Torres/Ramirez for Pagan: Who Wins?
To me, this is a fantastic trade in terms of what a trade SHOULD be all about. Both teams are taking some risk here, both could obviously reap a big reward, either could end up looking bad, and the main component isn’t about shedding salary (well, a little bit for the Giants). We obviously won’t know the winner and the loser in this one until the season plays out. It’s possible that neither Pagan or Torres return to their 2010 glory. Both players are getting a fresh chance with a new team but if both stay fizzled in their 2011 form it won’t be the biggest surprise. Obviously, both Sabean AND Alderson think their *guy* won’t bounce back or they wouldn’t be making the trade. And since Pagan had a little bit better year than Torres and it could be argued that he has a slightly better chance to return to being a productive player at the plate, Sabes had to throw Ramirez in, too. I’m fine with that.
Here’s another thing, assuming they’re both healthy in ST, I think they will both be starting outfielders for their respective squads when camp breaks in 2012. Torres is going to slide right into the CF position for the Mets. And despite the early talk about Pagan being a 4th OF for us, I think that’s a bunch of poppycock. Huff will be starting at first base with Pagan in CF and Melky in LF. I don’t care what you hear out of Bochy and Sabean TODAY, barring injury, this will be the plan on Opening Day. Feel free to copy and paste this back in my face if it doesn’t happen.
I think Sabean has been fairly brilliant with his “Melky/Pagan” moves. Three things we didn’t have last year (well, AT LEAST 3 things we didn’t have last year): 1) a lead off guy 2) speed/stolen base threats 3) reliable right handed bats. Melky and Pagan improve us in ALL three of those areas. Now, I’m not certain about what this does to the LU, but IF it goes Pagan/Melky/Panda then we now have 3 competent switch hitters in a row in the first third of our line up— that is huge, especially later in a game when managers try to go *match ups* on us. Now, Freddy will probably bat 2nd but you can at least see the possibility of our line up looking like that should Bochy decide to go that way.
Defense really isn’t taking a hit here. If this move pushes Huff back to 1st base then it has IMPROVED our outfield defense. Torres wasn’t going to start for us in 2012. So while it cannot be argued that Pagan is even in the same ballpark as Andres defensively, it’s not really something to compare since our ACTUAL outfield defense just got better (unless you think that Huff is a better defensive outfielder than Pagan and if you think that I can’t help you)……
Another thing I’m not worried about: The fact that the Mets were willing to part with Pagan. For starters, the Mets suck. Bad teams make bad decisions, that just what they do. Alderson is trying to fix that mess and it can’t be argued that his sole opinion is that Andres is more like than Pagan to bounce back to 2010 form since he got Ramirez in the deal, too. It can be argued that it is far more likely that Sabean feels Pagan is the more likely bounce back candidate since he’s the one throwing in the *extra* into the deal. And Sabean has made way too many good decisions over the last couple of years to not give him the benefit of the doubt on this. Again, I’m on record as liking both the Melky and the Pagan acquisitions, and if they both fail then feel free to remind me later. Just remember, we had one of the worst offenses in the history of baseball last year so it’s not like Melky has to reproduce 2011 or Pagan has to be Pagan-2010 for this to be considered a success for Sabean. Coming close to either year will be enough to make us better offensively. Considering the financial restrictions that he’s under, I think he’s having a fabulous off season so far……..
A Place To Talk About Giants Baseball 
I think you have melky hit 5th and then you have 4 switch hitters out of the top 5 in the lineup.
With Pagan, Franchez and Panda. They are going to be a lot of base runners for posey and Melky. I am fine with Huff at first ans we also know that Posey is going to get first base starts. So I can see huff getting some lf starts.
Question now is what to do with Belt. If he is not playing every day in the buig leagues. I’d rather have him hitting all the time in Fresno, but will that be a mental shot at his psyche?
What could be real interesting is if melky and pagan have solid years and get extensions is a 2013 with melky in left, brown in center and pagan in right.
So if Keppinger is dealt, bench of:
Backup Catcher, Fontenot, Burriss, Pill and Belt???
Good post Flav. You won’t find me “throwing this back in your face” because I endorsed it last night. I think the only other Flapper that is more excited about this deal is Giant Head and that’s because Pagan has been a cornerstone of all his Flap fantasy league teams. HA!
You did have it wrong in one respect though . . . Torres was thrown in to make this deal palatable to the Mets. Yes, they needed a center fielder, but this deal doesn’t fly, unless Ramirez is traded to them. See Snarkk’s late post last night. He correctly pointed this out. Torres wasn’t even likely to be tendered by the Giants. His ship had already sailed metamorphic ally.
It’s also a moot point regarding Flappers saying that defense will suffer (as you pointed out). Remember, Torres was not likely to be tendered, much less start, i.e., he was only going to be a defensive replacement/utility player next year if he stayed. I see Huff going to first base also and if he fails there, he is riding the bench. None of this bullshit where he constantly gets to start, despite him flailing away at the plate . . . Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. No, he sits if he doesn’t get it going this year.
I said last night that Sabean was brilliant this off season and nothing changes my mind this morning. He has changed the offense at minimum cost to please the “suits” upstairs. Per Twin’s post last night, he may not even be done – another trade/deal is in the works as we speak. Regardless of what happens this year, the team has a different look, AND FOR THAT I AM GRATEFUL.
I’m all in baby . . .
Giants need hitting and Pagan is a stronger performer. His speed is an asset for the slow footed Giants.
Nip, World Series here we come . . . Book it. 🙂
Nice to see you on board, Blade…… 🙂
Last year we were a station to station team with NO power. Is there any worse combo in baseball? Of course we didn’t score any runs last year with that combo.
Sabean has just stuck 50-60 stolen bases into the LU and that doesn’t get factored into OPS since the singles and walks that Melky and Pagan get often get turned into “doubles” when they steal 2nd and get into scoring position—-and Sabes did all this while LOWERING the payroll, Really, both these moves were brilliant……..
At least we have changed the paradigm . . . as you pointed out “station to station with no power” was frickin’ boring. In short, I would rather be water boarded than watch a repeat of last year’s offense. I’m also not concerned about the lack of power in our offense. Phone Park sets up nicely for Angel and Melky to do their thing with steals, doubles, and triples. Unless your name is Bonds, the Phone Park benefits the Road Runners of this league, not the Coyotes.
Yep, I am totally down with this team.
Look for more lumbering types to vanish. Gots to get young! Gots to get faster! Gots to get better!
I loved Torres but I think this is a good trade. And, like Flav said, it may work out well for both teams.
As I was saying yesterday, I think Belt is now trade bait (Han Ram trade, Flav?). With the RH Pill on the bench. My reasoning is still the same, glut at first and Posey in their plans to take over the position in the near future.
I think they did better than can be expected. Only time will tell if this was brilliant.
Dirrty was a troubled mess and Torres was flat out lost at the plate last yr and was rumored to be having all sorts of trouble with his add/med. Ramirez can be replaced. They add speed athleticism-read youth to the OF. Still need more “clutch” power from the right side, but maybe Pill can be that guy.
I’m excited and anxious to see how this all plays out, Wish Andres the best. Terrific guy who will be missed.
F-G guy seems to think at least SF has upgraded OF offensively over non-beltran types who played there last year. Also points out SF pitchers are high ground ball guys (4th most in league)–if Pagan is in CF, then either Melk or maybe Belt/Nate are in the corners. finally, we are at least younger and more athletic.
Look at some of the additions by Sabes of guys coming off down years that have worked out well—burrell, uribe, huff. Even the likes of a Willingham and Cuddyer (and certainly coco crisp) have flaws, and we weren’t getting Matt Kemp for Ramon Ramirez, unless the throw in was lincecum.
Also, if Decker is moving to a roving instructor I expect he will be working heavily with Hector to bring the kid up to speed as a back-up and hopefully future starter (when Buster gets moved to First).
Also applaud them for not caving in and giving out some bloated multi yr FA contract. Sure, they could blow up the budget and become Boston West. But there’s certainly no guarantee with that method of doing business.
If the promising young players in their system pan out, they can afford to keep the core of Tim/Matt/Bum/Pablo/Buster and have a nice run of success with largely homegrown talent.
I may disagree with the method but i like the results. Sabean could stop horsetrading now and I consider it a stellar off season. I hope Belt doesn’t get moved. Don’t think he does.
Thanks for the memories Andres, I normally hate anything to do with the Mets but I will be checking their box scores and pulling for him next season. I support the trade, but I personally think much of the hitting fortunes rest on Brandon Belt. If he puts up a Pat Burrell type season (walks, HRs, mediocre but tolerable average), the entire lineup changes for the better.
Assuming the OF is set, I would hope a good trade target is Maicer Izturis, since there are rumors the Angels may trade him or Callaspo. Izturis has + career UZRs at 2b, ss, 3b and handled himself very well at ss and 3b last year (his 2b numbers were aberrantly low). He has a competent bat (his OBP is better than most of the Giants active roster) and I have always regarded him as an underappreciated infielder — definitely way better than the free agent scrubs who are getting big contracts this winter. He has one year left at about 4 million.
Notice the vote on this deal. Seems Flappers are, as the French say, “d’accord” with Sabean’s move/s. The other trade in the offing would likely be for an infielder with strong SS skills and versatility who can hit lefties. That leaves one more move, IMHO. Some team out there might bite for a backup first baseman and left fielder, batting lefthanded and somewhat of a threat off the bench, if the Giants would pay half his salary. In the process of rebuilding from the Championship team the Thong should be relegated to the memory bin.
At this point i would NOT care to see SF trade off Belt unless some squad out there is willing to overpay massively, primarily based on his potential. Huff, on the other hand, is largely a defensive liability, particularly in the outfield, and has very little upside. He may have one more good season in him. Two is a faint possibility. Belt is young, young, young and in the J.T. Snow/ Keith Hernandez class defensively. Plus, he has very good RBI potential and should knock 20+ dingers over the course of a 600 AB season. Last season he was jacked around and dicked direfully. Certain posters can argue the matter till hell freezes over, but most thoughtful fans are of the opinion that Brandon caught a raw deal last season. He does NOT need that kinda treatment deja vu all over again. So priority should go to moving the Aubrey holes. He may do well for some other team this coming season, but would be unlikely to repeat the feat. He will always remain a major part of Giants Championship lore and will always be loved around the Bay accordingly. But like with Uribe, Renteria, Drrrty, Ramirez and Torres, it is time to quit merely basking in past glories and simply move on.
With the money presumably saved on Huff’s salary, the Giants should be able to snag a perfectly serviceable #5 starter. If the guy does not pan out at least to the degree of his track record, halfway into the season or so Eric Surkamp should have sufficient AAA experience to develop into somewhat of a Kirk Reuter type and learn to get em out with guile and deception, plus the realtor’s dream of location, location, location. Coming up this past season Surkamp had a very enviable K-BB ratio in both High A and AA. His loss of control in The Show can be attributed to nervousness in facing the plethora of good hitters resulting in a tendency to get picky. I feel he has good potential as a bottom of rotation ML starter.
A throw in doesn’t figure to start for his new team, people. Ramirez was picked up for a AA minor league pitcher, HE would would have been the throw in. Middle relievers aren’t fucking traded for starting position players.The Giants’ plan for Torres was to trade him and if they couldn’t get enough make him an offer pre-arb, which he undoubtedly would taken. Non-tendering does not not neccessarily mean the guy’s gone- they didn’t want want him for what he would have received in arb. Actually, Baggarly outlined this a couple days days ago. As to the fourth OFer thing, Pagan is tenatatively slated as that, but I already said before the trade,if they were still looking for outfielder, it meant that Belt would be the casualty unless Huff showed needing a gastric bypass. So I asked the question last night- is Pagan suppoosed to be the slugger who would enable them to put up with Crawdaddy’s weak bat?
So actually, it’s not so much whether these two trades work out, as much as “This is the best you could do between the FA and trade markets?”
As I’ve said and BP says this morning:
“On its own merits, the move makes sense for the Giants, if only because it means more offense and less Melky up the middle. However, it’s as notable for what it means they won’t do as it is for what they did. With Pagan in the fold, it seems probable that the Giants will go with a Cabrera/Pagan/Nate Schierholtz outfield alignment, which, while not awful defensively, promises to be distinctly San Franciscan at the plate. That means we may be in for another year of Brandon Belt on the bench or bouncing between the Bay and Fresno, since the youngster figures to have as difficult a time passing Aubrey Huff on Bruce Bochy’s personal depth chart as he did last season.”
Good analysis, Flav, and I agree, Sabes has done well again. I’m not ecstatic, but it is a smart and hopefully effective move. Following on a couple posts above, I think this gives them the flexibility to keep Belt at Fresno for the year–which could be a good thing. Now, we need to get some bench players, which I’ve pointed out–and Twin yesterday I think–was a real hole for us last year. Dodgers seem to have spent the off-season gathering them all to serve as their starting infield, including Hairston yesterday.
To Andres, I would say a huge thank you for your effort and spirit–you exemplified the team’s style and spirit as much as any player in 2010. Your desire was infectious–we all knew you came back too soon from appendicitis–and you were a key reason we went all the way. Good luck in New York; I’ll get to see you run the Nationals to ground in DC next year!
Twin,your question doesn’t make sense. Pagan isn’t a slugger, everyone knows that. Melky and Pagan are going to get on base and put themselves in position to be driven in (something we didn’t have last year). Posey, Panda and hopefully Huff will provide the slugger-bats that you seem to be wondering about. If Huff can’t do it, Belt will get a shot to.
The question makes total sense, nothing they’ve done helps them carry Mario Crawford’s bat. And good for you if you want to presume that Pagan will recapture his 2010 and Melky wil repeat his 2011. They’re still lacking a move. The offense still stinks on ice, OF defense is worse, Zito is the #5, Stewart is the back up catcher, Burriss the back up SS- yeah, good job..
the offense is significantly better, on paper, with the addition of Melky and Pagan. AND the payroll went down. You’re just arguing the other way on this because that’s what you do with EVERYTHING.
Why is carrying Crawford’s bat such a big deal? Back in the day, having a no-hit/all glove SS was the norm. They can carry it fine with the additions of Melky and Pagan and the return of Franchez and Posey and, hoepfully, an on-year from Huff—that basically 5 new improvements on last year’s shit offense out of 8 possible position players. Um, the offense has fucking improved…….
Don’t underestimate a fully healthy, perfect 20/20 Panda!
Actually-pay attention-I supported the Melky trade. And it’s interesting how often trading Pagan seems to phrased in words like the Mets “got rid of him”. I don’t like this deal, don’t make that a BFD as you always do. Reading comments around the web, Met’s fan’s don’t seem heart broken to see Pagan gone- and he picked up one “nickname” that will never to attached to “Vungo”- clubhouse cancer.
BLEEP YES!
I fully expect the final piece will be a Rhh SS to platoon with Craw and maybe assume a fulltime role if Craw doesn’t hit. A Gnzales name was thrown around and dismissed, but would rather him than Font/Burriss.
Well, you were advocating the as-is approach 2 months ago, Twin. As in the guys that did bad (Huff, Torres, Belt)will get better, and the guys they missed (Buster, Sanchez) will be back and pounding it.
They’ve at least addressed the plodding offensive approach with faster players at the top of the order. Will they set the table? We’ll see. But they weren’t brought here to be Beltrans. That falls to a returning Posey, and a resurgent (hopefully) Huff, and a healthy Panda.
And I’ve never wanted Huff in the OF. Putting that to rest is cool with me.
As far as SS goes, I’m sure that’s what Sabes is working on now with Keppie/Affeldt.
Having a good enough offense to carry Crawford’s bat is a BFD because the team management SAID it was a BFD. That’s not a Twin declaration. ,,
And BTW, Pagan was also likely to be non-tendered according to numerous souces. So we traded a good reliever and a solid 4th OFer for a guy we could have picked up without losing anybody.
I never “advocated” doing nothing, I said they could win the division as-is.
“I’m sure that’s what Sabes is working on now with Keppie/Affeldt…………..”
Is that per your ‘sources”, Unca Scoop? 🙂
I thought he was getting A-Gony, Chuckles. That’s your recommendation, at least.
Don’t cry when it happens, Twin.
Yup. My sources are rarely worng. I’m a legend in my own mind.
And, yes, I realize that I spelled wrong wrong . . .
But how can they be getting A-Gony and working on a trade for a SS also? And of course I’d cry if they picked up A-Gony. Any non-idiot would.
2011 WAR
Baseball Reference
Pagan 0.2
Torres 1.3
FanGraphs
Pagan 0.9
Torres 2.1
So both sites agree that Torres was the more valuable to his team. But wait- that doesn’t count- it includes defense!! The defense comment fron Craig is weirdo. The question is whether Pagan will be an improvement over LAST year’s CFer. Everyone knows he will a huge downgrade, while his offense is is not good enough to compensate. Keep in mind, he’s a downgrade in CF according to both FG and BR even taking onto consideration Torres 2011.
Those numbers are wonderful, Mike.
Fuck the numbers.
If Pagan hits .280, yippee. It’s a good trade. If he doesn’t, they traded shit for shit, and lost ground defensively.
If Torres hits .290 yadda yadda yadda, then we got jobbed. Don’t see it happening, but hey shit happens all the time . . .
I don’t think they have to worry, Chuckles. They’re getting A-Gony, everything’s cool.
Not too late to sign Rollins for 5 yrs.
I was talking A-Gon way before Sabean went on this mad trading binge, skippy.
The word is, Sabean is working a deal with Keppie and possibly Affeldt. One would think it involved a SS or back-up catcher.
The last word on a trade involving Affeldt that I’ve seen seen was from Baggs two days ago. Do you have something newer or more reliable?
“–It’s also my understanding that the Giants didn’t “shop” Jeremy Affeldt in a true sense. They got so many inquiries about him that they sent out an email to gauge their best offer. Realistically, though, the Giants are committed to the pitching formula and they recognize how many close games involve Affeldt’s contributions. They are far more likely to visit trading right-hander Ramon Ramirez, who is viewed as more replaceable. (Heath Hembree, hello.)”
Possibly, Mike. Possibly. Are you saying he’s off the table? Of course not.
Nothing ever said he was on the table. Nothing from anyone connected to the team that I’ve seen. I’m sorry Chuckles ,but you are not considered a reliable source. However I must say that you’ve been shown to have a finger on the pulse of really stupid team moves since your call on Ballmer with the Niners
Shea posted the Giants are close to signing back Mr. Mota . . .
Twin, which player and/or Mets official called Pagan a “clubhouse cancer?” I’ve searched and I can’t find where that is written or attributed to someone? Mets manager Terry Collins told ESPNNewYork.com, “”We’re going to miss Angel. Played great here,” Collins said. “But again, our target was to rebuild the bullpen and he was a piece that they (Giants) wanted badly.” The same article describes Beltran as a mentor to Pagan . . . “Pagan was a frequent fill-in for mentor Carlos Beltran in recent seasons until taking over the everyday job in center this year. Beltran shifted to right in spring training before he was traded to the Giants in late July.”
Team officials will rarely, if ever, make that characterization. But if you really did any real research, you’d see this over and over(this from CBS)
“The trade of Angel Pagan was necessary. There were rumblings in the Mets’ clubhouse that Pagan’s attitude changed dramatically in the second half of the year after the exodus of his mentor, Carlos Beltran. Andres Torres is not the athletic specimen that Pagan is, but he is a much better defensive center fielder and a great off-the-field guy.”
Another: “Pagan is arbitration eligible and will prob. make around $5M in 2012. That’s a nice chunk of money for a centerfielder that is hitting .250, has a bad attitude, and has regressed on the defensive end. ”
His attitude and how it contributed to the trade is common knowledge and all over the internet.
Blade, this is from the guy who runs MetsBlog.com, which I think is operated by the Mets’ SNY Network, so it’s someone who’s got some connections to the Mets and not just some “blog-potato”:
“In the last six months, I’ve lost count of how many people told me about how disappointed Terry was with Pagan’s demeanor last season. From what I can gather, Collins and Sandy Alderson have told people Pagan cracked under the pressure of taking over for Beltran, he got down on himself early in the year and never rebounded from it. ‘He quit on himself,’ a person in the clubhouse once told me. They all seem to take particular issue him claiming to be dehydrated and missing multiple games in July.”
Later, he added, “What’s more, in Torres, Terry gets a guy who will always play hard and who carry out his message about preparation and effort.”
Well, I’m out for awhile. I realize most here love this treade. But outside of this blog, there’s hardly any consensus on it. I’m not going to take any shit for having the opinion that the trade is not a good one. If Melky/Pagan/Nate is to be the OF and these are moves to be made, the team AS A WHOLE has not been improved.
However, as I said last night, I’m delighted for Vungo, who will get a raise, not the paycut he would have received here. He was a good Giant and a class act, something it appears could not be said of Pagan..
Yeah, it’s much more fun to give other people shit for their opinions.
Boo hoo . . .
Torres? He’s the quintessential ‘good Giant.’ Gonna miss his spirit and his attitude, and that 12 lb. gold chain around his neck.
When the comments are ignorant to the facts, yes, absolutely.
I actually like this trade better than the Melky deal. Since they didn’t have a clubhouse cancer, I guess you could say they filled a need.
This is fun, I’ll stay up awhile:
NYDailyNews
“But that’s not all. They have traded Angel Pagan, whom you (and his Mets teammates) will surely not miss”
“It’s no secret that the Sandy Alderson administration soured on New York Mets center fielder Angel Pagan. There were rumors that he would not be even be tendered a contract this offseason because both his hitting and — more importantly to the new front office — his fielding regressed. Plus, Pagan was often the culprit of a number of boneheaded mistakes and his attitude often did not jive with his bosses.”
A few years ago the Mets had a notorious clubhouse cancer named Jeff Kent that they couldn’t wait to unload.
He was a clubhouse cancer here as well, and everywhere else he played. It’s amazing what a team will put up with for 30 HR and 120 RBI.
I didn’t vote on the thread question. Certainly not a two thumbs up, yet I wouldn’t call it terrible. Like I said last night, it’s a Why The Fuck Not? trade. It’s like you and a friend exchanging girlfriends you’re tired of. Here, take mine, I’ll take yours. Maybe we’ll be better off with the new one, though each has big flaws, and since yours is a little younger and quicker and more of an upside (but,quirkier), I have to throw in my used Chevy Malibu to you, ‘cuz you want something you know works a little in case my older girlfriend takes a hike on you and doesn’t perform…
Maybe I’m giving Rodriguez too much credit as a Chevy Malibu. Maybe a Nova? Anyway, the Mets needed Pen help badly, and he was the item that moved the needle between the two others…
Ramirez…
Oh, God. Another Gomez moment. Look, just call ’em all Pancho, I’ll sort it out for you.
Yeah, yeah. But you weren’t getting a new girlfriend. You were just dumping her.
Well, Sabes was dumping her…
Not so- that was your take. The actual plan was to attempt a trade and if they didn’t like it, make him an offer before arb.Alas, that’s what they have should done.
Give us the link to where that was the idea…
How many starts until Bumgarner goes Gino on Cabrera or Pagan when they drop an easy out, miss the cut off or throw to the wrong base?
Ramirez was our #4 RHer out of the pen and did a nice job ( rather like Medders or Miller in 2009), he might be a help to them, but he’s hardly a key piece here. Traded alone he’d fetch a middling prospect not ever likely to pitch in the bigs. Just like the Red Sox got for him.
I forgot all about Medders and Miller. Can’t even remember Miller’s first name. Shows you how disposable these guys are.
Like to see a heavy dose of Pill playing 2B this ST.Yeah i know Twin will rheem this,but if he is somewhat capable and doesn.t turn into a Steve Sax it would sure help the logjam at 1B.The dude needs AB.s and.with his power numbers ….2 bombs 9Rbis in 50 eAB.s last year equates to 25jacks and close to100 Rbi.s per 500 Ab.s.Jeff Kent production.Once Freddy breaks down.Give Pill a crack.
In place of Sanchez?
Uh, just saw the 2nd to last line. Nevermind.
Why the fuck would I not want the guy to make it? But don’t be be projecting 50 AB into a full season. That has Bowker at HOF level.But with these trades putting the pinch on Belt, Pill might have a better shot now and if he can play second in an emergency, it helps more.
Just read Twin’s collection of internet article bad-mouthing of Pagan. Pagan had a bad attitude in NY? Ha! Who didn’t? That team has been in disarray for at least a couple of years and last year was hilarious how fucked up they got. Who could forget Wilpon dogging his own players in the New Yorker last year? Google it if you didn’t read it, it was a hoot.
Pagan and his bad attitude still managed to steal 32 bases, 8th in the league last year. He stole 37 the year before that. Plus, he’s only 30.
If he DID have a bad attitude it was likely mirroring the shit attitude that Reyes, the owner and all the rest of that team had last year.
Plus, guys with bad attitude’s who get traded away from their team and don’t have a long term deal have a way of turning things around the following year. He’s getting a fresh start for a team and he HAS to perform. If he came into SF with a shitty attitude that doesn’t get him what he wants which is a starting gig and a long term deal (if he kicks ass in 2012). This dude has skills. And if he had a bad attitude what is the easiest thing in the world to change: that’s right, you’re fucking attitude…..
We’re getting him at the perfect time, I think he’s going to have a huge year for us…..
Chalk up some of the bad mouthing to feeding the NY press to help justify the trade…
If Sabean offered Pujols a 10 year deal, and he took it, I would be so fucking bummed……
And if you’re Pujols, why would you even want a 10 year deal? Let’s say it’s 10 years 220 million. The contract ends when you’re fourty-fucking-two. Why wouldn’t he prefer an 8 year, 176 million dollar deal? He’s already made what? Like 100 million? Why wouldn’t you just play 8 more years, bank another 176 mil (not counting endorsements) and retire before your skills erode and the fans start to hate you for making so much money? Hell, why not just take a 6 year, 150 million dollar deal? How many millions do you need? There are a LOT of innings on that dude. He’s already had some physical problems with his elbow the last couple of years. How many of those 10 years does he keep playing at an elite level? MAYBE five?
Buehrle gets 4 years and 58 million from Miami. Ha, that is too funny. If they still get Pujols for 10 years then they will hit the trifecta on dumbass contracts. Seriously, if there was an idiotic way to spend roughly 380 million on 3 players, Miami has followed the perfect blue print…….
Well, he’s turned down 10 a few times, hasn’t he? Maybe it’s not enough money or maybe he wants 20 years. 33? That gets him to Medicare.
The longer Pujols drags this out with St. Louis./Miami/Angels/Cubs/Whoever, he’s looking more like a greedy putz. After $200 million, what’s the point of more — it just establishes how greedy you are. If he goes to Miami with no “no trade” clause in place, he could be gone from there in 4 years or so to wherever, and then he’s just an old vagabond with eroded skills getting overpaid. That’s if Miami doesn’t draw, which I bet they won’t…
Here’s what I think goes down by Opening Day. Unless Belt has a monster Spring, I think he starts in Fresno. Huff will play 1st, Melky LF, Pagan CF and Nate in RF.
If….. Huff starts off with his *on again* year, Belt stays down in Fresno. If Belt is tearing Fresno up and Huff is still fiddling around on may 15th, I bet we see him called up and Huff hits the DL with something fake.
If…… Nate gets injured as usual, Belt comes up and goes to LF, Pagan stays in CF and Melky goes to RF
If ……Belt is crushing it in ST and Nate hits .150, same scenario as above. Why not? Bowker took the job from him the same way.
If…… Pagan and his *bad attitude* sulk their way into 2012, he becomes a 4th OF and Belt comes up, goes to the OF and Huff stays at 1st base…..
Belt starting the season in AAA is a great insurance plan for any of the scenario’s I’ve listed above (excpet for the third one)….
Not bad scenarios. Some of the folks here having Belt as part of potential trades I think are way off base. He’s got too much potential, and Huff surely is not coming back in 2013. So, then it would be Belt vs. Posey at 1B to sort out. Belt just needs more minor league ABs, and half a season down in Fresno again will get him a couple hundred more, plus the Winter League ABs he’s gotten, should get him to near a 1000 ABs total so far, which should help solidify his swing….
Harry Morgan just died. That sucks, I was a huge M*A*S*H fan. Still am
Sad. R.I.P.
I may never get over this one. Can you refer me to a grief counselor, Teddy?
He was old 25 years ago.
Criminy, he lived til 96. Good on him.
Since when did Alderson become trash? He’s cleaning out some of the troublemakers. The team won’t be good this year but as Forbes.com says
” Gone are the days of the grossly inflated contracts and underperforming players who rely heavily on past achievements and glory. Sandy Alderson has a clear vision as to how the Mets should be rebuilt and will rewrite the definition of what it takes to win on an economical budget in a major cosmopolitan city. Many mistakes have been made and Alderson will rectify them in an expeditious manner. The pain of losing Jose Reyes will eventually subside and the Mets will once again be a competitive ball club.”
Who called him trash? The point was, last year the entire fucking team, including the owner, were dysfunctional and bad attitudes were likely everywhere. As I said, I don’t give a shit if he had a bad attitude or not, he is coming to us with a fresh start and what good would it do him to carry over the bad attitude from the shit-team wide attitude he had last year and take it here? He NEEDS to play well to get a starting gig, keep it and get a multi year deal. He’s going to come here and play great–unless he’s Nyjer Fucking Morgan, in which case we are fucked.
The fucking point is that Alderson is clearing out the cancers and we got one of them Whoopie.
again, what he did in that cesspool of dysfunction in NY doesn’t concern me. And as I said, he was still able to function and be a productive player as his 8th in the league SB # shows you. I wish Torres had been able to stay productive last year……..
Maybe you shoud remove Baseball Reference and FanGraphs from your links. They both say that Torres was more valuable to his team last year.
Sandusky arrested again in Pennsylvania, this time on more charges coming from 2 new victims.
Can’t make bail this time…
Sorry, not buying that Pagan is a “cancer.” Did he have a bad attitude last year? Maybe, but I am not going to go through a long drawn out explanation of why he will be different next year. Suffice to say, Flav’s 1:46pm and 2:18pm posts reflect my position perfectly. People change and none of us have been perfect our entire life. Consequently, I am willing to give Angel the benefit of the doubt (just like I do with any one I meet for the first time in real life). If he turns into a piece of shit – whoopee, IT WAS AT MINIMUM COST. The fucking deals I hate are the ones that cost years and years, plus the Brinks truck thrown in for good measure, e.g., Zito, Pavano, Hampton, Neagle, Brown, et. al. ad infinitum.
The Giants status quo was not working and the deals Sabean has made changes the entire paradigm of how we will be playing next year. I’m stoked!
Fine, he’s just misunderstood.
Just like Twin!
No one is Nyger Morgan but Nyger.
Huff, Burrell, Kent, Bonds, Schmidt, Carlton, even Bill frigging Matlock, among others, were suppsedly selfish players when they were brought here. Cancers, assholes, whatever. If you have a team full of them, hey, you get problems. See: Portland Jail Blazers a of few years back. But getting Pagan for one year on a contract push? On a team that is pretty much solid down the line attitude-wise? I don’t think he will bring baggage to this clubhouse. Otherwise, he’s fucking himself more than anyone else. Will he hit better than Torres and the others did last year? Yeah, that’s the hope. The fucking bar is pretty low . . .
Can Chuck wiggle under a low bar?
Matlock? I didn’t know Andy Griffith played with the Giants….
You win, Mike. Only your opinion is valid. We all just blow smoke and provide comic relief for your divine nuggets of wisdom.
Carry on, skippy.
You’re starting to get it.
Huh. Just heard the Giants are gettting either a PTBNL or cash from the Mets for the trade . . .
Chuck has his ear to the ground!
Bill James has his projections out. Here’s for our projected starting LU plus Torres. The traded guys are obviously projected with the former teams. This presented without comment from me so contact James with your bitching.
Melky 516 AB .279 BA 11 HR 64 RBI .332 OBP .745 OPS
Pagan 504 AB .278 BA 8 HR 55 RBI .335 OBP .734 OPS
Crawdaddy 259 AB .232 BA 4 HR 22 RBI .297 OBP .637 OPS
Huff 391 AB .261 13 HR 55 RBI .334 OBP .756 OPS
Posey 523 AB .302 19 HR 80 RBI .366 OBP .828 OPS
Fruckie 462 AB .284 6 HR 47 RBI .326 OBP .713 OPS
Nate 294 AB .279 7 HR 35 RBI .327 OBP .766 OPS
Sandoval 537 AB .311 24 HR 86 RBI .363 OBP .888 OPS
Torres 352 AB .255 8 HR 32 RBI .332 OBP .737 OPS
Fuck the numbers . . .
Chuck BLEEPS away all numbers!
For what it’s worth, according to Baggarly, Sabean and Bochy have both stated flatly that Burriss is on the team. And Bochy said that Crawford is the SS. Good news is that they’ve changed their stance on Hector and he’ll have a shot to be the 2 catcher.
One thing that’s cool, I never have to remember my calls. Chuckie will go back 4 or 5 years to remind me. But hell, I don’t know why anyone’s even arguing about Torres. He was DFA’ed in 2010..
How do you measure a bad attitude?
Look in the mirror, Nippy . . .
Hey, I just got out of the shower! The mirror is steamed up.
when the mirror is steamed up it is almost impossible to resist drawing on it or running a finger across — just like a Wet Paint sign #metaphor
You’re so right, Pawlie. My most common drawing is the SF logo. Never doubt my committment.
Only saw one comment here about it, but it bears more scrutiny and discussion: the Giants also get PTBNL or cash from the Mets. No one — no one — as far as I can tell, said that in all the discourse on Twitter and elsewhere. doesn’t that change the equation to the point that it cannot be measured until all the pieces are in place? For that matter, I submit you cannot necessarily even evaluate this in one year, if a PTBNL is a prospect. As I said to my Mets friend, I honestly hope all involved have stellar years, I really do. p.s. Phuck the Phish.
Is it even true? Maybe Chuck will share where he saw that. I can’t find it. Could be his idea of a joke, or just trashing Andres.
I saw it too . . . Actually, it was via a Giants organization email.
yes, from sfgiants.com in an email. to me. personally. nobody else #hubris
Marlins’ Pujols deal off the table. I hope he stays in STL.
YEAH!
This comment was deleted by Big Flavor…….
As I’ve been saying for a while, it’s time to give Nate 550 ABs and see what the fuck we have already. So what if he goes 3 for 40 every so often. I think he proved a lot last year. I thought Torres looked literally lost on a baseball field for much of last season. I have no idea what went wrong with him. Pagan’s gonna kill for us.
Kind of a major problem getting him 550 ABs is that he is hurt half the fucking time..
Torres? Something I hadn’t seen until now (on obsessivegiantscompulsive, a good blog) was that Andres’ medication for his ADD was fucked up last year.( cue your hilarious “adda boy” jokes) And he did have achilles problems.
As to the “clubhouse cancer”, let’s see: didn’t Vungo have plenty of reason to become disenchanted? I’m just not seeing the kind of comments about him as there are about Pagan.. Am I missng them ?
Why should he have become disenchanted? He wasn’t getting it done, and would probably be the first to admit it.
What was Pagan’s excuse?
And Pagan never looked more than a bit adrift last year as well? You must not watch the same Mets games I do.
Loo has shown his bias against Torres with the adderall cracks for a couple years now.
Yeah I do, Mac. Pagan may have been “a bit adrift”. Torres was outright dreadful.
I don’t see Loo slamming Torres for Adderall here [now]. I think he, like all of us, was pulling for the guy to succeed. I hope Andres wins the fucking MVP Award, with Pagan in 2nd place, 1 vote behind.
Everything I say shouldn’t be taken seriously. Sometimes I try to be funny or stimulate a little chat. I would think you’re smart enough to know that since you do it too.
10 errors last year? That’s like about 50 for a shortstop. And I remind you that even in that terrible year offensively, Torres was still more more valuable to his team than Pagan.
Or is it only Mudbug’s defense that counts ?
He just said they were jokes, Paul.
Rhodesia?
I’ll say this, Florida has already bought and dismantled 2 World Seris winning teams. Looks like they are going for a 3rd.
No kiddin’ does anyone know if Angel is related to Jose Pagan, of the 1950s – 1960s Giants? Man, we had great Latin players. SPEAKING OF WHICH last night at B&N I saw a handsome looking Juan Marichal autobiography (w/ Lew Freedman). Check it out. Putting it on my Christmas list.
Send me your address. I’ll get it for you.
I loved Pagan.Jose hit 2 HRs in a game once in his career. Unfortunately Mays happened to hit 4 in the same game.
What’s with the comments ?
Huston Street traded to Padres for pretty much nada. Strange brew.
Strange brew–girl what’s inside of you?
from Baggs:
Sabean: “Ross, we could never get on the same page, and Beltran, we knew it was going to be a stretch.”
Ross is pining for the Rockies . . .
Stupid-ass Heyman just said Beltran to SF is still a possibility.
Well, the word was that Pagan went south when Daddy was acquired by the Giants. This is hard to believe, though. Then Nate would never get his 550..
Hey Twin…Just give me 300 to 400 AB.S for Belt and PILL and i would be happy.
See page B, the do nothing LU….anything to make you happy, Kat. Wonder if the poll results would be the same if it was *really* understood that this most likely sends Belt the minors.Seems there was way too much panty-wringing about him to bail on him for Pagan..
It’s all but official. Cody gone. I will miss him and will — like Torres and Ramirez — hold a special place for him in my SFG heart. They say he was pretty disappointed. Well, from what I gather he insisted on 2 years. It’s a business, girls.
Yeah with you Pawlie…….Without Torres ,RAMI
I liked Cody too (I was a big, big supporter of him coming to the Giants when the G-Men claimed him off waivers – probably because he was on my fantasy league team back then (grin) and many here thought big deal . . . but I and a couple of others thought he could be a spark). In any event, things didn’t work out and as you said Pawlie, it is a business. Nevertheless, Torres and Ross were catalysts for the Giants in 2010 and will always be special in everyone’s heart here.
Mike:
Giants Acquire Pagan From Mets For Torres, Ramirez
By Luke Adams [December 7, 2011 at 12:35pm CST]
The Giants and Mets have agreed on a deal that will send Andres Torres and Ramon Ramirez to New York and Angel Pagan to San Francisco, tweets Joel Sherman of the New York Post. The Giants will also receive a player to be named later or cash, according to a team release. The deal was announced by both clubs today.
Way to stick it to Twin, Chucky.
Right. I’d hate to be thought of as a liar out here in cyberspace.
It would totally in character for Chuck to make that up as a way of dissing my opinion of the trade ( that we really only got a PTBNL later for Torres and Ramirez.) But as I noted below, it also confirms the Mets wanted Pagan OUT- Sherman notes:
“Mets badly wanted to upgrade defense in CF and Torres is far, far superior to Pagan”
And also, simply “Pagan must be relaced”..
In this forum, defense doesn’t seem to matter- unless it’s Mario..
That’s MLB Trade rumors
Stick it? I asked for something more than what he provided earlier. And I was deligthed to see it as confirms a couple things- the Mets were dying to off Pagan, and we get more than Room B was crowing about.
I’m just as delighted that Torres is gone Twin.The Mets will regret this trade unless Ramirez pans out.They only made the trade cause Giants included him.For Met fans Ramon better be awesome cause Torres will not be.
Sure, dude. Their new starting CFer and lead off man was a throw in. Look, why don’t you stand by the phone for word on our new second baseman- Brett Pill..
No, it says no such thing.
The trade could go either way, good for both, bad for both or great for 1/no good for the other. Trades are great: fresh starts for the players, new hope and a lot of rope from the fans…it’s all good. I wish Torres well but i wish Pagan MORE well. Funny, no one seems to give a shit that Ramirez is gone. He had his moments….
I’ve rewritten or self-edited nearly all my posts to include Ramirez, calling him a quiet hand. He was almost anonymous. But without him, no WS in ’10. Same with 24 other names that we could recite, more than 24 actually.
I told a Mets fan: look even if Torres doesn’t make it for you guys, you’ll like Ramirez (of course he could tank too). When Warner Wolf talked about the trade on Imus this morning, he mentioned Ramon (pronounced with a long A by him) as an afterthought. BTW, the Imus show is lousy, so my apologies. BTW again, they had no respect for what Torres could do and seemed to hate the trade — but the Mets are in low regard — for now — down there. And will be until Wilpon unloads the team, if he ever does.