunner in 2010 too. Versatile and can play all outfield positions. Again, I’m going on record as liking this deal.
Well, I’d definitely take him over Crisp. But I can’t say that Pagan, Melky, and Nate makes me all warm and fuzzy.
Well, if it means no Crisp, then it can’t be too bad.
I’m reading that Angel is projected as the fourth outfielde.
Yeah, saw that too Mike.
And just about every Mets fan I know starts off with this: Pa-Gone!
Looking the Mets depth chart, Torres might start for them.
I’m going to miss both Andres Torres (noble warrior) and Ramon Ramirez (quiet hand). But change is needed. All the best to them. Forever a thousand million thanks.
Baggarly says they want to put pressure on Nate to compete for a job. I don’t get that.
Andres with some parting words:
“I always told the Giants, `You could release me and I’ll never say a bad word,’” Torres said. “The organization, the city and the fans – they treated me like family. Everything is great and I love it.”
I am sorry to see Torres go because he is truly inspirational. Ramirez had stretches of dominance and he’ll be missed. If the club is strongly leaning towards more innings for Huff in LF, moving away from a great defensive CF inTorres doesn’t make sense. From everything I have seen Cabrera isn’t exactly known for his D. I’m cool with that because his bat can make up for it but Pagan? Dude had something like 11 errors in CF last year. Last I check CF at AT&T is a wide and deep expanse. This deal could have just as easily been straight up. Sabean’s habit of throwing extra players into the deals this off season is strange to me.
Let’s hope he’s the 4th or 5th OFer.
“The Mets are said to value defense in center field and they consider Torres a clear upgrade over Pagan in that regard. Anyone who watched Torres play in the pastures of the NL West the last two years would agree; he probably deserved a Gold Glove in 2010.”
Pagan made 10 errors last year. Andres has 4 in two years.
Pagan is a upgrade over Torres/younger/will get you more SB,s hit for.higher.avg.We got all we could out of Torres ,he.was great in 2010,but he was a late bloomer and nothng tells me at 34 that he is nothin more then a 1yr wonder.
What I dont like is whats gonna happen with Belt and Pill
Agree with Alleykat . . . That being said, Torres had an unbelievable year in 2010 and no way we win the pennant and world series without him. Always appreciate his effort and thanks for sharing his parting words Twin . . . He is a gentleman and only wish him good luck in NY.
I like to see the roster getting younger as well.
I’d be careful- the Mets like Torres in center over Pagan.
Hi….
DJLoo said, on September 8, 2011 at 2:36 pm
G-Head: I’d like Reyes, too but 5 yrs @ $85M won’t come close to making it happen. A much more reasonable acquisition is Angel Pagan who could leadoff and play CF. Tailed off and had some injury problems after an excellent 2010. He can steal bases, field, hits triples and has occasional power
The Met’s don’t consider him a good fielder.
BTW, another deal is said to be in the workl as we speak, Kepp being one of the pieces
so we can close the door on him at SS? Exactly, as I told you a month ago.
LOO likes the guy!
Sabes did good on this deal. Dirt, I respectfully disagree with you on Sabes pulling off an “even/Steven” deal for Ramirez or Torres. No way this deal would have happened if you only offered one of them. Pagan still has upside and Torres wasn’t going to get better at 34 IMHO.
The Mets don’t think he has upside. Always always always be wary of anybody acquired by trade- we know the deal with Andres, it’s thought he had a career that he’d never repeat. We *DON’T* the deal with Pagan. Other than he’s a poor CFer.
I can see your point with this latest move but the Sanchez deal had the prospect add in that was unecessary. I thought that deal was more clearly a one for one so my frustration is with the OS moves as a whole thus far. As Twin states, there are rumbling of an AL deal in the works with Keppinger involved. Now that they’ve got two new OF who gets thrown in to sweeten this deal? Schierholtz?
Hanley wants out…
W e’re not trading Panda for him, Panda is better and not a malcontent. Give them Whitey and some crabs.
I love me some Pagan!!!
GH, I knew you would love this deal. HE’S BEEN ON ALL YOUR FUCKING FANTASY LEAGUE TEAMS. 🙂
Great fantasy steal! He should automatically be on my team next year!
This is a Sabes steal..Pagan has got a stick,…well done. Love Torres personally, but I think Pagan is a more reliable offensive threat…
I could see Pagan going to left and some games in right and Huff getting starts in left….
So tell me, BigHead, why were the Mets wiling to part with him for an over the hill one season wonder?
Because he clashed with Collins and they also got themselves a decent reliever.
LittleHead
Decent RH relievers even grow on trees in Brooklyn. As I said be wary of trade pieces.
Over the Hill one season wonder can sort of describe Torres as well. Again, I loved Torres and his story and will always be a Giant to me. But Sabes has decided that Pagan has more potential upside than Torres offensively. Clearly not a defensive replacement for Torres, why I see him in left and right.
Or is there a shot at one more Quentin level deal? Does not look like Pagan willl cost much above what Ramirez and Torres would have made combined.
I like the Pagan-Melky combo.
Damn it i posted before i was finished.Seems to me they will now go with Melky in LF.Pagan CF..Nate in RF with dare i say.Huff back at 1B and Belt and Pill riding .the pine.Man i want more pop in that OF but l guess Bochy will mix and match a lot.
I bet they’d take next to nothing to unload Hanley and his salary. They can sign Aramis Ramirez if they don’t land Pujols.
Ok Loo…We will give them Mota and Keppinger and a strong character reference about the Gamer Aaron Rowand.Think that will land us Hanley?
Belt might. He had a 2 HR game down there, didn’t he?
Is Alderson the only GM that will take Sabean’s calls?
Torres was not likely to start for us and Ramirez was a solid arm, to pick up a starting OF I believe was a savy deal.
So Twin, where is your faith in Sabes? Starting to question it? I have learned better.
As of now, he’s not a starting OFer. He’s a 4th OFer.
As far as trusting the mets judgement…this is the team that signed Bay to a monster contract, and have lost about 1800 pts. worth of OPS in Beltran and Jose Reyes, which so far they have replaced with Andres torres and probably R. Tejada. Which direction are they going in, standing wise?
Excellent point Willie . . . I’ve been reading that they are looking at a sub .500 record easily.
They probably move David Wright during the season as well…looks like they are cleaning house and stuck with Bay and Santana…
Yes, they got Bay, infuriating the 3 million Giants’ fans who wanted him..Torres replaces Pagan, BTW.
Mets also signed signing free-agent relievers Frank Francisco and Jon Rauch . . . Both of these guys were useless for Toronto last year (each being designated the closer for a few putrid weeks, then the other getting the job and then vice versa again).
As I was rushing over here, Marquette just blew two parlays for me, bastards…
So the club is done now and moves on to arbitration players and SP extensions? Only move left would be Beltran or maybe Rollins. Could Sabean drop a bomb and do a major trade?
Baggarly says another trade is likely to be happening- soon.
Should I stay up?
Baggarl seems to think so:
“The Giants likely saved at least $2-3 million in the trade and they could use that flexibility *any minute now*. Sources said the Giants are far down the road on a second trade proposal with an American League club, possibly involving infielder Jeff Keppinger.”
Loo, did you just get back tonight? So I have a question if that’s true- you’ve hanging for months waiting for Angel?
Hope you’ve been eating.. welcome back..
Dirt, I don’t think so. The “suits” upstairs have told Sabes that $130 million is the budget and that money has already been spent on the existing roster, except for maybe $4-7 million they have for additions. No idea on how this Pagan signing affects that leftover money they have. Bottom line is that Rollins and Beltran are sayonara.
Blade, true but Sabean now has better pieces to deal.
Overall i like the deal. Will massively miss Torres and the excitement he brought to the Champs. Ramirez too, was a huge part of the Magic last year. This past season it would appear that a big part of Andres’ problem was his ADHD meds were not working right. Pagan may be a bit of a defensive downgrade, but offensively he projects to be steadier than Torres would have been.
Personally i do NOT see him as the fourth outfielder unless Bochy still has huge faith in Huff. I’d like to see the money saved in the trade go into paying part of Aubrey’s salary in a trade of him to another team. That’s not likely to happen, but it does look to deprive Belt of playing time at 1B. IMO Huff peaked last year, while Belt has plenty of realizable potential as a hitter and defensively is in much the same mold as J.T. Snow and Keith Hernandez. Smooth.
Giants moved two arbitration eligibles for one. Now the logjam is at 1B with Huff, Belt and Pill, with Brandon looming as the odd man out as Pill bats RH. Presumably the impending trade involves a utility infielder who hits lefties decently well and plays at least an adequate SS.
Could be SF will move on one of the potential #5 starters in the F.A. pool. No faith in Zito, but do feel that Surkamp, despite his lack of a killer fastball, will ultimately prove an adequate bottom of rotation starter after some AAA seasoning.
Important thing about the trade is that it provides the sorely needed leadoff hitter. Melky, though serviceable for that role, is a better fit batting 6th or 7th. Pagan should thrive on the deep alleys in PhoneBill park.
If he is a starting OFer, is this supposed to be the slugging dude who allows them carry Crawdaddy’s weak bat ?
You guys persistently want to bench Huff, defying all common sense.
I don’t know much about Pagan, but I think Torres’ D in center is going to really be missed. I was kind of optimistic Andres was going to have a nice bounceback year as a part-timer without much expected of him. Anxious to hear John the Baptist’s take on the trade…
Good night all . . . Hopefully this deal Baggs is tweeting about will transpire by the time I wake up tomorrow. I’m excited about what the Giants did today.
Quite frankly, I think Sabean – with the Cabrera and Pagan deals – is showing why he deserves the 2 year extension. In short, what he has done this off season only confirms my good feelings about Sabes and am glad he is on our side.
Nite 🙂
I hope you’re right. As I said, a Cabrera/Pagan/Shierholtz OF doesn’t get me all sqwiggly wiggly..I’ll ponder it with Zeke..
Belt hits the bench. Huff goes back to 1st. If he flails, then back to Belt . . .
Yeah their definitely gonna trade Keppinger.Once Freddy breaks down,the new 2B will be Pill who is working out there.Visions of Jeff Kent Power and clears up a logjam at 1B.Make it happen GIANTS.
Pill played there some in Fresno. The report said he “attempted” to play second.
BTW, this works out great for Andres, he’ll get a raise instead of a pay cut. I’m delighted for him.